Here is what it says on page 14 of the Dark Sun revised campaign setting -
Approximately 2,000 years before the present day, Borys and most of the Champions betrayed Rajaat and imprisoned him in the Hollow. In exchange for the help theyprovided, Borys gave the Champions that were now loyal to him the following benefits:
First, he allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taughtthem the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings. Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the templars, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time.,, Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon. The Age of the Sorcerer-Kings began with betrayal and was marked by tyranny and slavery. The world was turned into a wasteland by the sorcerer-kings’, defiling
magic, and that has been its state through to the present
This goes against the theme of the Obsidian Oracle. That book says clearly that Borys doesn't possess the power to turn anyone into a Sorcerer King, even with the power of the Dark Lens. It is the reason that King Tithian goes against the Dragon and attempts to free Rajaat. Here is some relevant text from the Obsidian Oracle.
Tithian opened his eyes, then pushed Agis's hand away. "You don't have the nerve to murder me," he sneered. "But it makes no
difference. Athas no longer has anything to fear from me."
"Why's that?" Agis asked, examining the king's head for signs of a serious blow. "Surely you don't expect me to believe you've
decided not to go after the Oracle?"
"What you believe makes no difference!" Tithian yelled, grabbing Agis by the shoulders. He pulled the noble's face dose to his
and gasped, "That worm lied to me!"
"What worm?" Agis asked. "About what?"
"The Dragon!" Tithian cried. "Nal told me. Borys can't make anyone a sorcerer-king-not even with the Dark Lens!"
And his decision to aid Rajaat -
"The lens is a tool," explained Wyan, also speaking in a soft voice. "Like any tool, it's only as powerful as the person using it. In
Borys's hands, it could never make you a sorcerer-king. But in the hands of someone else, someone even more powerful, it could."
"No one's more powerful than the Dragon," Tithian scoffed.
"Wrong," said Sacha. "There is one who could give you what you want: Rajaat."
"Stop wasting my time with your stories," the king hissed. "Rajaat's dead."
"Gone, but not dead," Wyan replied. "What do you think Borys does with his slave levy?"
"He uses their life energy to keep the Shadow People imprisoned in the Black-at least that's what Agis and Sadira think,
according to my spies in the Asticles household," replied the king. He cast a nervous glance down at the crack where Agis waited, but
saw no sign that the noble could hear or see any of what was happening on top of the lid.
"What makes you think a fool noble and his slaves know what they're talking about?" asked Sacha.
In a fawning voice, Wyan added, "Rajaat is not dead, he's locked away-and Borys uses his levy to maintain the spells that keep
him imprisoned."
Tithian accepted the news with little emotion, for he had not yet confirmed its significance to him. "If I take the Dark Lens to
him, Rajaat will make me a sorcerer-king?"
"It's not our place to promise that," Wyan said. "We're only his spies in the city of Tyr."
"But, through the Shadow People, we've told Rajaat of your ambitions," said Sacha. "And we've received word back that if you
aid him, you'll be pleased with your reward."
Tithian smiled and released his grip on the pair's topknots. "What do I have to do?"
The timeline is dead wrong, and because of the error in the timeline, there is confusion between the meanings of Champions, Dragons, and Sorcerer Kings.
A champion is someone given powers by Rajaat to exterminate a certain race. They have a special ability to harm members of that race. A dragon is someone in the process of metamorphosis (or someone that has completed it) to a dragon. Many of the Athasian dragons had their metamorphosis started by Rajaat using the Dark Lens in the steeple of crystals. Rajaat made followers champions to give them a genocidal focus, and then transformed them into dragons to give them the power to commit the genocide. Sorcerer King is not a class at all, but rather a job description.
It seems fairly clear that Borys did not attach the elemental vortices allowing granting of spells to Templars, either. Rather it was either accidental as the vortices were attracted to Advanced Beings (as it says in Dragon Kings) or was deliberately done by Rajaat so that his champions could gather followers (many of which probably thought that the genocide was the order of their "god") to defeat the rebirth races.
The champions used the Dark Lens in a cooperative spell to fully transform Borys into the Dragon. Shortly after Borys went insane, lost the Dark Lens, but still kept the wards imprisoning Rajaat intact during periods of lucidity.
Again, the timeline is dead wrong.
There are several issues at play here. First is the issue that game material trumps novel material. We have to take this stance because during the time that DS was in its later development, the book department and the game department at TSR weren't communicating with each other properly. (Rise and Fall of a Dragon King is the best example of this, but there are plenty of others.)
Secondly, there is the issue that the quotes you are referring to come from "unreliable narrators", namely Sacha and Wyan. Simply put, they are lying to Tithian in order to convince him to free Rajaat. They're duping him, because Rajaat can't make anyone into a sorcerer-king either. He could make Tithian into a Champion, I suppose, but now that the elemental vortices are extinct (with one exception - see Dregoth Ascending) there can never be any more sorcerer-kings.
As for the timeline, Dragon Kings, the timeline in Defilers and Preservers, it is often claimed that they are contradictory and give varying accounts of what happened when compared to the novels. They do not. In fact, they are remarkably consistent. They may not all tell the whole story, but they do tell the same story.
This has come up a number of times already, and I have a series of quotes on hand to illustrate this point
The essence of the tale is this: Rajaat made his followers into Champions, gave them immortality and the power to fuel their spells with energy from obsidian orbs. He hinted at dragonhood, but it was Borys who started the metamorphosis of the Champions into dragons in a ceremony that also drew the attention of the Living Vortices. There is one are of contradiction, but it is actually pretty minor.
For the record, here are the relevant references, including the stuff from Dragon Kings, which contrary to popular belief, doesn't invalidate anything that came later:
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists.
Dragon Kings, page 11
Dragon Kings just tells us that the SKs became joined to the LVs when they cast their first defiler metamorphosis spells and don't even know that they exist. It notes that it is unclear when this metamorphosis began, but makes no other references.
In secret, he showed a select group of others how to use defiling magic. Of these students, he kept watch for powerful mindbenders, for his ultimate plan required those who could combine psionics with defiling magic to transform themselves into a new type of being . . . a being of dark power.
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away With the nature-manipulating powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them. “Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” Rajaat promised, and his Champions believed him.
As the Pristine Tower channeled the sun’s energy into the Champions, the yellow orb changed. It turned crimson and dark, signaling the beginning of a time of blood and death of unprecedented magnitude. It signaled the start of the Cleansing Wars.
Dark Sun Revised Campaign Setting pages 12-13.
Here the Revised Campaign Setting tells us that, prior to the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat made his favourite students into his Champions. This process does two things: it makes them immortal and allows them to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. Nothing more. He hints that their powers of sorcery and psionics can lead them to greater power, promising them that they will become as gods. They believe him. He is referring to the transformation into dragons. But this transformation has not yet begun.
Defilers and Preservers echoes this text almost verbatim:
With the nature-manipulating powers of the Tower at his disposal, Rajaat turned these fifteen disciples into his Champions. Drawing energy from the then-yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs.
Defilers and Preservers, page 19
Once the Champions realise Rajaat's full plans, they betray him and use the Dark Lens to imprison him in the Hollow.
With the help of an artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys and the Champions imprisoned Rajaat beyond the shadow dimension of the Black, in a place of nothingness called the Hollow; they hurled his halfling guards into the Black.
Revised Campaign Setting, page 13
Led by Borys of Ebe, the Champions imprisoned Rajaat beyond the shadow dimension of the Black, in a place of nothingness called the Hollow.
Defilers and Preservers, page 20
Then, Borys uses the Dark Lens again to transform the other Champions into first-stage dragons, dragon-kings. They then use then Lens to turn him into the Dragon and he stands guards over Rajaat. (Note that here is the only contradiction on this topic: The Revised Campaign Setting says that Borys became the Dragon after the other SKs, whereas Defilers and Preservers says that he became the Dragon before the other SKs. Other than that small point, there is agreement across the board.)
First, he [Borys] allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the templars, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time." Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
Revised Campaign Setting, page 14
To make certain that the spells held and the gateways were guarded, Borys underwent the transformations that turned him into the Dragon. The Champions, meanwhile, each assumed control of one of the great cities of the Tyr Region. They became the sorcerer-kings.
With the aid of a magical artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys tied the sorcerer-kings together by connecting them to all the elemental planes. They became magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be accessed. This allowed the sorcerer-kings to imbue their templars with priestly spells, though they couldn’t use priestly magic themselves.
Defilers and Preservers, page 20
So yes, there were no spell-casting templars during the Cleansing Wars. The SKs only gained the ability to grant spells at the time of their transformation at the hands of Borys. All sources agree on this, from Dragon Kings right on down the line. Rajaat did not turn his Champions into dragons, Borys did. The Pristine Tower was not used in the dragon metamorphosis or the attachment to the LVs, the Dark Lens was.
So Dragon Kings doesn't actually give any explanation beyond the fact that the LVs were attached to the SKs at the time of their transformation into dragons. You have to wait until the later books to find out when that was. But they don't actually contradict Dragon Kings.
Beyond the Prism Pentad (for all that it is an execrable waste of paper) does tell us that Borys and the other SKs took possession of the Pristine Tower after imprisoning Rajaat. So it is entirely possible that they did their transformations there. The game material doesn't state that they used it though, but it could well have been the location of their activity. This is on page 6 of that book.
Although it is not game-material, The Obsidian Oracle confirms this. It tells us that the Pristine Tower was the birthplace of the Dragon, but it is explicit in saying that the Dark Lens was responsible for his transformation.
Anyway, apologies for the long reply - it's a pet topic of mine :D. When you get the quotes all sorted out, it's pretty clear from the game material what is going on. Unreliable novel characters prone to telling lies are a secondary source and their assertations are trumped by what is in the game material at the end of the day
.and I'm extremely grateful to those of you who have figured all this out...
b/c it does make things interesting and is a rather interesting back story compared to a lot of other realms out there... very convoluted (sp?) but it does give your PCs something to shoot for... whether it is saving the planet or gaining the power of the gods that Rajaat and Borys and the SKs were shooting for...
but it doesn't do a lot for furthering the 4th edition Dark Sun setting... of course, I am assuming that you are looking to make Athas revisited in 4th edition...
if you are playing 2nd or 3rd edition and just trying to sort out the time lines for yourself and your players then I think Kamelion did a great job of explaining what we know (and what we don't)...
Where would you like to see WotC pick up this thread? Is it better to re-do the Prism Pentad timeline with the PCs in the mix? Should we shoot for a post Pentad timeframe where all of these Dragon/Rajaat/Dark Lens issues have sorta of revealed themselves to those in the know and where Athas is beginning it's recovery? or should they do a Forgotten-Realms-Style-Fast-Forward where the elemental chaos, shadowfell, and all have finally made contact with Athas and structure the "new athas" around the common threads that all the other realms have, but keep the desert/harsh/post-apocalyptic components that make Athas different from your regular fantasy D&D settings?
- JAH
Does anyone here really think that Borys has the ability to transform someone into a Dragon King, even using the Dark Lens?
Yes, there are sources that try to say that Borys has the power to do it, but it doesn't gel with what happened in the Prism Pentad, which is canon material, even if it is not gaming material.
It if is a dragon who can grant spells via an elemental vortex, easy again. Design an Epic Spell that calls and binds an elemental vortex, and also then cast another spell that makes them a dragon.
Look at LoA. Use the metamorphosis spell to make the dragon however you want. Doesn't need to be the same. Could have six limbs plus four tentacles that come out of the back that are poisoned. Could be... anything. really. anything.
In fact, it may be that the only reason that people keep trying to be dragons is that this is the only example they have seen. They don't know anything else is possible because no one else has bothered to think about it. You can't choose what you don't know about.
The Dragon of Tyr was just the biggest baddest guy around for so long that other people just automatically thought of that as powerful.
They even admitted they screwed up forcing the setting down a path dictated by novels...meh.
So, just make up yer own history and time line, that way you keep the MYSTERY of Athas, which is so damned important ot any cmapaign, but especially Dark Sun and Ravenloft!! ;)
more than this, there is no difference between SKs, dragons, and champions.
Champion is just a title. There were no special powers given, as such is never stated anywhere in the Prism Pentad.
When Rajaat's elect were transformed, they were made into 21st level dragon kings. This is the implication in the Prism Pentad. Everything else to the contrary stems from 2nd box detritus, which was poorly written and even more poorly researched.
