Just announced on GenCon.
and soon the fora will explode
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4spot/2009August
and soon the fora will explode
EXPLODE WITH JOY THAT IS
Oh thank you god.
I knew it was going to be Dark Sun, I just knew it.
But no one believed me.
"OH NO IT WILL BE DL!" despite the fact that the designers were quoted saying DL and Greyhawk will come much later rather than sooner if at all.
Now perhaps I'll finally get the joy of playing in a Dark Sun campaign. *I have limited electronic experience with it and the 3e dungeon articles*
Dungeons & Dragons can't wait to play a 4e Dark Sun campaign in 2010!
Buy a campaign setting! Go Darksun!
Oh, it’s so far away, nearly a year… it’s already killing me!
I knew it was going to be Dark Sun, I just knew it.
But no one believed me.
What do you mean no one believed you? I'm looking at poll on ENWorld right now where 46% of people though it would be Dark Sun(16% higher than Dragonlance).
Cannibal halflings, though, can be scary.
Those who have never played DarkSun should count themselves lucky to never have known the utter fear and wrongness of cannibal haflings.
Show
Of course, my experience with DarkSun dates back to 2E, in high school, who thought it was cool to roll 5d4 for all stats.
20 Str in 2E was super strong at level 1 (+3 to hit, +8 damage in melee!), and Half Giants had like a +4 to Strength (24 Str gave +6 hit, +12 damage, IIRC). It was kind of silly.
20 Str in 2E was super strong at level 1 (+3 to hit, +8 damage in melee!), and Half Giants had like a +4 to Strength (24 Str gave +6 hit, +12 damage, IIRC). It was kind of silly.
What do you mean no one believed you? I'm looking at poll on ENWorld right now where 46% of people though it would be Dark Sun(16% higher than Dragonlance).
You wouldn't believe the crap I caught for quoting Mike Mearls and what's his face, when I read that DL and Greyhawk were pretty much all but said "never gonna happen, because they are too much like FR. We don't want to do another High Fantasy for a long while".
Good thing too. One of the main point of awesomeness of the setting is how gritty it is.
Maybe half giants are reflavored Goliaths?
Half-Giants were referenced as a race in the Eberron Player's Guide which also mentioned Goliaths, so I think they are keeping the two races seperate.
Booooooooo Dark Sun.
This'll be the first campaign setting I've bought...
EVER.
If they do that, hold true to that idea, I will be most pleased!
Wait, what? Really? Not that I'm not happy or anything, I'd much prefer quirkier, more distinctive campaign settings to the more generic fantasy ones, but, really? With all the Dragonlance stuff and events they had going on at gencon? There must have been some very dissapointed DL fans. If I were one, I'd probably be a bit bitter at being jerked around.
Oh I am, trust me.
Add to it people gloating in the Dragonlance 2010 thread, and it's a pretty crappy day.
Oh I am, trust me.
Add to it people gloating in the Dragonlance 2010 thread, and it's a pretty crappy day.
Well you shouldn't have felt jerked around really.
They did say at one point "We have no plans to do Greyhawk or Dragonlance at this time, as they are not quite distinct enough from FR. We are focusing on multiple genres right now, rather than just high fantasy"
Half-Giants were referenced as a race in the Eberron Player's Guide which also mentioned Goliaths, so I think they are keeping the two races seperate.
I wonder what will greatly distinguish the Goliaths and Half-Giants. How many ways can you make giantlike Str/Con races? Are half-giants going to be purely monsters now?
I guess you could take away the stone theme of the Goliaths and add in more beastial elements. That could work, sort of like a shifter/goliath mix.
I also wonder how they'll implement the mul (half-human / half-dwarf), a very iconic race for Dark Sun.
Many questions. I guess I will have to wait 10 or so months to see how they are implemented.
Wait, what? Really? Not that I'm not happy or anything, I'd much prefer quirkier, more distinctive campaign settings to the more generic fantasy ones, but, really? With all the Dragonlance stuff and events they had going on at gencon? There must have been some very dissapointed DL fans. If I were one, I'd probably be a bit bitter at being jerked around.
All of the Dragonlance events are for the 25th anniversery. And from what I seem to recall, most of the things occur every year at Gencon. The only thing that I'm aware of that was done exclusively for the anniversery was the ultimate Dragonlance fan contest.Oh I am, trust me.
Add to it people gloating in the Dragonlance 2010 thread, and it's a pretty crappy day.
Eh? I haven't really seen anyone really "gloating". I mean the topic of the thread is "Is Dragonlance the 2010 setting?" Therefore posting that it isn't and Dark Sun is is a completely legitimate post. And really why does it matter? It isn't like there is a need for that thread anymore anyways. Just ignore the thread if people posting in it about the 2010 setting cheeses you off.
Eh? I haven't really seen anyone really "gloating". I mean the topic of the thread is "Is Dragonlance the 2010 setting?" Therefore posting that it isn't and Dark Sun is is a completely legitimate post.
Not to mention i said that it "unfortunately" looked like Dragonlance in the main post. ;)
It was never intended to be the "yay Dragonlance!" thread.
Hmmm. Do you think the half-giants might be our first PC race (other than humans, of course) to vary from the +2 to two stats paradigm?
(and no, I know this is only vast speculation, but we've all seen it before)
In the interview when asked about PCs in DS he says that they'll have whole hosts of options not available to a typical D&D fighter...
This leads me to scary thoughts that go back to original Dark Sun, like, Character Trees and characters whose power curves were vastly different from the standard game...
God forbid they should create a setting again where all the rules push it away from everything else established instead of being compatible.
And since the design team seems to have a great big happy for this since it was their baby before... I see wild days ahead, wild days...
(To be fair though, that entire preview of 2010 article left me kinda cold, so...)
Hopefully they'll avoid the massive divergence from character power level norms that the old edition showed, although I suppose that will cost it some of the flavor.
I bet that character power level will pretty much be the same as everything else in 4e, what with the big emphasis on balance. What James said about the new fighter options that will apply to other dark sun characters and make them unique is pretty intriguing though.
Hmmm. Do you think the half-giants might be our first PC race (other than humans, of course) to vary from the +2 to two stats paradigm?
I don't see why it would have to. If anything, they will be the 7' tall 3E half-giants, not the 12' 2e ones.
My guess is – they’ll leave out some of the new races, incorporate a few, add muls, thri-kreens and maybe half-giants, and set a nice "Other races" sidebar including why they left out some races and how to incorporate them, maybe even retracing those races history to previous ages.
I personally think Dragonborns could replace Drays, Half-Giants could be Goliaths, and I think the Shifter makes a nice addition to the original Darksun races – maybe tweaked to add a new “subtype”?
they'll have whole hosts of options not available to a typical D&D fighter...
To me, that says that the fighter will be getting his Siege Warfare talents like he used to have in the original Dark Sun setting. I'm betting it's another fighter build that specializes in mass combat and artillery.
Also, we have yet to see how they will rework the planes. Its safe to assume they will include the astral sea, the elemental chaos, the feywild and the shadowfell as they have in both previous settings. How they rework how the sorcerer kings draw near unlimited power without the ethreal plane is also a question.
Races like the eladrin, tiefling and genasi would be very easy to include. Things like goliaths, gnomes and half orcs would also be easy to include. Things like warforged would be relics as someone else already posted from the bygone ages or weapons created for the cleansing war that were never used. Psionic could explain warforged becoming self aware living contructs and it would also be a great fluff explanation on why there is so little known metal (because much of it went to the contruction of a race)
The biggest problems are not the racial additions, but the cosmology of athas in general. I'm open to 4e additions and changes because wotc will do what wotc does whether we want it or not. So I'm prepared to accept what I have to and bend and warp my mind in a way that will enjoy what we get.
+2str, +2 con, medium half giants irk me bad. But I will accept them.
Now they just need to release a Shadowfell supplement, and I will be very happy.
In the interview when asked about PCs in DS he says that they'll have whole hosts of options not available to a typical D&D fighter...
Not available to the typical D&D fighter yet.
a whole set of options available to him that aren’t (yet) available to other D&D characters
You have to read all of the words.
JOY!!!!
JOY!!!!
WOTC I LOVE YOU!!!!!
JOY!!!!
JOY!!!!
JOY!!!!
SPASM!!!
JOY!!!!
THANK YOU!!!
THANK YOU!!!!!
I LOVE YOU!!!!
THANK YOU!!!!
JOY!!!!
JOY!!!!
From what i heard the Primordials/Elementals are much more important in DS. Does that mean that Genasi will be quite easy to integrate ?
From what I remember, they were not a Dark Sun race in 2e. That being said, I personally think that both the Genasi and the Warforged* are fairly easy to integrate. Stuff like gnomes, half-orcs, and the like, are very hard to integrate without doing injustice to the setting. But as you said, elementals are a big part of the setting. Imagining a child born in a particularly elemental infused location mechanically being represented as a Genasi seems very logical. And, having a pocket of old technology appear explains a warforged away lickety split.
* Except, a warforged wouldn't work well in game. Explaining one is easy. Explaining why everyone doesn't try and kill it for the materials its made out of, or capture it to figure out how to make more, isn't.
From what i heard the Primordials/Elementals are much more important in DS. Does that mean that Genasi will be quite easy to integrate ?
I would think so. Darksun has always been elementally themed. Primal spirits as spirits of the land are a solid fit. As long as they keep the gods as distant, then it will all work out. The problem lies in planar exploration and the inclusion of the gods in that form.
A shadow sorcerer traveling the shadowfell comes in contact with the ravenqueen. Could be an issue.
BUT!
Considering how Eberron handled the core gods, its not hard to picture DS handling them in its own way. Inclusion of the gods as another form of advanced being and nothing more.
From what I remember, they were not a Dark Sun race in 2e. That being said, I personally think that both the Genasi and the Warforged* are fairly easy to integrate. Stuff like gnomes, half-orcs, and the like, are very hard to integrate without doing injustice to the setting. But as you said, elementals are a big part of the setting. Imagining a child born in a particularly elemental infused location mechanically being represented as a Genasi seems very logical. And, having a pocket of old technology appear explains a warforged away lickety split.
* Except, a warforged wouldn't work well in game. Explaining one is easy. Explaining why everyone doesn't try and kill it for the materials its made out of, or capture it to figure out how to make more, isn't.
Half orcs, gnomes and the like could be survivors from the cleansing war in hiding. Granted they would not have large scale settlements on athas (tyr region) and would be rare to encounter but that would not limit pc use as PC's are the exception to any rule. Anything could be rare as seen on eberron. Genasi could easily be added with the flavor of 3e azurins. They were born with a deeper connection to the elemental properties or the elemental properties infused the humans more than most resulting in the genasi off spring.
Athas has plenty of options for "out of the ordinary".
* Except, a warforged wouldn't work well in game. Explaining one is easy. Explaining why everyone doesn't try and kill it for the materials its made out of, or capture it to figure out how to make more, isn't.
Actually, this sounds like a fun character concept to play. Always on the run, secret hidden Warforged cities, danger at every turn, don't know who to trust. I'm getting goose bumps already. lol
The least magic item dependent setting of 2e getting jammed into magic item required 4e just seems crazy.
\
Do we play the same 4e?
Can't wait to see how they did this, I have a hard time fitting Dark Sun into 4e in my mind. The least magic item dependent setting of 2e getting jammed into magic item required 4e just seems crazy. Maybe all the bone and obsidian wrist razors will be magic? Hope they don't screw up the setting just to shoe horn it into 4e.
As I understand it, the DMG2 is going to have a lot of non-item based rewards, such as training or site-based rewards or the like. I'm unfamiliar with Dark Sun, but I'm sure these new options will be heavily included, if Dark Sun is indeed very magic item independent.
\
Do we play the same 4e?
Not that you didn't before, but now you absolutely need those +X items to remain competitive without houserules.
Not available to the typical D&D fighter yet.
You have to read all of the words.
I was thinking that exactly. What I'm thinking is setting specific boon. To replace magic items we'll get tons of boons and grandmaster training.
Plus we'll probably see fighting style feat.
Not that you didn't before, but now you absolutely need those +X items to remain competitive without houserules.
I vaguely remember the DMG already offering a rule to get around that.
I vaguely remember the DMG already offering a rule to get around that.
I think there may be some guidelines in the AV but nothing completely fleshed out. It sounds like a system might be presented in the DMG2 though.
Yay!
Well, time to plan my DS campaign.
I think there may be some guidelines in the AV but nothing completely fleshed out. It sounds like a system might be presented in the DMG2 though.
Or DMG 3 at the very least... I'm sure they will add something to make the game run equipment light for Dark Sun.
Having to wait a whole year is going to kill me. :P
For those that wanted DragonLance you have my sympathy. Hopefully your entusiasm is notice by WotC and they realize the interest that is there for the setting.
I would assume that Thri-Keen would be one race (Though I think we all have seen what assumptions get you
), but what do you all think the races will be?Mul
Pterran or halfgiants or dunerunners.
