So I would like opinions. Do revanents fit into Dark Sun? Should I ease up and let him play one? Or is playing a revanent very anti-thematic to the setting?
I suggest you talk with the player and figure out if it were his intentions all along to simply negate the survival aspect of the game by playing as an undead character, if that is the case, maybe you're both looking for something different from the game?
If you can survive the desert, the city'll get you.
Mechanically speaking, I don't think it will ruin the game to allow this player his choice. He may gain immunity to certain environmental factors, but his party will not. His nature will likely create issues for the party, as well. I'm not one for balancing mechanics with RP, but how many caravanserai are going to welcome the undead guy? Real-world desert garb is fairly concealing, but not every guard is going to let you enter with covered visage.
If the revenant is tied to a SK, do the Templars and servants of this SK know of it? Is the revenant recognized? Will it be allowed entrance to the SK's city or the like? Is it an agent or thrall of this SK? How would the other players feel about this?
There are some potential issues with this PC, but I don't think the major issues are his clever dodging of Athas' environmental hazards. Those challenges are as much RP as mechanical, and can be balanced, in my mind, with the many drawbacks to being a walking corpse. The struggle to survive will still be adequately felt by the living members of the party. That said, I'd let this player and the others know that having a Revenant in the group will create trouble before the campaign begins. It's possible that some or all of the players may not want these types of issues in their adventures.
(Personally, if I were to play a Revenant in DS, I'd play a poor soul who wandered astray in the desert and didn't stop walking even after life left me. There is some definite potential in such a character.)
A cloak and veil would probably work, but there would always be the risk of exposure. If he was found out, he would be taken care of by the templars. Intelligent undead are assuredly a threat to their power, because it implies rival magical forces at work. Their first thought would be 'assassin.'
If he wants to play a Templar, how about a former Templar of one of the SK that was entombed alive in some outpost or hidden temple. When an earthquake or rockslide finally freed him, he makes his way back to his city. What felt like maybe a year since he died, was in fact a century. This coming realization could be a big plot hook. Why after all these years has so little changed? The SK's can't be mere mortals if they havent died yet of old age. Perhaps the slaying of Kalak, his former master, is what awakened him from death.
I like the idea of the sorcerer-king created revenant... does he/she still work for the SK or has he/she fulfilled the debt? Which SK?
I suppose another issue for the revenant could be the reaction of other creature (like kanks, erdlu) and even other PC races like thri-kreen or halflings who might find the revenant much more horrid that he/she really is... what about the Veiled alliance?
A lot of interesting options here... of course, this character shouldn't necessarily be the focus of the whole campaign (unless the other 4 PCs are okay with that!)... but it is an interesting idea...
I was wondering about the vampire bloodline option ... something "neat" about a defiler who can suck the health out of an enemy... but also I was torn as to if it fit in with the theme of Athas...
good luck and keep us posted!
Josh
If the premise is that the PC is part of a group of such creatures deliberately created by a sorcerer-king, it becomes tougher, just as the dray might be known to be the minions of Dregoth. I prefer them to be accidental and rare.
What if Revanents are the remnants of defiling? Given the new mechanics for defiling, they may be the result of an arcanist draining his allies dry. Their encounter power even suggests a defiling-based attack.
What if Revanents are the remnants of defiling? Given the new mechanics for defiling, they may be the result of an arcanist draining his allies dry. Their encounter power even suggests a defiling-based attack.
I kind of like this idea. There were special undead that were the product of death by defilement. Any info on undead created through defilement in the DSCC?
I kind of like this idea. There were special undead that were the product of death by defilement. Any info on undead created through defilement in the DSCC?
Not that I remember, but it would be easy to houserule in.
I say let him play a revenant and ban the feat. Rememeber that the apearance of revenants is pure fluff-you can easily change it to make it as easy or hard for him to "pass" as you like. Perhaps he looks mostly like a mortal except for being a bit paler and having strange eyes, those sorts of quirks are easily explained away. If you don't want to change the fluff, he can take the bluff skill and try to disguise himself or fast-talk his way in.
Sun sickness is a disease, and even if you don't need food or water Revenants, Warforged, Shardminds and the like still aren't immune to disease.
I'd go this route, and say that survival days for such characters are (very expensive) oils/lotions/etc that they still need to apply to stop damage from the relentless heat and other oppressive conditions. If they don't they suffer from the same disease as everyone else, albeit not due to food/water.
You could perhaps give them a +2 circumstance/racial bonus on the endurance check, due to not becoming hungry/thirsty.
I'd be so harsh a DM as to make their choice of race a heavy burden. Sure, you can avoid starvation and the need to sleep in the middle of the desert. But you can still be affected by sun sickness, and your body will deteriorate just as badly. Instead of starving to death, you rot to death.