Everyone keeps making pathetic arguments from technical wordings in Dragon Kings, etc. Stop bending the wordings meaning to make it go your way.
All the adventure modules imply the same level of power between a sorcerer king and any other dragon, save of course that the SKs have been around longer and have had more time to accumulate followers, magical items, experience, and everything else...
The only difference between the champions and other dragons, MAY be, is if you give them automatic spell allowance without rememorization, like Sadira has. if you accept this, then yes, there is a difference, but it ends there.
and Hamanu is the same as the others as far as power goes. Lynn Abbey turning him into super sorcerer king is crap.
enough of this.
redking carries the day here, i must say, fellow darksunians.
more than this, there is no difference between SKs, dragons, and champions.
Champion is just a title. There were no special powers given, as such is never stated anywhere in the Prism Pentad.
When Rajaat's elect were transformed, they were made into 21st level dragon kings. This is the implication in the Prism Pentad. Everything else to the contrary stems from 2nd box detritus, which was poorly written and even more poorly researched.
Everyone keeps making pathetic arguments from technical wordings in Dragon Kings, etc. Stop bending the wordings meaning to make it go your way.
All the adventure modules imply the same level of power between a sorcerer king and any other dragon, save of course that the SKs have been around longer and have had more time to accumulate followers, magical items, experience, and everything else...
The only difference between the champions and other dragons, MAY be, is if you give them automatic spell allowance without rememorization, like Sadira has. if you accept this, then yes, there is a difference, but it ends there.
and Hamanu is the same as the others as far as power goes. Lynn Abbey turning him into super sorcerer king is crap.
enough of this.
Needless to say, I disagree with 100% of this position
. I am, however, impressed by phaaf_glien's ability to pack so much wrongness into one post. Good show :Dand Hamanu is the same as the others as far as power goes. Lynn Abbey turning him into super sorcerer king is crap.
enough of this.
Rikus' sword was unable to strike Hamanu, precisely because he is inherently different than the other sorceror kings. Read the novel a little more carefully.
Also, the fact that Sacha and Wyan couldn't grant spells to Templars sets them apart and marks them as missing something(besides their bodies) that the rest of the SKs have - LIVING VORTEXES that funnel elemental power, and bonded to the others when BORYS made the rebel CHAMPIONS into DRAGONS. and before anyone suggests that the mutilated state of Sacha and Wyan prevented them from granting spells, DREGOTH is UNDEAD and was DEAD for a few days, has even left the local planar environment, and can still grant spells to his Templars.
In our own respective games we see things differently, I for one have the Living Vortexes being part of Rajaat’s Transformation of the Champions – my personal logic as to why: Rajaat is smart, assuming he was able to discover the existence of the Living Vortexes he would have used them to prevent his followers (whom he had plans for destroying anyway) from teaching hoards of others arcane magic (that would make his end goal that much more difficult, if the Champion dies all of his spell casting followers go with him). Yes, this goes against what has been established but it only in my game – not yours.
more than this, there is no difference between SKs, dragons, and champions.
Farcluun, a dragon who is not a champion or a sorcerer king.
Sacha and Wyan, champions who are not dragons or sorcerer kings.
Atzetuk (depending on how you view the Paizo conversion), a dragon and sorcerer king who's not a champion.
All the adventure modules imply the same level of power between a sorcerer king and any other dragon, save of course that the SKs have been around longer and have had more time to accumulate followers, magical items, experience, and everything else...
The only module that actually deals with other dragons is Black Flames, and the only real reason that Farcluun is able to hold his own against Abalach-Re is because they were both weakened by being in Yaramuke and they had a palace fall on their heads.
1) cyrian: take a look at Forest Maker. Abalach-re gets put into that one... some discussion as to her abilities is presented. Also in Dragon's Crown, Hamanu's abilities are discussed in some measure, as in Marauders of Nibenay, and other sources. Nowhere are full stats given, o'course, save for in that stupid Beyond the Prism Pentad, which did a horrible job of writing up pretty much everything, and most definitely should not be considered canon.
And by the way, for those who need it spelled out, i mean no difference between SKs, dragons, champions and all that is that, in 2nd edition terms, they were all just 21st level dragons or above, and nothing else, save for the tiddly bit differences that Terminus Vortexa adroitly brings up, like Hamanu's immunity and such, which is his ONLY difference. There's also the matter of the Tower creation and all that, which i addressed anyway.
2) terminus vortexa: if you look at the old forums, i've done a fair amount of work on the two damned heads. just because Denning doesn't mention them granting templar spells doesn't mean they can't. for instance, we are given no examples of borys' templars casting spells, but that doesn't mean they can't. the head's case is peculiar. who knows? undeath could have severed the line (remember Denning didn't come up with that dumb dragon knock-off called Dregoth, so don't cite him as an example). if one argues they do have the ability, perhaps they found it ridiculous or strategically dangerous to attempt to set up themselves as de-facto SKs of Tyr, because Tithian was king, and more than that, who would perform obeisance to a couple of floating heads?
Oh, and by the way vortexa, all respects for your past works, but if you want to challenge me on my knowledge of the PP, go right ahead and we'll have quite the contest. i've read and remember your other posts... you can look at mine and see who might carry the day. all respects though (i am glorying in my insolence).
in another point vortexa, for clarities sake, since it is apparent that it is required, champion is a title in that being a champion doesn't grant one anything... it's the powers that matter... which is to say the transformation that Rajaat shot up their asses. Denning screwed with the reader's understanding of the transformation.... here or there he says Rajaat did it, here and there he says something a little different. by and large it is rajaat who did the transformation. stop looking to 2nd box timeline junk, which was horribly written and does not fall in line with the PP and other 1st box era material. being a champion doesn't bring special powers beyond those normally associated with dragons... yes yes perhaps they have spell abilities more like sadira's where rememorization and such isn't necessary, and there is the hamanu effect and all that; but there is no champion stage, where they were super cool, and then some separate 21st level dragon stage that came later. being a champion in dragon, in this sense, are one and the same. this idea that they are two different stages came from lynn abbey and 2nd box junk, as well as people's personal desire to bring about their own image of what the SKs should be. the PP and 1st box era stuff, all of which is at the heart of the game, does not support your ideas at all.
More than that, Denning had faults and mistakes that arch-nerds like us would pick out... which creates confusion because he never thought things out from a game perspective as much as he might have, to make things smoother for us. for instance, are you going to say Kalak was not a 21st level dragon because Nok says he was NOT a dragon in the VP? Dragon Kings says Kalak was a 21st level dragon? who's right? Denning was just sloppy sometimes, from a gamer's perspective.
what else can i rant about...
oh yes, redking still has the flavor of being right about what he said in the kicker of this thread. screw 2nd box. unfortunately there are enough internal errors in Dark Sun to make the whole campaign... troublesome to play if you truly got into it.
that's enough for now. challenge me! or better yet, any of you challenge yourselves to question your view of sacred cow conceptions of your Dark Sun world. I have been forced to come to my conclusions in the course of preparing for actual in-depth game play, using the PP and reputable DS materials as guides.
enough.
tango
stop looking to 2nd box timeline junk, which was horribly written and does not fall in line with the PP and other 1st box era material.
tango
Nevertheless, all published 2e material is canon, despite all of our personal opinions about what should and should not be, unless there is a iron-clad, logical reason(other than opinion),that it should not be canon. This occurs only in the case of contradictions. . If one chooses to be very selective, then only the Prism Pentad novels and the Tribe of One saga (because the game material references them and is heavily and directly shaped by them) as well as all 2e gaming materials are canon. They do not contradict each other in any gamebreaking way, and are fairly cohesive.
Lynn Abbey's novels are great stories, and good source material, but definitely are not IMO canonical, as they contradict all of the other material on multiple points, especially planar configuration, the history of Athas, and the mechanics of spellcasting and psionics. And every DM knows, when novels contradict gaming material, gaming material wins , especially in disputes regarding canon.
Material that is canon can be referenced as fact, inasmuch as a work of fiction can be considered to have facts. Therefore, all 2E DS RPG material can be referenced as fact for discussion. With respect, phaaf_glien, much of your argument has been based on an error in your perception of what is 'factual' and 'canon', within the frame of fiction discussed here. The conclusions you've drawn can be considered as logical conclusions, but only if you deliberately limit the scope of material you draw from.
So here it is in a nutshell, and anyone who likes, correct me -
FACTUAL - 2E DS RPG material, 3.5E Athas.org releases, the Prism Pentad
QUESTIONABLE(minor mechanics contradictions with RPG material) - Tribe of One Trilogy, Chronicles of Athas 1-4
BULLSH**(due to contradictions with literally EVERYTHING ELSE) - RAFOADK
Phaaf_glien, you would spare yourself a lot of stress and conflict if you don't try to make others look at things through your limited scpe of what is 'canon'. It's not the framework anyone else here considers 'factual', and actual 'canonical' material contradicts you on many points. Run your game however you like, but it's pointless to try and get everyone else to limit their playing field to suit your idea for how you want your Athas to be. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your opinions (i think a few here share them, as opinions of what would be cool) but your opinions are not 'the way things are'.
.
but...
things matter in real play though dude. say for instance that VP says that the Tyrians were building Kalak's ziggurat for over 100 years, where as the Wanderer's Journal says it's more like twenty, a point which is repeated by Simon Hawke's books and numerous other timelines and other mentionings. it's a pretty big point though. if you start a campaign in Tyr, the campaign will change appreciably if you adopt one or the other timeline. you can't have both as canon. what will you do when one of your newbie player's asks in game some NPC about how long they've been building the thing. the whole dynamic of Tyr will be different based on the answer, including how many slaves are held to the task or not, etc. one could go on forever.
sure, i GUESS it's canon in some sense if it was published by TSR, whatever.
but they dropped the ball with too many things. the dark lens requires a 20th level user to properly access its magical and psionic amplification devices. this is perfectly clear in the PP. but in the foolish and inchoate writeup in PsAoA, no such provision is made, and indeed the whole entry is just, troublesome, if not the whole book.
in the end, if you actually play the game, which i imagine essentially none of us do anymore, a careful DM will come across these problems as he prepares his notes. you can't just rely on the screwed up notes offered by 2nd box set materials and hold it as high canon just because TSR or WotC published it. the game flat out won't work, and you'll be beset with contradictions and just flat out inoperability gallour.
and hey, don't get me wrong. i loved the Tribe of One saga. but there are a lot of problems with it. that dumbass 21st level plus mercenary, or whoever he is in the Broken Blade who gets promised one million gold pieces for a job... that's ridiculous... and can't be used as examples for a way how to run a campaign.
i lament that we at this site don't pool our skills more effectively to produce accurate notes and visions of the world. there is some guy asking how tall some part of Kalak's palace is in the forum right now. if you are actually playing a campaign, that can be important, yet we don't usually tackle such things in these threads. people have hijacked their image of what the sorcerer-monarchs should be like, making it difficult to get proper stats for these important personages who most certainly will be used in gameplay.
i seem to be one of the few who even notes that the Dark Lens was destroyed (google me for the pertinent thread). it's a fact it was destroyed, but we keep going along with the idea that it wasn't. these things do matter, and i would like to build up concensus amongst the DS community so we can work on these matters progressively, instead of building on something that often won't work when attempted by serious players.
redking, although not totally accurate, has the right idea in challenging that ridiculous timeline. if you play it that way that it is, it creates precedents that will screw with gameplay for anyone who gets involved in the higher politics of the tablelands. i am right to argue for a challenge to this, and i applaud redking for being a perceptive reader of the PP, and is willing to challenge the status quo of most everyone else here who sheepishly follows it. god knows i don't, and my players have greater respect for me for it. i mean really, the same aholes who wrote up that timeline were the ones who came up with that totally inoperable psionic system in the 2nd box set, which, although sound in theory, utterly does not work if you ever try to play with it. i had to make massive adjustments to make the psionic MTHAC0 system work at all. if they were that sloppy with mechanics, it is not to far of a stone to throw in saying that they might have been just as sloppy with the timeline.
we should be working on a codex with all important notes from the entire series, so i don't have to hunt for the crappy technical stuff anymore.
so there. that was a fun rant.
until next time.