I would assume that Thri-Keen would be one race (Though I think we all have seen what assumptions get you
IMO, if they have three races in the DSPG it will be Thri-Kreen, Muls and Half-Giants.
And do the Muls have any sort of visual cue to distinguish them from humans and dwarves??
4e Giants are related to the Titans who are related to the elemental chaos...so essentially wouldn't half-giants be some sort of cross between Goliaths and Genasis?
And do the Muls have any sort of visual cue to distinguish them from humans and dwarves??
Half giants are NOT some cross between goliaths and genasi.:P Just as athasian giants are NOT related to Mountain or Hill giants from the core rules.
But they could be related to primordials. Just not in such a obvious way.
Mul's are hairless halfdwarves who are taller than dwarves. They are also naturally good warriors and workers and they do not have a life focus.
Muls are a great example of a race of people born into oppression and slavery, working towards freedom and equal rights.
And do the Muls have any sort of visual cue to distinguish them from humans and dwarves??
Basicly they look like dwarves, but as tall as humans
Not that you didn't before, but now you absolutely need those +X items to remain competitive without houserules.
It was always like that. But in 4e it could be cured much more easily.
And competitive? With whom? On local BG/Arena?
I also really wonder how this is going to fit with LFR as everything is core now. Athas is sooo different from Faerun.
On the matter of half-giants, we may see them in PH3. I first saw them in the 3.5 Psionics book and PH3 will have psionics in it, so there may be a connection there. (There are other psionic races, but from what I have seen PH3 will have fewer races than the other PH's.)
This is sheer speculation, but I get the feeling that 2011's setting will be something brand new.
Races:
- Thri-Keen
- Muls
- I think we could see perhaps a variety of Feats, or switch-out templates for other races.
Classes:
I could see lots of Feats, new Powers, etc. to make classes feel more appropriate for Dark Sun. Primal getting stuff dealing with sand, Arcane the Defiler stuff and so forth. I really don't know what class they will bring in.
Other Stuff:
Just like FR had Spell-Plague and Eberron Dragonmarks. Dark Sun will have some manner of Psionic Wild Talent.
As Dark Sun is shaping in my head right now. It is going to be a setting with lots of the crunch for PCs focused on feel, and while allowing lots of things from core showing how it would be done in Dark Sun. Such as Defilers, or Elementals and Divine Classes.
As for discussion for 2011 Setting.
My bets are also on a new setting and one that also isn't traditional fantasy. I think the comment in the article about measuring how close to traditional fantasy a setting is, is a telling one. It makes me think that we will continue to see settings that go for the less mundane over the more. So yeah my bets are on a non-conventional, new setting. I also don't think PoL will get a full-setting done for it, I think keeping it as a core semi-setting is a good thing.
It was always like that. But in 4e it could be cured much more easily.
And competitive? With whom? On local BG/Arena?
Competitive with appropriately leveled monsters.
Pterran or dunerunners.
Would you please explain to me what those are ? Are Pterran'S related to that flying dinosaur(/Behemots
) things ? Pteranods or how they are called....And please explain to a newcomer what is so exiting about half-giants ? Is there something more about them as big/strong. I heard they are really psionic but yeah, that doesn't count it for me.
And i don't want any more half classes. 2 + a bloodline are enough for me.
I hope they don't get rid of EVERYTHING from the revised set. The Obsidian Lands and the Thr-Kreen Empire wer cool - and they HAVE to keep Dregoth!
Would you please explain to me what those are ? Are Pterran'S related to that flying dinosaur(/Behemots
And please explain to a newcomer what is so exiting about half-giants ? Is there something more about them as big/strong. I heard they are really psionic but yeah, that doesn't count it for me.
And i don't want any more half classes. 2 + a bloodline are enough for me.
Half-giant, thri-kreen, and mull are the three Dark Sun specific races that really flavored the setting. Half-giants are sort of a must in my opinion. It wouldn't really be Dark Sun without them.
And I was a bit scared because frankly, I thought the "It's going to be Dragonlance" camp had some good arguments. Since Darksun is my favorite setting from the old days, I am glad to see that they were wrong.
I actually think Defilers and Preservers will be wizard builds (with appropriate class features) rather than paragon paths.
I hope they don't get rid of EVERYTHING from the revised set. The Obsidian Lands and the Thr-Kreen Empire wer cool - and they HAVE to keep Dregoth!
Preserver and Defiler should really be a term that is applied to almost all arcane magic (with, perhaps, the one exception of warlocks, if those make it into the setting in some shape or form).
To be honest, preserver should probably be the default term for all arcane classes that don't choose defiling features, and defiler should probably be statted something like the spellscars, but only for arcane power source classes, and with powers that work something like the powers from the last "Art of the Kill" dragon article (the powers act as a buff that beefs up other existing powers with extra benefits instead of granting all new powers of their own), and with its own special paragon path. There should probably be an epic destiny for both preservers and defilers. At least, that is how I would do it.
Weren't the arrikokra (bird people, I'm probably misspelling) also a standard DS race? I remember them being there, but nobody in my group ever actually played one.
I think they got added with the 2nd boxed set, though I don't remember for sure. They were not in the first boxed set (from what I remember). But, to be honest, I think maybe thri-kreen were not added as a PC race until the 2nd box set either (though they were always an important NPC race). I could be wrong though. Its been a long time since I have seen either boxed set in person.
I think they got added with the 2nd boxed set, though I don't remember for sure. They were not in the first boxed set (from what I remember). But, to be honest, I think maybe thri-kreen were not added as a PC race until the 2nd box set either (though they were always an important NPC race). I could be wrong though. Its been a long time since I have seen either boxed set in person.
The set I always played out of (I think it was the first) had Thrikreen for PCs, but no mention anywhere that I can remember of the Aarockra or however that was spelled.
I picked up supplements years later and couldn't figure out who these bird people were.
also note
I am not buying it.
may look at it, but have no immediate plans further than that.
but to all you Dark Sun Fans, I do hope you enjoy it, and that they didnt butcher it like they did the Forgotten Realms setting. well when it is released anyway.
see you in 2011, maybe.
The Worlds of D&D are rounding out! Awesome!
That means only one thing.....................SOMETHING NEW!!!! WOOT!
Half-giant, thri-kreen, and mull are the three Dark Sun specific races that really flavored the setting. Half-giants are sort of a must in my opinion. It wouldn't really be Dark Sun without them.
I see what Mull and Tri-Kreen are about. Mull aren't that exiting but have this slave opressed etc. thing going on that is unique. What role do Halgiants fill ?
I see what Mull and Tri-Kreen are about. Mull aren't that exiting but have this slave opressed etc. thing going on that is unique. What role do Halgiants fill ?
Even more of a slave-oppressed thing than the Mull (the half-giants were bread by the sorcerer kings as a work-horses and gladiators), and the whole 'massive big brute in the post-apocalyptic world' vibe. IE: They are the playable "supermutants" of a fantasy post-apocalyptic wasteland.
I wonder how they will fit in Eladrin into Athas. They don't seem to fit with the whole post-apocalyptic theme.
Cannibal halflings, though, can be scary.
Those who have never played DarkSun should count themselves lucky to never have known the utter fear and wrongness of cannibal haflings.ShowOf course, my experience with DarkSun dates back to 2E, in high school, who thought it was cool to roll 5d4 for all stats.
20 Str in 2E was super strong at level 1 (+3 to hit, +8 damage in melee!), and Half Giants had like a +4 to Strength (24 Str gave +6 hit, +12 damage, IIRC). It was kind of silly.
Congrats to all of us! It is a good day today.
I'm sure they will figure in a way to account for less magic items and such...
Can you say DMG2? Boons? Hellz yes!
Fail. Dark Sun is my absolute least favourite setting.
The second sentence doesn't justify Dark Sun being fail.
Would you please explain to me what those are ? Are Pterran'S related to that flying dinosaur(/Behemots
And please explain to a newcomer what is so exiting about half-giants ? Is there something more about them as big/strong. I heard they are really psionic but yeah, that doesn't count it for me.
And i don't want any more half classes. 2 + a bloodline are enough for me.
Pterrans are reptiloids with light brown, scaly skin who can grow as tall as 6 feet, they stand upright with two arms that end in hands and have three taloned fingers and opposable thumbs and two legs with three toed feet. They have short tails and two stubs at their shoulder blades as evidence of wings that vanished many generations ago.
Some believe they are related to the flying creatures called the pterrax, although the link must be in the distant past. They were included in the DS revised box set and are tied to the great earthquake as to when they first began appearing in the tyr region. They are known to live in the hinterlands west of the ringing mountains, most specifically in the lost scale and pterran vale. They venerate the earth mother which is the name they have for athas.
They follow one of three paths. (life paths) The warriors path, the druid path and the psionicists path.
They were a really cool and exciting new race to play when the DSR came out.
As for halfgiants, they were created through magical experimentation in the early years of the sorcerer kings. They stand 10-12 feet tall and weigh around 1600 lbs. They were known to be accepting of others and curious of other cultures and races. They also had a habid of shifting alignments daily, so neutral was their most often found alignment, lawful or chaotic came from the influences they surrounded themselves with. They were brutally strong, not too bright and had an insane CON score. (double starting HP)
Originally posted by Crodocile
Weren't the arrikokra (bird people, I'm probably misspelling) also a standard DS race? I remember them being there, but nobody in my group ever actually played one.
Aarokocra were released as a playable race in the DSR boxset and are more like vultures than the proud birdlike araokocra you find in D&D. They suck as a pc because DM's usually can't deal with a member of the party who can fly and usually does while everyone else is stuck walking. They also have a hard time in DS because people hunt them down for many reasons.
As for the defiler/preserver thing, that can be handled easily with two seperate feats. Each representing a different method of gathering energy for spells.
Mul: +2 STR / + DEX?
Thri-kreen: +2 DEX / +2 CON ?
Thri-kreen: +2 DEX / +2 CON ?
If Thri-Kreen keep their four usable arms, they may only get one stat bonus because it is such an advantage to be able to wield, say, two two-handed weapons or a two-handed weapon and a shield.
so when do you think darksun will get its own forum? Before or after its release?
I could see it happening after this whole forum revamp thing they are doing this week. Just makes sense to kill two birds with one stone.
so when do you think darksun will get its own forum? Before or after its release?
It has it's own forum my friend. Go digging. It's there. And they're happy.
I could see it happening after this whole forum revamp thing they are doing this week. Just makes sense to kill two birds with one stone.
Technically they already have one, but it's still in the old 3E setup. I would imagine they are going to make a 4E one during the week of hell and silence......aka "revamp".
Is this contrary to what we have been lead to believe?
James Wyatt: As I mentioned before, I think the overall tone of Dark Sun makes it fit really well in the 4th Edition environment. In many ways, it’s really a perfect fit. Even the idea that characters might wear less armor or rely less on gear in general is easy to implement in the current rules set.
If Thri-Kreen keep their four usable arms, they may only get one stat bonus because it is such an advantage to be able to wield, say, two two-handed weapons or a two-handed weapon and a shield.
I think you of all people would be the first to point out how overpowered that would be.
I think you of all people would be the first to point out how overpowered that would be.
Agreed, I anticipate the Thri-kreen will get some Encounter power benefit of having a second set of arms. WotC has been aggressive with their "economy of actions" philosophy and I speculate they'll continue to be so with a race with arms. In the old days I remember a Thri-kreen gladiator taking a good .... 20 minutes to finish rolling attacks?
And an awesome cover!
May dragons for ever fly in your dreams!
This will be the first campaign setting I have ever purchased for 4e.
Thanks a million WoTC.
I'm glad its a good setting. I've always liked Dark Sun.
If Thri-Kreen keep their four usable arms, they may only get one stat bonus because it is such an advantage to be able to wield, say, two two-handed weapons or a two-handed weapon and a shield.
My best guess is that the secondary arms would be made Prehensile. You can hold items like sun-rods and such, but no dual wielding Full-blades. If they aren't prehensile and you can wield two 2-handed weapons at once, they'll probably do like the original War-forged im-bedded stuff and you'll lose any and all proficiency bonus for the items.
Honestly, only giving them one (static) stat bonus and quad-wielding would completely pigeon-hole the race.
*blah blah threadcrap*
No one cares that mean ol' WOTC hurt your feelings.
In other news, I sure hope Thri-kreen are included in the Player's Guide! I've never played one, but they always seemed rather cool. Mantis people, for christ' sake!
I probably won't be buying the DS products because it isn't my cup of tea. I have never been a fan of psionics, and Dark Sun glorifies them, so probably a non-purchase for me. Next year is looking to be slim pickings for me as of right now.
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot, that artwork looks phenomenal. Though I wish that dragon was a lot bigger.
Also, I thought Baker and Wyatt were at the reigns here. Why isn't Wyatt's name on the cover?
