1- Defiling. WTH?!
It gives no bonus to the spell...
Its only usable on Dailys.
Damage only allieds ?!
Seriously, how i can RP this?! It should cause damage to every live being near the defiler.
Its supposed to enhance the magical powers of the caster, in a perceptible way. (even to non casters)
And it only damaging allys makes no sense to me. And how someone on your group cant say NO to it? (You may be disliked for being a defiler by one of them, as an exemple)
I dont know how to roleplay this... its just a rule without any sense.
Sure a reroll is mechanically nice, and just doing damage to allieds made it not overpowered, and not a minion killer. But it made absolutly no sense to the RP of old Dark sun.
Add some boost to damage/duration, maybe some bonus to hit, and remove the reroll to the spell.
Make the damage affect every live being in a big area, and maybe lower the damage. Change the rule so that it didnt damage minions, but cause them to suffer severe pain, so they receive a penalty to attacks, damages and resistences for one round or two.
I cant believe they made Defiling like this...
2- With all the problems being an arcane caster is on Athas, how they made it simple to bluff it as being psionic? It seems really easy for a 5+ level caster, with bluff treined just bluff the entire crowd every time. Sure he will have hard time with high level Templars and all, but are free from comum people.
3- How they made it so easy to be a Templar?
Shouldnt templars be a exclusive cast, that is hard to acquire? How a lvl 1 character can be one and be allowed to cast spells without any problem?
4- They seems to have removed that PC mortality of Athas.
In original game, they suggested making 3 character sheets, and made sure to let you know the entire time, that you may die at any point.
Death should be really comum in Athas, and old book made it really seems so.
But this one dont enforce it that much.
Even the adventure at the end of the book, is easly done with almost no chance of players dying.
Thank you for your time, and sorry for my bad english
1. On defiling, I agree it should effect everyone in range... and just switching it so it does would not hurt the game balance at all. (as a minions healing surge value is 0.25, half of that would round down to 0 so they would take no damage from defling.) As minions are really just a single hit it makes no big deal to have them survive it with no non-rp effect. And note the reroll can be on the to hit or damage... which means it can be used to get a better damage roll which is a major boost.
As to only effecting dailies, check the feats and paragon classes... you will find lots of upgrades including making them get bonuses on at will and encounter powers. (Also a way to defile with psionics.) Plus the rules allow you to defile with encounter and at will powers for just killing the plants already, just has not in game disadvantage to living animals. (does transform the ground to defiled though which has effect on some creatures in the creature book.)
2. It was always easy to bluff magic as psionic or elemental magic in the old version too (there were entire sections on trying to hide it in the old dragon kings book)... the problem being if you are too flashy people would still freak out, or might turn you in to the templars anyway in hopes of a reward. (in case you were lying or in case the templars just outright did not care if you were using psionics and punished you anyway.)
3. Templars were a level one class in the old darksun too. though they did not get spellcasting as fast as other classes. And note per the new rules they are mainly a theme, which means that they only get 1... count it 1 arcane spell at first level unless their class grants them more. (I.e. they go warlock... or in the case of pavik from the novels a shaman/warden most likely. But that would be primal magic in addition to the templar arcane.)
4. I have been running a 4 ed. game for about a month and a half set in darksun, waiting on the books to come out... And even without the darksun specific rules we have lost 2 PC's and 3 trained animal companions (for the beastmaster ranger) in a period of 5 games. (And almost lost 3 other PCs. And this is out of a 4 man group.) Crits in 4 ed. and weapon breakage for darksun make for a really nasty combination. Not to mention using the tactics that are common for darksun creatures in arena combat and ambushes.
I had similar concerns up till I really sat down with the new campaign guide this morning, and it got me grinning on the evil and wonderful things I can do to my players. They love when I get sadistic, and they like having a game where character mortality is high.
Didn't have any issues with the other things you mentioned.
2. It was always easy to bluff magic as psionic or elemental magic in the old version too (there were entire sections on trying to hide it in the old dragon kings book)... the problem being if you are too flashy people would still freak out, or might turn you in to the templars anyway in hopes of a reward. (in case you were lying or in case the templars just outright did not care if you were using psionics and punished you anyway.)
