Sewers in Dark Sun - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Sewers in Dark Sun

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
the1darklord
Jan 19, 2012 10:18:29 Hey Guys,

I'm just curious how Sewers should work in Dark Sun, as water is so valuable it seems silly that everyones bodily fluids would just be poured into the ground without any recycling taking place, has anyone had any thoughts regarding this?

I'm about to send my party into a sewer and I'd like some rationalisation into it. (I checked the Campaign setting book and it does mention sewers exist but gives no info re recycling and such)

Maybe some sort of slime monster could be used?

Cheers,

Daniel.
#2
khorne37
Jan 19, 2012 12:00:09 If sewers do exist they would be from a previous age. I think most people would be using thier waste in one way or another. Fert for crops or building material.
#3
DontEatRawHagis
Jan 19, 2012 14:19:20 For the most part I would go with there are sewers, and that they are disgusting places in under-city areas. Where do the sewers empty out? Probably settle as pools of excrement outside the city that farmers utilize.

There are mention of sewers in the DOS games apparently. In one of my player's backgrounds his character is based off of the game and apparently they escaped through Draj's sewers.
#4
waxwingslain
Jan 19, 2012 14:35:49 We (rightfully) make a big deal of the aridity of Athas, but don't go too far with it. I would say that Tyr's sewers are from a previous age and are probably bone-dry (so I would NOT put slimes in them; as a way to underscore the "different-ness" of Athas, make them full of dry silt and such).

But Nibenay, for example, is described as pretty jungle, with "steaming pools" surrounding the city (I imagine they're too foul to use for drinking water). It would make sense for Nibenay to have conventional (watery, foul) sewers. Likewise Gulg, which is in the middle of an actual forest. Balic would be dry and silty, probably Urik too...so on and so forth.
#5
crimsyn
Jan 23, 2012 0:31:53 Also, if you're in Tyr, most of the city had been built up on the ruins of old, wrecked parts of the city. You could just subsitute "sewers" for the tunnels of the Under-Tyr
#6
Ozmodious
Jan 23, 2012 13:49:24 Remember reading in a book or suppliment somewhere that people in the warrens just tossed their stuff into the streets... but can not imagine the Templars and Nobles doing this so there would have to be something.
#7
pavek
Jan 25, 2012 8:15:19 The cities themselves are not really that big and I can't imagine a public works department engineering sewers. If there is any disposal I would imagine buckets picked up by a force of slaves and trasported to the fields located outside of each city. Or maybe a few strategically placed cesspools occupied by Cistern Fiends to purify the waste. Maybe the citizenry use their own liquid waste for small gardens and set out the solid waste in the sun to dry and use as fuel.
#8
waxwingslain
Jan 25, 2012 9:56:26 Raam has 40,000 people in the city proper, not even counting the 40k living outside its walls. That's large enough to suggest a sewer system of some sort; smaller and much more primitive ancient cities had basic systems in the "real world":

www.sewerhistory.org/chronos/early_roots...

Especially considering that the population of Athas and its technology level was once MUCH higher, it makes sense that extensive sewer systems do exist, even if they are no longer fully used. In fact, it would be weirder if they didn't.
#9
pavek
Jan 25, 2012 17:42:52
waxwingslain,

While I absolutely agree with you about sewers being in place when cities are ancient or continually built on ruins I don't think they would remain viable since they rely on water to move waste. That's just not feasible on Athas (of course Nibenay could be the exception to this rule due to reasons cited above). The following points, from your link, seem to be the most likely scenarios in a world short on water.

                                             ___________________________________________________________________________

In Babylon, in some of the larger homes, people squatted over an opening in the floor of a small interior room. The wastes fell through the opening into a perforated cesspool located under the house. Those cesspools were often made of baked perforated clay rings -- ranging in size from 18" to 36" in diameter -- stacked atop each other. Smaller homes often had smaller cesspools (18" diameter); larger homes ... more people ... had larger diameter cesspools. The annular space (1') outside of the cesspools' walls were often filled with pieces of broken pottery to better the percolation rates.

In Egypt, certain more well-to-do homes had "toilets" -- the toilets used beds of sand to catch/contain the wastes. Servants cleaned the sand regularly.

Public latrines were used by many people, but for the most part, human wastes were thrown into the street.

Dejecti: Effusive Act: Damages to be paid by the throwers of wastes into the street -- if the person hit was injured (no damages paid for clothing), and only if the incident happened in daytime hours.

Roman courtesy also extended to visitors, and to people with emergencies:

Huge vases were provided for use at the edges of towns at entrance roads and at exit roads (i.e., early port-a-potties.)

Vendors worked the streets of Rome and other cities providing access to pottery jars (and "modesty capes") -- for a price.

Some cities/areas such as Mohenjo-daro, Babylon, Crete, Eshnunna, and Palestine had strict rules about sanitation. Others, such as Rome and the Greek cities, had fewer rules; the streets were, in large part, open collector sewers!

