www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
I'm expecting that he'll be taking questions about Dark Sun (and his novel, corsair).
1. Will halfgiants be excluded from 4e DS?
2. Will all core races have a way to be fit into the setting, possibly as a "new race" version?
3. Will we see the return of the nightmare beast?
4. Will dragon/avangion/elemental be exluded as epic destines?
5. How many new athasian builds might we be able to look forward to for each core class?
6. Will we be seeing more darksun flavored material in later core products, such as adventurers vaults, power books, dragon and dungeon magazines?
7. Will mutations be a bit more commonly seen in 4e?
8. Will darksun handle the enchant magic item ritual any different than its core origin?
9. Will the 4e campaign book include any info on the jagged cliffs, deadlands and other parts of athas, or is it going to be soley focused on the tablelands?
Those are the questions that I'v had for some time now.
What classes can we expect to see in the campaign guide:
The short answer is no new classes…..Gladiators are a Fighter Build
How do you make Thri-Kreen playabe in 4e?
We decided to drop the bite, treat two of your arms as smaller/weaker so you don't normally quad wield with them…and we decided to go with more upright/humanoid appearance from 3e's MM2 Thri-Kreen as opposed to the giant mantis look of old Dark Sun. We used the tech of the racial paragon paths to delay some of the abilities that would otherwise be hard to balance with other races. So, in short: They're nerfed as compared to 2e, bu tthey're a solid and balanced choice for 4e campaigns.
What can we expect from the Dark Sun character creation rules? Specifically will character made in this setting be compatible with other settings?
The answer….we think there's a real value to the Dark Sun DM in better porbability across settings. We want you to be abl eto drop core monsters in your Dark Sun games more easily and to be able to import Dark Sun characters into core games, if that's what you want to do. It was really tough tto do that back in 2e with the uber-ability scores and level bump and awesome wild talents. So we've retreated a bit from that, and set it up so that a 1st-level Dark Sun character is a great way to start your game, and about as good as other 1st level characters..We recommend the use of the Inherent Enhancement bonus touch on in DMG2.
Can you say if there will be any new weapons in the DS campaign guide?
Yes, we made sure to include a selection of the classic Dark Sun unique Weapons. We've got cahulaks, carrikals, gouges, and a couple of others…the thri-kreen chatkcha, the widows blade, the dragon's paw…it's a pretty good selection I think.
Can we we expect a Dragon King Epic Destiny, and if so, any hints on what it might entail?
Yes, we have a dragon king epic destiny. It's not quite as crunchy as the old Dragon Kings dragon rules were in that epic destinies really only offer about 4-5 distinct mechanical features, but it's a pretty good nod to the old material. Plus, NPC dragon kings aren't really bound by the same character advancement rules that PCs follow, so they're free to be their own thing.
How will Dark sun handle being forsaken by gods and the divine power source?
This is a place where the 4e rules really help us out…2e Dark Sun really suffered from a dearth of characters in the leader (healer) role…most elemental clerics were mediocre healers at best…(That's a 4e philosophy for handling NPCs at work.) With our understanding of character roles in 4e, there are other power sources that can step up and fill roles that in previous editions *had* to be filled by divine characters. So in 4e, you can have warlords and bards and ardents (well, you'll see them soon) anchoring your party in the leader role. With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.
Any insight into how Defiling will work in relation to Preserving?
We looked at this one long and hard, and here's what we came up with…Preserving is the defualt. If you can just cast a spell and don't say anything, you're assumed to preserve. However, all arcane characters have a new Defiling at-will power, which you can use when you use daily powers to seriously boost the effectiveness of your spell at the cost of hurting your allies (and killing plants, of course). We set in on dailies so it wouldn’t come up with every single spell you used…and we had to tie it in to some mechanical effect other than what is effectively a story penalty (killing plants). So all arcane characters have this temptation just hanging there for them, saying, C'mon you know you wanna… We think it makes defiling play like it reads in the books: you're tempted to do it when you think you need the power.
Does he plan to re-release some of the old Dark Sun adventures adapted for 4th ed?
No, we're not going to do that. We have a new adventure planned, and Ddi/Dungeon support, but we're not going to convert old material.
As the time-line moves along in DS, will the overall story differ from the prism pentad or will the historical events be largely unchanged?
We view this new edition of Dark Sun as being more of a world snapshot than the start of a big new story arc. We wanted to create a snapshot in which events of the Prism Pentad *could* take place, but didn't have to, if the DM wants to tell a different story from this starting point.
Spelljammer? Dare a boy dream….?
A couple of years ago I would have said no way. Now, I'm not so sure. We've got a few rumblings that might be coming around in the future..nothing coming up real soon, but…maybe.
