Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 savagedetective82 Aug 15, 2009 10:01:17	As Dark Sun is getting the usual flurry of commentary on its updated status, I thought I'd consolidate some thoughts on the conversion to 4th edition and make a few comments. As far as races go, the reason a lot of those races can’t be brought to the setting is not that they weren’t in Athas before and so won’t be now for continuity reasons (whoops, an island of gnomes suddenly appeared!). Rather, those races were killed off by Rajaat’s minions, the sorcerer-kings, a long time ago, and given that these are epic-level monsters with psionic and magic powers, the closest thing the world has seen to gods, I’m inclined to believe them. The updated setting ought to keep this as it was, but offer DMs who just really can’t stand the thought of all the dead little gnomes suggestions for making that lost island suddenly appear. The Athas world map depicted only part of the world (to my knowledge) in old editions – lost lands, hidden colonies, underground refuges, etc., would all be available editing tools, so to speak. Some 4th edition races, like genasi have been around before in Dark Sun. Some, like the goliath, seem perfect to tuck away somewhere in the mountains. Others, like tieflings, don’t really belong unless their story is drastically rewritten (blood experiments of the sorcerer-kings, etc) due to the lack of extraplanar travel. If they do bring the feywild in, eladrin could have “departed the world” long ago and recently reappeared, but the feywild and its inhabitants just don't make much sense, given that the halflings are the origin of all the other races. The 4th edition incarnations of standard races (elves, dwarves, etc.) in some cases work great as Dark Sun races, in some cases less so, though I have a feeling they’ll try not to touch those up too much, if at all (though the endurance of dwarves, the running of elves, etc. seem pretty key items). As for classes, all the martial, primal and psionic classes will fit no problem (Athas had a whole story for druids, which the various primal classes could serve as incarnations of). Arcane and divine, however, pose problems. Arcane is tough due to the way magic works and is perceived. Wizards are really the only ones that make complete sense – just create preserver and defiler builds with associated mechanics and they’re good to go. Sorcerers would work if given new power sources to reflect Athas’ weird power-sources: the Grey (necromantic sorcerer), the Black (shadow sorcerer), the Sun (only one character, Sadira of Tyr, ever managed this source though). Bards were different – essentially rogue/assassin entertainers, no magic; they don’t really fit as is and should probably become a paragon path for rogues. Warlocks might work as a very rare caster, making deals with sorcerer-kings, Dregoth, super-powerful old undead, etc. Otherwise, not so great as well. Sword-mages don’t really fit at all. Basically, every arcane class you add, especially if they don’t tap the preserver/defiler conflict, dilutes the story-line and the “specialness” of magic in Athas. Divine is less tough. Add rules for clerics to change their powers to different damage types (not as a feat, but just as an initial choice) along with some new Channel Divinity feats and they’re good to go (I was little concerned about the mention in the interview that shamans will worship the elemental spirits – it gets a bit weird when the primal characters and the divine gets their power from the same place; druids used to worship spirits of the land, which makes more sense for them and other primals). Paladins have never worked on Athas and each edition has said so. Avengers seem like great servants of the sorcerer-kings (who could grant divine spells) or elemental assassins. Invokers could be refitted in a way much like clerics – more spell-oriented elemental casters. As for the planes, it gets a bit tricky. Elemental planes become elemental chaos, no problem. The Grey and the Black seem both to be versions of the Shadowfell (the Grey gets the death part, the Black gets the shadow) – though the Grey seems the better candidate in the cosmology. In fact, one had to pass through the Grey to get to other planes. Athas could very easily be surrounded by its own Shadowfell rather than adjacent to it, preventing that pesky planar travel. The Feywild might have been connected at one pointed (re: those sprites and gnomes who were killed off), but in the current moment the connection would seem to have been severed, even if we allow it ever existed. The Astral is inaccessible and always has been. And just because the “Shadowfell” is present in Athas as “The Grey” or what have you, doesn’t mean it has to include the Shadar-kai, Raven Queen or anything else(as has been suggested in various threads). Eberron’s plane of the dead (also a version of the Shadowfell) seems like a good analogue - dull grey forever, with spirits slowly fading out of existence. I’m curious how dragons and avangions will work. The old story was, you had to be human, advance to level 20 as a wizard, switch to psion(icist) and advance to 20, then start the process. While I think a combination of multiclassing, paragon paths and epic destinies would probably work, I’d like to see it made a little more dramatic than that. They had level 30 psions in Athas, but they weren’t nearly as powerful as the dragons. Maybe only by completing the dragon/avangion epic destiny do you even start the transformation, thus making a full-blown dragon even more god-like in power. In any case, I hope it’s still a major event. The impulse toward "balance" in this case would make your lvl 30 fighter as tough as the Dragon himself, which seems not so great. Anyhow, that’s my two cents (or couple dollars) worth. It seems like a lot of 4th edition races, classes, mechanics, etc. will fit in well. Others less so. I hope that the design team isn’t shy about saying that “this isn’t in Dark Sun but you can put it in if you want it.” It’s sort of like a variation on their usual mantra – “if it’s in core D&D then it has a place in Eberron (or FR or whatever).” If I really want orcs, I’ll put them in Dark Sun, but I know I don’t want to see some hidden island of the orcs (or suddenly appearing eladrin tower, etc) just so it matches the basic setting. If they’re really bent on making a setting that gets the original flavor and shows how far 4th edition can go, they’ll keep it as close to the original as possible and emphasize the role of the DM in adding or subtracting. Also, is it true that they’re rebooting the setting to 1st boxed set status and making the subsequent novels non-canonical? Wouldn’t be the worst idea, though I wonder about the status of the heroes of Tyr (and Dregoth, for that matter). The first boxed set was darker and more violent, which I think is a good goal for the designers. Cheers!
#2 talaxar Aug 15, 2009 10:22:40	maybe the gray is the shadowfell, and the black is the feywild (or vise versa?). Could the act of the defilers have completely cut the feywild down and warped it? I'm only partly familiar with Athas, but it sounds like that could be an answer.
#3 famoth83 Aug 15, 2009 10:58:28	I’ll keep any planar discussions short by saying that my thoughts align with Talaxar. Further reactions on the planes can be found in my post here. For this thread, I’ll focus my reaction to power sources. With Divine, I wouldn’t be too worried with damage types. I’d create unique elemental channel divinity feats, and then change any reference to angles to archons. Clerics and Invokers fit, though a lack of chain might be a problem. Paladins as they exist in 4th edition fit, though the need for plate might restrict them to being templars only. And Avengers honestly fit the easiest of all, since all the elemental orders are honestly out for blood one way or the other. Ultimately, I’m kind of interested in what they’ll do about the level one armor problem. With Arcane… I’d mostly say that we should limit PCs to being perseveres and then move on. If we don’t let them be evil, it makes sense we won’t let them be defilers. You’re right that Wizards fitting the easiest, so aside from spellbooks I’ll they’ll be good without alteration. Sorcerers are ok with the exception of dragon soul spell source. Warlocks are ok with Star Pact, Dark Pact, and Vestige Pact. Fey Pact would work with how I envision the Feywild. Infernal Pact might be difficult; I have visions of how Hell might fight into the astral sea, but it might be easier to look to a closer source of tyrants. Artificers and Swordmages might not fit in the way of traditions, but with few official arcane orders it is possible to envision hedgearcanists developing the art. Bards might not work in name, but mechanics are great in my opinion. A preserver arcanists hiding their magic in song, really seams up the Veiled Alliance’s alley.