                                             ___________________________________________________________________________

I also can't see a SK not using every resource available to maintain their meager fertile lands, even if it is "human" waste, organic garbage, or even corpses.

If the question is, "Are there sewers and can I stock them wth monster?", that gets a big affirmative from me. Working sewers, however, would get a big NO. Again, simply for the fact that they rely on water to function.

As usual, things on your Athas may be different and I would definitely like to see more ideas about waste management.
#10
waxwingslain
Jan 25, 2012 18:01:01 Actually, I think we agree. I said earlier that sewers in many city-states were likely ancient and filled with dry silt accumulated over years of disuse--exceptions for Nibenay, Gulg, etc.
#11
waxwingslain
Jan 25, 2012 18:01:43 (and honestly, given Gulg's description, I wouldn't give it a sewer even though it might have the water to support one--I think of it as pretty much a big dirt-n-trees city)
#12
RalofTyr
Feb 01, 2012 15:46:22 If the cities on Athas are like Rome, there will be some areas were as much as 20 feet of debries has covered the ancient streets and the sewer-systems would have to be dug. In ancient Sumerian cities, it was the pigs that would go through the streets and eat the garbarage etc.
#13
BRJN
Feb 02, 2012 20:27:35 Put an oytugh in the (mostly-dry) sewer; it's self-mobile.

I could second the idea of having slaves - probably the old broken-down ones who can't work the fields any more - carry chamberpots from nobles' houses to dumping grounds just outside of town. The dried contents can be used as fertilizer or fuel.

In the slums, though, you better watch your step.
#14
dreamernaut
Feb 04, 2012 4:37:47 I tend to agree that any sewer system that exists, would likely be ancient ruins that have long gone out of use.

I could easily see a waste industry like premodern japan existing in Athas' City-States. Night-soil men going to homes and establishments and buying human waste for resale as fertilizer to farmers and as a cheap alternative fuel source instead of wood or charcoal. You could also have something like solar distilleries where urine is purified for industrial or agricultural use. You could have laws like in Edo (premodern Tokyo) which banned public urination (each neighborhood often had small cisterns for use by pedestrians) in a context of wasting a valuable commodity.