For me though? Coming on the heels of Eberron, my second least favourite setting, kick to the teeth. Two years in a row of settings I can't sodding stand. Ugh.
Also:
The new version's focus will be on the 50,000 survivors of Athas after the Warforged nuked the planet, as they search desperately for a mythical planet named Htrae in their fleet of spelljammer ships, while fighting off more Warforged attacks.
a.) Goodbye, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
b.) that would be nifty. and Awesome. and Nifty. I may steal that for my own campaign.
I'm not a fan of using published settings in the first place -- I prefer to use my own homebrewed worlds. At least with FR I'm using the races and classes presented there. With Eberron, I only use 1 race (Changelings) and no classes (can't stand the magitech thing). I seriously doubt I'll use anything from Dark Sun.
Elegant, flavorful, balanced.
It seems the settings are getting more divergent from High Fantasy and Swords and Sorcery as time goes by. Maybe by 2011 it will be Gamma World.
I'd speculate from a business decision, they don't want settings competing with one another. Also more importantly it probably has as much of the different skews they're hoping for. You've got high fantasy, steam punk, and now post-apocalyptic. If you only did high fantasy, you'd never touch the other two. It's a shotgun approach to product skews. Maybe after DS they'll go for things like Dragonlance and the like, fill in the gaps if you will.
I'd speculate from a business decision, they don't want settings competing with one another. Also more importantly it probably has as much of the different skews they're hoping for. You've got high fantasy, steam punk, and now post-apocalyptic. If you only did high fantasy, you'd never touch the other two. It's a shotgun approach to product skews. Maybe after DS they'll go for things like Dragonlance and the like, fill in the gaps if you will.
This is kinda what I am thinking. By the time 2011 rolls around, Forgotten Realms will be three years old and off the minds of a good number of people not playing there. We could certainly see more traditional fantasy by that point.
I disapprove in the strongest terms possible. I hate, Hate, HATE Dark Sun. I've never been able to understand why it appeals to some people.
I swear, the WotC folks must despise the image of the heavily-armoured knight; James Wyatt's statement about Dark Sun's lack of armour being a "perfect fit" with 4E only confirms my suspicions. First, they publish a ton of classes, feats, powers, and features that focus on light armour, neglecting heavy armour almost altogether, and now they're going to publish an entire setting in which it's impossible for me to play a knight in steel plate armour. I couldn't have fun in such a setting.
No thanks. Not for me.
I begin to fear that D&D has room for my playstyle anymore, and all the crowing over this horrible setting just tells me how far from its roots the fandom has drifted while I got left behind. I can't get enough of traditional fantasy; Dark Sun is just too radical a departure from what I like to make me even think about looking in its direction.
I would, however, add a stipulation that states that a thri-kreen wielding a two handed weapon may not effectively wield a second weapon or a shield (though I might let them take a feat that allows this).
Damn.
I disapprove in the strongest terms possible. I hate, Hate, HATE Dark Sun. I've never been able to understand why it appeals to some people.
I swear, the WotC folks must despise the image of the heavily-armoured knight; James Wyatt's statement about Dark Sun's lack of armour being a "perfect fit" with 4E only confirms my suspicions. First, they publish a ton of classes, feats, powers, and features that focus on light armour, neglecting heavy armour almost altogether, and now they're going to publish an entire setting that completely, utterly lacks steel plate armour. I couldn't have fun in such a setting.
No thanks. Not for me.
I begin to fear that D&D has room for my playstyle anymore, and all the crowing over this horrible setting just tells me how far from its roots the fandom has drifted while I got left behind. I can't get enough of traditional fantasy; Dark Sun is just too radical a departure from what I like to make me even think about looking in its direction.
Please be sure to enjoy Points of Light, your own homebrew traditional fantasy setting, or Forgotten Realms. All of them include heavy metal armor, and are traditional fantasy settings, all of them should appeal to you. Depending on how you feel about magitech, Eberron might be your cup of tea as well.
As for me, I'm ecstatic. Dark Sun here I come! Of course, I could care less if we never see another traditional fantasy setting again. I mean, it would be sad for the fans that like those things. I would be upset that those fans were not getting what they wanted out of the game. But traditional fantasy is nothing I want to spend my money on. Eberron, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Planescape are my cup of tea.
Damn.
I disapprove in the strongest terms possible. I hate, Hate, HATE Dark Sun. I've never been able to understand why it appeals to some people.
I swear, the WotC folks must despise the image of the heavily-armoured knight; James Wyatt's statement about Dark Sun's lack of armour being a "perfect fit" with 4E only confirms my suspicions. First, they publish a ton of classes, feats, powers, and features that focus on light armour, neglecting heavy armour almost altogether, and now they're going to publish an entire setting in which it's impossible for me to play a knight in steel plate armour. I couldn't have fun in such a setting.
No thanks. Not for me.
I begin to fear that D&D has room for my playstyle anymore, and all the crowing over this horrible setting just tells me how far from its roots the fandom has drifted while I got left behind. I can't get enough of traditional fantasy; Dark Sun is just too radical a departure from what I like to make me even think about looking in its direction.
A) you can't please everyone, this time it's not you but that doesn't give you the right to bash everyone else, I'm sure if it was Dragonlance you would be gloating at all the people who like Dark Sun.
B) I love high fantasy too, but refuse to paint myself into one corner with D&D, that's what REALLY has made it a great game, diversity, not fighters in heavy armor, and I've been playing since 1981.
C) No one is forcing you to buy it, why be angry? Save your money and join SCA so you can wear real armor.
As for me, I'm ecstatic. Dark Sun here I come! Of course, I could care less if we never see another traditional fantasy setting again. I mean, it would be sad for the fans that like those things. I would be upset that those fans were not getting what they wanted out of the game. But traditional fantasy is nothing I want to spend my money on. Eberron, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Planescape are my cup of tea.
Same deal here. I am hopeful that with saying this:
Second, one of the factors we've looked at in planning our settings is the degree to which a setting strays from the standard D&D medieval fantasy feel. Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Mystara -- those are all pretty close to baseline fantasy. Eberron strays only a little farther afield, with its pseudo-technological elements (airships, warforged, lightning rail). Dark Sun is something very different, and we felt it was time to show the breadth of what’s possible in the game, just what a broad swathe D&D’s kind of fantasy can cover.
That we will continue to see settings like Dark Sun for a while to come. I really hope they pursue the idea of showcasing the range of fantasy possible with D&D. There is just so much to be done; Planescape, Dark Sun, Eberron, Ravenloft, Spelljammer, entirely new concepts, etc.
I am also glad though even with me putting Eberron on the list. That they see that overall it still fits fairly close too traditional. This makes me hopeful of them truly going wild with concepts, and not just being traditional with one little addition here and there.
C) No one is forcing you to buy it, why be angry?
I'm not angry; just disappointed. I know I don't have to buy it, but I hate to see the company waste resources on printing something I won't buy that could have otherwise been spent printing something that I'd have liked...
Save your money and join SCA so you can wear real armor.
How do you think I spend the rest of my waking hours when I'm not playing D&D (or working)? ;)
I'm not angry; just disappointed. I know I don't have to buy it, but I hate to see the company waste resources on printing something I won't buy that could have otherwise been spent printing something that I'd have liked...
They are not "wasting" their efforts on anything. Just look at how many people around here are ecstatic to hear that Dark Sun is being released! Obviously, zero waste.
Poor WhiteHarness...there IS a certain lack of incentives to be in heavy armor for some classes. A few new heavy armor classes wouldn't be bad either.
Dark Sun is making summoned plate armor really awesome. If I remember right wearing armor in combat wasn't the problem, it was spending long periods of time in it.
Well, that and actually finding it. A full suit of magical full plate would be a (dragon)king's ransom.
I'm not angry; just disappointed. I know I don't have to buy it, but I hate to see the company waste resources on printing something I won't buy that could have otherwise been spent printing something that I'd have liked...
It's only a waste to you (1 person) and not to all the fans who love DS or are getting ready to love it (many persons)
"Some times the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"
(seriously, do I have to say who that was?)
My point is, be dissapointed, you have that right. What right you do not have is to bash the people who aren't dissapointed with your opinion.
My wife will be ******, because she's a huge Dragonlance fan, but cest la vie.
So, will one of the classic Dark Sun races creep into the last unknown slot in PHB3? If so, which one?
Also, the biggest thing I remember from 2nd ed DS was the wild psionic talents that practically everyone got (to give them enough of a buff to survive), I wonder if/how that will be incorporated into 4e!?
Lastly, on the subject of getting Warforged into DS, I'd say they need a CANNON refluff, like a sidebar "Warforged in Arthas", in the DSPG that says something like 'Warforged on Arthus are the product of experiments by various sorcerer kings. Normal people fear them to much to attack them. In addition, due to the scarcity of Iron, most warforged on arthus are plated with Obsidian or Magically hardened wood (*Iron Wood Ritual)."
That sort of thing.
The best was still one of my friends trying to "death from above" in the gladiator pits, and missed the beat horribly. His thri-kreen gladiator just got absolutely crushed.
My wife will be ******, because she's a huge Dragonlance fan, but cest la vie.
Have a comfy couch I hope? lol
I have been playing the various incarnations of D&D since 1978, I have been with it from First Edition until now, and have played in every setting TSR/WotC ever published, and a number of D20 campaigns as well. I have to say that my least favorites settings are Dark Sun, Birthright, and Eberron, in that order. I have no desire to invest in this setting next year, I am extremely disappointed that the next setting wasn't Ravenloft, Dragonlance, or Greyhawk.
Dragonlance and Greyhawk. Ugggh. WotC needs to make a vomit emoticon.
What is Dark Sun all about? Rather, what makes it different from other worlds?
OFF-TOPIC: Do Campaign Guides for settings have any crunch in them, like monsters or something?
Dragonlance and Greyhawk. Ugggh. WotC needs to make a vomit emoticon.
hahahahahahahaha, now now, play fair.
It's only a waste to you (1 person) and not to all the fans who love DS or are getting ready to love it (many persons)
I'm not the only person who has expressed dissatisfaction with WotC's decision. Not even in this thread...
What right you do not have is to bash the people who aren't dissapointed with your opinion.
Who's bashing? Okay, so maybe "waste" was a poor choice of words, but my disappointment stands.
Also, the biggest thing I remember from 2nd ed DS was the wild psionic talents that practically everyone got (to give them enough of a buff to survive), I wonder if/how that will be incorporated into 4e!?
I'm hoping that just like FR had Spellplagued and Eberron had Dragonmarks that Wild Talents will be Dark Sun's divergent mechanic. I dunno how they will do it, but it will be fun to see (if they do it, which they better).
I think we will see it, since on ENWorld, WoTC Developer, Logan Bonner said Dark Sun would have; "Anyway, I can't say much about it. I will mention that people who are looking for new, innovative crunch won't be disappointed!" So if that is so, no reason to exclude Wild Talents from that.
so now that we know, I am curious how this will effect DDi over the next few months considering they have been pretty good about the previews months in advance.
Dark Sun is my favorite setting. End of story. I will be buying this playing more than ever. I am curious what will changes, but if they stay true to the original box set, I can only hope to be happy with what they do.
I am a bit curious if this will clue us in to some of the MM3 monsters.
ok, so I guess the truth is, now that we know...there are lots of questions.
Thankyou Wizards for finally putting out a setting that the fans truly have been impatient for. Thankyou for letting DS see the light of the day under 4e.
Okay, I've never played in an official setting (but I have the Ebberon and FR player's guides) so I must ask,
What is Dark Sun all about? Rather, what makes it different from other worlds?
OFF-TOPIC: Do Campaign Guides for settings have any crunch in them, like monsters or something?
1) To describe Dark Sun I would say: take "Dune" (the planet arrakis), take the sort of primitive feudalism of ancient history (ancient Egypt roughly), the brutality of Conan the Barbarian, and throw in some psionics
2) Monsters are in campaign guides, but if you only want that kind of crunch I suggest getting a D&DI membership where you can easily access that info without having the book.
Pirates of the Carrabean 4e more or less
Okay, I've never played in an official setting (but I have the Ebberon and FR player's guides) so I must ask,
What is Dark Sun all about? Rather, what makes it different from other worlds?
Its a post-apocalyptic planet wide desert wasteland, the remains of a magical society that was far more advanced than Eberron, but which plunged itself into massive destructive wars, and literally drained the life out of their planet with their magic (which is powered by life-forces surrounding it). Many races are gone (stuff like gnomes and orcs were exterminated in genocidal wars of the last age). Many are not the way you remember them (halflings have become tribes of cannabilistic homicidal maniacs, elves are vicious tribal hunters that roam the wilderness, and dwarves don't have a single hair on their body). The civilization that has rebuilt itself on the ashes of the near dead world is composed of a couple of city states, each of which is ruled by an extremely powerful sorcerer king attempting to undergo a transformation into a dragon. Slavery is rampant. Good exists in the cracks of society, buried under the deeds that the remnants of Athas's civilization must perform in order to survive. Metal is rare. Clothing is scarce (think pictures from the old Conan comics). People are mean. Oh, and thri-kreen and half-giants are playable races.