I was really hoping he'd answer my question about what they were going to do to make monsters more nasty in Dark Sun.
With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.
!!!!!!!!!!
So are elemental 'clerics' just primal source classes?
With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.
!!!!!!!!!!
So are elemental 'clerics' just primal source classes?
I'd think they would be elemental source classes. Primal deals with the natural world, but DS clerics dealt with the elemental planes. It might end up like 4e eberron with no psionic support making sarlona nearly useless and requiring tons of homebrewed houseruling and reflavoring.
Which means its time to start. I'm personally not going to remove divine power, just reflavor it.
What bothered me was that Baker claims the gladiator build will be a fighter. I hope thats just a single class build and not limited to the fighter, because a gladiator never struck me as a defender type. A gladiator screams striker. So I hope we get mulitpul builds, spread out among different classes.
After all, anything can be a gladiator just like any divine class could be a templar. An interrogator templar wouldn't be the same as an instigator templar or a war bureau templar or a regulator templar.
I'm on a wait and see mode for the builds, but when it comes to divine power, I'm going to be working on that until the DS release. Elemental power, is, after all, a long, long way away and I'm not to excited about another sarlona situation.
How will Dark sun handle being forsaken by gods and the divine power source?With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.erdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:12px">
I like it.
Excluding the "Free city of Tyr", I really like and have a good feeling about the way Richard Baker is conducting DS 4e project.
I see that he is building the setting with the heart of a fan and not the mind of a businessman, wich is very good for us --- DS fans.
I really admire his ideas concerning a better explanation to the existence of the forest ringing mountains, and the cartography fix he made at the Dragon´s Bowl.
I also like that the gladiator as new fighter build (by the way, in my homebrew Ds 4e conversion I adopted the same solution, since it´s more logic).
The exclusion of the Divine source is an audacious move, but I see it with good eyes, as a proof that the designer really want to be loyal to the DS origins.
What I´m worried about is the Half-Giant. No clues about how the HG will be treated in 4e? No fan at the chat remenbered to ask this? What a pitty.
I was really hoping he'd answer my question about what they were going to do to make monsters more nasty in Dark Sun.
Given that they want to make things easier to import and export, the answer is that they won't. It will be more a point, in my opinion, of adventure design. Dark Sun adventures will just have zero easy difficulty encounters, and greater ratio of hard encounters to normal encounters. That would keep the carefully balanced "probality of sucess" equations intact while making it a more brutal setting.
So are elemental 'clerics' just primal source classes?
If you read the interview with James Wyatt that has been up for more than 4 months, it sounds like 4e shamans are meant to fill the role of 2e elemental clerics. In a way, yeah, primal class.
Given that they want to make things easier to import and export, the answer is that they won't. It will be more a point, in my opinion, of adventure design. Dark Sun adventures will just have zero easy difficulty encounters, and greater ratio of hard encounters to normal encounters. That would keep the carefully balanced "probality of sucess" equations intact while making it a more brutal setting.
For my money it isn't "level 5 monsters" that make Dark Sun such a harsh world. Its the fact your friendly baker can and will turn you in if he suspects you of being an arcanist. It won't matter you're a preserver, you're an evil wizard and so you deserve to die. The friendly dung-seller will also turn you in to the noble family he's on the pay for if it suits his purposes as well. In that case it won't be because you've broken the law, but the noble family can somehow profit from your misfortune, so either they'll make something up or they'll blackmail you with something you really do want kept hidden (perhaps you have an elf fetish).
The environment itself is a harsh place, without any monsters. But the monsters themselves aren't safely hidden away from you in low levels. You can't stay close to a city and kill bunnies until you level up, anakore and mekillots will be a real danger from day 1 if you're not careful.
Finally there's not a lot of magical weapons and lying around and posessing any of them can be grounds for a hanging. So you don't get the +1s you would normally expect in a campaign.
That's how I add harshness to Dark Sun anyway.
So are elemental 'clerics' just primal source classes?
If you read the interview with James Wyatt that has been up for more than 4 months, it sounds like 4e shamans are meant to fill the role of 2e elemental clerics. In a way, yeah, primal class.
Would you mind linking that interview?
Finally there's not a lot of magical weapons and lying around and posessing any of them can be grounds for a hanging. So you don't get the +1s you would normally expect in a campaign.
Yes you will. You just won't get them from magic items. Dark Sun suggests you use the low magic item rules from the DMG 2, in which the base (and mathematically required) bonuses from magic weapons, neck slot items, and armor, are built into your character. What you won't get is a lot of extra powers granted by your magic items...
But I agree with your basic point.
Would you mind linking that interview?
