Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap May 19, 2011 10:27:40	While it's still a ways off until my turn in our DM rotation, I'm starting to work up ideas for my next game, which will be based on Dark Sun.  Note that I say "based on". I am going to run in the Dark Sun world, but will be modifying it for specific flavor, example, I plan on having metal/steel weapons and such a bit more commonplace. Now, when I say commonplace, what I mean is they will be around and available for purchase through various merchant houses, though they will be very expensive.  The DSCG states that a longsword will still run the same cost and have the same stats as the PHB version, only it's made of something other then steel. What I want to do is either mark up those steel items by X% or, give out less treasure, thus making stone, bone, wood and other weapons more easily accessible/affordable.  I'm thinking giving out less treasure will be the far easier method here, as it does't require me to adjust any "other" supplies in the standard rulebooks, then simply saying bone, wood or stone weapons cost X% less then there steel counterparts. What I need some is assistance in is determining what "X" value is.  If I mark up steel items or mark down non-steel items...what is a good number to use?  ** If a steel longsword normally runs 15 gp, then how much would a wood or bone longsword run (assuming I am giving out less treasure) after marking it down by X percent?  **If I am not giving out less treasure, then what is a decent mark up for that steel longsword?  If the bone version of it runs 15gp, how much would the steel version run after X mark up? I'm thinking simply giving out less treasure and making non-steel/metal items cheaper is the easier option.  In giving out less treasure, I could just remove a parcel or two (maybe the two "richest" parcels) or simply change the gold to silver in some of those parcels.  Any thoughts and advice would be much welcomed.
#2 mach4 May 19, 2011 11:37:08	That X% is really up to you and how accessible you want steel to be in your campaign. Gauge 'when' you want your players to have difficult, average, and reasonable access to steel weapons based on how miserly or generous you are with treasure. If a few thousand ceramics of unspent wealth by 5th level is reasonable, but you still want the players to have difficult access to steel at that level, then a few thousand ceramics for a steel weapon is about right (presumably the players have spent at least some of their wealth by then and hence would not likely be able to afford it without liquidating everything they possess). If by tenth level, you expect your players to be able to easily afford enough in steel gear to outfit a skirmisher army, then gauge approximately how much they should have in pocket change by then. Regardless of affordability, in the end you control the merchant's stock. Should the players be able to afford steel weapons but you feel it would overpower them mechanically or ruin the game story-wise, simply find ways around allowing the players to purchase any (out of stock due to su-ot rampage at the Tyrian mines; the merchant's goods were confiscated by Nibenese templars for gawking at them; only steel available is heavily rusted and poor quality weapons sold by disreputable elves outside of town that are just as prone to breakage as anything else, etc). None of my group uses the parcel system since it plainly bites arse so you are on your own as to how to adjust things in regards to that particular system.
#3 khorne37 May 19, 2011 12:59:04	Giving out less items is fine but then you must use the bonus system. There are rules for this in the DSCG. I think you elminate the top and bottom item from the parcel list. I have prices based on the original DS 2E guide. metal cost and wt is 100% bone cost is 30% wt is 50% stone or obsidian  cost is 50% wt is 75% and wood cost is 10% and wt is 50%. I hope this helps.
#4 ultimate_cap May 19, 2011 15:29:26	Giving out less items is fine but then you must use the bonus system. There are rules for this in the DSCG. I think you elminate the top and bottom item from the parcel list. I have prices based on the original DS 2E guide. metal cost and wt is 100% bone cost is 30% wt is 50% stone or obsidian  cost is 50% wt is 75% and wood cost is 10% and wt is 50%. I hope this helps. Actually, that is interesting Khorne.  I vaugely recall that from back in the day.  Was there mechnical benifits to using bone over stone, for example?
#5 khorne37 May 19, 2011 15:34:30	Yes bone there was -1 to att and dam stone -2 wood -3
#6 ultimate_cap May 19, 2011 21:49:54	Yes bone there was -1 to att and dam stone -2 wood -3 Cool, helpful info, but I probably won't go with that.  The flavor is in the description, don't need that specific of mods to reflect it.  I will be playing with weapon breakage rules, so that's where steel will be better. So with those percentages in mind, I think I'll have non-metal weapons run around 20-30% less then steel.  Here's the weapon breakage rules I plan on implimenting... Weapon Breakage Instead of the rules proviced in the DSCG, use the following: All non-metal weapons have a chance to break every time you roll a natural 20 on an attack roll (this is taken from the original Dark Sun). If you roll a natural 20 on an attack roll, roll again (a breakage saving throw).  On a failed save, the weapon is "damaged".  A damaged weapon loses it's proficiency bonus, but you can still use powers that require a weapon.  The weapon can be repaired. If you roll a natural 20 again with a "damaged" weapon, roll another breakage saving throw.  Failing the saving throw indicates the weapon is now "broken" (shatters, etc) and cannot be repaired, it must be replaced. Note: If the weapon is masterwork, it will have a +2 on the breakage roll.  All magic weapons are considered masterwork. Question, is there anyone out there running in Darksun who is completely ignoring the rules for steel weapons and lack of metal?
#7 khorne37 May 20, 2011 12:04:36	I am ignoring metal weapons for the most part but when I use them I consider them +1 magic weapons all my other weapons are bone or obsidian. I also don't break my magic non metal weapons.