OFF-TOPIC: Do Campaign Guides for settings have any crunch in them, like monsters or something?
They have monster stats, but they are mostly fluff. The Players Guides have a lot of crunch.
so now that we know, I am curious how this will effect DDi over the next few months considering they have been pretty good about the previews months in advance.
Well, the Artificer Playtest came out in July, a year before Eberron. So there is a precedent for previews fairly early on. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see this weekend a special DDI preview for Dark Sun, or next month.
The way I'd deal with the four arms is quite simple. One set can hold stuff, but not weild anything or use properties or power from items. Switching from an extra hand to a normal hand is a free action and you could grab with your extra arms. I would also give them bonuses when grabbing because of those big extra arms (and feat where they gain combat advantage or something against foes they are grabbing).
Elegant, flavorful, balanced.
Hmmm. Racial quickdraw.
I like it. I like it alot.
Its a post-apocalyptic planet wide desert wasteland, the remains of a magical society that was far more advanced than Eberron, but which plunged itself into massive destructive wars, and literally drained the life out of their planet with their magic (which is powered by life-forces surrounding it). Many races are gone (stuff like gnomes and orcs were exterminated in genocidal wars of the last age). Many are not the way you remember them (halflings have become tribes of cannabilistic homicidal maniacs, elves are vicious tribal hunters that roam the wilderness, and dwarves don't have a single hair on their body). The civilization that has rebuilt itself on the ashes of the near dead world is composed of a couple of city states, each of which is ruled by an extremely powerful sorcerer king attempting to undergo a transformation into a dragon. Slavery is rampant. Good exists in the cracks of society, buried under the deeds that the remnants of Athas's civilization must perform in order to survive. Metal is rare. Clothing is scarce (think pictures from the old Conan comics). People are mean. Oh, and thri-kreen and half-giants are playable races.
Noo not the Gnomelies
but at least the Orcs are gone.Sounds pretty nice...
I'm not angry; just disappointed.
I hate, Hate, HATE
Oookay. No anger implied in your first post. ;)
I can't get enough of traditional fantasy; Dark Sun is just too radical a departure from what I like to make me even think about looking in its direction.
DnD is incredibly saturated with traditional fantasy as it is. You already have all your toys. Let some of the other kids play too.
Noo not the Gnomelies
Sounds pretty nice...
Say, did the article mention what class(es) will be in the book?
The announcement didn't cover details, but I'm sure there will be previews in Dragon over the next 12 months. Until then, have a looksies at this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun
(This is NOT to say it's a White Wolf product in terms of eroticism)
As for me, I'm ecstatic. Dark Sun here I come! Of course, I could care less if we never see another traditional fantasy setting again. I mean, it would be sad for the fans that like those things. I would be upset that those fans were not getting what they wanted out of the game. But traditional fantasy is nothing I want to spend my money on. Eberron, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, and Planescape are my cup of tea.
For the most part, I couldn't agree more.
We're all familiar with traditional fantasy. I think everyone who plays D&D has at least watched or read the LoTR trilogy. We all know it so well that there's very little reason to have more than one or two traditional settings.
My experience with Dark Sun is limited to a handful of gaming sessions, but I definitely applaud the decision to release it in 4e. That being said, I am much more eager for an arabian nights, modern, horror, or jidaigeki setting than I am for Dark Sun. At least DS' release shows they're not going to bind themselves to the traditional settings. And that makes me rather excited to see what the next non-traditional one will be.
The thing that always got me so pumped about Dark Sun was the marriage of style and content. Brom's artwork was vital to establishing the early Dark Sun "vibe". I for one hope they still have rights to use some of the old artwork. Some of it was so evocative (and slightly erotic). That's why I mention Dune (the movie) as a similar feel. You had that very visceral vibe to the setting, really set it apart from traditional fantasy.
(This is NOT to say it's a White Wolf product in terms of eroticism)
I swear I saw mention somewhere I think on Twitter that while Brom is busy right now that he will try to do some internal artwork for the campaign.
I still hope the 2011 setting will be with a lot of naval travelling, pirates, fighting seamonsters and stuff.
Pirates of the Carrabean 4e more or less
Then vote for my choice of 2011 setting. Al-Quadim has a lot of that.
I begin to fear that D&D has room for my playstyle anymore, and all the crowing over this horrible setting just tells me how far from its roots the fandom has drifted while I got left behind. I can't get enough of traditional fantasy; Dark Sun is just too radical a departure from what I like to make me even think about looking in its direction.
FR and the default setting provide plenty of plain old traditional fantasy. The vast majority of supplements feed in to plain old traditional fantasy. The sword'n'board fighter has been an effective 4e build since day one. They just released Divine Power which made a Strength-based Paladin an effective, if not completely optimal, build. The following upcoming supplements directly support traditional fantasy tropes:
- E3
- Draconomicon II
- Plane Below
- Plane Above
- Hammerfast
- The next city book announced today, I can't remember the name.
- Revenge of the Giants
Really, you only have room to complain if you think this is some sort of zero sum game. Giving people options beyond Sword-n-board up front with Father Healbot and Mr. Stinky Robes in the back really doesn't take away from what you want.
We can talk about Races all we want, but I think they'll do what they did back in 2e which was to eradicate some and introduce new. I'm sure they'll create the Mul, Thri-Kreen and Half-Giants as campaign specific (I know, Thri-Kreen are on other worlds, but you all know what I'm saying.), while putting the axe to the Eladrin, Orcs and Dragonborn. The Dragonborn I'm assuming will be redesigned as the Dray which I'm really excited about.
I'm more interested in what they'll do to the classes. Now this is purely speculation as to what I would do with the classes if I were in control, but I know I'll be happy with whatever it is they create.
Let's take the Elemental Clerics for instance. Will they be just a Cleric class with different builds being that of the elements, or will each type of Elemental Cleric be it's own class? I hope for the latter because the each element works so well with it's own type of class and spec.
Imagine playing an Earth Cleric which takes the role of a Defender. Skin becomes hard as rock amplifying the AC of the Earth Cleric.
The rare Cleric of Water takes the role of the Leader. Using the life giving properties of water to channel spells to keep his friends healthy in the heat of battle.
Then there's the Fire Cleric which takes the role of a Striker. Those that dare defile the land with their reckless magic burn from the wrath of the Fire Cleric.
Finally there's the Cleric of Air which would take on the role of the Controller. Able to move his opponents to a more disadvantaged location on the battlefield with a huge gust of air or keep them in place with the power of a vortex.
The possibilities are endless as to what they can do with this setting I for one, can not wait. The people I game with now have never played in the burnt world of Athas, and I look forward to introducing them to a world with no Gods, no morality and above all...perhaps no hope for the future. Now that's imagination, and that is fantasy.
Thank you so much. Can't wait to start writing and submitting my own adventures for this setting.
Imagine playing an Earth Cleric which takes the role of a Defender. Skin becomes hard as rock amplifying the AC of the Earth Cleric.
The rare Cleric of Water takes the role of the Leader. Using the life giving properties of water to channel spells to keep his friends healthy in the heat of battle.
Then there's the Fire Cleric which takes the role of a Striker. Those that dare defile the land with their reckless magic burn from the wrath of the Fire Cleric.
Finally there's the Cleric of Air which would take on the role of the Controller. Able to move his opponents to a more disadvantaged location on the battlefield with a huge gust of air or keep them in place with the power of a vortex.
So the clerics should be the fantastic four?
So the clerics should be the fantastic four?
I guess that's one way of looking at it, and to keep with that theme the Defiler and Preserver can be the Dynamic Duo I guess.
I'm happy with my generic homebrew setting for now, so it'll save me a few bucks next year.
I dont think its very realistic to expect the cleric to be able to cover all the different roles. I think we'll be looking at different channel divinities for the various "elemental spirits" and perhaps some new elemental builds that don't actually alter the cleric's main role as leader.
Agreed.
I dont think its very realistic to expect the cleric to be able to cover all the different roles. I think we'll be looking at different channel divinities for the various "elemental spirits" and perhaps some new elemental builds that don't actually alter the cleric's main role as leader.
I was just saying that's where I would go with it if it were up to me. We don't know what the heck they're going to do but what I do think is that they'll make some big changes from the PHB to stay true to what the original campaign setting was. That's why I thought of the Cleric class in that way, as separate from the "traditional" Cleric of vanilla D&D. I don't think it's unrealistic with Dark Sun to have what I described, because it's a world that's far different than any other world and thus doesn't have to be held to the rules of other settings.
I'm excited as to what they might do with it, and I have no doubt it'll be what "most" are looking for.
I'm excited as to what they might do with it, and I have no doubt it'll be what "most" are looking for.
Damn it. I sound like an F'ing Dark Sun propoganda commercial.
I say to those people to GTFO of my internet.:P Bring on the elemental athasian cleric!;)
The Dark Sun setting is a pure jewel. My most memorable games were set in this campaign world. This is my best RPG experience all RPG games taken together.
I can't wait ! And my players too ! ;)
GO DARKSUN GO !
And 2 years of lackluster settings sales could really hurt the future of 4th and additional settings.
I don't think it's unrealistic with Dark Sun to have what I described, because it's a world that's far different than any other world and thus doesn't have to be held to the rules of other settings.
Yet still being bound by the scope of the 4e one PG, one CG, one adventure release schedule it's just is unrealistic if you compare to what the first two PGs contained.
FRPG: 2 races, 1.5 classes
EPG: 3 races, 1 class
You're idea already comes down to four full fledged classes and that's before any races to be included. Unless the DSPG is thrice as thick as the other two that seems like an unrealistic expectation
There were rumors a while back about an elemental power source. A class role being powered by each of the elements would be a cool way to do that, and would fit well with Dark Sun. WotC probably wouldn't put a whole power source with 4 classes into a campaign book though.
I think elemental, psionic and martial will be the dominating power sources on Athas
Yet another poor decision from WotC.
What a waste....
Yes, Dark Sun is a giant waste. It's, in fact, an entire planet-wide waste. The races living there have gotten used to it, though, but life there is difficult.
Damn it. I sound like an F'ing Dark Sun propoganda commercial.
BTW, real men use paint.
I've gotta ask - why are half-giants any different that what we've already got with Goliaths?
The answer to that question is sort of swingy. On one hand, you could probably make a fairly convincing half-giant skinned as a Goliath. On the other hand, some of the Goliath's class features don't really succeed at capturing the half-giant's feeling of "big" and "strong as a giant." They seem more geared towards fulfilling the role of "big" and "tough as a mountain." The two flavors are not quite the same.
I've gotta ask - why are half-giants any different that what we've already got with Goliaths?
Right off the top of my head, lets see.
They're not medium sized
They have nothing to do with the mountains
They wouldn't have mountain flavored racial traits
They don't revere primal powers (spirits of the land) as a whole race
They are nearly nothing alike when you read the "playing a goliath" section of the phb2, as Halfgiants are not defined with any of those characteristics.
Goliaths don't have alignment shifts daily.
Goliaths were not magically created
I think I'll stop there.;)
So in addition to half giants we will be getting half dwarves?
No, but there will probably be Muls.:P
I say to those people to GTFO of my internet.:P Bring on the elemental athasian cleric!;)
Wouldn't the Elemental 'cleric' be better suited to the Elemental power source?
And splitting roles up by element would just completely suck.
Wouldn't the Elemental 'cleric' be better suited to the Elemental power source?
And splitting roles up by element would just completely suck.
Yes! Handle the athasian cleric with the elemental power source and break the powers up similiar to what we see with Genasi.
[edit] as for seperate roles. I don't know if that would actually suck since clerics are very different depending on what sort of element they revere. Prime elemental clerics could take on seperate roles, so could paraelemental clerics.
As an after thought, Templar could be a PP.
Right off the top of my head, lets see.
They're not medium sized
They have nothing to do with the mountains
They wouldn't have mountain flavored racial traits
They don't revere primal powers (spirits of the land) as a whole race
They are nearly nothing alike when you read the "playing a goliath" section of the phb2, as Halfgiants are not defined with any of those characteristics.
Goliaths don't have alignment shifts daily.
Goliaths were not magically created
I think I'll stop there.;)
Of those objections though, only "They're not medium sized" presents any real barrier to recasting goliaths as half-giants. The rest is all fluff and flavor text and that has been changed for every other race in Dark Sun, so I can't imagine why it would have to be the same for Goliaths. After all, halflings aren't normally vicious cannibals nor are elves long legged nomads either.
Right off the top of my head, lets see.
They're not medium sized
There will never be a Large sized PC race in 4e. Get over it.
They have nothing to do with the mountains
And elves in Eberron worship their undead parents. Flavor is mutable.
They wouldn't have mountain flavored racial traits
What do Strong and Tough to Kill have to do with the mountains?