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
Would you mind linking that interview?
www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4...
I just threw up in my mouth, alittle, at the thought of a shaman templar.
I'm also happy they chose the "temptation" route with defiling; I think it lends the right feel. Will it be a bonus at will power or a required one? The latter option, though it might sound crazy, might emphasize that arcane lore is difficult to come by.
On the Inherent Enhancement bonus from DMG2, I don't know it in detail. Is its suggested use supposed to imply the traditional dearth of metal and magic items, or something else?
On the Inherent Enhancement bonus from DMG2, I don't know it in detail. Is its suggested use supposed to imply the traditional dearth of metal and magic items, or something else?
Mechanically, 4th ed requires you to have a +X to attack depending on your level. At level 1 and 2, you can reasonably fight with no enhancement bonus. However as you increase in levels, in order for you to be able to fight against "appropriate level monsters" you're required to have the expected enhancement bonus (whether that's +1, +2, +3, etc).
In a normal game of D&D you get that enhancement bonus from magical weapons. In a magic-light setting its expected you won't get as many magical items, and so you simply get a straight "+2" added to your attack rolls simply because you're of an appropriate level.
I actually like the "inherent bonus" system as its called. Some pansy Toril so-called fighter is powerful because he has a fancy +5 weapon. But Athasians are powerful because they've survived long enough to get better at fighting and don't need no magic weapons to go toe to toe with the Toril pansy.
In other words, Athasians are more powerful because they've grown up in Athas.
Instead of getting the inherent +1 enhancement bonus at level X, each player gets to choose 2 ability scores and applies +2 to that ability score.
In effect, characters would get +1 to most of the same areas that benefit from enhancement bonuses. It would be slightly better than +1 enhancement in the sense that hit points might go up, and effects that are influenced by unmodified ability scores would be increased. The downside, is that characters don't get the enhancement bonus everywhere. This will be more apparent at high levels.
So that macho Half-Giant level 30 fighter, who put +2 STR and +2 CON at each level, will be insanely strong and hit pointy... but since the HG never upped a will or reflex ability, Will defense and Reflex defense will be a huge weakness to the HG. Enter a mind flayer with mind domination... yummy...
How will Dark sun handle being forsaken by gods and the divine power source?
This is a place where the 4e rules really help us out…2e Dark Sun really suffered from a dearth of characters in the leader (healer) role…most elemental clerics were mediocre healers at best…(That's a 4e philosophy for handling NPCs at work.) With our understanding of character roles in 4e, there are other power sources that can step up and fill roles that in previous editions *had* to be filled by divine characters. So in 4e, you can have warlords and bards and ardents (well, you'll see them soon) anchoring your party in the leader role. With gods absent from the setting, it feels like the best implementation of the setting to remove the divine power source, and let people explore the alternatives.
For some reason this made me think of templars. The funny thing with templars is that they could be Cleric, Psion, Shaman, Sorecerer, Warden or Wizard ... depending on the interpretation of how the 'magiks' are transfered from sorcerer-king to envoy.
Ardents are Psion builds BTW ... from the 3.5E Archive:
The Mind's Eye - Expanded Classes, Part Four: Ardent, Divine Mind, Lurk, and Erudite (06/29/2007) ... (see Zealot)
Character Class: Ardent (05/09/2006) ... (see Mantle)
Another alternative, for those of us that like high ability scores, would be to hand out additional ability score upgrades. For example:
Instead of getting the inherent +1 enhancement bonus at level X, each player gets to choose 2 ability scores and applies +2 to that ability score.
In effect, characters would get +1 to most of the same areas that benefit from enhancement bonuses. It would be slightly better than +1 enhancement in the sense that hit points might go up, and effects that are influenced by unmodified ability scores would be increased. The downside, is that characters don't get the enhancement bonus everywhere. This will be more apparent at high levels.
So that macho Half-Giant level 30 fighter, who put +2 STR and +2 CON at each level, will be insanely strong and hit pointy... but since the HG never upped a will or reflex ability, Will defense and Reflex defense will be a huge weakness to the HG. Enter a mind flayer with mind domination... yummy...
Halfgiant will not be an offical pc race. I believe they cap medium creatures at just under 8 feet, 9 feet is considered large. I'v been unable to find a large creature at 8 feet (due to lack of looking) so I'm confident that halfgiant will be an monster race and goliath will be our substitution.
Considering the spin on athasian races, I think an athasian goliath could be very cool.
is was that what you meant?
and there is, of course, no reason to not use a goliath as a half-giant. as in reflavoring.
is was that what you meant?
Goliaths are nothing like halfgiants, unless being larger than humans is enough. Which, for me, it isn't.