It was alot harder to do that in Ad&d Dark Sun.
The spell needed to pass by a psionic power, it was not just a skill check, you need to produce something that could pass as psionic.
And i dont remember any problem with use of psionic in any flashy way, if you did nothing "wrong".
I remember being able to float around, use teleknesis, and even some atacks to defend myself without any problem in most of the city, without attracting any abnormal attention.
3. Templars were a level one class in the old darksun too. though they did not get spellcasting as fast as other classes. And note per the new rules they are mainly a theme, which means that they only get 1... count it 1 arcane spell at first level unless their class grants them more. (I.e. they go warlock... or in the case of pavik from the novels a shaman/warden most likely. But that would be primal magic in addition to the templar arcane.)
It was not a core thing to let players play a Templar.
Its not the number of spells they get, but the ability to be a Mage/Defiler/Templar that can use spell without any problem, defiling anything they desire, without any problem on a magic-hating world.
I know its not exactly like this, and that a Templar have responsabilitys, and cant do everything he wishes for, but you understand my point.
4. I have been running a 4 ed. game for about a month and a half set in darksun, waiting on the books to come out... And even without the darksun specific rules we have lost 2 PC's and 3 trained animal companions (for the beastmaster ranger) in a period of 5 games. (And almost lost 3 other PCs. And this is out of a 4 man group.) Crits in 4 ed. and weapon breakage for darksun make for a really nasty combination. Not to mention using the tactics that are common for darksun creatures in arena combat and ambushes.
This is maily because you knew the old setting, so your assumptions of how things should work is based on what you know.
But if a new player read the new Dar Sun book, it will appear to be a savage world, ruled by evil "draconic" mages, with alot of psionic flavour, and strange races. But besides that, it didnt appear to be any more dangerous them any other setting.
Besides the perious of dying without water. (This was done perfectly, imo)
It needs to be done that way or you can do damage way out of proportion to the spell via defiling.
You can't disguise defiling magic, but you can disguise non-defiling. The average person you meet isn't going to know much about magic, what with the illiteracy and general ignorance going on. Your average wizard is liable to be bad at bluffing as well, given lack of charisma and training (though those glib sorcerers and bards are another matter).
Templars have always been available, though I felt their description didn't match the mechanics. They were the judges, officals, enforcers etc but mechanically they were all clerics. SKs did allow some defilers to work for them in 2e as well, casting spells. Now with the SK warlock pact and the tempalr theme it fits better.
Mortality is still there. MM3 and the DS crature catalogue boosted the damage done my creatures compared to MM1 & MM2. The new sunk sickness rule is plain nasty - get lost in the desert and you will die. Try anything major int he big citis and you will get crushed under the oppressive wheels of the government. Most DMs I've heard have said they are going magic item light, using the inherent bonuses rules. Forget all those cheesed out frost blade builds, those pockets full of magic items, the shopping lists etc. You'll get what you are given and like it.
Seriously, all the crying about defiling being too weak will settle down once more people get the book.
2) shrugs
3) PCs are not NPCs. NPCs cannot easily become Templars, or free, or anything. PCs are already super special just by being PCs, no matter what level they are. A PC Templar is a Templar because he's a PC, not because it's easy to become a Templar. And unless you're a spellcaster already, you only get one spell for being a Templar, then have to level up and trade non-spellcaster powers for the Templar spells.
4) See Sun Sickness and Survival Days.
1)and yes, you defile the pants around you too.
hehe
1)and yes, you defile the pants around you too.
hehe
D'OH!
Plants .....
Even if they are trained in Bluff, only Warlocks and Bards have Charisma as a non-dump stat, meaning that, even if they are trained at it, Artificers, Swordmages and Wizards aren't very good at it.
Sorcerers and Bards; roughly half the Warlock builds can use Cha as a dump stat if they want.
Please enlightme with some wisdom about some things in new dark sun that i either desagree or simple dont understand well.
1- Defiling. WTH?!
It gives no bonus to the spell...
Its only usable on Dailys.
Damage only allieds ?!
Seriously, how i can RP this?! It should cause damage to every live being near the defiler.
