As a favor for me and those that are on the fence, I ask that you sell it to us. Explain why we should go with DS.
I will say that I am prejudice against psionics, but that comes from bad experiences with it. I will grant this is a new edition of them and I haven't used 4th ed psionics yet so I am willing to give it a chance.
EDIT: I have read the primer on Athas, but I really didn't feel that gave me the fans perspective. That is the basis for this thread is the fan's thoughts.
If D&D settings Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk were described as inspired Tolkien, Moorcock, Lewis, and Robert Howard, Dark Sun should be described as inspired Howard, Burroughs, and Frank Herbert. Take Arrakis, drop in the populations of Barsoom and Hyborea, and take away all the hippie elements from every form of magic in the game. Wizards aren't simply performing stuff within (super)natural laws, they're breaking existance. Druids aren't tree-huggers, they're eco-terrorists. Templars aren't just paladins with a different name, they're the arcane and psionic empowered theocratic hit men of draconian (and draconic) dictators partly responsible for wrecking the world. Priests aren't clerics that pray a little bit for help, they're psychos who set themselves on fire, drown themselves, bury themselves alive, or jump off cliffs to get the elements to pay attention to them. Psions aren't crystal-waving, "mind-over-matter"-chanting wizard knock-offs, they're Bene Gesserits, Mentats, and Shaolin monks that came about as the result of the evolutionary arms race that is life on Athas.
It isn't just magic that the hippie elements are taken away from. Good aligned Elves will rob you blind if it will get their families some water. Halflings look at other races the way most starving people would look at talking animals: cute, but still on the menu if need be. Kings aren't kind and wise rulers, they're despots who keep the people under their thumb with a combination of emperor worship, bread and circuses, and slavery.
Although not a stated theme, Dark Sun also does a good job of carrying the idea that noone is perfect. The halfling elemental priest may be want to protect his people and save the planet, but he has no problem eating you and setting fire to your house to "purify" the world. A templar may slowly kill you for not affirming the authority of his king, but he's actually protecting the people of his city from the monsters in the wastes. A wizard who has trained himself not to devastate the land may be working to free the people from the tyrannical sorcerer-kings, but he'll do it even if it means having to kill them to save them. It isn't that everyone is evil, it's just that morals and ethics aren't treated as childishly as they are in some other settings (why were tieflings evil in previous editions? Because they had horns and hooves, and weren't satyrs, that's why).
I thought 3e psionics favored bean-counters way too much, and I almost screamed and pulled out other people's hair reading 2e's rules. 4e psionics are pretty simple, but still different enough from other classes that they have a neat feel. I was actually planning running a campaign allowing only martial classes and the psion (on vacation, half the group went home). At 1st level you only have a couple of power points to mess with, at higher levels, maybe a couple dozen if you take all the feats, a paragon path and epic destiny that get you more. Power points are basically encounter powers, but it honestly is easier to write them up as points then writing a bunch of notes in encounter powers saying "if you only use this encounter power and no others this encounter, do this; you can use this encounter power 2 or 3 times in an encounter, but this happens instead."
If you like any one of these, you'll like Dark Sun
- Science-fiction; a lot of themes are.
- Ancient Cultures: Dark Sun borrows from the ancient cultures from Earth such as the Romans and Aztecs.
- Understanding of Meta-Physics such as Pscionics (after reading 2e Pscionics rules(yuck), I didn't use Pscionics in my games. However, in other game settings with Pscionics (White Wolf and Cyberpunk 2020), I do allow and use Pscionics quite often).
- A break from the standard dungeon-crawl: Dark Sun's more about progressing your own character's ambitions than slaying Rust Monsters.
- A challenged; Athas is brutal. There's a good chance your character will die. However, if you're smart and clever, you might make it. If you think all Templars are humble civil servants, you're going to end up sold by one into slavery or the Arena.
- Deserts; That's one of the reasons I bought the box-set in the first place; I like deserts and the map was well drawn and made me feel I could go exploring in the Tyr Region.
- Power-Characters; some of my original gaming group liked Dark Sun because you started at 3rd level and were more powerful than in other games; that may or may not suit you.
