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Shadow Giants

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
ultimate_cap
Jun 01, 2011 14:23:54 Hey Gang,

All you Dark Sun fans out there, refresh my memory on the shadow giants. I recall the one being in the verdant passage series, the one that fought Rikus. Did they appear at any other time and was there ever anything revealed about thier past?

Reason I ask, I am wanting to know A) do they tie into the Grey/Shadowfell at all and B) can they be tied to Shades (the PC race)? Or can both Shade and Shadow Giants pasts/orgins be tied into the Grey?
#2
Sysane
Jun 01, 2011 14:35:18 The Shadow Giants were formally halflings that were loyal to Rajaat and banished to the Black by the Champions.
#3
mach4
Jun 01, 2011 15:37:11 As pointed out, they tie into the Black, not the Grey. A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. Personally, I would see the Black being closer to the Shadowfell than the Grey. Just seems strange that there are so many living things traipsing about a place that is supposed to be the afterlife. Pre-4e, we developed the Black to be slightly similar to what the Shadowfell is now.

Unless you want to alter them significantly, using Shadow Giants as a PC race by re-fluffing the Shade race might not be the way to go. They were 20' tall 2 dimensional beings give depth and size by brighter light sources. They were loyal to Rajaat and hence would have had access to a lot of information better left out of PC hands. They are healed by light (brighter light sources heal them more) and weakened in the absence of all light. Seems like a lot of re-fluffing needed to bring them in line to a PC race and in the end you just have a tall Shade race.

#4
dwaastoo
Jun 01, 2011 16:03:23

[...] A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. [...]

With the risk of sounding like an ultimate newbee... but what is this shadowfell that a see a lot of people writing about?

#5
khorne37
Jun 01, 2011 16:07:52 There are from what I can tell now five planes in D&D. Elemental Chaos the astral plane the material plane or actual world the fey wild where faires and what not live and the shadowfell where shadow magic heralds from as well as a bunch of undead.
#6
mach4
Jun 01, 2011 16:36:14 Shadowfell is what the Demi-plane of Shadow was in previous editions. It's pretty much a direct port chunked into the simplified cosmological setup that 4e uses over the previous Great Wheel multiverse. If you are fresh to D&D itself, no worries. There are several books out there available to learn more about other planes of existence.
#7
ultimate_cap
Jun 01, 2011 21:45:13
As pointed out, they tie into the Black, not the Grey. A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. Personally, I would see the Black being closer to the Shadowfell than the Grey. Just seems strange that there are so many living things traipsing about a place that is supposed to be the afterlife. Pre-4e, we developed the Black to be slightly similar to what the Shadowfell is now.

Unless you want to alter them significantly, using Shadow Giants as a PC race by re-fluffing the Shade race might not be the way to go. They were 20' tall 2 dimensional beings give depth and size by brighter light sources. They were loyal to Rajaat and hence would have had access to a lot of information better left out of PC hands. They are healed by light (brighter light sources heal them more) and weakened in the absence of all light. Seems like a lot of re-fluffing needed to bring them in line to a PC race and in the end you just have a tall Shade race.

Sysane, you know, I don't recall them being halfings, but that's awsome.

Now, Mach, I do not want to re-skin anything. Just trying to tie the Shade race into Darksun, and if the Shadowfell touches the setting "as is" that's fine...easy enough (and I can do pretty much anything I want to get it there).

It's more the tie-in the giants that I was interested in. If the Shadowfell is a better setting, that's great...I can use that and call it the Dark. If that's what they would have in common, I can run with that. Just wanting to make sure there were nothing more I was forgetting about the shadow giants.

I thought about shades having been "allies" so to speak, with the halflings long ago, and were supposed to become servants to Rajaat such as the fate that befell the halflings (only thier new form is now what we know as shades). Unlike the halflings/shadow giants, they were able to break away from Rajaat (and perhaps there is intense hatred between the two races now that can be traced back to that).

#8
naxel
Jun 02, 2011 6:13:51 I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma.

Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations
#9
ultimate_cap
Jun 02, 2011 11:29:55
I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma.

Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations

Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that.
#10
mouthymerc
Jun 02, 2011 12:30:35
I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma.

Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations

Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that.

Actually, there is a sidebar in the article saying to use shadar-kai and shades to represent inhabitants of Kalidnay.
#11
mach4
Jun 02, 2011 12:48:47 It seemed to imply that there are no normal human inhabitants left in the city.
#12
ultimate_cap
Jun 02, 2011 16:44:09
I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma.

Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations

Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that.

Actually, there is a sidebar in the article saying to use shadar-kai and shades to represent inhabitants of Kalidnay.

Oh, man, took brief at look at it, this is really so what I was looking for. Doesn't really do much to connect them to shadow giants, but heck, this may be better! Thanks for the info guys!
#13
dwaastoo
Jun 04, 2011 15:38:11
Shadowfell is what the Demi-plane of Shadow was in previous editions. It's pretty much a direct port chunked into the simplified cosmological setup that 4e uses over the previous Great Wheel multiverse. If you are fresh to D&D itself, no worries. There are several books out there available to learn more about other planes of existence.