They don't revere primal powers (spirits of the land) as a whole race
Again, Elves in Eberron worship their undead parents, halfings in Eberron ride velociraptors across the plains. Given the whole 'cannibalistic halflings' flavor of Dark Sun, I think we can sufficiently reflavor the Goliath.
Goliaths don't have alignment shifts daily.
Alignment no longer means anything. Feel free to shift your alignment every fifteen seconds for all the mechanical benefit it'll give you.
Goliaths were not magically created
Again, nothing a little seasoning won't correct.
So far, we have Large Sized PCs, Flavor is Different, and Alignment.
I see you and raise you cannibalistic halflings.
So far, we have Large Sized PCs, Flavor is Different, and Alignment.
I see you and raise you cannibalistic halflings.
I call your bet with my last post...
I'm willing to accept goliaths in place of halfgiants to avoid wotc destroying halfgiants for the sake of mechanics. Thats not an issue with me.;)
Of those objections though, only "They're not medium sized" presents any real barrier to recasting goliaths as half-giants. The rest is all fluff and flavor text and that has been changed for every other race in Dark Sun, so I can't imagine why it would have to be the same for Goliaths. After all, halflings aren't normally vicious cannibals nor are elves long legged nomads either.
Again, what I posted were not objections in any way, shape or form. The guy asked for differences and I gave them.
[edit] Infact, you will quickly learn that I am FAR MORE ACCEPTING that most long time DS fans of changes needed. Many DS fans outright said "Pah!, To the land of fire with wotc and with 4e DS!"
Dragonlance and Greyhawk. Ugggh. WotC needs to make a vomit emoticon.
Go here: http://smileys.on-my-web.com/categorie-Disgusting.html
I hope that this isnt the "jump the shark" moment for WOTC and 4th edition. Its taking a large risk going back to a setting that has been out of print for over a decade.
And 2 years of lackluster settings sales could really hurt the future of 4th and additional settings.
I think Dark Sun is a pretty safe bet. There has been tremendous Dark Sun buzz on the various dedicated DnD boards i visit for quite awhile now, more so than any other setting, not to mention glowing talk of the setting at actual conventions. While settings like Dragonlance or Greyhawk are classic, there seems to be at least as much seething hate or apathy for these settings in the community because they are perceived of as too standard. Don't forget that the spotlight article stated that Dark Sun is being released by popular demand.
in the end, can't wait for the Dark Sun update but anything we dont think fits to the 2E style of a very harsh world, will be house ruled anyways...
next summer can;t come fast enough :D
Sanjay
I'm looking forward to seeing muls (a favorite race, use 'em in my v3.5 homebrew setting, sans psionics), maybe 'advanced beings' like dragons (epic defilers) and avangions (epic preservers), and certainly cannibal halfings ;). This is gonna be a fun, very unique setting I think, can't wait.
I'm more excited about Dark Sun
but I wouldn't have been disappointed if they had chosen Dragonlance as the next setting. Years ago, I read Chronicles, Legends, and Tales; some of the earliest D&D novels for me. I lost interest though after Dragons of Summer Flame and the Saga rules. A 4e setting would have brought me back ;). Hopefully, Dragonlance 4e will show up in a few years.
Duke, I guess I assumed you were on the side of "Golaith CANNOT be Half-Giant
".There has been tremendous Dark Sun buzz on the various dedicated DnD boards i visit for quite awhile now, more so than any other setting, not to mention glowing talk of the setting at actual conventions.
I've never played Dark Sun before, and I'm super excited to see what it has to offer. I'd have been less excited for Dragonlance, honestly, but I still would have given it a shot.
Big and Strong is pretty much the same as Big, Strong (+2 Str) and Tough, in my book. But I'll admit I could be wrong. I was a big proponent of Deva = Kalashtar, and look how that ended up.
Duke, I guess I assumed you were on the side of "Golaith CANNOT be Half-Giant
I've never played Dark Sun before, and I'm super excited to see what it has to offer. I'd have been less excited for Dragonlance, honestly, but I still would have given it a shot.
Well, they can't. They can take the place of half giants, but in the end, they are goliaths and not halfgiants. Two very seperate races.;) Now don't get me wrong as I love Golies.
Dark Sun, though, sounds interesting. Different enough from standard D&D to be...well, different, but still familiar enough to be D&D.
And, not to upset anybody, or anything...but everyone else seems to be saying whether or not they would have preferred Dragon Lance...I would not have bought Dragon Lance.
I hope that this isnt the "jump the shark" moment for WOTC and 4th edition. Its taking a large risk going back to a setting that has been out of print for over a decade.
And 2 years of lackluster settings sales could really hurt the future of 4th and additional settings.
2 years sir? Eberron is selling furiously and has been received with high acclaim. At least, I am assuming your discussing Eberron. Otherwise, I wonder where you get the clairvoyance to pronounce that the 2011 setting will flop.
2 years sir? Eberron is selling furiously and has been received with high acclaim. At least, I am assuming your discussing Eberron. Otherwise, I wonder where you get the clairvoyance to pronounce that the 2011 setting will flop.
Indeed. At my store (not my LGS, but the book store I manage), the Eberron CS has had the hardiest sales of any 4e book since the core releases.
Whatever is best for each! :P
We have FR, which is classic fantasy, Eberron, which seems to be somewhat steempunk inspired, and now a post-apocalyptic setting.
I wonder how they're how going to implement the life-draining properties of magic though. I wonder if it will just be a fluff thing, or if there will actually be mechanical effects to this.
Right off the top of my head, lets see.
They're not medium sized
They have nothing to do with the mountains
They wouldn't have mountain flavored racial traits
They don't revere primal powers (spirits of the land) as a whole race
They are nearly nothing alike when you read the "playing a goliath" section of the phb2, as Halfgiants are not defined with any of those characteristics.
Goliaths don't have alignment shifts daily.
Goliaths were not magically created
I think I'll stop there.;)
They won't be large and won't have alignment shifts daily in 4th edition, either, assuming they do come to exist.
And they may just replace half-giants with goliaths and refluff goliaths for that world.
They won't be large and won't have alignment shifts daily in 4th edition, either, assuming they do come to exist.
And they may just replace half-giants with goliaths and refluff goliaths for that world.
I agree as I did when this was first covered. I'd rather see 4e goliaths as 4e goliaths in DS than destroyed 4e abominations called half giants.
That is all.
Oh, and that Campaign Guide looks amazingly awesome. Ah, nostalgia city.
w00t!!!
Just announced on GenCon.
Exactly what I thought when I saw the headline. I love the fact that they are also re-releasing the novels. A great choice all around.
Have a comfy couch I hope? lol
Well, it's not like I was the one who made the decision.
So, no severe beating for me. Although the devs may want to avoid Kansas City for a few weeks. :P
Whew, the announcement of Dark Sun is live at #gencon, so I can finally reveal I am lead developer on Dark Sun. #dnd.
I don't know if its true. I don't see his name on the front cover of Dark Sun Campaign Guide cover. But if it is, its a good thing. That guys work on d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga (as well as D&D 4e) has been amazing!
EDIT: Ok, I am seeing confirmation about this all over the place. It is definitly true. WOOT! Go Rodney! Congrats on landing the lead on this project!
Peace,
Fallstorm
My only real experience with DS was when I got the first box, my players all wanted to use Athasian chars in FR, and never wanted the world of Athas.
Have fun everyone!
The half giant before got +4 str, +2 con -2 int,-2 wis, -2 cha. The +4 str considering the minimum rule was 17 str, meant str 21-24. THis meant that he generally had the highest str, above what other races couldeven roll (exceptMuls I think, who had +2 str and thus could get 22).
But the idea for the half giant wasn't just combat. It was harder to roleplay.People can joke however they want, but truly acting, like a scitzophrenic character, that is strong as an elephant, can'tmake up his mind, and is so huge, they have to slaaeep outdoors isn't that easy (if you want to roleplay it very well). Also, his food/equipment cost 2-3x more...which could be a problem for the party.
In the end, it comes down to...if the players only care that their character has to do the same damage as everyone else, fine...they won'tlike a house rule ormore unique races, etc....if the players don'tcare and want a good time;don'tworry about what wizards does.A few house rules, if thought out, won't destroy the game.
here are examples of how we have done Dark Sun characters.
Half Giant - +7 str (considering giants have str around 28-32 and titans up to 35...although in our games, a titan if i used it would be str 40+)...anyways..+3 con, -2 int/wis/cha, extra d8 HP each level.
Uncontrolled emotions - (didnthave a better name for it) If the half giant is reduced to bloodied, he must make a will save vs the attack roll the enemy made. if failed, he starts losing control and will go berzerk. attacking anything around him (including anyone perceived as a threat based on their actions)
The half giant also is very susceptible to mental attacks and suggestion. Such effects have a +2 chance to succeed and extremely charismatic characters have a better chance topull the half giant totheir favour...treat skill checks such as diplomacy, intimidate, etc as being +5 for opponent (unless intimidate leads to blows, in which case the half giant will prob win).
3X cost for equipment. 4x cost for food/water. 10-12 ft tall
thri kreen - +4 dex, +2 wis, + 1 str, -4 cha
2 attacks base..at paragon can take a feat for4 attacks but the last 2 attacks are done at the end of the round... bite attack can be done as a full round attack...and causes a mild poison, can jump 30 ft up or 50 ft forward, have their own racial weapons that they start with if they are not slaves.do not need to sleep...immune to sleep effects. reactions vs humanoids never treated as good and diplomacy etc are at -5 with a thri kreen. can't wear armours unless specially made and even then..can't cover lower body so treated as peicemail. thri kreen doesn't get benefit of dex bonus if using armours
etc
all races are done uplike that for flavour.
We also use heat rules. You can fight/heavy exertion for # rnds straight as per con stat * 3 BUT if you go over, each round make a fortitude save with +8, then going down each turn. Muls on the other hand can go con hours. Half giants tire out faster due to their bodies needing more water, etc and can do con stat * 2.
We use a custom casting system, but in that system or the core rulebook versions; defiling, if the caster chooses it, can increas epower of spells by defiling. The more defiling, can even put some harmful effects on body at cost ofmaking spells morepowerful. Preserver spells are weaker but no harm anywhere.
In the end, it'swhatever your friends are happy with... it'sa game and no right rules, wrong rules; no right edition; wrong edition...all that matters is what is best for you.
Have fun gaming...but prepare, are you ready to Face the Fire of the Darksun?
*happy dance*
Sanjay
Sorry DL fans, maybe they'll let Margaret Weiss & Co. put out Dragonlance in short order (IMO, Dragonlance saved D&D from plunging into obscurity back around the time it came out).
Now I wonder if Birthright will ever come back out? I'd love to see how 4E would handle ruling a kingdom...
Sorry DL fans, maybe they'll let Margaret Weiss & Co. put out Dragonlance in short order (IMO, Dragonlance saved D&D from plunging into obscurity back around the time it came out).
Now I wonder if Birthright will ever come back out? I'd love to see how 4E would handle ruling a kingdom...
I am glad they are rebooting the 1st box set. Tyr needs a power mad Sorcerer-King.
Defiler magic will be neat to see. The Primal classes represent quite well in DS. The shaman ports better to 'Spirits of the Land" than druids in 2e. Divine classes (cleric, paladin, avenger) could be reskinned as Templars or servants of the various elemental cults.
Looking forward to being eaten by a pack of halflings or enslaved to figh in the arena of Draj.
And yet, here's the one thing that bugs me right off the top...
(and no, I know this is only vast speculation, but we've all seen it before)
In the interview when asked about PCs in DS he says that they'll have whole hosts of options not available to a typical D&D fighter...
This leads me to scary thoughts that go back to original Dark Sun, like, Character Trees and characters whose power curves were vastly different from the standard game...
God forbid they should create a setting again where all the rules push it away from everything else established instead of being compatible.
And since the design team seems to have a great big happy for this since it was their baby before... I see wild days ahead, wild days...
(To be fair though, that entire preview of 2010 article left me kinda cold, so...)
I'm gonna guess that some of the dark sun classes use HP or surges to do fun stuff... since the whole idea is that magic sapps the vitality of the world this just makes sense. I have a bunch of homebrew feats that feed off of vitality, surges, and even second winds that make the game riskier for players who want to use them but more dramatic when it goes their way. I see darksun as grittier and harder... actually a 4th ed that I want to play.
I think the Muls will get the gnome or half elf treatment- they'll look and act a lot like Mul's but be a new race with a new backstory and be well enough thier own.
I love it!
Yeah...
Uh...
Wow.
Also: Awesome. So very awesome. Though... now I'll have to buy another set of setting books. *finger-snap* Darn.
Looking forward to 2010. Here's hoping we see Dragonlance at some point later on down the line. Birthright, too... that was another setting I was always kind of sad had never made the transition to 3rd/3.5.
My reading is that we will not see any of these settings during the life of 4e.