Its supposed to enhance the magical powers of the caster, in a perceptible way. (even to non casters)
And it only damaging allys makes no sense to me. And how someone on your group cant say NO to it? (You may be disliked for being a defiler by one of them, as an exemple)
I dont know how to roleplay this... its just a rule without any sense.
Sure a reroll is mechanically nice, and just doing damage to allieds made it not overpowered, and not a minion killer. But it made absolutly no sense to the RP of old Dark sun.
Add some boost to damage/duration, maybe some bonus to hit, and remove the reroll to the spell.
Make the damage affect every live being in a big area, and maybe lower the damage. Change the rule so that it didnt damage minions, but cause them to suffer severe pain, so they receive a penalty to attacks, damages and resistences for one round or two.
I cant believe they made Defiling like this...
In 2E, there were two kinds of Arcane casters, Defilers and Preservers, and Defilers leveled much faster than Preservers. Since everyone uses the same XP table now, they obviously couldn't mechanically represent Defilers in this manner.
In 2E, the other mechanical benefit of Defiling was that Defilers cast their spells faster than Preservers, taking 2 sepments off the casting time. Since the action economy is vastly different in 4E, they couldn't do this either.
Defiling did not harm non plant life until the character was well on their way to becoming a Dragon. In 2E, Defiling only harmed plant life around you, an therefore was mostly an RP consideration. If your DM let you kill plant monsters around you just by Defiling, he was giving you too much power (I only let it kill non-monster plants when I ran Dark Sun way back in the early 90s). You may still Defile plant life around you as an RP consideration with any Arcane spell you cast, but, as the previous mechanical benefits to Defiling are untenable in 4E, they needed to come up with a new mechanic.
Having the damage done affect enemies as well as allies doesn't just increase the power of the spell, it magnifies it exponentially by the number of enemies near you. Dailies should be powerful, and Defiling as it is lessens the chance that the use of a Daily will be wasted by bad dice. Defiling as you want it can potentially do much more damage than the spell you are attempting to enhance, even if the reroll misses.
As for how to RP it, that is easy. Defiling is Evil with a capital E. You are willfully killing the planet. Your party should have just as much problem with you killing the plant life around you as they do with you sucking out some of their HP away. If you are going to Defile, you had darn well better make a great case for why you needed to do it.
2- With all the problems being an arcane caster is on Athas, how they made it simple to bluff it as being psionic? It seems really easy for a 5+ level caster, with bluff treined just bluff the entire crowd every time. Sure he will have hard time with high level Templars and all, but are free from comum people.
Not every Arcane caster has Bluff on their class skill list (the Wizard doesn't, the Swordmage doesn't, the Artificer doesn't) which means they need to spend a Feat or Background to add it, in addition to taking Bluff over a Skill they want more.
Even if they are trained in Bluff, only Warlocks and Bards have Charisma as a non-dump stat, meaning that, even if they are trained at it, Artificers, Swordmages and Wizards aren't very good at it.
Common people also have as much Insight as the DM needs them to have. Level is no longer a concern. That innkeeper may just be a commoner, even a minion, but he may have seen a lot of things and needs to be able to read people. If the DM says that he has +13 Insight, he has +13 Insight. NPCs don't need to be high level to be good at things any more.
3- How they made it so easy to be a Templar?
Shouldnt templars be a exclusive cast, that is hard to acquire? How a lvl 1 character can be one and be allowed to cast spells without any problem?
In 2E, Templars were a PC class, at level 1, right from the get-go. If they hadn't intended them to be played, they wouldn't have written them up. If the DM wanted to restrict them as a player option, he had that power, and if the DM wants to restrict the Templar theme in 4E, he has that power, too.
A Templar can only cast Arcane spells in their home city without problems (provided they are still a Templar in good standing), and they still cannot do so without restriction. As I recall, Defiling anywhere near a City State's Tree of Life was signing your own death warrant for anybody but the Sorcerer King themselves. Defiling too often in full view of the common people was also frowned upon, as it undermined people's faith in the Sorcerer Kings.