Sure, you may not need to sleep or eat, but the rest of your party does, and you need to stick with them for protection. All you've done is given yourself permanent guard duty while the rest of the party sleeps.
And then there is the issue of going anywhere civilised. Have to mask the appearance and the smell while not drawing attention to yourself. If just one person notices that you are a walking corpse then all hell will break loose. How long until the party as a whole is noticed and barred entry based on stories of the evil undead practices they've apparently been a part of?
This applies Athasian environmental harshness without trivializing the racial benefit they "paid" for.
For my shardmind (and other characters that don't need to eat or drink) I just extended the time for which a survival day covers them (since they are not ONLY water and rations) to something like 48 or 72 hours.
This applies Athasian environmental harshness without trivializing the racial benefit they "paid" for.
I am not willing to have any character that needs less than one survival day per day. Even thri-kreen, who in 2e dark sun needed to drink about 1/7th what a human needs to drink (IE: they only needed to drink once per week), still need 1 survival day per day in 4e dark sun. But many of the posts in this thread have convinced me that a revanent should still be able to work...
I kind of like this idea. There were special undead that were the product of death by defilement. Any info on undead created through defilement in the DSCC?
Defilers could turn into Ashen: in game terms, the PCs kill an arcane power user who's using arcane defiling (or its monster stat block equivalent, like any number of powers that the Bhrog Renegade has, for example), and the subsequent round (or way later, for plot purposes) he rises as an undead whose stat block powers have been written to suggest they all use defiling.
It has been suggested the same can happen to a PC:
Show
I'd say one could devise a mechanic - a disease is a good one - that says the more you defile the more chance you got of this corruption, the end result being upon death in combat you turn into an Ashen on you next turn, and the other PCs got to destroy you before they can raise your body.
Ooooh... purrrfect. I hadn't though of the consequences, but rising as an Ashen on the next turn will fit perfectly. Thanks for the last piece of the puzzle Penn.
Here's my idea: I was planning on keeping a running total (in secret, behind my DM screen) of the number of times each player defiles. Then, if the defiler is dying, Athas makes an attack vs the characters Fortitude as such:
Trigger: The start of the arcane caster's turn that has negative hit points.
Attack: +x vs Fortitude
Special: x is the number of times the character has defiled since the last time it was raised as an Ashen.
Hit: The character rises as an Ashen and cannot be healed (the character still rolls Death saves as normal and can die permenantly). The Ashen gains temporary hit points equal to the character's healing surge value. During each of its turns, it attacks any living creatures (does not distinguish between allies or enemies) using the caster's Arcane at-will attacks, moving and using minor actions as necessary. For all of these attacks, roll two attack dice and choose the highest roll: the attack is consdered to be arcane defiling. Once the Ashen has lost all of its temporary hit points, the character falls prone and can be healed again as normal.
I am not willing to have any character that needs less than one survival day per day. Even thri-kreen, who in 2e dark sun needed to drink about 1/7th what a human needs to drink (IE: they only needed to drink once per week), still need 1 survival day per day in 4e dark sun.
In that case, simply decrease the cost (and weight?) of "bought" survival days, but make no such distinction for "found" survival days.
Or go with the racial bonus to Endurance vs. Sun Sickness.
Or both.
he would be unable to pass for a living when not supplied (not having used survival day)
so if not using survival days anybody would see he is an undead abomination
Problem is an undead comes back for a reason. If you can fit that reason into the campaign all power to you.
If he/she needs to fulfil his/her reasons for 'coming back' then there needs to be obstacles in the way. He/she also needs some checks/balances so that he is appropriate for Athas.
Not needing to eat/drink/use sun block is a Neddy No No. Being undead he/she should have an appropriate weakness: perhaps the light of moon has the same effect as the sun has on living beings.
The bottom line is that if he/she wants to play a wronged guy coming back from the dead the avenge x, y and z more power to them: if they just want to bypass the environmental effects of Athas I would tell him/her to shove it up his/her arse and stop being a douche.
There are loads of fine reasons for coming back as an undead: by passing Athas's environment is not one of them.
a Revanent PC might require some sort of "magical component" diet to ease the pressures of the noon-day sun. Something like Riastlin's bitter tea concoction might be suitable.
The total cost of the "survival day" might be 4gp (slightly cheaper) but this is offset by the fact that the survival day is harder to come by, but available enough that it will be available somewhere in every city.
The exact details can be left to a DM/PC...
The total cost of the "survival day" might be 4gp (slightly cheaper) but this is offset by the fact that the survival day is harder to come by, but available enough that it will be available somewhere in every city.
I'd probably just leave it at 5gp to reflect the fact that while he's buying less (in quantity), the extra cost reflects the rarity of the item and additional markup charged by dune traders.