*my opinions are not the way things are, but at least they reach towards the way things are (F*ck deconstructionist subjectivity!)
i would suggest chronological analysis of material, from the PP and 1st box onward.
let us contest, for instance, what the city-state population numbers are really like. this has been discussed elsewhere, but the populations offered in the 2nd box seem... inappropriate. if hamanu has 10,000 personal warriors, and his whole state populations is some 32,000, even with half that again of added provincials, this is far too high a ratio of soldiers to civilians... something has to give, or you tell me.
Vote Nibenay, Republican Governor of New Hampshire!
The other main reason to give game materials precedence over the novels is that the reader can (or should be able to) trust what he is reading. In the novels, this is notoriously not the case, as they are filled with characters who possess unreliable knowledge, tell lies, or simply don't understand the full picture. The example above of Nok claiming that Kalak is not a dragon is a fine demonstration of that. Nok is wrong when he says this. Simple as that.
Game material trumps novels for purposes of canon.
(I happen to draw on the novels extensively for atmosphere, setting, NPCs, plotlines etc in my games. And I don't even use the timeline and backstory from the boxed set in my own games. But the differences between the merits of novels vs game material is still clear enough to see, irrespective of how you use them.)
granted, the subject of Nok is a complex matter. his statements are, shall we say, complex, and we need not go into them here. my purpose in stating what Nok said was to simply portray an idea, as i thought was clear; i do not necessarily agree with what Nok stated there either.
surely, in a perfect DS universe, i would prefer taking the game rules over the novels myself. god would i! but this is not possible in all cases. Troy Denning was a central planner and founder of DS. he helped write the 1st box set. Denning trumps Hawke and Abbey, both of whom have considerable problems, even if we might enjoy the read. The PP is integral to our understanding of Athasian ancient history, and it is almost entirely from the PP that information for Psionic Artifacts of Athas, City by the Silt Sea, 2nd box set timeline, and really just about everything else comes from. one needs to understand this, and this is the main reason why i put so much emphasis on the PP. the PP is simply one of our main tools for understanding so much about Athas, especially since Denning et al. are so tightlipped about Athas after the fact... apparently the arch star wars nerd would rather write about the death of chewbacca or whatever crap he does with life shaping aliens than he would deign to give us commentary or advice on this world of his that he was central in creating (granted maybe he's held back by copyright or some crap).
yes, novels contradict. even within the PP, there are problems, and anyone dealing with a digest of the PP would quickly become aware of such a thing. but it is the best we got, and we have to deal with it as almost biblical canon if we are to deal with DS at all.
if you want to use game material all the time, you go right ahead. if you actually play in any detailed, thoughtful campaigning on the sands of Athas, which i unfortunately doubt, you would find so much of the game stuff doesn't even work. The PsBoA is a joke... it gets almost everything wrong, even though i still like reading it. the SKs in BtPP... their stats don't even make sense... under the new psionic rules, the number of powers and PSPs they have are literally impossible. dragons don't regenerate in Dragon Kings, but the Dragon of Tyr does in the Wanderer's Journal, as do the SKs and Borys in the PP. what do we do? obviously, appeal to the only thing we can, the PP.
DS, unfortunately, was very poorly managed. contradiction is rife, almost to the point of intolerability. but we love it anyways. apparently a lot of loved 2nd box set stuff. i did too, in the ancient days. it just doesn't work, a lot of it, so i try and hold onto the flavor, but appeal to 1st box and the PP for sanity and structure, or what little there is in the DS universe.
simply put, game material CANNOT always trump canon. the DS community should deal with this fact. i want to stop hearing about the 2nd box timeline. it doesn't make sense... too much of it doesn't at least. the PP harps on 1000 year reigns for the SMs, 2nd box timeline arbitrarily comes up with 2000 years. it makes more sense, 2000, but... The 2nd box timeline doesn't even seem to take into account the info given from the Book of Kemalok Kings as presented in the PP, and just steps all over it.
and furthermore, while i enjoy my rant, i essentially loathe the ridiculous champion prestige class athas.org conjured up... it has no basis, save for 2nd box crap and Abbey. i'm tired of it. the way you guys have it, the heroes would have never been able to do what they did against the SMs. in Crimson Legion, Rikus and his army would have been destructiconned by Hamanu. Denning imagined Hamanu as, essentially, a 21st level dragon, and that's all. his only special is being immune to Rajaat weapon stuff, and the like. and i base this on the PP, straight up.
the shadow people are gone after the events of the Cerulean Storm, deal with it (I argue this more eloquently on other threads, google me).
the Dark Lens is gone after the CS. deal with it. (google for my argument)
and hey, i like shadow giants and the dark lens. and i REALLY like the Dark Lens. but it's pretty freakin clear, Denning got rid of them both, and I was forced to come to this conclusion by reading the PP carefully. i'm fine if you want to roll over it, but deal with consequences of things not making sense, and so forth...
but dear god i understand the desire for the game to trump novels. you try figuring out some cogent way to interpret Sadira's spell abilities after her transformation. it's easier just to say she has to memorize spells like everyone else, but, one has to deal with the consequences.
enough for now.
i tomahawk any who seriously challenge me on these issues.
sure, have it your own way and all that. all for that, I GUESS. your game probably won't work well though if you play with any real depth and for any length of time.
i challenge you camouflage gecko.
granted, the subject of Nok is a complex matter. his statements are, shall we say, complex, and we need not go into them here. my purpose in stating what Nok said was to simply portray an idea, as i thought was clear; i do not necessarily agree with what Nok stated there either.
surely, in a perfect DS universe, i would prefer taking the game rules over the novels myself. god would i! but this is not possible in all cases. Troy Denning was a central planner and founder of DS. he helped write the 1st box set. Denning trumps Hawke and Abbey, both of whom have considerable problems, even if we might enjoy the read. The PP is integral to our understanding of Athasian ancient history, and it is almost entirely from the PP that information for Psionic Artifacts of Athas, City by the Silt Sea, 2nd box set timeline, and really just about everything else comes from. one needs to understand this, and this is the main reason why i put so much emphasis on the PP. the PP is simply one of our main tools for understanding so much about Athas, especially since Denning et al. are so tightlipped about Athas after the fact... apparently the arch star wars nerd would rather write about the death of chewbacca or whatever crap he does with life shaping aliens than he would deign to give us commentary or advice on this world of his that he was central in creating (granted maybe he's held back by copyright or some crap).
yes, novels contradict. even within the PP, there are problems, and anyone dealing with a digest of the PP would quickly become aware of such a thing. but it is the best we got, and we have to deal with it as almost biblical canon if we are to deal with DS at all.
if you want to use game material all the time, you go right ahead. if you actually play in any detailed, thoughtful campaigning on the sands of Athas, which i unfortunately doubt, you would find so much of the game stuff doesn't even work. The PsBoA is a joke... it gets almost everything wrong, even though i still like reading it. the SKs in BtPP... their stats don't even make sense... under the new psionic rules, the number of powers and PSPs they have are literally impossible. dragons don't regenerate in Dragon Kings, but the Dragon of Tyr does in the Wanderer's Journal, as do the SKs and Borys in the PP. what do we do? obviously, appeal to the only thing we can, the PP.
DS, unfortunately, was very poorly managed. contradiction is rife, almost to the point of intolerability. but we love it anyways. apparently a lot of loved 2nd box set stuff. i did too, in the ancient days. it just doesn't work, a lot of it, so i try and hold onto the flavor, but appeal to 1st box and the PP for sanity and structure, or what little there is in the DS universe.
simply put, game material CANNOT always trump canon. the DS community should deal with this fact. i want to stop hearing about the 2nd box timeline. it doesn't make sense... too much of it doesn't at least. the PP harps on 1000 year reigns for the SMs, 2nd box timeline arbitrarily comes up with 2000 years. it makes more sense, 2000, but... The 2nd box timeline doesn't even seem to take into account the info given from the Book of Kemalok Kings as presented in the PP, and just steps all over it.
and furthermore, while i enjoy my rant, i essentially loathe the ridiculous champion prestige class athas.org conjured up... it has no basis, save for 2nd box crap and Abbey. i'm tired of it. the way you guys have it, the heroes would have never been able to do what they did against the SMs. in Crimson Legion, Rikus and his army would have been destructiconned by Hamanu. Denning imagined Hamanu as, essentially, a 21st level dragon, and that's all. his only special is being immune to Rajaat weapon stuff, and the like. and i base this on the PP, straight up.
the shadow people are gone after the events of the Cerulean Storm, deal with it (I argue this more eloquently on other threads, google me).
the Dark Lens is gone after the CS. deal with it. (google for my argument)
and hey, i like shadow giants and the dark lens. and i REALLY like the Dark Lens. but it's pretty freakin clear, Denning got rid of them both, and I was forced to come to this conclusion by reading the PP carefully. i'm fine if you want to roll over it, but deal with consequences of things not making sense, and so forth...
but dear god i understand the desire for the game to trump novels. you try figuring out some cogent way to interpret Sadira's spell abilities after her transformation. it's easier just to say she has to memorize spells like everyone else, but, one has to deal with the consequences.
enough for now.
i tomahawk any who seriously challenge me on these issues.
sure, have it your own way and all that. all for that, I GUESS. your game probably won't work well though if you play with any real depth and for any length of time.
You, sir, are a graceless baboon. I will spend no more time dignifying your uncouth ejaculations than I will on addressing what few flimsy nuggets of value your otherwise pointless rant may have contained. When you have learned to carry yourself with greater finesse, you may return to the feet of the masters once more and petition them for their indulgence. Until then, away with you, and ponder on the price of your unseemly manners.
ad hominem will get you everywhere my friend.
For example, the canon Veiled Alliance accessory puts the city state populations at unbelievably low numbers. 12 000 for Tyr. 27 500 for Balic. The largest city, Raam, has 40 000. These city states have large bureaucracies, many soldiers, great palaces, varied social classes and castes, complicated political systems (a senate in Tyr and a pseudo democracy in Balic), and basically support complex societies that are impossible at those small population levels. Either you treat this canon as a suicide pact, or you look to the novels for the truth. The novels clearly describe large cities, with teeming masses. There should be at least 10 times as many people living in the city states than is written in the Veiled Alliance.
Back to the transformations, there is no suggestion anywhere that the champions of Rajaat started their transformations later, independently of Rajaat. The champions turning Borys into the dragon would mean that they used the lens to accelerate the transformation that was already begun by Rajaat, turning his humanoid form into a dragon form. Nobody would commonly refer to a 1st stage dragon as a "dragon" except in the technical sense, if they knew what the end of the process was. Otherwise a 1st stage dragon is not that noticeably different looking to a regular human. By the way, how would Borys have even known about the defiler metamorphosis process where he already not undergoing it, and how would the other champions know the method by which to help him complete it had they not already been undergoing the metamorphosis? Did Borys just come up with the idea on a whim? "Transform me into a dragon, a being that does not exist in Athas and I have neither seen nor heard about", says Borys to the other champions? It defies logic and common sense. Not to mention that they all coincidently start a defiler metamorphosis later on. Seems unlikely indeed.
Sascha and Wyan are not very good examples of proving that they were not undergoing a defiler metamorphosis or did not have the ability (originally) to grant spells to followers. First off they were just undead floating heads, and were obviously very much weakened from their original forms. The other champions no doubt used magic to curse and weaken them, preventing them from using the greatest of their psionics and magic. The same magic could have prevented them from granting spells to followers, and with Rajaat imprisoned, there was no one else other than the champions (who would not help them) that had the power to break the curses. Their heads were human looking because they were still in the early stages of metamorphosis. The differences in circumstances between Dregoth and Sascha/Wyan make the comparison invalid.
The problem with the timeline as it stands is that it doesn't make *sense*. One has to go through all kinds of mental contortions just to fit the triangle into the box meant for the square.
that's enough for now. challenge me!
As long as no one cites any sources you happen to not like, of course.
You are, for all intents and purposes, quite correct, and I second your recent statements.
For my critics, there are, in scholarly studies, such things as tiers of sources, good books to draw on for facts and evidence on a given subject and less reputable sources to draw on for facts and information. For instance, in Alexander studies, our source Arrian is generally considered, for overall content (although not in everything), to be a superior source when juxtaposed to say for instance, Quintus Curtius Rufus, who, although offering a longer history of Alexander's exploits, with more and richer information, is generally considered being, in the main, an inferior source in comparison to Arrian.
This academic research principle holds true to our sources for DS material, Cyrian. We indeed should be more suspicious of some DS sources than others. Look at the authors for 2nd box set. Slavicsek simply did not do as well as he could have, and he was sloppy in transpositioning of things to his "revised" setting. I could go on and on.