And a Templar had no immunity at all when he was in another City unless they were part of a diplomatic envoy. A Shadow Wife of Nibenay would very likely be arrested and executed as a spy if her identity were revealed in Urik unless she presented herself to Hamanu immediatley upon her arrival.
4- They seems to have removed that PC mortality of Athas.
In original game, they suggested making 3 character sheets, and made sure to let you know the entire time, that you may die at any point.
Death should be really comum in Athas, and old book made it really seems so.
But this one dont enforce it that much.
Even the adventure at the end of the book, is easly done with almost no chance of players dying.
The adventure at the end of the book is meant for first level characters to ease them into the game. There is no fun to be had at all if you always die before you get to second level.
After running and playing in the first Dark Sun Encounters, I think you are severely underestimating how deadly that first encounter in the Campaign Guide really is. There are three monsters that have as many HP as a Defender, have Reach, and do an average of 11 damage on a hit with their Basic attack. Add to this an attack that does an average of 18 damage a hit, that recharges, and another that averages 18 damage and inflicts Vulnerable 5 to all damage on the hit PC. The other two monsters have an attack that averages 13 damage on a hit, immbolizes if it does, slows after a successful save, and does half damage on a miss, and it recharges every other turn.
That being said, Dark Sun is as lethal as the DM makes it. Many of the monsters in the Creature Catalog are incredibly lethal. This was just as true in 2E as it is now. If the DM wanted to take it easy on you in 1991, they could. If the DM wants to take it easy on you in 2010, they can. Encounter difficulty is, and always has been, in the hands of the DM.
There are several reasons for that and one major one is that PC lethality is in any case lower in 4e than in earlier editions - not by much, but noticeably.
Players don't really appreciate their PC's being killed at the DM's whim anyway.
You can play a "lethal" campaing if you want, but the baseline for new players is not suggesting that for a good reason.
As for concealing the arcane magic, I suspect they went lighter with the difficulty because the different classes should not have major bias in terms of power and in-game issues. (4e philosophy in general)
There is less reason to penalize the spellcasters because their power level is more similar than the other classes.
2. It was always easy to bluff magic as psionic or elemental magic in the old version too (there were entire sections on trying to hide it in the old dragon kings book)... the problem being if you are too flashy people would still freak out, or might turn you in to the templars anyway in hopes of a reward. (in case you were lying or in case the templars just outright did not care if you were using psionics and punished you anyway.)
It was alot harder to do that in Ad&d Dark Sun.
The spell needed to pass by a psionic power, it was not just a skill check, you need to produce something that could pass as psionic.
And i dont remember any problem with use of psionic in any flashy way, if you did nothing "wrong".
I remember being able to float around, use teleknesis, and even some atacks to defend myself without any problem in most of the city, without attracting any abnormal attention.
Yeah but per page 80, you cannot disguise defiling magic with a bluff check.
Add in, if your DM was not having templars looking into even strong "psionic effects" then your DM was being nice in Darksun. (After all unknown masters of the way are not encouraged by the templars, SK's, or the academies of the way in most cities.)
It was a skill check in 2nd edition as well. And if you go tossing around spells that do not match any "common" psionic powers around people and your DM let's you get off with just a bluff check, your DM is not doing his job. Unless he makes that check difficulty through the roof... and note that most arcane casters are not cha based or have bluff on their skill list. (Bards, sorcerer, and some warlocks being the exceptions.)
3. Templars were a level one class in the old darksun too. though they did not get spellcasting as fast as other classes. And note per the new rules they are mainly a theme, which means that they only get 1... count it 1 arcane spell at first level unless their class grants them more. (I.e. they go warlock... or in the case of pavik from the novels a shaman/warden most likely. But that would be primal magic in addition to the templar arcane.)
It was not a core thing to let players play a Templar.
Its not the number of spells they get, but the ability to be a Mage/Defiler/Templar that can use spell without any problem, defiling anything they desire, without any problem on a magic-hating world.
I know its not exactly like this, and that a Templar have responsabilitys, and cant do everything he wishes for, but you understand my point.
It was up to the DM on if you let players play templars, but there were inherent issues with templars in other cities.