- Plots and intrigue; everyone's scheming and trying to progress their own goals.
- The "evil" player character plot-line is possible. Templars and Defilers, as a theme, is an excellent start-character that can be evil. Player characters can follow evil-centric goals, either against or for existing evil NPCs. The worlds starts out where 'evil' has won, they control the cities, the magic and the wastelands. There are plenty of motivations for player characters to climb that ladder and gain power, influence and control.
- Character-centric campaigns are "do-it-yourself". Without Gods, other planes, or supernatural help, characters have to change the world themselves. The existing NPCs, especially the Sorcerer-Kings, have their own agendas that tend to diff from the players. They are devious, powerful and ruthless.
- One of the themes of the world is "survival". This means many things, especially the struggle for ever-day survival. It also means that combat and skill challenges are a struggle, rather than a simple obstacle with little-to-no consequences: Players have to be creative, have to manage resources, have to role-play successfully, and have to work together to survive. This extends into all aspects of the game: trading and selling, acquiring food, finding water, finding and keeping weapons, using magic, combat, skill challenges, government, etc... The intent is to keep players interested. They must stay engaged, or they might die.
- Enemies are likewise trying to survive. Other settings (like Eberron, Forgotten Realms) tend to be about player characters invading a dungeon, killing the monsters and stealing their stuff. In contrast, Dark Sun contains enemies that have every motivation that the players have. This "default" motivation can add flavour to encounters. For example, some monsters will be content to "kidnap" a single player (presumably for food) and then run away; or monsters might be interested in safeguarding a waterhole, and will allow players to run away.
- Exploration: the WotC staff have expressed their enthusiasm at the potential for exploration in this setting. If you check out some of the threads on the boards, you'll realize that the world is largely explored, with a plethora of locations, themes and plot-lines that players can explore. The plot-line can go anywhere... space, forgotten ruins, shadow worlds, underground, undead filled lands, zombies, fighting dragons... the possibilities are nearly limitless. Actually, one of the main themes will take the world back to its Green age... which can be like any of the other settings. This means that one can easily merge High Fantasy with this setting.
How much is psionics used? Would it be akin to magic in Eberron where it is everywhere and to common place to be special, or would it be more akin to magic in say Dragonlance, it's there but not nearly relied on unless in certain communities?
Sorry for all the questions, but I wasn't a big fan of Eberron and FR and I have never agreed....ever...and this seems like the setting for a Barbarian Gladiator outside a homebrew so I want to be fair you know?
Psionics isn't as common as arcane magic in Eberron, but it's still a part of daily life. In 2e, heroes started off with some sort of psionic power, the justification being "evolutionary arms race." 4e is kinda being a bit more scientific and egalitarian with it, with most of the psionic gifts being minor and unnoticable defences against minor and unnoticable attacks (in 2e, if the NPC didn't deserve a name, it didn't get wild talents, and if he did, the DM rolled for him as he would for a wild talent in other settings).
However, it is more common than in Dragonlance. Telepaths are used to communicate over long distances, herd animals are controlled through psionic disciplines, and the common fortune teller probably can tell you if you're going to have a good day or not. But, the common person isn't likely to see a Templar go all Scanners on a Veiled Alliance member except for a couple of times in his life, probably, and may only have a Templar do a Bene Gesserit voice on them once.
Barbarian gladiators are quite appropriate for Dark Sun. They're almost the Drizzt Do'Urdens of the setting.
Yes, but mine is not CG and trying to throw off the shackles of his CE race ;).
There are no meandering treks through the English countryside (not that there's anything wrong with that!), you're probably not going to save the world (it's pretty much beyond help at this point), and selfless heroics and gallant cavalry charges aren't very frequent.
For me anyway, it's more about the sand, grit, sweat and gore. A bleak post-apocalyptic world where there is no future, and heartless sorcerer-tyrants who casually stage mass executions are a welcome respite from the hazards of the wastelands.
Howard is a good inspiration, though I find him a bit upbeat for my version of Dark Sun. For me, Moorcock and especially Clark Ashton Smith are better, because while Conan's world is just beginning (it is prehistory), for the others (again, especially Smith) history is ending and nothing of man will continue.