And a good thing too. ;)
Dark Sun gives me good shivers.
For me and my players, the difference is the overall themes and style.Yes, you could say a goliath is strong and tough and thus, is like a giant. The difference is, the half giant really gave off the feeling of being strong, above and beyond what others could. A goliath with str 15 after character rolls, with +2 becomes 17... but another person couldroll a 17. there is no difference between them.
The half giant before got +4 str, +2 con -2 int,-2 wis, -2 cha. The +4 str considering the minimum rule was 17 str, meant str 21-24. THis meant that he generally had the highest str, above what other races couldeven roll (exceptMuls I think, who had +2 str and thus could get 22).
But the idea for the half giant wasn't just combat. It was harder to roleplay.People can joke however they want, but truly acting, like a scitzophrenic character, that is strong as an elephant, can'tmake up his mind, and is so huge, they have to slaaeep outdoors isn't that easy (if you want to roleplay it very well). Also, his food/equipment cost 2-3x more...which could be a problem for the party.
In the end, it comes down to...if the players only care that their character has to do the same damage as everyone else, fine...they won'tlike a house rule ormore unique races, etc....if the players don'tcare and want a good time;don'tworry about what wizards does.A few house rules, if thought out, won't destroy the game.
here are examples of how we have done Dark Sun characters.
Half Giant - +7 str (considering giants have str around 28-32 and titans up to 35...although in our games, a titan if i used it would be str 40+)...anyways..+3 con, -2 int/wis/cha, extra d8 HP each level.
Uncontrolled emotions - (didnthave a better name for it) If the half giant is reduced to bloodied, he must make a will save vs the attack roll the enemy made. if failed, he starts losing control and will go berzerk. attacking anything around him (including anyone perceived as a threat based on their actions)
The half giant also is very susceptible to mental attacks and suggestion. Such effects have a +2 chance to succeed and extremely charismatic characters have a better chance topull the half giant totheir favour...treat skill checks such as diplomacy, intimidate, etc as being +5 for opponent (unless intimidate leads to blows, in which case the half giant will prob win).
3X cost for equipment. 4x cost for food/water. 10-12 ft tall
thri kreen - +4 dex, +2 wis, + 1 str, -4 cha
2 attacks base..at paragon can take a feat for4 attacks but the last 2 attacks are done at the end of the round... bite attack can be done as a full round attack...and causes a mild poison, can jump 30 ft up or 50 ft forward, have their own racial weapons that they start with if they are not slaves.do not need to sleep...immune to sleep effects. reactions vs humanoids never treated as good and diplomacy etc are at -5 with a thri kreen. can't wear armours unless specially made and even then..can't cover lower body so treated as peicemail. thri kreen doesn't get benefit of dex bonus if using armours
etc
all races are done uplike that for flavour.
We also use heat rules. You can fight/heavy exertion for # rnds straight as per con stat * 3 BUT if you go over, each round make a fortitude save with +8, then going down each turn. Muls on the other hand can go con hours. Half giants tire out faster due to their bodies needing more water, etc and can do con stat * 2.
We use a custom casting system, but in that system or the core rulebook versions; defiling, if the caster chooses it, can increas epower of spells by defiling. The more defiling, can even put some harmful effects on body at cost ofmaking spells morepowerful. Preserver spells are weaker but no harm anywhere.
In the end, it'swhatever your friends are happy with... it'sa game and no right rules, wrong rules; no right edition; wrong edition...all that matters is what is best for you.
Have fun gaming...but prepare, are you ready to Face the Fire of the Darksun?
*happy dance*
Sanjay
you that this would completly brake 4e ?
I'm mostly happy about the part of the announcement that sticks a knife into Greyhawk, Dragonlance and Mystara and then gives it a good twist.
My reading is that we will not see any of these settings during the life of 4e.
And a good thing too. ;)
I think we'll see at least one of them in 4e's lifetime. Just not for another couple of years. Greyhawk is one I see least likely since it's all but the default PoL as it is. Dragonlance still has it's following so has a chance. Mystara hasn't been touched in a long time and if encompassed in it's BECMI whole actually has a wide mix, especially if they include it's Hollow World aspect. The issue with that is it would need even more DDi support than FR since the PG and CG wouldn't be nearly thick enough to cover what makes it stand out.
I assume it: "you thought this would break 4E?"
---
No, from all the house rules we use due to players using custom planescape races, spells, etc and us not being happy with the casters, cleric, etc even in old editions, we have developed our own unique god rules, etc. so i'm pretty used to do house rules within 3E and 4E...overall, the changes does make the party more powerful than normal, but it's not something hte system can't handle..it just means if they are level X, them them like X+1 or X+2.
THe custom race rules? no..break -- not at all....i have a lillendi (able to fly) in the current game we DM and her flight hasn't broken anything. It won't, unless the DM really doesn't know how to handle it.
Sanjay
I mean Darksun = yay for me, but I'd think a lot of people would like to know what the new class is even if they weren't a Dark sun fan?
Have there been any hints as to the new class?
I mean Darksun = yay for me, but I'd think a lot of people would like to know what the new class is even if they weren't a Dark sun fan?
I am certain there will be previews in Dragon real soon, like someone else pointed out, they had the artificer and warforged rule previews way before Eberron was released.
Classes:
Gladiator (Primal) this one is a sure thing in my opinion
Defiler (Arcane) not too sure on this one
Preserver (Elemental) this goes hand in hand with Defiler
Races:
(the three mentioned in the passage I read)
Half-giant- this is a MUST for the fans
Thri-Kreen- another MUST for fans
Mul- this is the one up in the air, could be dropped
Like I said, I'm sure they will announce upcoming previews in Dragon, so I will be renewing my subscription for a whole year!
BTW, real men use paint.
Awesome dude!Classes:
Gladiator (Primal) this one is a sure thing in my opinion
Defiler (Arcane) not too sure on this one
Preserver (Elemental) this goes hand in hand with Defiler
I really disagree: those are quite possible as builds, feats and multiclass-only options. None of the three deserves a full class treatment. I really hope instead that they'll give us the first Elemental class, with the Elemental power source tied to the Elemental Chaos in original ways, not to the 4 elements or simply elemental damage. That would be arcane.
I just got done reading the 1993 TSR Master Catalog celebrating 25 years of D&D, lol. It's the only thing that's not in storage that has to do with 2E, so I figured I'd read the Dark Sun entry for fun. (it's going to be a looooooong year) After reading it, here are my guesses for content:
Classes:
Gladiator (Primal) this one is a sure thing in my opinion
Defiler (Arcane) not too sure on this one
Preserver (Elemental) this goes hand in hand with Defiler
Races:
(the three mentioned in the passage I read)
Half-giant- this is a MUST for the fans
Thri-Kreen- another MUST for fans
Mul- this is the one up in the air, could be dropped
Like I said, I'm sure they will announce upcoming previews in Dragon, so I will be renewing my subscription for a whole year!
I doubt we will get them as base classes. Gladiator could be a PP. defiler and preserver can be done with two seperate feats. Also preserver and defiler are both arcane and not elemental. Elemental represents athasian clerics.
I'm also a huge fan of half giants, but I'd rather see goliaths take their place unless halfgiants can be done in a way that doesnt destroy them.
I really disagree: those are quite possible as builds, feats and multiclass-only options. None of the three deserves a full class treatment. I really hope instead that they'll give us the first Elemental class, with the Elemental power source tied to the Elemental Chaos in original ways, not to the 4 elements or simply elemental damage. That would be arcane.
What class would that be? Remember, they said they are going back to the original boxed set for the timeline, and this is a re-launch not a re-do, so there might not be a place for creation of something entirely new. Personally. now that I think about it, I think the more likely class other than Gladiator would be a Psionics class, since the release of the PHB3 is in March. (and if you noticed, the Preserver guess I made was an Elemental class opposed to the Defiler's Arcane class)
What class would that be? Remember, they said they are going back to the original boxed set for the timeline, and this is a re-launch not a re-do, so there might not be a place for creation of something entirely new. Personally. now that I think about it, I think the more likely class other than Gladiator would be a Psionics class, since the release of the PHB3 is in March. (and if you noticed, the Preserver guess I made was an Elemental class opposed to the Defiler's Arcane class)
If preservers drew power from the elements, it would not require power draw from life energy, which would defeat the purpose of its ethical outlook on power draw and it would no longer be the polar opposite of the defiler. It would become a druid or a divine spellcaster.
The whole point of preservers and defilers is that they do things differently but are at the core, the same. Defilers can renounce their ways and become preservers exactly like preservers can choose to defile. Making them draw from different power sources would completely change the point of them existing.
If preservers drew power from the elements, it would not require power draw from life energy, which would defeat the purpose of its ethical outlook on power draw and it would no longer be the polar opposite of the defiler. It would become a druid or a divine spellcaster.
The whole point of preservers and defilers is that they do things differently but are at the core, the same. Defilers can renounce their ways and become preservers exactly like preservers can choose to defile. Making them draw from different power sources would completely change the point of them existing.
That's why I see them as builds of the same class, or alternatively one for Sorcerers one for Wizards. Don't know about Warlocks.
As for the new class, of course I wouldn't mind seeing another Psionic. I'm aware they don't want to change the setting, but a new class doesn't really change the setting unless it's too specific or has too much impact.
Templar could also be a base class as it is fundamentally different from the cleric.
Psionic classes are also possibles. The defiler and preserver COULD be builds. Thats a completely valid option using a simple feat as a requirement towards the dragon and avangion ED's which are fundamentally different from each other after a certain point.
The whole point of preservers and defilers is that they do things differently but are at the core, the same. Defilers can renounce their ways and become preservers exactly like preservers can choose to defile. Making them draw from different power sources would completely change the point of them existing.
I was thinking that after I wrote my last post. Initially I was thinking that the "balance with nature" would put them in a different class, but you are right, they are the opposite side of the same coin. Perhaps they can leave the Defilers as standard Arcane classes, and make the Preservers a bit different. They could borrow the augment point mechanic from Psions and use that to boost their magic instead of taking all of their power from nature.
Just a thought....
I was thinking that after I wrote my last post. Initially I was thinking that the "balance with nature" would put them in a different class, but you are right, they are the opposite side of the same coin. Perhaps they can leave the Defilers as standard Arcane classes, and make the Preservers a bit different. They could borrow the augment point mechanic from Psions and use that to boost their magic instead of taking all of their power from nature.
Just a thought....
I'd actually suggest the opposite. Preservers don't draw enough power to make them much different than standard arcane casters but defilers draw intense amounts of life energy to cast spells. This results in defiling magic being more powerful than that of a standard preserver spell caster at the same level. So I'd target defilers for the augmentable options, keeping in the form and flavor that defilers can caster more powerful spells at the same level as preservers because of how they handle energy draw.
Very good idea you had! I just had to use a mirror to turn it backwards.:D
I was thinking that after I wrote my last post. Initially I was thinking that the "balance with nature" would put them in a different class, but you are right, they are the opposite side of the same coin. Perhaps they can leave the Defilers as standard Arcane classes, and make the Preservers a bit different. They could borrow the augment point mechanic from Psions and use that to boost their magic instead of taking all of their power from nature.
Just a thought....
Doesn't make any sense. Preservers aught to be the one that are pretty much the same as the base class. Defilers aught to be the ones that have a new mechanic, something that draws extra energy from the land surrounding them, makes their powers more potent, but at a hefty cost.
If anything, perhaps it aught to be an option available to all arcane characters. Those who choose not to use it are preservers. Those who do are defilers. That would be sort of neat.
So a level 10 power would deplete 10 squares? Thats would seriously burn through a map, fast! It also leads to how casting underground or in structures will be handled in 4e. Athasian wizards always have to becareful where they traveled because they couldn't always depend on their magic.
There are ways for wizards to contain and save life energy for later use, so thats one option around the issue.
I'd really like to know how wotc plans on handling depletion rules for defilers. Something like whenever a defiler casts a spell, he depletes the life energy equal to 1 square per level of power?
So a level 10 power would deplete 10 squares? Thats would seriously burn through a map, fast! It also leads to how casting underground or in structures will be handled in 4e. Athasian wizards always have to becareful where they traveled because they couldn't always depend on their magic.
That sounds way too micro-managy for 4E. My bet is that destroying plant life is just going to be fluff. The mechanics of defiling will have everything to do with tapping healing surges or perhaps even hp. The easiest way will be to steal your allies' surges/hp, sort of like the Dark pact warlock, though there may be ways to drain your enemies' hp with some sort of attack or curse-like mechanic.
I like the idea that someone on ENworld came up with. Preserving gets refluffed as not actually draining life force at all. It makes no sense to think that preservers would be able to cast spells in the desert anyway. Defiling is a special brand of arcane casting that uses life energy for more powerful effects. The world was devastated by those who sought to abuse this more powerful form of arcane casting.
