The very first encounter, which includes Silt Runner Ragers, has what I believe to be a misprint. One that outright killed two characters in the very first encounter of my campaign. It mentions their "Penetrating Spear" attack deals 4d6+4 damage... and there's 3 of them. Running this as is, like I said, outright killed the party's warlord, and wizard in the second round of combat.
The reason I believe it to be a typo, is two encounters later, the PCs fight more ragers. Except these ones deal 2d6+4 with their penetrating spears...
4d6+4 (plus vulnerable 5 to all damage) is pretty brutal at first level. Especially with 3 of these guys in the first encounter. I may have to apologize to my PCs.
But, yeah. Just a heads up for anyone wanting to run this. Even if for some reason it's not a typo, I advise against running it as is. It really put the fear of "Dark Sun" into my players though, lol.
Even if it was printed again in the CC, I still think that they made some sort of mistake.
For those of you with the CC - do any other first level soldiers/brutes do anywhere near as much damage?
I'm still making them deal 2d6 from now on anyways...
CC also has the Hejkin Sparker, L1 Soldier. It's damage output isn't as high, but it's a solider (and a well-designed one, it seems), so it shouldn't be too crazy on the damage.
We could compare the Silt Runner Rager with the Hejkin Raver, an L2 brute. Raver has +50% HP, a normal step up in defenses, +7/2d10+4 damage, an ability to recover a few HP on a strike, and some powers to really screw bloodied enemies (knock them prone as a minor action, attack enemies when they become bloodied).
The Dwarf Conscript, also L2 brute. Unimpressive in abilities (+7 AC / 2d6+6 damage, crit rider) until we get to the end, where its Singular Focus works like Hunter's Quarry: conscript picks one enemy and deals +5 damage to it until it drops, at which point it picks another enemy to use the power on.
From MM to CC, monsters seem to have gradually gotten tougher and more tactically interesting.
The third encounter with the watered down ragers was actually much harder, though in all fairness it because of poor PC tactics. The monk got gung ho, broke ranks and got a KO for his trouble, and the tank rushed to help him, leaving the sorcerer facing two ragers, which ended predicatbly. Once the line was reestablished things went much better for the PCs, who finshed off the fight after taking a few more hits.
We were lucky to avoid many hits. Our Fighter did take a pretty big shot from one of these guys, taking him from fresh to bloodied. It was kind of an "oh sh#t" moment. Our Barbarian then came charging in to lay a wicked blow, herself, and that Rager was dead before it attacked again. None of the other Silt Runners managed much, and none survived to regroup or gather reinforcements.
The Silt Runners in the Tower faired somewhat better. That encounter took a little longer due to less than stellar tactics, I think. We were all tired by then, and maybe weren't on top of our game. That said, no one dropped, and our Wizard may as well have been standing behind a wall with our Fighter in front of her. The Brawler Fighter seems to be very capable of locking enemies down.
Plus, if for some reason they roll over those 3 lizards in the first place, I can always have reinforcements arrive!
Josh
Ran it last night and they seemed fine, they do alot of damage, but with only a +5 to hit they often missed the PCs, especially the defenders. Their defenses were low, and they didn't have a ton of HP, so the PCs had downed two in about about a round and a half, and had them in full route by the middle of the second. Final body count was three PC's bloddied, and no survivors on the silt runners side.
The third encounter with the watered down ragers was actually much harder, though in all fairness it because of poor PC tactics. The monk got gung ho, broke ranks and got a KO for his trouble, and the tank rushed to help him, leaving the sorcerer facing two ragers, which ended predicatbly. Once the line was reestablished things went much better for the PCs, who finshed off the fight after taking a few more hits.
Admittedly, part of the problem we had was that the Ragers hit every single time with those powers. First hit bloodied the fighter in one go; when they laid in the second hit about a round later, he was down.
In fact, I think in the entire combat, the silt runners only missed twice (both times with blowgun). They never missed, otherwise, and just gutted the party. However, as you say they are relatively weak on defense, so the players rarely missed either. The whole fight was over in 3 rounds, but they were a brutal 3 rounds.
However, per the revised damage guidelines in the last rules update, 4d6+4 appears to be correct: it's the limited-high damage expression, ramped up 25% for a brute. Craziness.
Admittedly, part of the problem we had was that the Ragers hit every single time with those powers. First hit bloodied the fighter in one go; when they laid in the second hit about a round later, he was down.
In fact, I think in the entire combat, the silt runners only missed twice (both times with blowgun). They never missed, otherwise, and just gutted the party. However, as you say they are relatively weak on defense, so the players rarely missed either. The whole fight was over in 3 rounds, but they were a brutal 3 rounds.
However, per the revised damage guidelines in the last rules update, 4d6+4 appears to be correct: it's the limited-high damage expression, ramped up 25% for a brute. Craziness.
The one serious blow that a Rager landed on our Fighter was an eye-opener. I'm glad they didn't land anymore than that, as things may have gone south very quickly.
I need to go ahead and get MM3, I think. I have waited because I don't expect to DM for a while, but I'd really like to see the new guidelines first hand, I think.
If only Amazon would ship my damn DSCC...