Ok, let me get this straight. In 4th Ed. there's no way for a player to have an Ogre or Centaur as a character? (FYI, I’ve had players with both of them going back to 1st Ed., not at the same time mind you.)
Ok, let me get this straight. In 4th Ed. there's no way for a player to have an Ogre or Centaur as a character?
Not yet, at least. There are no existing rules - mind you, 4e has not been out all that long and have only developed race statistics for 2 or 3 dozen races, most of which are only available as monster races.
There might be some house rules somewhere to develop your own Centaur/Ogre player races, if not, they would be rather simple to create - but I don't know how difficult it will be to role-play and DM a large PC. A manual from WotC to customize DnD with your own house rules would be awesome.
Halfgiant will not be an offical pc race.
That's not confirmed yet... Half Giants were mentioned in the Eberron campaign books, with Thri-Kreen. Using Goliaths for now is a fine alternative.
Except, like somebody else mentionned, goliath's stats don't match an half-giant's. (A bit like 3e's Psionic Handbook half-giant didn't match DS's half-giant.)
- Peter Schaefer's One Dark Night mini-campaign: community.wizards.com/domino/wiki/One_Da...
- Rodney Thompson's blog post on a Dark Sun one shot (without using the actual DS4e rules): community.wizards.com/wotc_rodney/blog/2...
From the first, it seems that Half-Giants are in. From the second, Goliaths can be used as stand-ins at this time.
Hope it helps,
G.
Or more likely, there might be Giants as monsters with Half-giants as grunts or whatever. So DMs can run them as NPCs, as well as to keep the Sorcerer-Kings' armies stocked with brutes. Regardless, I doubt they'd exclude Half-giants from the DSMM, even if only to give them a nod in the Giants section.
"'sup": Famous last words, when talking to a Half-giant.
Easy to remember, simple to use and allows large pc races.
Ok, let me get this straight. In 4th Ed. there's no way for a player to have an Ogre or Centaur as a character? (FYI, I’ve had players with both of them going back to 1st Ed., not at the same time mind you.)
Correct. so far, 4e does not support large pc races. Nothing leads to suggest this will change, although we can hope, but don't hold your breath. Simple answer to this, like always, is to houserule.
Just a couple of sources (from WotC people):
- Peter Schaefer's One Dark Night mini-campaign: community.wizards.com/domino/wiki/One_Da...
- Rodney Thompson's blog post on a Dark Sun one shot (without using the actual DS4e rules): community.wizards.com/wotc_rodney/blog/2...
From the first, it seems that Half-Giants are in. From the second, Goliaths can be used as stand-ins at this time.
Hope it helps,
G.
Problem is, that doesn't say whether they're using actually halfgiants or just goliaths called halfgiants. So far, everything leads one to believe they're goliaths, since halfgiants are large and DS will be known as the "reflavored races" setting. Dragonborn/dray for instance.
Athasian Elves are 7 feet tall, maybe they could double as Half-giants. Thri-kreen, too!
Or more likely, there might be Giants as monsters with Half-giants as grunts or whatever. So DMs can run them as NPCs, as well as to keep the Sorcerer-Kings' armies stocked with brutes. Regardless, I doubt they'd exclude Half-giants from the DSMM, even if only to give them a nod in the Giants section.
"'sup": Famous last words, when talking to a Half-giant.
Unlike halfgiants as pc races, there are no mechanical issues with halfgiants as monsters. So, its very likely that we will get two races of halfgiants. The full sized monsters and their stunted pc race cousins, goliaths.
Problem is, that doesn't say whether they're using actually halfgiants or just goliaths called halfgiants. So far, everything leads one to believe they're goliaths, since halfgiants are large and DS will be known as the "reflavored races" setting. Dragonborn/dray for instance.
The first source doesn't specify whether the HG are reflavored Goliaths or not, but in the second, Goliaths are used as replacement because the poster could not use any content from the actual DS books (as he was playing with non-WotC people). Goliaths would likely not be mentioned as stand-ins if that was the final choice.
So, it seems more likely to me that there will be a custom HG race (possibly featuring some power related to their imitative behavior or their large size) -- though it may well be a medium sized race: since there aren't any half-giants in 4e yet, it's impossible to say whether they will be large or not in the end. Also, as the post hereabove mentions, HG were already reduced to medium size in 3e (cutting them short by 3'-4') -- the DS4e developers seem to be quite faithful to the original, but it doesn't mean they have to put in a large-sized HG monster.
Actually, very little is known, except that HG will be an option (either a new one or an existing one reflavored).
G.
Might the rules to play large PC's come out this year? Someone within WotC had to think of that possibility?