I do not claim to hold the truth on which source is best of not, but I do advocate for debates over the matter. At least have argument for why I should accept the Wanderer's Chronicle timeline over that offered in the PP and 1st box material. Just because it was published 2nd does not mean it automatically trumps what came before it... the folks at TSR were, very unfortunately, just not that careful.
I am advocating the end of blindly following that inchoate timeline. It is a propaedeutic tool in any serious work dealing with DS. Slavicsek did NOT have a thorough command of DS material from the first box era, including the PP. We need only see his other productions of DS material to prove this. His own psionic system doesn't even work... which should have been patently obvious to anyone who ever actually attempted to use it beyond the scope of a single gaming session.
I could easily go on, but that is enough for now.
Let us have some sense and be critical of our sources.
As for this constantly relied upon, rather hackneyed argument that characters in the PP were constantly lying...
This is generally ridiculous. Denning was not writing a work of great subtlety. It was clear when his characters were lying and when they were not. If anything, Denning himself seems to have been confused, and that is why he offers contradictory material, now and again. His own timeline was not, it seems, truly precise, and he may have done this one purpose so as to give himself some latitude.
I have written of this elsewhere, on my long articles on Sacha and Wyan. Confer with those articles if you are interested (q.v. google phaaf_glien sacha and wyan), but the heads, were, in general, with only a little caveating, not lying when they expounded upon the history or historical figures of Athas.
It's tiresome to keep hearing this brought up as an argument as to why the champions went from champions to dragons. This just was not the case. I guess if you just love it that way, then fine, it's your game. It was not Denning's vision though.
Enough for now.
I applaud redking for displaying the perspicacity to come to such conclusions on his own. It would be laudable if the rest of you followed suit, so we could work on solving more quisqous DS problems.
Needless to say, I disagree with 100% of this position
Gave me chills to read.
The example above of Nok claiming that Kalak is not a dragon is a fine demonstration of that. Nok is wrong when he says this.
Is Kalak - in the novel - described as anything more than an old man before he starts syphoning the life energy of his citizens at the end of the novel (a time at which we can be sure he is becoming - or simply is - a dragon because...well, he is described as such) ?
This is my old argument. Kalak does appear in every way as an old man - suggesting he is an old man - before the last few pages of PP1. All other SKs are described - in later novels - as having the appearance of greek gods. Surprisingly, Abbey noticed it too and incorporated that into her notes on which she built Rise and Fall, hence why she said Kalak never was a dragon until he attempted the genocide of his people.
What would it mean that he is nothing more than an old man, immortal or not? When did the decision to make Kalak into a dragon from the get go come onboard? Before the novel was published...or after? After Dragon King was published...i.e. way after the novel? It does look like a screw up on the part of Denning, or a screw up on the part of those who wrote Dragon Kings. Either way, it does look like a very early setting contradiction.
My two cents.
yes indeed, he sure looks like an old man and such... i recall vividly when even Tithian, who isn't too tall, towers over the old codger.
but, nonetheless, Kalak shows incredible strength, which i hope we don't just attribute to strength spells, lifting Tithian up with incredible strength in the first few pages of the VP. Kalak does this elsewhere in the book (exhibit a truly crazy strength).
sure, Denning may have not figured everything out by that point, but Kalak had lived at least a "thousand years" (whatever that means), and that's quite a feat for a non-dragon.
honestly, i betchya when Nok says there are many dragons, he really means that, meaning rather there are several 30th level fully metamorphized dragons out there. hard to say though. one may have sympathies with Lynn Abbey indeed for trying to get something useful out of all of this.
my best wishes
I very much think Nox was correct, until about ten minutes before Kalak died, he was not a dragon. But he was one hell of a powerful spellcaster and psionicist, more than strong enough to make his lack of Dragonhood immaterial to his reign.
Then again when he levitates to the top of his Pyramid didn't it hint he had clawlike hands?
Denning could often be inexact. Nok's reference indeed seems to be exemplative of Denning's early thoughts on dragons on Athas (which were incorrect in comparison to how we understand dragons), and/or inferring the existence of fully metamorphosed 30th level dragons elsewhere on Athas (a point hinted at in Dragon Kings.
And for those of you who like game rules, we have from Dragon Kings, page 11:
In game terms, Kalak tried to go from 21st-level to 30th-level dragon all at once.
Do not let Abbey confuse you. Kalak was one of the champions, which, for our purposes, is equivalent to a 21st level dragon. Most everything of any real value supports this theory. Every other sorcerer king was at least a 21st level dragon, and indeed, most of them were 21st level, only King Tec and Nibenay being 22nd and 23rd level.
Alright, I'm tired now of this subject. Hopefully we can agree with the gist of this.
LOL
ad hominem will get you everywhere my friend.
Going back to add comments to your post after someone has replied to it is very poor etiquette, by the way. Poor show.
And after your swipes at other posters and your insinuations about the lack of competence on the part of board members to offer their opinions, I'd say that your cries of ad hominem are hypocritical at best.
You make a few good points amidst your various misguided broadsides, but they are otherwise obscured by your rudeness. Other posters may be willing to overlook that and engage with you, but I am not. I'd be more than happy to thrash this out with you, but not until you make amends for your needlessly snide tone.
Oh, and leave the pretentious, overly-academic language for an audience that gives a damn about that kind of thing. Here it just makes you look like a jerk.
Oh, and leave the pretentious, overly-academic language for an audience that gives a damn about that kind of thing. Here it just makes you look like a jerk.
Oh kiss me Mark, knight to us all!
Jokes aside, totally agree. On the rest as well.
It did not bode well for this conversation when phaaf_glien stated we might like the "new persona he adopted"...since when do people need to adopt a persona?
ignore the "Official timeline, it's a load of silly, conflicting hoey!"
Come up with your OWN history of Athas.
Nothing ruins a good mystery or setting more, than being railroaded down a damned blind alley, by folks who just want to sell or write books!
See 4th ed Forgotten Realms, muhaha! :D
You can chop and change and tack on a history to a setting, but it doesn't make it right to do so.
Stick with the 1st boxed set, and good stuff from other bits, but IGNORE the hell out of the rest, especially 2nd boxed set and dragon kings, ugh.
"Sorceror kings are something mysterious, powerful and scare the crap out of PCs as well as everyone else"
That's my rule.
once you put stats on a thing, it merely becomes walking XP and game mechanics....
So, yeah, Kalak could go from 21st to 30th level dragon, because it's a fantasy setting. Absorb 10,000 souls in the arena = DING! Dragon lvl 30!
Or maybe the SK's are demigods...or servants of super psurlons, or maybe they are efreeti..who cares, let DMs figure that one out for themselves.
SK's are "McGuffin-people", what they are doesn't really matter. It's their existance and power that makes them important to the game setting!
Oh, and ganking half of them in some so-so novels was bloody ridiculous, for the umpteenth time.
Sorry to impose on your thread, folks. But you see what I mean?
You can say that game material trumps the novels, but then you are left deciding which game material is correct, which becomes a totally arbitrary process.
On certain topics, the game material is simply contradictory. Individual DMs can and should decide how/if they resolve these contradictions. Athas.org has taken the admirable stance, for example, that it will allow these contradictions to stand as sources of inspiration, and not make a determination either way.
Other topics (such as the one outlined in the quotes I posted above) are clear-cut and without significant internal contradiction. They can be taken as-is.
For example, the canon Veiled Alliance accessory puts the city state populations at unbelievably low numbers. 12 000 for Tyr. 27 500 for Balic. The largest city, Raam, has 40 000. These city states have large bureaucracies, many soldiers, great palaces, varied social classes and castes, complicated political systems (a senate in Tyr and a pseudo democracy in Balic), and basically support complex societies that are impossible at those small population levels. Either you treat this canon as a suicide pact, or you look to the novels for the truth.
This is a false dilemma. There are other approaches than the either/or case you present here. What about adding in surrounding villages? WC makes it clear that there are lots of these that come and go with the changing months. What about simply using common sense and deciding to increase the numbers? Or reducing the level of the levy? Or ignoring the levy entirely? Lots of different solutions, each with its own merits and drawbacks.
The novels clearly describe large cities, with teeming masses. There should be at least 10 times as many people living in the city states than is written in the Veiled Alliance.
Maybe there should. But you don't need the novels to reach this conclusion. Many have come to the same conclusion from reading the game material without ever having read the novels (like me).
Back to the transformations, there is no suggestion anywhere that the champions of Rajaat started their transformations later, independently of Rajaat.
Yes there is. In the game material I quoted above.
The champions turning Borys into the dragon would mean that they used the lens to accelerate the transformation that was already begun by Rajaat, turning his humanoid form into a dragon form.
No. Rajaat did not begin their transformation into dragons. Borys did.
Nobody would commonly refer to a 1st stage dragon as a "dragon" except in the technical sense, if they knew what the end of the process was.
How can you assert this? Maybe somebody might use that term of reference. Makes sense to me to call stage 1 by the same name that stage 10 uses.
By the way, how would Borys have even known about the defiler metamorphosis process where he already not undergoing it, and how would the other champions know the method by which to help him complete it had they not already been undergoing the metamorphosis? Did Borys just come up with the idea on a whim? "Transform me into a dragon, a being that does not exist in Athas and I have neither seen nor heard about", says Borys to the other champions? It defies logic and common sense. Not to mention that they all coincidently start a defiler metamorphosis later on. Seems unlikely indeed.
Well, we don't know what sources of knowledge the Champions had access to, so there is no sound reason to discount the possibility that Borys could discover something already hinted at by Rajaat. Additional to this, there are suggestions in City by the Silt Sea that Dregoth discovered the dragon transformation ritual independently of Rajaat. He had access to life-shaping secrets in Giustenal, perhaps similar to those uncovered by Rajaat in the Pristine Tower and elsewhere. There is support for the idea that Dregoth showed Borys and the other Champions what he had discovered.
Sascha and Wyan are not very good examples of proving that they were not undergoing a defiler metamorphosis or did not have the ability (originally) to grant spells to followers. First off they were just undead floating heads, and were obviously very much weakened from their original forms. The other champions no doubt used magic to curse and weaken them, preventing them from using the greatest of their psionics and magic. The same magic could have prevented them from granting spells to followers, and with Rajaat imprisoned, there was no one else other than the champions (who would not help them) that had the power to break the curses. Their heads were human looking because they were still in the early stages of metamorphosis. The differences in circumstances between Dregoth and Sascha/Wyan make the comparison invalid.
I'm not quite following you here. My take is that Sacha and Wyan were Champions who stood by Rajaat and paid the price for their loyalty. They never started the dragon transformation, nor did they have templars of their own. Your own points in this regard are all supposition. That doesn't mean that those ideas don't have their place - they do - but we need to keep it clear where these ideas are coming from
The problem with the timeline as it stands is that it doesn't make *sense*. One has to go through all kinds of mental contortions just to fit the triangle into the box meant for the square.
Not seeing the same contortions that you are, I'm afraid. At least where this topic is concerned, it's pretty straightforward.
For me the most telling issue here is the fact that Denning's novels were never intended to be treated as the defining canon for the setting. Denning has said as much himself. After the first novel, my understanding is that Denning moved into the novel department and the Prism Pentad was thereafter more or less separate from the development of the setting as a whole. Several canon elements have been taken from the novels, but just as many have been discarded. The DS novels make great sourcebooks for the game, but game material they are not, and were never intended to be.
Oh kiss me Mark, knight to us all!
Jokes aside, totally agree. On the rest as well.
It did not bode well for this conversation when phaaf_glien stated we might like the "new persona he adopted"...since when do people need to adopt a persona?
Surely phaaf_glien is already someone's adopted persona?
;)
...snip wisdom...
Sorry to impose on your thread, folks. But you see what I mean?
Indeed. In-play, all bets are off and all canon is legend at best. It is the best approach to take. Picking apart the elements of the DS setting on message boards, however, is Serious Business!
Dregoth was a sorcerer-king before the rebellion against Rajaat. City by the sea of silt, page 8.
Among these was Dregoth, Third Champion of Rajaat the War-Bringer, Ravager of Giants. He took his title very seriously, gathered an army, and marched on Giustenal. At this time the city was under the rule of Taraskir the Lion, a beast-head giant of great presence and personal power. Still, Taraskir and his lion warriors were not able to stop the psionics and sorcery of Dregoth. The Ravager killed Taraskir and slaughtered his chief followers. Then he declared himself Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, and the Cleansing Wars moved into full swing.