The one serious blow that a Rager landed on our Fighter was an eye-opener. I'm glad they didn't land anymore than that, as things may have gone south very quickly.
I need to go ahead and get MM3, I think. I have waited because I don't expect to DM for a while, but I'd really like to see the new guidelines first hand, I think.
I don't know if any of the brutes have that damage expression, actually, in the MM3. I arrived at 4d6+4 by fiddling with average damage in the monster builder, actually, and it ended up coming up with that damage ...note that I may have done something wrong, so I only say that it appears to be right). I can't find anything similar in the MM3, though. Damage is increased in general, but there aren't any directly available comparisons.
If only Amazon would ship my damn DSCC...
I feel your pain. Waiting on my DSCC as well.
The one serious blow that a Rager landed on our Fighter was an eye-opener. I'm glad they didn't land anymore than that, as things may have gone south very quickly.
I need to go ahead and get MM3, I think. I have waited because I don't expect to DM for a while, but I'd really like to see the new guidelines first hand, I think.
I don't know if any of the brutes have that damage expression, actually, in the MM3. I arrived at 4d6+4 by fiddling with average damage in the monster builder, actually, and it ended up coming up with that damage ...note that I may have done something wrong, so I only say that it appears to be right). I can't find anything similar in the MM3, though. Damage is increased in general, but there aren't any directly available comparisons.
If only Amazon would ship my damn DSCC...
I feel your pain. Waiting on my DSCC as well.
I gotcha. I completely forgot about Monster Builder.
I just checked my Amazon account, and it now lists my DSCC as being prepared to ship. I was worried, honestly. Maybe we'll all have our CC soon.
Overall, I have great experiences with Amazon- enough so that I've been a Prime Member for quite a while, now. There was one bad experience with a preorder, though, that this was starting to mirror. The vendor made changes to their product (as WotC did in changing the DSCC from Paperback to Hardcover) and this somehow seemed to screw up the fulfillment of my order. I had to cancel my preorder and reorder the item.
Thankfully, this doesn't seem to be a problem this time, and I'm getting a Hardcover Creature Catalog for something like $12! That's worth a couple of weeks' wait, in my mind.
See, here's a similar power:
Bear Hug (standard, recharge 
)
+6 vs Fortitude; 3d8+4 damage and the target is grabbed (see hurl).
3d8+4 comes out to around the same average damage, I think (somewhere around 18); but that power comes from a level 4 solo, Lurg the Brawler.
It makes combat a lot more interesting, and makes it go a lot faster.
It makes combat a lot more interesting, and makes it go a lot faster.
A well reasoned post, this is. I believe the sentiment above is exactly the point of the new monster guidelines. The devs would be pleased, I think, to here it expressed this way.
The Silt Runner Rager's defenses are typical for a 1st level Brute. In fact, some Brutes have lower defenses. So I don't think low defenses is an arguement against the Rager being overpowered.
They do hit hard, but I still don't feel they're overpowered because the combat just goes FASTER. We kill them faster, and they do as much damage as would usually have been drawn out over 15 rounds in 5 rounds instead. This is my perspective as a player (not a DM), from a party with a striker, controller (me), leader, and two pseudo-defenders (offensively-built defenders who both have AC of 17 and aren't using shields)
Again, I might be doing this wrong.
Using the setting damage chart, A level 1 brute deals 1d10+5 (1d8+4 (12) +25% = 15) Even if you add +50% to 15, you come up with 22.5. Even 15+75% doesn't get a max of 28. So, it's either an error or more likely, the rager is suppose to be a seriously brutal opponent. I'd suggest either changing the damage or finding another method to help.
IMO, the rager should be dealing 18 max damage. (which is it's current average) 2d6+6 seems like the perfect damage output. Top that with the added Vulnerability 5 and you still end up with a deadly power at level 1.
I think whomever designed this monster might have made a mistake and used it's max damage as it's average. Then again, I don't use average damage as my guideline, I use max damage. (so I can end up with different dice combinations dealing different damage averages yet never break the max damage limit by level, which is 18 at level 1 with a +50% limited power. 21 with a +75% limited power.
Just my own method and it seems to work perfect IMO. So, My honest opinion is that the rager is an error.
If it's accurate - for instance, if Dark Sun creatures are just meaner than MM3 critters - or if the devs just said "uh...yeah, we felt like making it way high," that's cool too - Athas is hard.
Not saying that 4d6 is not a misprint on Penetrating Spear (I think it might be) but you did see that they can only use it when they are bloodied? So with some tactics and focus fire a party should be able able to take them out. They do hit hard though. Brutal spear is enough to hose a PC. Nasty.
Yeah, it's limited, but they still get 3 uses of a 4d6+ attack (unless you put 'em down before they get enough turns to use 'em, which is a very good idea - that's the trick, taking their first hit and then killing 'em ded before they can unload the other two uses).
unless the DM goes out of his way to explain how angry and fierce they are getting every time they get hit and get closer to bloodied, most parties are going to be a bit put off when you grab 4d6 for one attack from a level 1 monster... IMHO anyway...
this isn't like an elemental or swarm where the PCs may have an idea what time of attacks to use or what the creature might be vulnerable to... this is a level 1 monster that can more than bloody a defender in one hit and potentially kill a wounded controller, striker, or leader with one attack on the first battle of a brand new campaign without the PCs using horrible tactics or leaving themselves foolishly flanked....
just seems odd .. and for those of you who are using the encounter as published, are you bumping up the damage for the silt runners in the 3rd encounter where their attacks are down to 2d6 dice?