I'd probably just leave it at 5gp to reflect the fact that while he's buying less (in quantity), the extra cost reflects the rarity of the item and additional markup charged by dune traders.
^ this.
While I wouldn't let the character "get out" of the survival day requirement/sun sickness... as others have posted, oils, herbs, special clothing etc, water, to keep him from desiccating and suffering the same effects as anyone else (i mean he might not actually "die", but having your skin split and your organs fall out half way to Glug is going to suck...) or heck citronella to keep the flies away (and still probably would require constant vigilance on the maggot front!).
I also wouldn't PUNISH them by making it cost MORE.
I also don't really think anyone on athas gives to bits if you are undead, sunwarped, monsterous, or whatever... as long as you are willing to do business and not eat people randomly (in some cases that is even tolerated, halflings for example).
I see no reason why they wouldn't let the character into the city.
I mean the gate guards are NOT the bloody TSA, and if they were going to start randomly harassing and detaining suspicious individuals, they would START with the elves, not your PC.
Though if he ran skipping through the streets singing a song about being an undead abomination...
...people would probably just figure he'd gotten to much sun and ignore him, or think he was a bard that had too much to drink and keep their distance... unless he was super annoying... then they might try to put a dagger in him to make him shut his face.
Fact is, the Athasian population have never had a bigoted god like Pelor to teach them to hate undead or even to care enough to notice that something is undead, if you aren't messing with them and they aren't messing with you (because they want to rob you or they want to make you a slave or some other reason that has nothing to do with creature type), why does it matter? why should they care?
I also don't really think anyone on athas gives to bits if you are undead, sunwarped, monsterous, or whatever... as long as you are willing to do business and not eat people randomly (in some cases that is even tolerated, halflings for example).
I see no reason why they wouldn't let the character into the city.
I mean the gate guards are NOT the bloody TSA, and if they were going to start randomly harassing and detaining suspicious individuals, they would START with the elves, not your PC.
Though if he ran skipping through the streets singing a song about being an undead abomination...
...people would probably just figure he'd gotten to much sun and ignore him, or think he was a bard that had too much to drink and keep their distance... unless he was super annoying... then they might try to put a dagger in him to make him shut his face.
Fact is, the Athasian population have never had a bigoted god like Pelor to teach them to hate undead or even to care enough to notice that something is undead, if you aren't messing with them and they aren't messing with you (because they want to rob you or they want to make you a slave or some other reason that has nothing to do with creature type), why does it matter? why should they care?
I really, really, really, really, really, don't agree with this part of your post. Athas is far more bigoted than nearly any other D&D setting in existence. In most settings, arcane magic users are treated the same as any other adventurer. On Athas they are usually lynched, unless they have the protection and blessings of a Sorcerer King, and even then, in some city states that is not enough. Elves, in most settings, can set up shop in the same place as everyone else. On Athas there are numerous city states that don't allow elves into the market, or at the very least to sell wares in the market, thus forcing elves to set up "elven markets." Dark Sun is one of the few settings with racial slums (again, elven markets). Dark Sun is one of the few settings with races entirely created via forced breeding in captivity. Dark Sun's history is a history of race based genocidal warfare, and the people who perpetrated that warfare are the people still in power. Does Dark Sun have pelor to tell them that undead are evil? No. And on Athas, most people probably don't care about evil one way or the other. It does, however, have powerful paranoid racist immortals running the city states. Letting oddities into the city states, especially when those oddities are normally as dangerous as sentient undead, and likely to be the creation of an enemy sent to harm the local sorcerer king, is not likely to happen.
In any case, me and my player have worked it out. He will be playing a revenant after-all. Give me a few hours (or a couple days, depending) and I will post the alternative to sun sickness that he will be using (sun rot).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokushinbutsu
Many ideas here for a Revenant who might need to constantly prepare or tend to his physical state to keep the decomposition process at bay. Or maybe they engaged in self-mummification themselves in some sort of short-sighted spiritual quest, and ended up an undead. Maybe there is an entire monastery of monks engaging in this practice hidden in the Ringing Mountains. When one of their members successfully completes the transition to undeath, they are seen as spiritually superior or as having attained some sort of enlightenment. They would also have the capacity to stick around and teach many generations of followers the psionic-martial-arts.
Revenants in Dark Sun
- The Death’s Blessing feat is not available.
- A revenant’s consciousness and sentience directly correspond to their bodily decomposition. If their body decomposes too much they turn into a mindless automaton that seeks the destruction of all life. In their natural state revenants appear the way they did in life, except that their skin is unnaturally dry. Most non-player-characters will assume that the revenant is simply a dehydrated mortal.