After that, no mention is made of Borys turning them into sorcerer-kings.
At some point, the champions learned the true intentions of the War-Bringer. Rajaat didn’t want to eliminate the demihumans so that the humans could rule the new Blue Age as sole masters of the world. He wanted to kill every race spawned by the Rebirth, returning Athas to its original inhabitants - —halflings. The champions rebelled, using their combined powers to imprison Rajaat. Then they used those same powers to transform one of their number, Borys the Dwarf Butcher, into the Dragon. It was to be the Dragon’s job to guard Rajaat through the rest of eternity. The process didn’t go as the champions imagined, for the Dragon went mad. Thus began the Dragon’s century-long rampage. The champions, now called the sorcerer-kings, barricaded their cities and hoped Borys would eventually emerge from his madness.
"The champions, now called the sorcerer-kings", it says. That is all it is. Sorcerer-King is a job description, not something one is changed into. The champions, not wanting to be associated with their role in the genocide they performed as dupes of Rajaat, started calling themselves sorcerer-kings, and changed their names as well.
The revised setting, according to your interpretation of it, would have us believe that and Borys, who had not yet started his transformation (you might say he did so independently but there is nothing to back that up), used the power of the dark lens to combine the champions magic and psionics to start the metamorphosis of the champions, and connected them with living vortices. Then, they in turn turned Borys into the dragon.
While I discount the revised setting as a good source of information about this particular issue, a careful reading of it reveals the folly of your interpretation.
From the revised setting, page 14.
Read carefully. It says that Borys taught the champions to become dragon kings - place emphasis on king, and you will see what Borys did. See the next paragraph - it says nothing about a transformation or metamorphosis into dragons, only a connection to the vortices, and that fact "transformed" them into sorcerer-kings. The third paragraph tells us that being able to give spells to their followers had made them like gods. In any case, even the flawed revised setting is not saying that Borys began their metamorphosis.
The Dragon Kings accessory tells us clearly what is meant by sorcerer king.
From page 10 of Dragon Kings.
The sorcerer-kings of the Seven Cities are, in game terms, defiler/psionicists who have begun the transformation to dragon form. Each sorcerer-king's ambitions and approach to changing physical form are unique. Each is described here in broad terms.
Champion, sorcerer-king, and dragon, are all the same thing. During the cleansing wars, people would have known the current sorcerer-kings as champions. Few would know them at anytime as dragons, as most people simply have no knowledge about the defiler metamorphosis.
It is clear from the evidence of the accessories, along with the PP novels, that the power that Rajaat gave his followers (his "champions") was the first stage of metamorphosis. This gave them immortality, and power to perform their duties in the genocide of the rebirth races.
What he didn't give them was a genocidal focus, a champion template, or anything like that. That is not so important though - I thought it was one of the interesting things about rise and fall of a dragon king, and a champion template could easily be accommodated without rendering the timeline contradictory, so long as the champion template was applied at the same time Rajaat began their defiler metamorphosis. In this case, the champions are a little bit different to defilers that transform themselves into dragons later on. However, it should always be clear that during the time of the cleansing wars, champion of Rajaat was just an individual that had begun their defiler metamorphosis under the aegis of Rajaat.
Had things gone down as your interpret them, Tithian would have taken the Dark Lens to Borys, and Borys would have transformed him into a sorcerer-king. It is for this reason that your ideas do not fit the reality of what went down in the Prism Pentad books.
Kamelion, the main source for your assertion is the revised dark sun setting boxed set. Outside a few ambiguous lines, what evidence is there is the other books that the power that Rajaat gave the champions was anything other than starting their defiler metamorphosis?
In addition to the revised box, this information is also contained in Defilers and Preservers, as stated above. These lines are hardly ambiguous. It's written right there in black and white!
There are plenty of sources that never mention that Borys turned the other champions into sorcerer-kings.
So what? There are plenty of sources that never mention Rajaat (ie, pretty much all of the material released prior to the 2nd box. Does that mean he doesn't exist? Of course not.
The idea that a champion had other special powers, like a genocidal focus, comes from Rise and Fall of A Dragon King.
Indeed. These additional powers are not mentioned in the original material (where a Champion is described as only having two special powers: immortality and the ability to use obsidian orbs to draw spell energy from the living). Seemed like a cool addition to the template, though, lol...
Dregoth was a sorcerer-king before the rebellion against Rajaat. City by the sea of silt, page 8.
Among these was Dregoth, Third Champion of Rajaat the War-Bringer, Ravager of Giants. He took his title very seriously, gathered an army, and marched on Giustenal. At this time the city was under the rule of Taraskir the Lion, a beast-head giant of great presence and personal power. Still, Taraskir and his lion warriors were not able to stop the psionics and sorcery of Dregoth. The Ravager killed Taraskir and slaughtered his chief followers. Then he declared himself Sorcerer-King of Giustenal, and the Cleansing Wars moved into full swing.
So? A sorcerer-king is just a sorcerer who is a king. I'm sure that there were loads of them on Athas at various points and times. This tells us nothing new.
After that, no mention is made of Borys turning them into sorcerer-kings.
Again, so what? CbtSS is not intended to be a comprehensive history of the Cleansing Wars.
At some point, the champions learned the true intentions of the War-Bringer. Rajaat didn’t want to eliminate the demihumans so that the humans could rule the new Blue Age as sole masters of the world. He wanted to kill every race spawned by the Rebirth, returning Athas to its original inhabitants - —halflings. The champions rebelled, using their combined powers to imprison Rajaat. Then they used those same powers to transform one of their number, Borys the Dwarf Butcher, into the Dragon. It was to be the Dragon’s job to guard Rajaat through the rest of eternity. The process didn’t go as the champions imagined, for the Dragon went mad. Thus began the Dragon’s century-long rampage. The champions, now called the sorcerer-kings, barricaded their cities and hoped Borys would eventually emerge from his madness.
"The champions, now called the sorcerer-kings", it says. That is all it is. Sorcerer-King is a job description, not something one is changed into.
Agree completely. Sorcerer-king is just a job description for someone who is both a sorcerer and a king.
The champions, not wanting to be associated with their role in the genocide they performed as dupes of Rajaat, started calling themselves sorcerer-kings, and changed their names as well.
Sounds about right to me.
The revised setting, according to your interpretation of it, would have us believe that and Borys, who had not yet started his transformation (you might say he did so independently but there is nothing to back that up), used the power of the dark lens to combine the champions magic and psionics to start the metamorphosis of the champions, and connected them with living vortices. Then, they in turn turned Borys into the dragon.
While I discount the revised setting as a good source of information about this particular issue, a careful reading of it reveals the folly of your interpretation.
No it doesn't!
From the revised setting, page 14.
Read carefully. It says that Borys taught the champions to become dragon kings - place emphasis on king, and you will see what Borys did.
No, you have misrepresented the text. It says Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon-kings. I'm going to nod sagely here and point out that this only strengthens my position. Borys most definitely showed them the step from "job-description" sorcerer-king to super-powered dragon king.
See the next paragraph - it says nothing about a transformation or metamorphosis into dragons, only a connection to the vortices, and that fact "transformed" them into sorcerer-kings.
It does not talk about transforming into sorcerer-kings. Feel free to find a direct quote to support this if you like ;). The previous paragraph tells us we are discussing a change from sorcerer-king to dragon-king, and the current paragraph goes on to talk about "the transformation of the sorcerer-kings" and "metamorphosing spells" and the ensuing connection to the elemental vortices. I really don't see how it can be any more obvious! Borys is helping the Champions to become dragons.
The third paragraph tells us that being able to give spells to their followers had made them like gods. In any case, even the flawed revised setting is not saying that Borys began their metamorphosis.
The third paragraph does not explicitly state that the ability to grant spells to their templars is what makes them like gods. It might well be the case, but we cannot deduce that without question. Simply being an immortal spellcaster with the power to raze a city might also qualify as a godlike attribute, for example.
The Dragon Kings accessory tells us clearly what is meant by sorcerer king.
From page 10 of Dragon Kings.
The sorcerer-kings of the Seven Cities are, in game terms, defiler/psionicists who have begun the transformation to dragon form. Each sorcerer-king's ambitions and approach to changing physical form are unique. Each is described here in broad terms.
Again, how does this invalidate any of the points I have made? "Sorcerer-king" is just a job-description, and Dragon Kings tells us that the sorcerer-kings of the Tablelands are also defiler/psionicists who are undergoing dragon metamorphosis. These are separate categories.
Champion, sorcerer-king, and dragon, are all the same thing.
No they are not. Even in interviews, Denning made distinctions between these categories.
Champion: One of Rajaat's students, empowered by Rajaat and leader of a genocidal army in the Cleansing Wars.
Sorcerer-King: A ruler of a city who is also a powerful spellcaster (usually a defiler).
Dragon: A defiler who has used psionic enchantments and epic magic to transform into a dragon.
These categories are separate and sometimes overlap. Sacha and Wyan were Champions, but never dragons. They may have been sorcerer-kings prior to or during the Cleaning Wars, we just don't know. Myron was a Champion who never became a sorcerer-king or a dragon. Borys, Kalak, Hamanu and the others were all three. Farcluun and Graytch are dragons, but not Champions or Sorcerer-Kings. Seems quite clear to me, and is amply supported by the game material.
During the cleansing wars, people would have known the current sorcerer-kings as champions. Few would know them at anytime as dragons, as most people simply have no knowledge about the defiler metamorphosis.
Agreed completely.
It is clear from the evidence of the accessories, along with the PP novels, that the power that Rajaat gave his followers (his "champions") was the first stage of metamorphosis. This gave them immortality, and power to perform their duties in the genocide of the rebirth races.
Although he imbued them with power, it was not the first stage of the dragon metamorphosis. There is nothing to support this assertion anywhere in the game material. As for the PP, I'd like to see more direct quotes. But don't forget that by the time Denning got around to writing the Rajaat stuff in the PP, he no longer had very much to do at all with the game side of things, and so we should expect his writing to bear decreasing resemblance to the actual game-world.
What he didn't give them was a genocidal focus, a champion template, or anything like that. That is not so important though - I thought it was one of the interesting things about rise and fall of a dragon king, and a champion template could easily be accommodated without rendering the timeline contradictory, so long as the champion template was applied at the same time Rajaat began their defiler metamorphosis. In this case, the champions are a little bit different to defilers that transform themselves into dragons later on. However, it should always be clear that during the time of the cleansing wars, champion of Rajaat was just an individual that had begun their defiler metamorphosis under the aegis of Rajaat.
Needless to say, I don't agree with this bit at all!
Had things gone down as your interpret them, Tithian would have taken the Dark Lens to Borys, and Borys would have transformed him into a sorcerer-king. It is for this reason that your ideas do not fit the reality of what went down in the Prism Pentad books.
Nonsense. Tithian's decisions were influenced by his "reliable" mentors. He would have done whatever Sacha and Wyan told him to do: specifically, take the Dark Lens to the Black Sphere in Ur Draxa so that the Lens could release Rajaat. Everything else is just flim-flam, sham, and chicanery on the part of the floaty heads.
Bawan Nal allowed Tithian a moment to contemplate Agis's fate, then pinched the king between a massive thumb and finger.
"Tell me what reward you expected in return for stealing our Oracle," the Saram ordered. He pressed his fingertips toward each other,
painfully compressing Tithian's chest. "Or must I squeeze the answer from you?"
"What does it matter to you?" the king asked. "You have no choice except to yield the Oracle."
The Saram's ears twitched several times, and he brought Tithian closer to his eye. "You're the one without choices."
As Nal's beak closed, the king heard the soft hiss of a deep breath. The bawan's eye suddenly grew cold and still, and Tithian
found his attention riveted on the yellow orb. He tried to look away and could not.
Realizing that his mind was about to be attacked, Tithian visualized his defense: an unbreakable net of transparent energy, so
fine that not even a gnat could slip through the mesh. At its edges, the strands were fused to the feet of a dozen huge bats, with red
flame where their eyes should have been and mouths filled with venom-dripping fangs.
Tithian had barely managed to move his trap into position before a glimmering white lion with wings came roaring into his
mind. The creature hit at a full charge, filling the dark grotto with sizzling echoes and flashing blue sparks. The beast stretched the net
across half the cavern before Tithian's bats managed to catch up and close their web tightly enough to bind the immense wings to its
sides.