Any other waste I imagine would become the interests of junk-men and rag pickers who gather the refuse of the wealthy and sell them to the poor. At the same time food waste would likely get split between animals and slaves. I wouldn't even be surprised if the leftovers of better quality customarily go to feed the valued slaves servants, irdlu and kanks while the rest goes to the slave laborers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 the1darklord Jan 19, 2012 10:18:29	Hey Guys, I'm just curious how Sewers should work in Dark Sun, as water is so valuable it seems silly that everyones bodily fluids would just be poured into the ground without any recycling taking place, has anyone had any thoughts regarding this? I'm about to send my party into a sewer and I'd like some rationalisation into it. (I checked the Campaign setting book and it does mention sewers exist but gives no info re recycling and such) Maybe some sort of slime monster could be used? Cheers, Daniel.
#2 khorne37 Jan 19, 2012 12:00:09	If sewers do exist they would be from a previous age. I think most people would be using thier waste in one way or another. Fert for crops or building material.
#3 DontEatRawHagis Jan 19, 2012 14:19:20	For the most part I would go with there are sewers, and that they are disgusting places in under-city areas. Where do the sewers empty out? Probably settle as pools of excrement outside the city that farmers utilize. There are mention of sewers in the DOS games apparently. In one of my player's backgrounds his character is based off of the game and apparently they escaped through Draj's sewers.
#4 waxwingslain Jan 19, 2012 14:35:49	We (rightfully) make a big deal of the aridity of Athas, but don't go too far with it. I would say that Tyr's sewers are from a previous age and are probably bone-dry (so I would NOT put slimes in them; as a way to underscore the "different-ness" of Athas, make them full of dry silt and such). But Nibenay, for example, is described as pretty jungle, with "steaming pools" surrounding the city (I imagine they're too foul to use for drinking water). It would make sense for Nibenay to have conventional (watery, foul) sewers. Likewise Gulg, which is in the middle of an actual forest. Balic would be dry and silty, probably Urik too...so on and so forth.
#5 crimsyn Jan 23, 2012 0:31:53	Also, if you're in Tyr, most of the city had been built up on the ruins of old, wrecked parts of the city. You could just subsitute "sewers" for the tunnels of the Under-Tyr
#6 Ozmodious Jan 23, 2012 13:49:24	Remember reading in a book or suppliment somewhere that people in the warrens just tossed their stuff into the streets... but can not imagine the Templars and Nobles doing this so there would have to be something.
#7 pavek Jan 25, 2012 8:15:19	The cities themselves are not really that big and I can't imagine a public works department engineering sewers. If there is any disposal I would imagine buckets picked up by a force of slaves and trasported to the fields located outside of each city. Or maybe a few strategically placed cesspools occupied by Cistern Fiends to purify the waste. Maybe the citizenry use their own liquid waste for small gardens and set out the solid waste in the sun to dry and use as fuel.
#8 waxwingslain Jan 25, 2012 9:56:26	Raam has 40,000 people in the city proper, not even counting the 40k living outside its walls. That's large enough to suggest a sewer system of some sort; smaller and much more primitive ancient cities had basic systems in the "real world": www.sewerhistory.org/chronos/early_roots... Especially considering that the population of Athas and its technology level was once MUCH higher, it makes sense that extensive sewer systems do exist, even if they are no longer fully used. In fact, it would be weirder if they didn't.
#9 pavek Jan 25, 2012 17:42:52	waxwingslain, While I absolutely agree with you about sewers being in place when cities are ancient or continually built on ruins I don't think they would remain viable since they rely on water to move waste. That's just not feasible on Athas (of course Nibenay could be the exception to this rule due to reasons cited above). The following points, from your link, seem to be the most likely scenarios in a world short on water. ___________________________________________________________________________ In Babylon, in some of the larger homes, people squatted over an opening in the floor of a small interior room. The wastes fell through the opening into a perforated cesspool located under the house. Those cesspools were often made of baked perforated clay rings -- ranging in size from 18" to 36" in diameter -- stacked atop each other. Smaller homes often had smaller cesspools (18" diameter); larger homes ... more people ... had larger diameter cesspools. The annular space (1') outside of the cesspools' walls were often filled with pieces of broken pottery to better the percolation rates. In Egypt, certain more well-to-do homes had "toilets" -- the toilets used beds of sand to catch/contain the wastes. Servants cleaned the sand regularly. Public latrines were used by many people, but for the most part, human wastes were thrown into the street. Dejecti: Effusive Act: Damages to be paid by the throwers of wastes into the street -- if the person hit was injured (no damages paid for clothing), and only if the incident happened in daytime hours. Roman courtesy also extended to visitors, and to people with emergencies: Huge vases were provided for use at the edges of towns at entrance roads and at exit roads (i.e., early port-a-potties.) Vendors worked the streets of Rome and other cities providing access to pottery jars (and "modesty capes") -- for a price. Some cities/areas such as Mohenjo-daro, Babylon, Crete, Eshnunna, and Palestine had strict rules about sanitation. Others, such as Rome and the Greek cities, had fewer rules; the streets were, in large part, open collector sewers! ___________________________________________________________________________ I also can't see a SK not using every resource available to maintain their meager fertile lands, even if it is "human" waste, organic garbage, or even corpses. If the question is, "Are there sewers and can I stock them wth monster?", that gets a big affirmative from me. Working sewers, however, would get a big NO. Again, simply for the fact that they rely on water to function. As usual, things on your Athas may be different and I would definitely like to see more ideas about waste management.
#10 waxwingslain Jan 25, 2012 18:01:01	Actually, I think we agree. I said earlier that sewers in many city-states were likely ancient and filled with dry silt accumulated over years of disuse--exceptions for Nibenay, Gulg, etc.
#11 waxwingslain Jan 25, 2012 18:01:43	(and honestly, given Gulg's description, I wouldn't give it a sewer even though it might have the water to support one--I think of it as pretty much a big dirt-n-trees city)
#12 RalofTyr Feb 01, 2012 15:46:22	If the cities on Athas are like Rome, there will be some areas were as much as 20 feet of debries has covered the ancient streets and the sewer-systems would have to be dug. In ancient Sumerian cities, it was the pigs that would go through the streets and eat the garbarage etc.
#13 BRJN Feb 02, 2012 20:27:35	Put an oytugh in the (mostly-dry) sewer; it's self-mobile. I could second the idea of having slaves - probably the old broken-down ones who can't work the fields any more - carry chamberpots from nobles' houses to dumping grounds just outside of town. The dried contents can be used as fertilizer or fuel. In the slums, though, you better watch your step.
#14 dreamernaut Feb 04, 2012 4:37:47	I tend to agree that any sewer system that exists, would likely be ancient ruins that have long gone out of use. I could easily see a waste industry like premodern japan existing in Athas' City-States. Night-soil men going to homes and establishments and buying human waste for resale as fertilizer to farmers and as a cheap alternative fuel source instead of wood or charcoal. You could also have something like solar distilleries where urine is purified for industrial or agricultural use. You could have laws like in Edo (premodern Tokyo) which banned public urination (each neighborhood often had small cisterns for use by pedestrians) in a context of wasting a valuable commodity. Any other waste I imagine would become the interests of junk-men and rag pickers who gather the refuse of the wealthy and sell them to the poor. At the same time food waste would likely get split between animals and slaves. I wouldn't even be surprised if the leftovers of better quality customarily go to feed the valued slaves servants, irdlu and kanks while the rest goes to the slave laborers.