Thank you for the explanation... I've been playing (A)D&D since the '80-es... and Dark Sun since '91, but never really knew what shadowfell was... I'll look for the books. Thanks again...

#14
Band2
Jun 07, 2011 21:58:25
The Shadow Giants were formally halflings that were loyal to Rajaat and banished to the Black by the Champions.

That is what Shadow Giants were in previous additions. In 4e, Shadow Giants are now undead giants killed during the cleansing wars and have ties to the Grey.
#15
Pennarin
Jun 08, 2011 11:22:33
The Black no longer exists in the 4e cosmology for Dark Sun; you may still bring it along, just make it a Domain of Dread within the Gray (Shadowfell, in 4e), that got created around Rajaat's otherworldy prison.

Even though Shadow Giants are now undead giants (imaginative, huh?), you can still say that there is a small tribe of these undead critters that are in fact cursed halflings - Rajaat's former servants - that were imprisonned into the Gray and cursed to become like Shadow Giants, and when the Black started to exist as a Domain of Dread around Rajaat's prison they migrated there to be closer to their master.

Remember, in the novels the Shadow Giants aren't undead and can reproduce using obsidian spheres...just make them cursed halflings that are now undead but that can still "reproduce" using the same spheres, even though they are undead.

When the curse is broken, when Rajaat is freed, they return to being living halflings.