The lion roared in rage, then plummeted straight for the deepest, darkest abyss in Tithian's mind. The king sent his bats up
toward an exit. As they struggled to obey, Nal's construct changed from flesh to rock, growing heavier and heavier, dragging its
captors deeper into the Tyrian's intellect.
Tithian summoned more energy to enlarge his bats. The effort wore on him, but he did not stop until each bat was the size of a
kes'trekel. If he let the lion escape, he knew it would require so much energy to recapture it that he would be too weak to
counterattack.
The lion's fall slowed for a moment, then the construct changed from rock to iron, doubling in weight all at once. The beast
passed out of the main grotto, dragging Tithian's huge bats along into the black pit at the base of his mind.
The lion opened its mouth, but it was Nal's voice that came out. "Tool!" he chortled. "You cannot overpower me. I have the
Oracle!"
The construct began to claw at its net, pulling the bats down toward its reach. Calling on the last of his strength, Tithian tried to
dissolve the mesh and let Nal's construct fall free, but he was too late. The beast had the bats by their legs, and as it continued through
the darkness, it clawed and gnawed at their stomachs. Within instants, it had devoured the Tyrian's ambushers and was plunging
freely toward the center of the king's mind. It did not even bother to flap its wings and break the fall.
A short time later, there was a deafening reverberation as the lion's iron body struck the bottom of the pit. It gave a great roar,
and golden beams began to shine from its eyes. "Let's see what you're hiding down here, shall we?"
The lion ran its glowing eyes over the pit walls, until it found a single, winding tunnel opening to one side. With a low growl of
satisfaction, it bounded away. Venomous lizards leaped out of the shadows and clamped steel-toothed jaws around the beast's legs,
while blood-drinking scorpions dropped onto its head to stab at its eyes with dripping barbs. The construct countered by crushing the
reptiles underfoot and flinging the arachnids off with vigorous head shakes, but many attacks still found their marks.
The attackers' venom did not slow the lion down at all. Beads of syrupy fire dripped from the wounds on its legs, and tears of
acid poured from the eyes. Both fluids neutralized the poison long before it could cause any damage to the beast.
The tunnel opened into a chamber supported by hundreds of ebony pillars. On each column hung a single torch, burning with a
black flame that absorbed light instead of casting it. The only sound was of a man chuckling in a soft, maniacal voice.
The fur along the lion's spine stood fully erect. It dropped to its belly and slunk through the murk until it reached the front of the
room. There, in a throne of human bones, sat King Tithian of Tyr. In one hand, he cradled the obsidian scepter of a sorcerer-king, in
the other, the disembodied head of his only friend: Agis of Asticles.
"Now you know what Borys promised: my heart's desire," said Tithian's figure.
A purple light glimmered deep within his scepter's pommel, then Agis's head spoke. "You may leave now. His Majesty prefers
to be alone." To reinforce the command, Tithian pointed the scepter at the unwelcome intruder's head.
The lion opened its maw as if to roar, but the sound that filled the little room was a deep, booming laugh.
****
The Castoffs swarmed over Agis, pressing their ethereal mouths to his skin wherever it was exposed. Each touch sent a searing
pain deep into his flesh, raising a ghastly red welt that continued to bum long after the agonizing kiss had ended. Although most of the
lips pressing against him belonged to children, they were easily two or even three times the size of his own, and the blisters they left
were enormous.
Agis rose. "Stop it!" he yelled, almost losing his balance as Fylo's stomach shifted beneath his feet. "Leave me alone!"
The Castoffs rushed away from him, staring in astonishment at his upright form. "How can he stand the pain?" gasped one.
"He must have a strong mind," said another.
"No, it's something else," replied the face of a button-nosed woman, one of the few visages that appeared to be an adult. "It
might be wiser to leave this one alone."
As the faces voiced their opinions, Agis climbed toward Kester and had his first clear view of the pit. The shaft had an irregular,
rectangular shape varying greatly in width. As he had noted earlier, the walls were covered with huge quartz crystals, and from the
interior of each one shined a silvery light By this pale glow, Agis saw more than a hundred yellowed giant skulls hanging on the
walls, each carefully positioned on the tip of a crystal.
When Agis reached the tarek's side, the Castoffs descended on the noble again. They began to rub their cheeks against his skin,
causing long streaks to turn brown and slimy. The putrid stains filled him with a dull anguish, and he felt instantly queasy and
feverish.
Agis closed his eyes and focused his concentration on the core of his being, letting the sickening anguish of decay wash over
him without fighting it. He focused all his thoughts only on the mystic truths of the Way, truths that allowed him to accept his pain
and use it to transcend his mortal body.
Once he felt in control of his agony, the noble said, "Enough games. Leave us alone, or you shall regret it."
A few Castoffs stared at him in amazement, but most continued to assault both him and his friends. Agis closed his eyes and
drew energy from his spiritual nexus. Soon, his tortured body buzzed with the power he needed. In his mind, the noble visualized
more than a hundred open hands, then opened his eyes and projected one from inside his head to each spirit's cheek. The palms struck
their targets with resounding slaps, melding into the face and leaving behind black impressions of themselves.
Once he had marked the Castoffs, the noble said, That's to let you know I can carry out my threats. If I must defend us again, I
won't be so lenient"
Crying out in alarm, the Castoffs rose into the air and hovered above his head.
Agis knelt down to examine Kester. Where the glowing faces had been rubbing against her back and shoulder, her thick hide
had shriveled into a desiccated, wrinkled mass. The noble turned her over and found her front side in even worse condition. She had
long since fallen unconscious, but her face remained racked with pain. The hide covering her neck and breasts was as grotesquely
creased as that on her back, save that the outer layers of skin were falling away in a dusty powder.
Agis used a few strands of scraggly beard to secure her beneath Fylo's chin, then turned his attention to the giant. The halfbreed's
face had become as grossly misshaped as that of any Saram child. One of the eyes had nearly doubled in size and now bulged
from its socket with all the precariousness of a ball at the edge of a shelf. The other had grown smaller, sinking so far beneath his
brow that it was barely visible. His nose had somehow been rearranged so that it had a separate passage running down to each nostril,
with a long cleft in between. Even his buck teeth had not escaped alteration, and now splayed out in opposite directions like the two
branches of a forked stick.
Agis looked up at the faces hovering over his head. "Why have you done this?" he yelled.
The Castoffs descended toward him in a slow circle, their immaterial visages twisted into bizarre masks of regret or rancor, he
could not quite tell which. Ghostly sobs poured from the lips of several children, while ethereal tears streamed down their cheeks and
vanished into the black air.
"We're scared!" wailed a little girl.
"And lonely!" added a boy.
"Why did they put us down here?"
With each cry, a pang of anguish pierced Agis's breast, filling him with a deep sense of regret. Every complaint added to his
sorrow, and his heart grew heavy and weak. Soon, he felt like a terrible weight was pressing down on his chest, and it hurt to breathe
until the Castoffs continued to pour grief into him, until he felt so gorged with misery that he feared he would burst.
"Stop it!" Agis yelled.
The noble summoned the energy to use the Way and closed his eyes again, this time seeing a hammer with white-feathered
wings on its handle. Once he had it locked firmly in his mind, he looked toward the highest hanging skull and projected the image
there. It appeared an instant later, its white wings keeping it aloft with slow, graceful arcs.
"This is your last warning!" the noble said.
When the Castoffs continued to wail, he drew the hammer back. Before he could strike, the face of the button-nosed woman
who had spoken earlier descended in front of him. She looked more like a shoorsh than a Saram, with no obvious deformities and
diamond-shaped eyes that had a surprisingly gentle equality to them.
"Please, don't!" she said. "The grief you hear is genuine. They can't help themselves."
Agis held his blow, but pointed to his unconscious friends. "Could they help themselves when they did that?" he demanded.
"I know their behavior seems cruel to you, but you don't know the reason for it," she replied.
"Tell me," the noble said, still keeping the hammer poised to strike.
The woman shook her head. "I'll try, but how can you understand what you can't possibly feel?" she asked.
"You'd be surprised by what I understand," Agis countered.
"Not this. Your heart is too good."
Agis frowned, wondering if she were trying to flatter him. "What can you know of my heart?"
"I know that it's purer than those crystals," she replied, gesturing at the spikes of quartz growing from the walls. "Otherwise, you
wouldn't have resisted the magic we draw through them."
Agis glanced at the silvery glow inside a nearby crystal. "Magic from the Oracle?" he asked, remembering what Nal had said
about needing the lens to keep the Castoffs in the pit.
The woman nodded. "It's what sustains us-and it supplies the magic that runs through the crystal lid that keeps us locked in this
prison."
"That's very interesting, but it doesn't explain the cruelty of your friends."
The woman cast a sorrowful look at the faces hovering above. "That is how children become when you lock them away," she
said. "They'll take out their anger on whatever is weaker than themselves."
Agis allowed his hammer to fade away. "Then if we don't want them to be cruel, I suppose we'll have to free them, won't we?"
The spirit looked doubtful. "Don't raise their hopes," she said. "That isn't something you can do."
"I think it is," Agis replied, craning his neck upward to study the lid. "And you can help by reviving my friends. We'll need
them."
As he spoke, Tithian's gaunt form landed on the crystal cover with a dull thump. A high-pitched hum reverberated through the
lid, and the king's body began to pass through to the noble's side of the barrier.
The Castoffs started to rush up toward him. "We'll have none of that!" Agis yelled. To himself, he added, "Even if the serpent
deserves it."
The faces stopped and looked to the button-nosed woman for instructions. "I suggest you do as he says if you ever want to return
to your bodies," she said.
As the Castoffs reluctantly dispersed, Tithian passed the rest of the way through the cover. He plummeted onto Fylo's midriff,
causing the giant's body to tremble violently. For a moment, Agis feared the half-breed would come dislodged, sending them all
plunging into the dark abyss below, but the giant sank only a few feet. If anything, the impact seemed to lodge him into place even
more securely.
Tithian groaned and tried to rise. Then, his eyes rolling back in his head, he fell motionless. Agis slipped down Fylo's chest and
touched his finger to the king's throat. He felt a strong, regular pulse.
"It would probably be better for Athas if I killed you right now," Agis said, using a finger to lift one of the king's eyelids.
Tithian opened his eyes, then pushed Agis's hand away. "You don't have the nerve to murder me," he sneered. "But it makes no
difference. Athas no longer has anything to fear from me."
"Why's that?" Agis asked, examining the king's head for signs of a serious blow. "Surely you don't expect me to believe you've
decided not to go after the Oracle?"
"What you believe makes no difference!" Tithian yelled, grabbing Agis by the shoulders. He pulled the noble's face dose to his
and gasped, "That worm lied to me!"
"What worm?" Agis asked. "About what?"
"The Dragon!" Tithian cried. "Nal told me. Borys can't make anyone a sorcerer-king-not even with the Dark Lens!"
*****
Tithian pulled forth a pair of iron cages connected by a heavy chain. Inside the little prisons sat the disembodied heads of two
men, their hair pulled into long topknots. One had sallow skin and sunken features, while the other was grotesquely bloated, with
puffy eyes swollen to dark, narrow slits.
"Sacha! Wyan!" Agis gasped. He looked to Tithian, then demanded, "Where have you been hiding those two wretches?"
"That's none of your concern," Tithian replied. "But perhaps we should have them levitate down to the pit bottom. They could
look for an escape route without disturbing any bones, then report back to us. That way, we'd know whether or not there's any point to
this argument."
"We'd rather see you die here," said the bloated head, licking his chin with a long gray tongue. "At least we could make a decent
meal of you."
"Sacha's right," agreed the other. "What makes you think we'd help you?"
Tithian fished a key from his satchel. Both heads fell instantly silent, fixing their eyes on the tiny piece of carved bone.
"I'm willing to set you free," said Tithian. "After all, we no longer have reason to remain enemies."
"Your personality is reason enough," sneered Sacha.
"His character can be overlooked, if he lets us out of here," objected Wyan. "But what about Borys? As I recall, he told you
never to let us out of these cages."
"I think you know about Borys," replied Tithian. "As do I, now. You could have saved me a lot of trouble by telling me he was
lying."
A cruel smile creased Sacha's lips. "And ruin our fun?" he asked. "Watching you play at being a sorcerer-king was too
amusing."