#8 ultimate_cap May 24, 2011 23:10:20	Hey Khorne, thanks for the replies...after considering your information, and reviewing the DSCG guide notes on ceramic coins, I'm thinking I will increase the cost of metal weapons (and armor) instead of lowering everything else that's non-metal. For the most part, I'll treat them as magic (parcel items) but I may throw them in now and again at a considerable mark up...maybe 4 or 5 x the cost at various merchant houses or the elvin black market(thus a steel longsword will now run 60 or 75 gp). I may even use a variation of your idea on some metal weapons being masterwork, and gaining a +1 to hit (but no damage bonus, no extra damage dice on a crit...it's, finely crafted, not magic), but those masterwork items would be close to the cost of a level 1 magic item (250 to 300 gold).
#9 Alphastream May 25, 2011 10:53:57	The problem with an "X" is two-fold. First, economically, if you use a typical treasure system they will be able to afford them fairly easily. Let's say a longsword costs 100g. Sure, that's pricey. But if it carries and advantage, PCs will want it, will save up money, and will get it. 100g is not that much. A good adventure will get you one. Very early on they will be able to get past the issue of X. Now, you can set X much higher, but if they can buy magic items then everything starts to conflict economically. The second problem is the flavor. What is the point of metal being rare? For me it is less about the metal and more about the other materials. The point of metal being rare is that everyone is using bone, wood, stone, and obsidian that they salvaged into weapons. It carries the post-apocalyptic theme. If I ask myself "when would you like PCs to no longer feel the post-apocalyptic setting?", my answer is "never". See, the idea of making metal more easily accessible and the idea of having a strong Dark Sun post-apocalyptic feel are at odds. In general, I like: Treasure is rare. Period. Getting anything is super-cool. 20gp? A fortune! Magic weapon in treasure? An incredible occurrence! A metal weapon? They might see it some day. Weapons break often. Reckless Breakage so it is more of a benefit than a penalty, plus foes carry weapons the party can use. Create rules for how PCs can use improvised weapons more easily and for how they can repair or fashion new weapons. Limit how many they can logically cart around by creating a need for the extra stuff they have... such as a village they protect and that needs any extra weapons they have. Ideally a PC has no more than 1-2 backup weapons. Award magic item properties as boons, training by NPCs, and slotless items that then apply to the weapon they wield. This way they can break a weapon, pick up a new one, and still apply something like "Flaming". If I did want more metal in my campaign, I would probably revamp the rules. Something like: Non-metal weapons always break when you roll a 1. Metal weapons can take two hits, and you can repair them during a short rest with a successful skill check. When you roll a 20, the weapon must make a save or break as above after damage is inflicted. When you roll a 19, you can make it into a crit by breaking the weapon. Metal weapons are triple the cost of a regular weapon. This makes them rare, valued, and available in most shops. Limit how many you provide in treasure so this does not become a source of cash. Or, include metal weapons instead of cash they would earn. A non-metal weapon does -1 damage, minimum of 1. This is a minor penalty, but something players of melee PCs will generally care about. It makes metal desirable. Again, my preference is low-treasure, but the above system with some tweaks would preserve the apocalyptic feel, make going through weapons commonplace, but still allow for metal to be more accessible.
#10 mach4 May 25, 2011 14:50:22	I would have a blast gaming at Alphastream's table, but again, to each their own. I'd up the costs commensurately so as to have metal weaponry be a source of portable mass currency to a degree (we do enforce some aspects of encumbrance and carting around wads of coinage just isn't reasonable or feasible). Exchanging that currency is a bit trickier however. We also have general penalties carried over from the old weapon types, along with breakable metal weapons (poor grade or very old steel) that is more accessible but still prone to breakage that can be refined at a high cost. Most of the first metal weapons the players tended to come across were salvaged pieces of scrap metal weaponry and armor that were refined and reforged. It lent more of a feel to the age of the SKs reign and the distance between the current time and the more prosperous Green Age (most steel weapons from that long ago would be useless by now and it brought to bare that shiny steel weapons later in ancient places were obviously enchanted).
#11 ultimate_cap May 25, 2011 16:37:42	I like your ideas Alphastream.  Thing is, I'm not going for a "purist" version of DarkSun, but something strongly based off of, or inspired by, Darksun.  I'm not so concerned about steel being less common as I am about running a game with a unique feel. I'd like to see the players have thier hands on steel weapons by 5th or 6th level, and I don't plan on running far past 10th (maybe topping out at 12th).  Just think the Darksun theme works better in the heroic tier. Also, whether or not steel will be available is up to me...all steel items will be considered "uncommon" so to speak. I am thinking about something similiar to your idea (alpha) of -1 damage for non-metal, but the mechanics would go the other way, steel weapons would have a +1 to hit (hmmm..may make that a +1 to damage instead...hmmmm). I do think I'll increase the cost mulitplier though, maybe up to x 7 or 8.  My treasure output will be low as well.
#12 Alphastream May 25, 2011 19:47:54	I totally understand. I would recommend damage over accuracy. Damage is far less important and doesn't mess with the math of the game.
#13 ultimate_cap May 26, 2011 9:48:25	I totally understand. I would recommend damage over accuracy. Damage is far less important and doesn't mess with the math of the game. Sounds good, and I tend to agree with you.  The current DM still has several sessions, but I'm working up my setting rules.  I may just post 'em out here when I'm ready, get some feedback, make sure there is nothing I missed that may be unbalancing or game-breaking.