As Cyber-Dave said, all characters will be preservers by default: arcane magic doesn't inherently need life force. They will, however, be able to take defiling feats and PPs that allow them to tap surges or hp from allies, and perhaps foes, to gain extra perks with their casting (higher damage, better range, more area, etc...). If they want these more powerful effects, someone has to pay.
Oh I'm sure DS will include unique and new classes for the setting. Maybe the gladiator will be a base class since its fundamentally different from the fighter and barbarian and is NOT the same as the pit fighter PP.
Seriously, have you missed the Dragon article with zounds of gladiatorial feats and options? There's the gladiator. Dark Sun could just expand on that or go as far as making it a build for some class, but really, nothing is farther from the class philosophy than the gladiator. If we make a gladiator class, we also have to make a Vigilante, a Duelist, an Archer, a Sentinel, a Horseman, and a Burglar class... Classes must give the player tools to represent a broad archetype, specific things are the domain of feats, maybe small optional class features, limited number of powers.
EDIT: Also, by definition both historical and fantastic of the gladiator, it's implicit but clear that there are gladiators of different classes so how would you keep that if you make a Gladiator class? The only way to make a class out of a gladiatorial concept is by making a Martial controller and possibly not call it gladiator but something else, then state that they're typical gladiators (net and trident gladiators were controller types...)
DEFILING MAGIC [DEFILER]
Prerequisites: Any arcane class
Benefit: You can use the Siphon Life power. You also gain the use of a "defiling pool" to which you can add points by using the Siphon Life power. As a free action, you can choose to expend a point from your pool in order to gain either a +1 to hit or +3 to damage rolls with the next arcane power you use before the end of your next turn.
You can only use one point to augment any single use of an arcane power at heroic tier. At paragon you can use up to 2 points to modify a single use of an arcane power and at epic tier you can use up to 3 at a time. The benefits of expending multiple points on a single power stack.
Certain feats and abilities allow the use of points to gain benefits other than the ones provided by this feat. These benefits can be mixed and matched by spending points to use different feats, though the total number of points spent is still limited by the character's tier.
Points left unused in your defiling pool at the end of an encounter are lost.
Siphon Life
At-will + Arcane, Implement
Standard Action Close Burst 10
Target: one creature
Attack: Int, Cha or Con (any stat?) vs. Fortitude
Hit: 5 damage. You add one point to your defiling pool.
Special: When you target an ally with this power, they can choose to be hit by it automatically.
––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
CONCUSSIVE SPELL [DEFILER]
Prerequisites: 11th level, Any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit" As a free action, you can choose to expend 2 points from your defiling pool in order to daze one target you hit with the next arcane attack power you use before the end of your next turn (save ends).
DEFILER'S EXPANSION [DEFILER]
Prerequisites: Any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit: As a free action, you can choose to expend points from your defiling pool in order to increase the radius of the next burst or area arcane power you use before the end of your next turn. The number of squares the radius is increased by is equal to the number of points spent.
FORCEFUL SPELL [DEFILER]
Prerequisites: Any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit: As a free action, you can choose to expend points from your defiling pool in order Push any targets you hit with the next arcane attack power you use before the end of your next turn. The number of square the target is pushed is equal to the number of points expended. If this feat is used to augment a power that already has a Push effect, that effect is increased by a number of squares equal to the number of points expended.
SIPHON MASTER [DEFILING]
Prerequisites: 21st level, any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit: Your Siphon Life power can target one, two or three creatures. You can add one point to your defiling pool for each creature you hit with Siphon Life.
TWIN SIPHON [DEFILING]
Prerequisites: 11th level, any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit: Your Siphon Life power can target one or two creatures. You can add one point to your defiling pool for each creature you hit with Siphon Life.
WRACKING SPELL [DEFILING]
Prerequisites: Any arcane class, defiling magic
Benefit: As a free action, you can choose to expend points from your defiling pool in order to deal ongoing damage to any creature hit by the next arcane attack power you use before the end of your next turn. The amount of ongoing damage is equal to 2 times the number of points you spend.
I dont think its very realistic to expect the cleric to be able to cover all the different roles. I think we'll be looking at different channel divinities for the various "elemental spirits" and perhaps some new elemental builds that don't actually alter the cleric's main role as leader.
I personally expect channel divinity of course for the various elements. Additionally I suspect that all their radiant damage will be changed.
If you're a fire cleric your attacks will lose the radiant keyword and gain the fire keyword. If you're an earth cleric your attacks will lose radiant and gain force. Water will again drop radiant and gain acid, ect...
I'd actually suggest the opposite. Preservers don't draw enough power to make them much different than standard arcane casters but defilers draw intense amounts of life energy to cast spells. This results in defiling magic being more powerful than that of a standard preserver spell caster at the same level. So I'd target defilers for the augmentable options, keeping in the form and flavor that defilers can caster more powerful spells at the same level as preservers because of how they handle energy draw.
Very good idea you had! I just had to use a mirror to turn it backwards.:D
I was thinking that they could make the original powers weak, and use the personal augmentation to boost them up to usable levels, but your way does make more sense.
Pretty obvious why there is an R&D team, and not one person working on these projects, lol.
Seriously, have you missed the Dragon article with zounds of gladiatorial feats and options? There's the gladiator. Dark Sun could just expand on that or go as far as making it a build for some class, but really, nothing is farther from the class philosophy than the gladiator. If we make a gladiator class, we also have to make a Vigilante, a Duelist, an Archer, a Sentinel, a Horseman, and a Burglar class... Classes must give the player tools to represent a broad archetype, specific things are the domain of feats, maybe small optional class features, limited number of powers.
EDIT: Also, by definition both historical and fantastic of the gladiator, it's implicit but clear that there are gladiators of different classes so how would you keep that if you make a Gladiator class? The only way to make a class out of a gladiatorial concept is by making a Martial controller and possibly not call it gladiator but something else, then state that they're typical gladiators (net and trident gladiators were controller types...)
For the top part, there is a good chance we will see some of, if not all, of those classes later on. But I guess you're right. If we make something, the puppies and stuffed animals crowd will whine about not having class X and class Y and why don't we have them and they are just as valid and blah blah.
As for the second part, meh. I can see class builds and they would work and I'm not arguing that in the least. I can see a fighter glad build, a ranger glad build, a rogue glad build, a barbarian glad build, a cleric glad build, a wizard glad build and basically every single base class could have a gladiator build if thats what we're driving at.
As for the feel of a gladiator and it being a net and trident user. Thats but a single type. There are countless types of gladiators, especially for D&D and most especially for darksun.
I was thinking that they could make the original powers weak, and use the personal augmentation to boost them up to usable levels, but your way does make more sense.
Pretty obvious why there is an R&D team, and not one person working on these projects, lol.
Yeah, if they made the preserver underpowered, no one would use it. It would be an obsolete class before the book was ever released. But making defilers capable of becoming more powerful is a really good idea and the augmentable power thingy thang from the psion preview is a really good suggestion you had.
If you're a fire cleric your attacks will lose the radiant keyword and gain the fire keyword. If you're an earth cleric your attacks will lose radiant and gain force. Water will again drop radiant and gain acid, ect...
I was thinking about that and i think it could have some unforeseen repercussions. Think about all the feats that key off of different elements. How about Solid Sound for every power, every round?
The defiler could have a mechanic like the malediction invoker. Where they have more powerful spells, but daze/hurt/immobilize/whatever the caster or her allies. That'd work and be balanced.
Remember that the Dark warlock already has powers that drain his allies' hp. Thats defiler magic right there.
But making defilers capable of becoming more powerful is a really good idea and the augmentable power thingy thang from the psion preview is a really good suggestion you had.
Thanks, I get them every now and then.....wait, phone is ringing........gotta go, Bill S. is offering me a job!
LOL
I was thinking about that and i think it could have some unforeseen repercussions. Think about all the feats that key off of different elements. How about Solid Sound for every power, every round?
Eh, that's not really broken at all. Hell, you can already accomplish that with the Sorcerer or Wizard depending on how you do your build.
Also, the higher your level the less your defenses really help you. It practically gets to the point where unless the DM rolls a critical failure he's going to hit you.
The defiler could have a mechanic like the malediction invoker. Where they have more powerful spells, but daze/hurt/immobilize/whatever the caster or her allies. That'd work and be balanced.
I'd simply make defiler into a specific path for any arcane class to choose at (not just wizards, but maybe not warlocks...certainly sorcerers, wizards, and bards, though, as a choice). I do like the malediction invoker idea, but without as big a focus on hurting yourself. Rather, I see defilers more likely hurting one or more of their allies in addition to the enemy. This is not to say they couldn't also hurt themselves. Remember, that's what Sadira did once she became more powerful. During the day, she'd focus the power of the sun. During the night, she'd sometimes use her own lifeforce to fuel her more powerful spells, in addition to preserving in the traditional manner.
I can also see a series of feats that allow defilers to choose to augment a spell, but with a cost (i.e., increase the burst size of any spell by 1, but an ally or yourself takes some damage, or provides combat advantage to all enemies, or is weakened, etc). This can easily be akin to the spellscarred, but I'd not make it in lieu of a multiclass feat, to allow for multi/hybrid arcane/psionic characters, etc.
Eh, that's not really broken at all. Hell, you can already accomplish that with the Sorcerer or Wizard depending on how you do your build.
I know you can cheese out a force weapons, which is super broken (indefinitely high NADs every round) and you can do some cheesy stuff with the dragonborn rod and energy types but im not aware of how to get all of your powers switched to force.
Also, the higher your level the less your defenses really help you. It practically gets to the point where unless the DM rolls a critical failure he's going to hit you.
Which is something that desperately needs fixed, beyond the scope of Dark Sun and this thread of course. ;)
Also, the higher your level the less your defenses really help you. It practically gets to the point where unless the DM rolls a critical failure he's going to hit you.
That shouldn't really be true, mathematically, as long as you have the appropriate level armor for your character level.
What a waste....
Yet another poor decision from WotC.
Says the guy with a Dark Sun avatar ....
get to work! :D
I still hope the 2011 setting will be with a lot of naval travelling, pirates, fighting seamonsters and stuff.
Pirates of the Carrabean 4e more or less
There was a campaign setting for this near the end of the TSR age. It was called Red Steel and it was a offshoot of Mystara.
I know you can cheese out a force weapons, which is super broken (indefinitely high NADs every round) and you can do some cheesy stuff with the dragonborn rod and energy types but im not aware of how to get all of your powers switched to force.
You'll note that Solid Sound works with both force and thunder powers and thunder powers are a dime a dozen.
That shouldn't really be true, mathematically, as long as you have the appropriate level armor for your character level.
And yet it does work that way sorry to say.
Also, the higher your level the less your defenses really help you. It practically gets to the point where unless the DM rolls a critical failure he's going to hit you.
And yet it does work that way sorry to say.
No, it really doesn't. Not in 4E.
Even a cloth wizard has a non-situational AC of ~42 at 30th level. A level 30 soldier hits that on a on a 5+, not a 2. Even Tiamat only tags on a 4+. That's pretty much a worst-case scenario, and assumes zero feat expenditure on defense and no PP/ED boosts either, which isn't actually a likely build. The same wiz at 1st level had a ~15 AC, and was getting hit on 8+ by a same-level soldier. There's obviously some dropoff in relative defense effectiveness as you level up, but that can and should be offset by feats and situational boosts.
Nowhere near as bad as you're tryin to make it out to be.
What a waste....
Yet another poor decision from WotC.
I wouldn't say it's a poor decision, given how popular the old 2e setting was, and how many here (including me) are turgid in anticipation.
I gotta say I'm totally stoked!
Death to the Dragon King!
And yet it does work that way sorry to say.
I really don't agree that it does, I'm sorry to say. The bonus to hit numbers listed for 30th level monsters in the DMG result in about a 50% chance to hit against a character that is built with any sort of decent defense in mind. Some builds can significantly reduce that chance. Some builds are easier to hit. But your claim, by far and large, is (from what I have seen while playing around with the math of character defenses against monster bonuses to hit, endgame) false.
Looks great. I have been interested in this campaign setting since all the speculation started. I came in with 3e, but played around in 2e for a time. Does any one know if I can find the 2e Dark Sun books in a PDF form. It would be fun to get to know the setting over the next year. Whats really funny is how similar this is to my homebrew setting. My setting takes place in a high magic world were magic draws out power from the world, seems like my homebrew is pre-apocalyptic Athas. Can't wait and good going WOTC.
http://athas.org/ has all of the Dark Sun books in 3.5 PDF. Most of the fluff is there as well, so if your interested in the setting that's where I would go.
Psyched about the release, good call WoTC!
The Mage class will not exist in its current form. To play an Arcane caster, you're either playing a Preserver or a Defiler. They say they're going to stay as close as possible to the original setting so I figure if you want to play an arcane caster you're going to have to choose your path.
My guess is both will be their own separate class. I just don't see how you can be a Mage and choose either a Preserver build or a Defiler build. I think if you make a Mage and have the choice between builds, the two will lose a bit of flavor. I'm probably wrong about that but hear me out on this one.