"Besides, would you have believed us?" asked Wyan. "You had to discover the truth for yourself."
*****
The king found Sacha and Wyan waiting for him, hovering at the edge of the black circle. He snatched them by their topknots
and slammed their faces into the crystal lid.
"Why'd you do that?" demanded Sacha.
"Because I want to!" Tithian replied. He plucked the throwing dagger from Wyan's cheek, then shook it at the two heads. "Just
be thankful I'm not using this to pluck your eyes out!"
This is not the way to treat your saviors," objected Wyan, spitting out the broken nub of a gray tooth.
"Saviors!" Tithian roared. "By attacking Fylo you almost got me stuck down there."
"A small risk to take," said Sacha, speaking in a voice quiet enough that no one beyond Tithian's earshot could hear it. "You
can't have Agis or anyone else around when you recover the Dark Lens."
Tithian held the heads up and frowned suspiciously. "Why not?" he asked. "After the way the Dragon lied to me, I'd just as soon
let Agis kill Borys."
"That would be acceptable," replied Sacha. "Except that I'm sure Agis would want to keep the lens afterward-and you don't want
that."
"Why not?"
"The lens is a tool," explained Wyan, also speaking in a soft voice. "Like any tool, it's only as powerful as the person using it. In
Borys's hands, it could never make you a sorcerer-king. But in the hands of someone else, someone even more powerful, it could."
"No one's more powerful than the Dragon," Tithian scoffed.
"Wrong," said Sacha. "There is one who could give you what you want: Rajaat."
"Stop wasting my time with your stories," the king hissed. "Rajaat's dead."
"Gone, but not dead," Wyan replied. "What do you think Borys does with his slave levy?"
"He uses their life energy to keep the Shadow People imprisoned in the Black-at least that's what Agis and Sadira think,
according to my spies in the Asticles household," replied the king. He cast a nervous glance down at the crack where Agis waited, but
saw no sign that the noble could hear or see any of what was happening on top of the lid.
"What makes you think a fool noble and his slaves know what they're talking about?" asked Sacha.
In a fawning voice, Wyan added, "Rajaat is not dead, he's locked away-and Borys uses his levy to maintain the spells that keep
him imprisoned."
Tithian accepted the news with little emotion, for he had not yet confirmed its significance to him. "If I take the Dark Lens to
him, Rajaat will make me a sorcerer-king?"
"It's not our place to promise that," Wyan said. "We're only his spies in the city of Tyr."
"But, through the Shadow People, we've told Rajaat of your ambitions," said Sacha. "And we've received word back that if you
aid him, you'll be pleased with your reward."
Tithian smiled and released his grip on the pair's topknots. "What do I have to do?"
Before the heads could answer, Kester came rushing back from the bridge. She stopped at the edge of the pit, about two yards
from the blade that had pierced Sacha's temple. In her hands, the tarek held the last pair of throwing knives from her harness. Her eyes
were fixed on the dagger in Tithian's hand.
Inside his mind, Tithian heard Wyan's voice. Get rid of her. She's sided with Agis.
I think it is likely that the author of the revised campaign setting simply misread the Prism Pentad and came to the wrong conclusion, thus the information given there.
While you have read the revised campaign setting correctly, it doesn't change the fact that it contradicts the Prism Pentad novels.
At the risk of repeating myself, so what? The novels were written separately from the game material, and often with little to poor communication between novel department and game design. We have been told this by more than one DS designer/novelist in interviews over the years. It is only to be expected that they contradict one another. The point I am making is that (on the subject of champions, sorcerer-kings and dragons at least) there is plenty of solid material in the game-line, regardless of the contradictions inherent in the novels.
It was not Sascha and Wyan decieving Tithian. He came to the realization that Borys cannot transform him into a sorcerer king by himself. Here is the text. It is as clear as day.
It was Sacha and Wyan deceiving Tithian! Your quotes show it clearly. They let Tithian think that if he goes and frees Rajaat, he will be "pleased with his reward". They know full-well that Tithian will get nothing at all from Rajaat. They just want him to go to Ur Draxa with the Lens. As we see in the end of the Cerulean Storm, the mere proximity of the Lens to the Black Sphere is enough to release Rajaat. Tithian was being duped into carrying this out. The Dragon tried to trick him as well, but of course it couldn't make another sorcerer-king either (with granted spells and templars). No-one can.
I think it is likely that the author of the revised campaign setting simply misread the Prism Pentad and came to the wrong conclusion, thus the information given there.
Bill Slavicsek was on the Dark Sun team as far back as Slave Tribes and worked on a number of DS products before becoming lead developer for the revised setting. So I find it highly unlikely that he didn't know the background of the setting. Mind you, with the split between the game design and novel writing departments, it's possible that he had misread the PP. But if so, why is this a problem? The author of the Prism Pentad himself has said that he didn't think that the novels should have been anything more than inspiration for Dark Sun DMs, and were not intended to be canonical texts against which the game material should be held. In light of this, I am finding it increasingly odd that people seem to want the Prism Pentad to be seen that way.
If Troy Denning won't comment on it, maybe Bill Slavicsek can?
I appreciate Terminus Vortexa's allowance of Kalak's dragonhood, etc. He stated he prefers it a different way, which I much sympathize with and understand. If it is enjoyable, I say go for it. However, for purposes of canonacy, it is useful for the DS community to come upon some sort of consensus.
The Lion of Kamels seems to be staunchly devoted to his conception of lying Sachas and Wyans, and what have you. The Great Gecko does make some valid points however. Certainly, Sacha and Wyan may very well have been lying in the sense that they knew very well that Tithian would never be rewarded by Rajaat in a way pleasing to the king of Tyr. It certainly would fit their MO. Also, Kamelion is astute in observing Denning's thoughts on the canonacy of his novels, and how he would doubtless berate the likes of the Scarlet Monarch and I for relying on them so.
Sacha and Wyan liked treating others as Clueless though, to use the Planescape term, and Red King is quite correct to demonstrate, with useful quotations, that all evidence points to their being correct that Tithian was more than disappointed in realizing that Borys could not fulfill his chief ambition, and it is for such reasons that Tithian betrayed the Dragon so.
In context of the PP, and indeed from other products, your argument in this matter is valiant but nonsensical, Kamelion, and it would be useful for you to at least consider the option that you are in error. I consider the option that you are correct all the time, but I cannot get it to work out logically. Perhaps if you persist, I will join Red King in gaining the muster to arguing out the minutia with you.
Your thoughts towards Denning's feeling of canonacy is more apt, and in a practical sense is at the heart of the matter.
Much of our arguments on these topics would be, one would think, largely irrelevant for normal play. PCs should not be dealing with the SMs on any regular basis, and indeed, I could easily imagine an entire campaign, from 3rd to 20th level in 2nd edition terms, proceeding without any interaction with the SMs at all. It might even be best that way, and thus there is no need to map out SM stats and a full exegesis of their history and affairs. Furthermore, Denning... oh, I am tired of this. You should finish this red king.
...
Denning doesn't play the ridiculous campaign enough. Serious players often hate logical inconsistencies in their games. Problems mount up, when, despite the game most obviously being fantasy, certain items of information just cease to be very believable. We suspend belief in imagining dragons, fireballs, psionics, etc. But it becomes irritating when, for instance, we play out Road to Urik, and the DM has the players experience the vast image of Tithian over his army as mentioned in CL, Sadira and Agis describing it as being "dragon magic." Is it or is it? Are we just going to throw out such things? Can Sacha and Wyan use psionics? Verbal spells even? Tithian seems to indicate so in the CL (look it up if you don't believe me). When game products don't fill us in, we look to what we make up, or, for sanities' sake, to something like the PP, which is not a perfect source, but can help out a lot. Yes, Denning said don't do that, and don't follow his slavishly as far as the novels go, but in real game play with such issues it is hard not to follow the novels as a useful tool for bringing order to a muddled campaign world. The players will get irritated if you play Sacha and Wyan as being little more than floating heads with no powers, and then you as the DM suddenly change your mind to save the heads from your PCs when they manifest 21st level psionic powers, etc. You'll have to choose as a DM.
Timelines matter. If you want to populate Athas with undead dungeons of the ancients and the like, it won't do to have ghosts and crap having a muddled story...
Tired.
Sorry, but sometimes it's useful to draw upon examples and such from the PP, regardless of what Denning said. I know Slavicsek worked on a bunch of stuff, but red king is right; it seems quite obvious that Slavicsek just misread the Pentad to get his timeline. And that is very understandable. Perhaps I am just an idiot (I bow low and politely to those who so accuse me of this in this matter), but it took me a long time to truly understand the PP. The timeline is confusing, especially because characters do offer slightly different interpretations of things about ancient Athasian history, especially on such pertinent matters as the origins of the sorcerer-kings. I had to read very slowly and look for rather tiny details and nuances to even attempt to make sense of it all. It seems clear to me that Slavicsek did not do that, and/or he just felt he should be able to go his own way with things. Either way, he is largely responsible, in such sloppiness, for the arguments we are all having now.
My point is that Slavicsek did not create DS. Guys like Brown and Denning did. The PP is the center-work novel series for the campaign. If there is trouble with later supplements, and we feel queasy about them, it makes sense to appeal to the creators, to the founding products. After all, we are fairly cultic arch-nerds for going on like this about a game that is nearly 20 years old at this point, and as arch-nerd cultists it is useful to observe the practices of our fellows in other religions, who appeal to the sources and origins of their faith when times get tough (Christians and Muslims alike appeal to their understanding of their original communities in antiquity when they have doubts about their present sources of religious authority).
Perhaps you all don't like cults...
Well, I think I've made my points for now.
My respects.
We seem unable to appeal to the Creators.
(It really is a religion isn't it? God just never seems to answer...)
I imagine though, that, just like God, Denning could certainly clear up a few things, couldn't he?
By revised, I assume Slavicsek would hope, although not command, us to prefer his boxed set.
A revision is a new order!
At the risk of repeating myself, so what? The novels were written separately from the game material, and often with little to poor communication between novel department and game design. We have been told this by more than one DS designer/novelist in interviews over the years. It is only to be expected that they contradict one another. The point I am making is that (on the subject of champions, sorcerer-kings and dragons at least) there is plenty of solid material in the game-line, regardless of the contradictions inherent in the novels.
But the events of the Prism Pentad are infact canon. Sascha and Wyan had their own agenda, but when they affirm Tithian's statement that Borys cannot turn him into a sorcerer-king, they are not lying, as I demonstrated. According to Rajaat in the Cerulean Storm, Rajaat has the power to turn people into sorcerer-kings, even in the present day Athas. See the prologue of the Cerulean Storm.
What of the Usurper? asked Khidar. Will you make him a sorcerer-king?
"Yes, I'll keep my promise, provided he honors the cause of the Pristine Tower,
Rajaat answered.
And if he betrays us like Borys and the others?
My new champion will never do such a thing, the skeleton replied. After he
witnesses the fate of the other traitors, he will not dare.
Before you say it, I will. You will say that Rajaat was either lying or mistaken (with Rajaat never having read the Dragon Kings accessory and being unaware that the living vortices are extinct), or that it doesn't matter because the Prism Pentad is irrelevant anyway. Never mind that Rajaat doesn't have a reason to lie to his servant.
There is one reason, and one reason only, that the living vortices are extinct. It is to shoot down player demands that they be able to grant spells to templars as advanced beings. Knowing the motivations of the designers helps us decide when to follow what they are saying, and when to ignore it.
Again, Borys doesn't have the power to change anyone into a sorcerer-king, and furthermore, never possessed the power. That is the reason Tithian turned against Borys. This is not a minor detail, not contradictory to anything else in the PP, it is major part of the plot that sets the direction for the last two books in the PP series! Given that the metaplot of the PP is canon, there is no way you can ignore this, no matter how much you wish it would go away.
Succinct and totally on the ball.
I would be curious about you thoughts on other difficult DS issues. If it interests you, consider perhaps:
What are the powers of Sacha and Wyan? Can they cast "dragon magic," as seems to be the case in The Crimson Legion?
Do the SKs need to rememorize spells like regular wizards, or do they simply get their spells recharged like Sadira?
In the context of the Prism Pentad, 2nd edition rules and DS materials, can/do lower than 10th level defiler spells drain life from animals? (e.g., a 6th level spell cast by a 21st level or above dragon causes 6d6 points of damage to every animal within the radius of the spell, save for half, yes or no?)