#16
Alphastream
Jun 14, 2011 12:50:37

The Black no longer exists in the 4e cosmology for Dark Sun

Is that specifically true, or is the Black just not mentioned?
#17
Pennarin
Jun 15, 2011 19:51:49 When they mention the D&D planes, and their corresponding names for Athasians, the Black is not mentioned. Even though it's in the reprinted novels, it's not in the setting core book. Perhaps a future DDI article, but I'm not waiting.
#18
Alphastream
Jun 16, 2011 13:48:45 My guess is that it is part of their attempt to keep the "future" open. You can choose to go down the Prism Pentad path or do something different. In many ways, this works well... you have to choose to expose PCs to the Black as part of a campaign.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap Jun 01, 2011 14:23:54	Hey Gang, All you Dark Sun fans out there, refresh my memory on the shadow giants. I recall the one being in the verdant passage series, the one that fought Rikus. Did they appear at any other time and was there ever anything revealed about thier past? Reason I ask, I am wanting to know A) do they tie into the Grey/Shadowfell at all and B) can they be tied to Shades (the PC race)? Or can both Shade and Shadow Giants pasts/orgins be tied into the Grey?
#2 Sysane Jun 01, 2011 14:35:18	The Shadow Giants were formally halflings that were loyal to Rajaat and banished to the Black by the Champions.
#3 mach4 Jun 01, 2011 15:37:11	As pointed out, they tie into the Black, not the Grey. A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. Personally, I would see the Black being closer to the Shadowfell than the Grey. Just seems strange that there are so many living things traipsing about a place that is supposed to be the afterlife. Pre-4e, we developed the Black to be slightly similar to what the Shadowfell is now. Unless you want to alter them significantly, using Shadow Giants as a PC race by re-fluffing the Shade race might not be the way to go. They were 20' tall 2 dimensional beings give depth and size by brighter light sources. They were loyal to Rajaat and hence would have had access to a lot of information better left out of PC hands. They are healed by light (brighter light sources heal them more) and weakened in the absence of all light. Seems like a lot of re-fluffing needed to bring them in line to a PC race and in the end you just have a tall Shade race.
#4 dwaastoo Jun 01, 2011 16:03:23	[...] A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. [...] With the risk of sounding like an ultimate newbee... but what is this shadowfell that a see a lot of people writing about?
#5 khorne37 Jun 01, 2011 16:07:52	There are from what I can tell now five planes in D&D. Elemental Chaos the astral plane the material plane or actual world the fey wild where faires and what not live and the shadowfell where shadow magic heralds from as well as a bunch of undead.
#6 mach4 Jun 01, 2011 16:36:14	Shadowfell is what the Demi-plane of Shadow was in previous editions. It's pretty much a direct port chunked into the simplified cosmological setup that 4e uses over the previous Great Wheel multiverse. If you are fresh to D&D itself, no worries. There are several books out there available to learn more about other planes of existence.
#7 ultimate_cap Jun 01, 2011 21:45:13	As pointed out, they tie into the Black, not the Grey. A lot of people playing 4th seem to use the Shadowfell set-up for the Grey so I'm not sure really how in the 4th cosmology you would tie the Black into things. Personally, I would see the Black being closer to the Shadowfell than the Grey. Just seems strange that there are so many living things traipsing about a place that is supposed to be the afterlife. Pre-4e, we developed the Black to be slightly similar to what the Shadowfell is now. Unless you want to alter them significantly, using Shadow Giants as a PC race by re-fluffing the Shade race might not be the way to go. They were 20' tall 2 dimensional beings give depth and size by brighter light sources. They were loyal to Rajaat and hence would have had access to a lot of information better left out of PC hands. They are healed by light (brighter light sources heal them more) and weakened in the absence of all light. Seems like a lot of re-fluffing needed to bring them in line to a PC race and in the end you just have a tall Shade race. Sysane, you know, I don't recall them being halfings, but that's awsome. Now, Mach, I do not want to re-skin anything. Just trying to tie the Shade race into Darksun, and if the Shadowfell touches the setting "as is" that's fine...easy enough (and I can do pretty much anything I want to get it there). It's more the tie-in the giants that I was interested in. If the Shadowfell is a better setting, that's great...I can use that and call it the Dark. If that's what they would have in common, I can run with that. Just wanting to make sure there were nothing more I was forgetting about the shadow giants. I thought about shades having been "allies" so to speak, with the halflings long ago, and were supposed to become servants to Rajaat such as the fate that befell the halflings (only thier new form is now what we know as shades). Unlike the halflings/shadow giants, they were able to break away from Rajaat (and perhaps there is intense hatred between the two races now that can be traced back to that).
#8 naxel Jun 02, 2011 6:13:51	I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma. Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations
#9 ultimate_cap Jun 02, 2011 11:29:55	I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma. Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that.
#10 mouthymerc Jun 02, 2011 12:30:35	I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma. Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that. Actually, there is a sidebar in the article saying to use shadar-kai and shades to represent inhabitants of Kalidnay.
#11 mach4 Jun 02, 2011 12:48:47	It seemed to imply that there are no normal human inhabitants left in the city.
#12 ultimate_cap Jun 02, 2011 16:44:09	I don't know if you've ever had access to DDI but Wizards just put out an article for Dark Sun featuring the return of 2e's city-state, Kalidnay. It's mentioned in the 4e CG, too. This is a city that was more or less transported into the Shadowfell/Grey along with its sorcerer-king, Kalid-ma. Perhaps some inhabitants (or all, whatever) have become shades over the generations Ohhh, nice, I'll look into that. Actually, there is a sidebar in the article saying to use shadar-kai and shades to represent inhabitants of Kalidnay. Oh, man, took brief at look at it, this is really so what I was looking for. Doesn't really do much to connect them to shadow giants, but heck, this may be better! Thanks for the info guys!
#13 dwaastoo Jun 04, 2011 15:38:11	Shadowfell is what the Demi-plane of Shadow was in previous editions. It's pretty much a direct port chunked into the simplified cosmological setup that 4e uses over the previous Great Wheel multiverse. If you are fresh to D&D itself, no worries. There are several books out there available to learn more about other planes of existence. Thank you for the explanation... I've been playing (A)D&D since the '80-es... and Dark Sun since '91, but never really knew what shadowfell was... I'll look for the books. Thanks again...
#14 Band2 Jun 07, 2011 21:58:25	The Shadow Giants were formally halflings that were loyal to Rajaat and banished to the Black by the Champions. That is what Shadow Giants were in previous additions. In 4e, Shadow Giants are now undead giants killed during the cleansing wars and have ties to the Grey.
#15 Pennarin Jun 08, 2011 11:22:33	The Black no longer exists in the 4e cosmology for Dark Sun; you may still bring it along, just make it a Domain of Dread within the Gray (Shadowfell, in 4e), that got created around Rajaat's otherworldy prison. Even though Shadow Giants are now undead giants (imaginative, huh?), you can still say that there is a small tribe of these undead critters that are in fact cursed halflings - Rajaat's former servants - that were imprisonned into the Gray and cursed to become like Shadow Giants, and when the Black started to exist as a Domain of Dread around Rajaat's prison they migrated there to be closer to their master. Remember, in the novels the Shadow Giants aren't undead and can reproduce using obsidian spheres...just make them cursed halflings that are now undead but that can still "reproduce" using the same spheres, even though they are undead. When the curse is broken, when Rajaat is freed, they return to being living halflings.
#16 Alphastream Jun 14, 2011 12:50:37	The Black no longer exists in the 4e cosmology for Dark Sun Is that specifically true, or is the Black just not mentioned?
#17 Pennarin Jun 15, 2011 19:51:49	When they mention the D&D planes, and their corresponding names for Athasians, the Black is not mentioned. Even though it's in the reprinted novels, it's not in the setting core book. Perhaps a future DDI article, but I'm not waiting.
#18 Alphastream Jun 16, 2011 13:48:45	My guess is that it is part of their attempt to keep the "future" open. You can choose to go down the Prism Pentad path or do something different. In many ways, this works well... you have to choose to expose PCs to the Black as part of a campaign.