And I am sorry, templars that go around defiling their own city, without thinking of the consequences have a very short life expectation. As they would be primary targets of the veiled alliance, would be assassinated by nobles who lost crops to them, killed by the crowd when they thought they could get away with it... not to mention ticking off their own SK by decreasing his own source of power. And if they try it outside their city, let alone in another city... well let us just say they would be quickly a "late" templar.
Personally in my own game I plan to have the powers gained from the templar theme cannot use defiling, as I plan to have their power be channeled from the SK themself. (As it always was in the books.) But powers from their classes are as per class for all aspects. (though considering making the warlocks with the sk pact the same way.) And having the SK choose to cut them off. (Always been how I have had warlocks in my game... you break the pact, you lose your power. Just adding it to the theme too.)
4. I have been running a 4 ed. game for about a month and a half set in darksun, waiting on the books to come out... And even without the darksun specific rules we have lost 2 PC's and 3 trained animal companions (for the beastmaster ranger) in a period of 5 games. (And almost lost 3 other PCs. And this is out of a 4 man group.) Crits in 4 ed. and weapon breakage for darksun make for a really nasty combination. Not to mention using the tactics that are common for darksun creatures in arena combat and ambushes.
This is maily because you knew the old setting, so your assumptions of how things should work is based on what you know.
But if a new player read the new Dar Sun book, it will appear to be a savage world, ruled by evil "draconic" mages, with alot of psionic flavour, and strange races. But besides that, it didnt appear to be any more dangerous them any other setting.
Besides the perious of dying without water. (This was done perfectly, imo)
If they read over the section starting on page 198, the creating adventures section... there is no way they will see this as not being massively savage. Not to mention the mortality rate in the Darksun modules so far has been wonderfully sadistic. They have captured how dangerous the areas really were.
And from what I have heard about the new creature book... they are quite vicious.
1. Defiling does cause damage to everything. The extra damage to the enemies is included in the damage reroll. What's stopping you from RPing the plants withering? Charts not giving you mechanics for determining how many plants die? Cause that'd be roll playing, not role playing. Also, defilers can't bluff their abilities away, everyone can spot a defiler.
2. When people don't know about something, they're generally not going to call your bluff ("I don't know what that is, cause I don't know anything about magic, but that's definately arcane and not psionic!" - Does that make any sense?).
3. 4e Level 1 characters are tougher than previous edition characters. As for "it was not a core thing to let players play a Templar," yes it was in the original box set, it was the revised version that didn't allow for templar PCs.
4. 4e monsters are tougher than previous edition monsters. (Seriously, before 4e, I had never heard of anyone getting beaten by kobolds, even at level 1. Playing 4e, I got to experiance it).
4. I have been running a 4 ed. game for about a month and a half set in darksun, waiting on the books to come out... And even without the darksun specific rules we have lost 2 PC's and 3 trained animal companions (for the beastmaster ranger) in a period of 5 games. (And almost lost 3 other PCs. And this is out of a 4 man group.) Crits in 4 ed. and weapon breakage for darksun make for a really nasty combination. Not to mention using the tactics that are common for darksun creatures in arena combat and ambushes.
This is maily because you knew the old setting, so your assumptions of how things should work is based on what you know.
But if a new player read the new Dar Sun book, it will appear to be a savage world, ruled by evil "draconic" mages, with alot of psionic flavour, and strange races. But besides that, it didnt appear to be any more dangerous them any other setting.
Besides the perious of dying without water. (This was done perfectly, imo)
Without using DS specific rules, using just plain ol' 4e, he's had a high-mortality game. He didn't say he was compensating like you assume, he pointed out that 4e can be quite deadly additional Dark Sun-ifying. Also, the published adventures are quite deadly. We've had threads complaining about how MINIONS have damage that the PCs don't have for a couple of levels.
It was not a core thing to let players play a Templar.
Its not the number of spells they get, but the ability to be a Mage/Defiler/Templar that can use spell without any problem, defiling anything they desire, without any problem on a magic-hating world.
I know its not exactly like this, and that a Templar have responsabilitys, and cant do everything he wishes for, but you understand my point.
Yes it was. It may have been discouraged in your campaign, but it was as core as the Gladiator was.