If you read the books "The Prism Pentad" Sadira was able to cast as both a Preserver and a Defiler depending on if she needed the spell in a hurry or had a bit of time to get the spell off. This tells me that the best 4e game mechanic would be to have a multiclass feat allowing for both to be done at the same time for some special individuals. However, in the books she was pretty much the exception when it came to that kind of spell casting.
So I think the best way to do it is have a Preserver Class and a Defiler Class with both having their own hindrances and benefits that define them as being separate from the other. The most obvious hindrance of a Defiler is the circle of ash emanating from himself which is not something ANYBODY wants to see and is usually subject to a quick death at the hands of an angry mob in the town or city. The Preserver still has to hide what he does because as we know everybody blames arcane users for how the world is regardless of their ways of getting the power for their magic. Maybe the Preservers don't do quite as much damage as the Defiler, or maybe the Preserver is more of a controller with the Defiler being more of a Striker. Who knows...there's so many ways to go with it.
I think one thing all of us Dark Sun fans can agree on however, is that we're all excited to see what they do with it. Wizards hasn't failed me yet, so I can't believe they will now.
The best way of handling Preserver/Defiler is to have the baseline arcane classes be Preservers by default, and have Defiling done as a feat or Multiclass-Only option like spellscar.
BTW, real men use paint.
Heh, Vince is a githyanki, and people will love his nuts.
I'm very confused as to why everyone's so excited about this. it may maintain its fluff, but 4e design and heroic fantasy, is what you get when you play 4th edition. Unless, you seriously believe today any player is going to let you even bother them with checks for food, drink, and weapons that's not pure background fluff which is an invisible threat for the NPCs. PCs on the other hand, are still heroic.
Um.....huh?
If you read the books "The Prism Pentad" Sadira was able to cast as both a Preserver and a Defiler depending on if she needed the spell in a hurry or had a bit of time to get the spell off. This tells me that the best 4e game mechanic would be to have a multiclass feat allowing for both to be done at the same time for some special individuals. However, in the books she was pretty much the exception when it came to that kind of spell casting.
Same series also state that anyone could defile, preservers just had ethical and moral objections to it and refused to do so even to save their own lives.
For my 2 cents. I was hoping that if they did 4E DS they would forward the timeline from that series and cut both preserving and defiling. I like the flavor but i remember from back in 2E when defilers could be game brakingly powerful.
Now as they have stated that they are going to try and stay as close to the original as possible i hope that they find a balanced way of making preserving seem attractive to players.
The Mage class will not exist in its current form. To play an Arcane caster, you're either playing a Preserver or a Defiler. They say they're going to stay as close as possible to the original setting so I figure if you want to play an arcane caster you're going to have to choose your path.
My guess is both will be their own separate class. I just don't see how you can be a Mage and choose either a Preserver build or a Defiler build. I think if you make a Mage and have the choice between builds, the two will lose a bit of flavor. I'm probably wrong about that but hear me out on this one.
I doubt it. Bill has said that defiling will effect currently existing powers. That means that there will be some kind of defiling option for current players like feats or builds. After all, there a bunch of arcane classes other than the wizard.
Races: The two definite races are Muls and Thri-kreen (they probably won't be able to attack with all their arms at once). If there's a third race, Half-Giants may be most likely (if they aren't Large size), but they do share some conceptual space with the Goliath.
Classes: There's a couple of ways they could go for new classes.
- Gladiator(Martial Controller): Would function as sort of an anti-warlord, with powers that intimidate and drive away his enemies. As others have mentioned, there's already an article with Gladiator-themed feats, but they also made one for Assassins (and there's an Assassin class in the works).
- Templar(Elemental Defender): The Dark Sun setting might be a good place for the introduction of Elemental classes to the system. Remaking the templar into an elemental class might be a good way to set it apart from the paladin and other divine classes.
- Elementalist/Elemental Cleric(Elemental Leader): If they decide to eschew divine classes entirely rather than adapt them to fit the setting, they might include an elemental replacement for the cleric. Not sure what it would be called, but 'elementalist' might be a possibility.
Class Options: There will likely be a number of alternate class options/pseudoclasses like the spellscar in the game.
- Defiler: I'd agree that defilers will be handled through feats or multi-class options that enhance powers at a price. Normal arcane classes will be preservers by default.
- Elemental Cleric/Paladin/Avenger/Invoker: Another possibility is that divine classes will receive alternate power source templates to convert them to 'elemental' classes, altering some of their powers in the process. For instance, a fire-based cleric might have his radiant powers changed to fire powers.
- Wild Talent: Psionic talents might be handled through a number of feats that give new powers to characters in this vein.
They just need a table for defiling radius/caster level and design powers more powerful than their level with a defiler keyword, and an additional drawback for the caster itself and not just for plants in the radius, such as damages.
Then arcane casters could choose to keep one or more of these spells, tempted by their efficiency.
Invokers make perfect templars.
Warforged are perfect servants for sorcerers-kings to for walking in the desert at the side of the giant beetle skeletons. And for other races difficult to put in this setting, they could have followed the way of the gnomes (exterminated by the sorcerer kings). But the feywild is new to dark sun, and there's a complicated story between sorcerer-kings and planes, so these big bad guys could have sealed access to the feywild in the past (after having gained the ability to grant divine powers), or it could have been sealed to keep sorcerer kings away. If the feywild is coming back, then a lot of races can come back from there after having fled the sorcerer-kings genocidal tendencies.
Unlike forgotten realms, dragonlance or ravenloft, Dark Sun remains the more open field to play with for a DM, even if the players have read all the related novels.
The only (big) problem of this settings in 2nd. was balance, within itself and even more with other settings.
also:
athas.org expired on 08/10/2009 and is pending renewal or deletion
Whoopsie,
I really hope they don't just switch damage types on the Divine power source or try to pretend they're Elemental power source classes. That would be such a copout.
I wouldn't see it as a cop out. I'd see it as being true to the setting.
There's already an Elemental power source in the works. Why would you make a crappy echo of the classes that you're going to put out later?
Best guess for elemental classes is PHB4, 2011. Are you willing to wait that much?
Plus, Elemental as a power source could be a little different from what we think and what the name suggests.
However, a first specific Elemental class could be presented in the very Dark Sun Player's Guide, although a Psionic seems more probable.
This thread needs to be broken up into specific discussions. Cue thread necromancy or something.There are six Arcane classes, not just Wizard.
The best way of handling Preserver/Defiler is to have the baseline arcane classes be Preservers by default, and have Defiling done as a feat or Multiclass-Only option like spellscar.
This is probably the smoothest and best solution overall
, imho. The impulse I think is to do the reverse and have Defiling as the base to show that it is harder to Preserve. The problem with that is you suddenly imbalance one type of class against all others because an arcane caster has to take, say, a "Preserving" feat in order to be heroic while everyone else gets the feat of their choice. (One might say them's the breaks, but it's not like Athasian arcane casters have a lot going for them in the first place.)If the setting is going to imbalance things, I think it would be more flavorful to build in a tiny bit more power for arcane PC's. Temptation, anyone?
Give arcane characters an extra at-will power called Defile that let's them do something really hot to their next arcane power used. However, if they use it, we already know how bad bad bad that is. :evillaugh I am very curious to see what they do with the bard. The Athasian bard was nothing like the typical D&D bard. In fact, a rogue with a PP might fit the Athasian bard better, to be honest...
Yup, that's a weird one. I think this might require a subtle retcon along with a PP like you mention:
[INDENT]"True bards on Athas are as rare or rarer than any other arcane class, yet their namesake has been passed on to many a silver-tongued rogue. Informant bards [or some such] are sly merchants of gossip and information who can charm the unwary or enthrall and manipulate guileless crowds. It was the general public who gave them the title "bard" after those fabled magical minstrels who entertained the masses in the Burnt World's past."[/INDENT]
Howzzat?
This is probably the smoothest and best solution overall
You could balance it by giving Preservers exclusive access to several feats that defilers don't. Concealed spellcasting comes to mind- its easier to conceal magic that isn't turning the ground at your feet into ash.
It seems to me, with 4E's ability to make NPCs that don't follow the rules for PCs, that Preserver will just be the standard class and Defiling will be something that NPCs do. The PCs are supposed to be the good guys, after all. 4E's established that pretty strongly so far.
I suppose, maybe, a feat that lets you power up a spell by defiling might go in, but I can't see it being a whole prestige path, much less an entire class.
I'm a little surprised so many of you seem to think they'll make Defiler a PC option.
It seems to me, with 4E's ability to make NPCs that don't follow the rules for PCs, that Preserver will just be the standard class and Defiling will be something that NPCs do. The PCs are supposed to be the good guys, after all. 4E's established that pretty strongly so far.
I suppose, maybe, a feat that lets you power up a spell by defiling might go in, but I can't see it being a whole prestige path, much less an entire class.
Again, that would break the paradigm. Dark Sun isn't about good vs. evil. Its about almost-good vs. almost-evil.
I mean, Borys is evil and everything, but if you knock him off you have to do something about Rajaat. The Sorcerer-kings are evil but without them the various races would have killed each other over water rights- except possibly the Kreens and Halflings, who might have had to set up humanoid ranches or something. And that would be evil, except without them the other humanoids would be extinct.
Sure you have Avagnions, but how many preservers are really good enough to make that transformation? If any? Maybe the fact that (as of the core setting) none have emerged is a sign that the races of Athas are incapable of such pure goodness?
I'm a little surprised so many of you seem to think they'll make Defiler a PC option.
It seems to me, with 4E's ability to make NPCs that don't follow the rules for PCs, that Preserver will just be the standard class and Defiling will be something that NPCs do. The PCs are supposed to be the good guys, after all. 4E's established that pretty strongly so far. That was my point, at least.
I suppose, maybe, a feat that lets you power up a spell by defiling might go in, but I can't see it being a whole prestige path, much less an entire class.
Well, yes, I agree that the base class will probably end up a Preserver. I was entertaining dark thoughts, though. ;) If they allowed PCs to defile without becoming NPCs, it could be set up as a temptation always available to the PC and could also create potential conflict within and between characters.
As to why so many people seem to think defiling will be available to PCs, I believe that is because the setting fluff majorly indicates that defiling is easier and more powerful than preserving. IOW, Preservers must spend time and effort to NOT defile.
Taking a step back from the passion of making DS a kick-to-the-groin setting in every way, we could say that that is just built in to the assumed way the base arcane classes cast. Then Defiler villains and monsters could simply be given powers that work in counterpoint someway to or much faster somehow than PC Preservers' powers.
Hey! :lightbulb Maybe an emphasis on interrupt powers that interrupt other arcane powers would work.
Or even feats for a lesser impact on the classes, game and world.
This is probably the smoothest and best solution overall
It's not mine, I'm just repeating from other people what I think is the best idea.
I am very excited about Dark Sun 4th Edition, and I know one of my players would literally crap himself if I told him about this. XD
I always loved Ravenloft and Eberron, as Ravenloft brings me back to the horror campaigns of Call of Cthulhu and Eberron is a Steam Punk wet-dream for me but I never got a chance to try out Dark Sun because Psionics leave a bad taste in every persons I've ever mets mouth...\
Making it a source rather then having it's own unique rules will FINALLY fix the lamest part of D&D. And on top of that, post-apocalyptica is facking awesome. I sure love Fallout 3 and the idea that the plants, diseases, magic, and the environment being the biggest threat, when you aren't worried about being eaten by hobbits, exploded by psychic dragons, or beaten to death by mummies only to blow away in the wind.
Bring it on.
I’ve seen many posts about “how will they incorporate such and such race”, namely the Eladrin, the Warforged and the Goliath. I’d bet some races WON’T be integrated into the setting. They’ll make way for as many, but I doubt they’ll be able to refluff everything with 4th edition “core” setting. My guess is – they’ll leave out some of the new races, incorporate a few, add muls, thri-kreens and maybe half-giants, and set a nice "Other races" sidebar including why they left out some races and how to incorporate them, maybe even retracing those races history to previous ages. I personally think Dragonborns could replace Drays, Half-Giants could be Goliaths, and I think the Shifter makes a nice addition to the original Darksun races – maybe tweaked to add a new “subtype”?
What with the plethora of ridiculous races that exist now, I think it's entirely reasonable for a designer to say "No, these just don't exist." I, for one, would nix the Shifters, the Eladrin and the Warforged. But I'm not designing the game. (In fact, I would've nixed the Eladrin from the original edition anyway, as they're totally lame and redundant.. but that's a personal opinion .)
In any case I join the jubilance. I haven't been this excited for an official D&D release since 3rd Edition was announced.
As for Defilers: I suspect that the system will involve some sort of "augmentation" like you see with the Psion. That would probably be the smartest way to deal with it. If you're a deflier you get to augment your spells, thus making you stronger. However, you gain penalties along the way.