- In order to maintain their body they must hydrate it, and protect their flesh. This means that they must drink water, eat, and use salves to protect their skin from the sun, just like normal mortals; revenants use the survival days’ mechanics. However, they do not suffer from sun sickness. Instead, they suffer from sun rot. Mechanically sun rot is identical to sun sickness, except that it uses the following disease progression track:
The target is cured < Initial Effect: The target begins to decompose, and looks like a living human suffering from a disease such as leprosy. The target loses one haling surge or hit points equal to the target’s surge value. The healing surge or hit points cannot be regained until the target is cured. <> The target reaches a state of full decomposition, and looks much like a zombie; its bones protrude out of putrid flesh. The target and any allies in its presence take a -5 penalty to all Diplomacy skill checks, and at the Dungeon Master’s discretion non-player-characters may attack the revenant and any allies in its presence on sight. > Final State: The target becomes a mindless undead under the control of the Dungeon Master, and attacks the closest living creature.
Also i REALLY wouldn't call the hatred of arcane casters "bigotry"; to me an Athasian hating defilers is like a Jew hating Germans in the 1940s.
I wasn't trying to say there was no racism in Dark Sun ever (obviously Rajatt and his cleansing wars were a very "special" time), and certainly everyone distrusts elves, but everything printed to date points to them deserving that mistrust, in the same way that everyone thinks defilers wrecked the planet, and defilers just go along continuing to turn the ground to ash at their feet, everyone things elves are thieves and liars and the elves just go on stealing and being duplicitous.
But, and 4e says this straight up on page 24... "The typical city dweller rarely gives a second glance to fantastic or monstrous individuals as long as they seem willing to trade or talk instead of fight an d they don't act in a threatening manner."
So you won't find rampant racism in the slave pits, in the markets, or in the stands of the gladiatorial arena... you might find it to some degree amongst some nobles, SKs, templars, or certain tribes in the desert, but the vast majority of people don't care... at all.
In general most undead do not associate with the living except in rare occasions such as the Valley of Dust and Fire. A revenant would be an obvious special case, especially if it is fully undead. Some undead, like the kaisharga, appear as gaunt humanoids. Others, like the t'liz, hide their undeath with ointments to appear to appear less deteriorated and hide their defiling nature. Others, like thinking zombies, do not care what they look like. All, though, are intelligent and do not randomly attack creatures and would be dealt with as intelligent creatures as long as they follow the same rules as everyone else.
As a person who is playing a Revenant in Dark Sun, here are some things to consider.
Death's Blessing means the Revenant does not need to eat, drink, or breathe, and is no longer considered a living creature. This does not confer an immunity to Sun Sickness, which is a disease. The Paragon feat Resilience of Death renders a revenant immune to disease.
So, with all that in mind, the exact nature of the benefit Death's Blessing alone provides should be something you and the player discuss.
Similarly, he may have to expend survival days to keep himself from decomposing in the sun.
I'm with you on this, and use the sun sickness rules for aspectes of decomposition and mummification.
A survival day for the revenant would be herbs and balms to prevent decomposition and you could have them follow most of the rules with modification.
As to RP aspects, if he's an agent of the SK, he'd have those priviledge and consequences like a templar. Outside of that he'd be shunned, feared, etc. like any defiler or undead.
In short, though, they aren't corpses that need to be preserved somehow. It's also a little counterintuitive to require them to spend survival days to keep from falling apart once they become full undead (Death's Blessing) unless you do the same for other undead in the Dark Sun world. Which you probably don't! Similarly, while they do look creepy, they don't look like rotting corpses.
Revenants work fine in Dark Sun. A character can't survive by himself in such a brutal world. Even if he isn't in danger of dying of thirst himself, he has to watch his companions waste away around him, knowing that if they die, his chances of survival are slim to none. Chances are, he'll have to take the lead in trying to save them, since he may be the only one with the strength to do much. And, as others have said, it's not like he's immune to sun sickness and other threats out there (prior to taking a paragon feat, anyway).
Death's Blessing protects against starvation, thirst, and suffocation, but not disease. So, if you really want every character to have to buy survival days, ban the feat, or--in my opinion--cowboy up and try to work with your player's to facilitate the character they want to play--you know don't disable and discourage a player from the get go simply because they found a race that may be beneficial in the short run. A Revenant's feat will only be a factor at the lower level's, once players get to higher tiers survival days are easily accessible due to the amount of money characters have.
On the point of npc reaction to Revenants it depends entirely on the background of the race as given by the DM--if Revenants are commonly known as an arcane creature--or defiled creature most of the denizens of Athas would fear and hate them. If they had any other background they would meet with a very minimal resistance in profitable activity such as work and trade. As far as city entrance goes the guards would likely be suspicious and require some monetary reassurance that the Revenant wouldn't cause trouble and then back down--the same could be said for all strange travelers though.