- note to self, gotta get me the creature catalog asap!! -
Josh
maybe I'm wrong here, but the idea that the PCs know ahead of time that these Silt Runners who they are in all likelihood encountering for the first time, will know that these guys become brutally damaging when bloodied is a bit of a stretch...
unless the DM goes out of his way to explain how angry and fierce they are getting every time they get hit and get closer to bloodied, most parties are going to be a bit put off when you grab 4d6 for one attack from a level 1 monster... IMHO anyway...
this isn't like an elemental or swarm where the PCs may have an idea what time of attacks to use or what the creature might be vulnerable to... this is a level 1 monster that can more than bloody a defender in one hit and potentially kill a wounded controller, striker, or leader with one attack on the first battle of a brand new campaign without the PCs using horrible tactics or leaving themselves foolishly flanked....
just seems odd .. and for those of you who are using the encounter as published, are you bumping up the damage for the silt runners in the 3rd encounter where their attacks are down to 2d6 dice?
- note to self, gotta get me the creature catalog asap!! -
Josh
No no, I meant if you survive your first encounter, hopefully you do better the next time ;)
Not saying that 4d6 is not a misprint on Penetrating Spear (I think it might be) but you did see that they can only use it when they are bloodied? So with some tactics and focus fire a party should be able able to take them out. They do hit hard though. Brutal spear is enough to hose a PC. Nasty.
Yeah, it's limited, but they still get 3 uses of a 4d6+ attack (unless you put 'em down before they get enough turns to use 'em, which is a very good idea - that's the trick, taking their first hit and then killing 'em ded before they can unload the other two uses).
Where do you get three uses from? It's an encounter power. Which, unless I am sorely mistaken, means they get to use it once, period.
Not saying that 4d6 is not a misprint on Penetrating Spear (I think it might be) but you did see that they can only use it when they are bloodied? So with some tactics and focus fire a party should be able able to take them out. They do hit hard though. Brutal spear is enough to hose a PC. Nasty.
Yeah, it's limited, but they still get 3 uses of a 4d6+ attack (unless you put 'em down before they get enough turns to use 'em, which is a very good idea - that's the trick, taking their first hit and then killing 'em ded before they can unload the other two uses).
Where do you get three uses from? It's an encounter power. Which, unless I am sorely mistaken, means they get to use it once, period.
They have two 4d6+4 powers:
Brutal Spear: 4d6+4, recharge when first bloodied
Penetrating Spear: 4d6+4, encounter power, must be bloodied to use
So, 3 uses - 2 brutal spears, 1 penetrating spear. Hopefully, you put them down before they get two turns after being bloodied, or you hope they miss. (Potentially only 2 uses, if the GM does not start monsters with an available use of recharge powers with that kind of recharge limitation).
Besides the raw damage, the other component people miss is the +2 to-hit difference between the two sets of silt-runner-rager stats. While using the stats from encounter 3, the ragers have a harder time hitting even with their highly damaging powers. The darters become the true threat in this fight, especially with their immobilize poison.
I'm running the first CG encounter right now for a play-by-post game, you can see how its going. I went with the rager stats from encounter 3 in the CG instead of encounter 1 so I dont insta-kill the party (we are playing things as they roll).
Though the damage is fairer, the other component people miss is the +2 to-hit difference between the two sets of stats. While using the stats from encounter 3, the ragers have a harder time hitting and the darters become the real threat in this fight, especially with their immobilize poison.
You know, I didn't notice that - and if I recall, one of the things they did to brutes in the most recent update was take away their -2 to-hit offset (all creatures attack AC at Level + 5 now). Since Level + 5 for these guys is +6, I'm thinking the only clarification we're going to get is that the Encounter 3 stats are the wrong ones.
I'm running the first CG encounter right now for a play-by-post game, you can see how its going. I went with the rager stats from encounter 3 in the CG instead of encounter 1 so I dont insta-kill the party (we are playing things as they roll).
Though the damage is fairer, the other component people miss is the +2 to-hit difference between the two sets of stats. While using the stats from encounter 3, the ragers have a harder time hitting and the darters become the real threat in this fight, especially with their immobilize poison.
You know, I didn't notice that - and if I recall, one of the things they did to brutes in the most recent update was take away their -2 to-hit offset (all creatures attack AC at Level + 5 now). Since Level + 5 for these guys is +6, I'm thinking the only clarification we're going to get is that the Encounter 3 stats are the wrong ones.
Hmm so the difference between the two statblocks in the CG could be pre- and post-MM3 stats.
That would also explain how Penetrating Spear went from 2d6+5 to 4d6+4. 12 average damage to 18, which is a 50% boost recommended for encounter powers.