DS doesn't have to be heartless and depressing, but it can be that way if you want and it won't seem out of place. On the other hand, if you want big dang heroes roaming the land setting things right (or at least killing the shoggoth and getting the girl), there's plenty of room for that, too.
It's a great setting, really.
How much is psionics used? Would it be akin to magic in Eberron where it is everywhere and to common place to be special, or would it be more akin to magic in say Dragonlance, it's there but not nearly relied on unless in certain communities?
If you're running the game, then it's how often you feel like. I, hated 2e psionics so I never used it. My games were just as fun because I kept the other aspects. In the official setting, EVERYONE had a random psionic talent. So it's like Eberron. However, you as a DM, can decide otherwise. If you want to remove psionics from you game, you can.
1. It is a dying world. Everyone sees that: there is only one metal mine, food and water is scarce, rainfalls happen maybe once a year. Yet almost no one cares about that: people fight for today's survival, not for better tomorrow, instead of making change, they thrive upon leftovers of better times. Sorcerer-kings wield immense power, yet they use it only for themselves, not caring about his subjects. Moreover, the treat them as tools, to be discarded or sacrificed if ultimate goal will require it. So instead of saving what was left, people waste it for petty struggles, ruining last chance to rebuild old world.
2. Shadow of past. Everywhere you look, there is an evidence Athas was once a splendid and wonderful world. Take a look upon a map itself, you'll see that seven cities are placed upon banks of once mighty river, flowing into the sea. People tend to ignore crumbling ruins, but they are still standing, guarding long forgotten borders, overseeing passes that lost it's importance to kingdoms, nobody remembers. think of those cut bridges, that are still swinging through air, but water underneath them disappeared long time ago. try imagine verdant forest, where is desert...
3. A change and mutation. Athas was once a world like Krynn or Abeir-Toril. Elves were noble, dwarves mined under mountains, unicorns roamed the forests, people was working in fields. Now it all changed: elves became a long-legged running bandits, that in no aspect resemble noble ancestors. Dwarves lost their beards and mines, became stubborn remnants of once proud race. What terrible had to happen to halfilings, that once a merry, friendly and peaceful race became feared savages that is "known" for practicing cannibalism. Each year deserts spits out dozen new races, which die out or gnaw upon leftovers of other races.
4. No certainty. While life in wildlands is dangerous and each day may be the last one, existence in a city is only a slight better. Sorcerer-kings wield total power and one can wake up as a noble, and go to sleep as a slave, if crosses ruler's path. Life is short and violent, you can never be sure, what will happen next.
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I agree with a TON of ideas on this thread about what Athas is - but for me, all this points to the opportunity for the players to stand out as true heroes.
Good people in a world that doesn't reward good actions - that makes for a complex character to me.
I'd love to see a Good aligned party truly try their utmost to rekindle the fire of the glorious past that was once Athas - even when there are no gods to support them - no people to trust or believe in them - no primal forces to succor them.
That is the Athas I see - and would enjoy.
Metals are so rare that other than nobles of the city states iron, gold, even bronze are rarely seen by common men.
Writing is forbidden by Sorcerer Kings.
Think Mad Max-Beyond Thunder Dome, Dune and all Greek stories set in arid lands.
Characters can search for metal treasures, search for the history or simply stand against the power of the sorcerer kings.
My previous group began their career at mid levels finding a cache of metal (old iron spikes, doors etc) in an ancient buried ruin. The group developed a level of responsibility and eventually left the city of Tye and started to setup their own city.
Its an awesome setting with an incredible depth. Races are new and have their own character. Its a whole new world which a DM can place anything under the sands, any history can be injected.
Castri (2 flint daggers)
Jarvix (bronze dagger)
Phye (iron longspear)
Kindrok (iron bastard sword)
Vinara (bronze sickle)
That's odd...
I'll be playing it as a group I'm being put in touch with are basically waiting to start a campaign in DS, as a setting I'm not so sure of it, but if it gets me playing D&D I'll be happy