My thanks if you can lend your thoughts to one or more of these subjects.
These are obviously a device for allowing the SKs to grants spells to their templars.
First of all, these vortices would, depending upon your take of DS cosmology, go through both or either the Ethereal Plane and/or through the Gray. Such storms would, in my thinking, not be invisible or anything, even in death. The SKs, especially if they ever go into these substratum planes (and almost certainly they do from time to time), would see these living or dead vortices. They would be aware of them. It is difficult to imagine that they would not. I mean, if I were a SK player, and my DM suddenly told in some weird-off way that perhaps I can grant spells to my followers now, I think I would investigate and find out just how this happened. It is difficult to imagine that the SKs would not do this, thinking perhaps they can gain further advantages by researching the peculiar beings which just increased their powers most appreciably.
We constantly bicker about champion/dragon differences. It would seem to me that Dragon Kings is correct, and that the vortices attached to the SKs with the casting of the first dragon metamorphosis spells, which to me means the very beginning when Rajaat first empowered his champions at the Pristine Tower. This seems to make the most sense.
As to the templary employed in the Cleansing Wars, we have little to no reliable information. It is possible that the vortices were only attracted to the immense power of the champions a few years after their creation, or perhaps a few days or a few turns in game. We do not know. Even when they attached themselves to the champions, it is a distinct possibility the exact nature of the symbiotic relationship was not understood by the champions for some time. No reliable information discusses in depth the nature of the champions' armies. We assume there was something akin to an officer corps, which may have been the templary in gestation. It is difficult to say.
It seems likely the vortices were attracted to the immense energy focusing of the Steeple of Crystals, for the Lens and the geods there attracted enormous gobs of raw energy from the Athasian sun, enough indeed to turn its color. This seems logical, for hopefully self-evident reasons. If this is the case, we can presume the association of the vortices was at this very early time... indeed perhaps just minutes or hours after the transformation Rajaat enacted upon his star pupils.
Yes, I am aware of what 2nd box says. You know what I like about 2nd box? The maps! (Actually, I enjoy it a lot, but screw that timeline, many of us here could have written a better one).
"Essentially, the seven sorcerer-kings are the first
defilers who matched their great magical skills with
ultimate psionic power. When they attained this
level of magic is unclear—though rumors about
their age range into the thousands of years, they are
probably much older than that. On attaining the
first stage toward dragon form, the seven delved
deeper into research to understand what they had
begun.
Each had mysteriously become the focus of unlimited
elemental magic. Though they couldn’t tap this
power themselves, the sorcerer-kings could impart
that power to their followers, the templars. The end
result was clear, but why this transference of power
became possible remains a mystery, even to the
sorcerer- kings.
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing
spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted
the attention of a very powerful and rare creature—
a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored
in all the elemental planes and the prime material
plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of
magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their
deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled
directly to them by their living vortex, a creature
they don’t even realize exists.
With the passage of centuries, the living vortices
have become extinct. Therefore, no future dragons
will gain the ability to transfer elemental magic to
templars. The original sorcerer-kings will take that
privilege with them to their graves."
Also, the passage states that the Living Vortexes are anchored in the Elemental Planes and the Prine. Since it makes no mention of the well-defined Athasian Transient planes (The Black, the Grey) or the Ethereal, I think it is safe to assume that the vortex has a unique way of bridging these planes, or else uses a transient dimension unrecognized and unknown by the Athasians, thus allowing them to go undetected by everyone except Dregoth, and maybe Rajaat.
The Sorcerer-Kings
The sorcerer-kings who were Rajaat’s Champions are all dragons in the midst of their transformations. Some have chosen to stop pursuing the metamorphosis at particular stages. Although the sorcerer-kings are able to endow their templars with clerical spells, this is a function of their original linking with the Dark Lens. At that time a vortex opened to the elemental planes, granting them the ability to access elemental clerical spells, but not to use them themselves. That linkage is not available to anyone else attempting to become a sorcerer-king or dragon. All the other powers can be gained, but none but the Champions of Rajaat have the power to grant clerical spells to their minions.
Or else, this same passage could confirm what the timeline says, about Borys transforming them and linking them to the Lens and each other. If that statement is Canon, then there were no Templars getting spells from the SKs during the cleansing wars. However, the first interpretation I presented sets up a nice vision of the genocidal Champions, calling for holy way and granting the same powers as the Elementals gave their worshippers. Could explain why their PR campaign was so successful.
In either interpretation, I still support the distinction between immortal, orb-using Champions and Dragons.
I also appreciate your willingness to discuss and bring up on your own contrary sources.
As to the post 2nd box materials, I imagine you of course know my thoughts on their usefulness. Defilers and Preservers of Athas, while a fascinating work, takes its queue from the 2nd box, and the contradiction you have discovered from D&PoA, to me only further illuminates the poor researching abilities and sloppiness of the 2nd box writers. They themselves seem to have been unclear, and honestly, probably largely uncaring as to the exact details of the SKs transformations and ancient pasts.
As to your passages from DK, I am a little tired to go into in detail, but I might say that you are looking for what you want to find. This is not to say that you are necessarily incorrect in your analysis, but it would seem to me more likely that at the point DK was written, its author, Mr. Brown (not Denning), was not really considering the details of the Cleansing War. Even if he was, to my knowledge we are uncertain as to exactly time the champions were given the supreme generalships of their various commands, indeed centuries might have passed before they became involved in the Cleansing Wars proper. Also, the Cleansing Wars lasted for so long that the research that was done may have carried on while the wars waged on. We do not know. The research that the champions did need not have been as in depth as you seem to imply, as Brown's wording does not stress this; one can research and do many other things at the same time. More to point however, Brown was writing fairly simply, and it seems unlikely to me that he was taking into account the full context of the Cleansing Wars and everything else that was going on when the champions were empowered. Brown is writing in broad generalities, and we should not read too much into everything he says.
I do agree with the Vortex that the living vortices may well be "invisible", or that they cross from the elemental planes via more peculiar dimensions than the Gray or the Ethereal. I have often contemplated such, and indeed, it would make sense, as DK does indeed emphasize that even the SKs did not know about the vortices. One might chalk such a statement up however to Brown's sometimes uncareful thinking on certain subjects... he just might not have contemplated that the SKs would have bothered to take a peak through the Ethereal and see a vortex (the Gray seems to have not yet existed in the DS game world... even though Denning is quick to mention it... further demonstrating that the two were not fully communicating with each other, and illuminating why I am suspicious of reading too much of the Cleansing Wars as being in Brown's mind when he wrote DK). Then again, in 1st edition AD&D, we find rather lengthy discussions about lateral lines and vortexes that rip across the multi-verse, linking odd planes together outside the context of Ethereal or Astral travel. Given the time given to planar cosmology in DK, it is a distinct possibility that Brown was familiar with such things from 1st edition and conceived of the living vortices in a similar fashion.
You have some points Terminus Vortexa. As one would hope from your handle name, you are wise in the ways of vortices it would seem to me. I do not agree that the items you have discussed that I have mentioned thus far in this post conclude that there are major differences between dragon and champion.
Let me see, you are posting a lot. Maybe you are posting much more as I write Vortex.
ON BORYS OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORMER CHAMPIONS TRANSFORMING TITHIAN I INTO A 21ST LEVEL DRAGON
Redking seems to me to treat the issue with finality, that indeed even Borys, with the Dark Lens, could not transform Tithian into a dragon. The evidence from the PP is exceedingly strong with regards to this matter, and is essentially undeniable. I would suggest reading redking's admirable observations and quotations as offered above.
As to why this is the case? First of all, I don't know. We are not given proper evidence to make an unchallengeable conclusion. Nonetheless, we might observe the fact that the difference between Tithian and the champions, Vortexa, is of course the fact that Tithian is not already a 21st level dragon. When the other champions gathered round and all made Borys into a 30th level dragon, they did so transforming a 21st level dragon into a higher level one (I note that there is passage somewhere in the PP, and I do not have all my books here to find it [help me out redking?], that seems to say that the others forced Rajaat to make Borys into the Dragon, or at least made his show them how; it is, as I recall however, a confused passage, which may be attributable to Denning's own confusion and poor notes on the matter, etc.).
Therefore, Vortexa, it seems Denning's reasoning was that even the champions could not transform a non-dragon into one. I agree with you that the likes of Nibenay and King Tec, who have cast the regular metamorphosis spell, would have been able to at least provide notes to Tithian so as to devise his own metamorphosis spell. Surely so. But to raise Tithian up, without the proper experience points, and all that, seems to have been beyond any of the Champions. Even Rajaat seems to have only been capable of such feats by commanding the awesome lens array at the Chapel of Steeples, with of course the Lens in its central position there. Rajaat seems to have learned how to do such things either from the halfling masters, and/or modified what he learned from them (almost certainly the latter). Such knowledge was never imparted from Rajaat to his champions, as this was arguably part of Rajaat's power over them, the secret of their transformation which he would never tell. The halflings, soon to become shadow giants, seem also to have been at least familiar with the process, as they are able to transform Sadira into the sun wizardess, which seemingly is the same process that transformed the champions, sans the Dark Lens.
In other words Vortexa, this secret knowledge was not privy to the future SKs, or even to Borys. None of them knew how to work the Steeple of Crystals, or they would have likely abused its powers further (if they were not terrified of the place, which is a definite possibility). Such knowledge seems a secret of Rajaat and his party, and most certainly none of the shadow giants would help teach the Traitors how to use the Steeples. It is possible it is also a "power" thing, with Rajaat's awesome powers somehow being essential for empowering individuals such as his champions, but this seems a little tenuous, as the shadow giants empower Sadira just fine, and they are no where near the power level of their master Rajaat. Indeed, it seems a secret, how to use the Lens, and one might even imagine the secret have to do with "life shaping", or rather "life bending", skills which were known to the halflings of the primordial world, but definitely not known to the former champions.
They seem unable to command the powers of the "Mud Palace." Tithian is right to despair that they are unable to transform his directly from his current level (at the time of the OO, probably 20th level psionicist/12th level dual-classed defiler, in 2nd edition terms) into a 21st level dragon. They certainly would have been able to help him learn to do it himself, but they probably could not do it for him.
The dragon magic metamorphosis rituals seem to be rather individualized to me. I do not have the Pentad with me to consult, but at the least, I'll give the cop out that the Traitors who transformed Borys from 21st to 30th level, using at least the Dark Lens... that all that was a rather singular event.
Man I'm tired...
Either way, Denning seemed set on saying no to it, which probably has less to do with game mechanics and more to do with plot. Yet, it's irritable that Denning does this deal. Kalak tried to pole vault himself up quite a bit. Did he have the experience points for a 30th level dragon? Could he just cheat this, in game terms (which I know Denning rarely cared about)? Did Borys have enough XPs do pole vault to 30th? Honestly, despite all the wars they fought, I doubt they had so many XPs. To me, that's always been a possibility as to why the SKs didn't continue to advance in levels during their long reigns, namely that they did not have the XPs to do so, for in taking the initial boost from Rajaat, they had to earn all the XPs from their relatively low starting levels to reach all the way to levels they already possessed, 21st, which might take an awfully long time.
Unfortunately, Vortexa, really it just comes down to Denning just says so, and he doesn't care much about game mechanics. The difference in Denning terms seems to be that Tithian is a mortal man and not already a 21st level dragon, and none of them could have initiated the magical transformation for Tithian... such was privy only to Rajaat and his halfling minions.
A fine duel.
Concerning the XP quandary, Dragons can store life force in obsidian spheres to use as XP when casting epic spells. Maybe Tithian could get help from someone like Farcluun, who accomplished his transformation completely independently, and is a 2nd stage Dragon.
From Black Flames -
While a man, Farcluun gained a reputation for cruelty rivaled by few
others. To fuel his transformation he rounded up an entire tribe of
halflings and had them burned alive. Though some wouldn't fault him
(halflings are savage cannibals, after all), the act was still undeniably
cruel. This sadistic streak did not lessen as Farcluun gained power, but
rather increased. Those who cross him should spend the rest of their lives
looking over their shoulders for reprisals.
I use this to reinforce the standpoint that Tithian was just an over-reaching jackass, manipulated and lied to by everyone except Agis. If Farcluun could pull it off, King Tithian of Tyr with the Dark Lens and countless villages available to raid for sacrifices could do it too, with the right knowledge. He wasn't scholarly enough to figure things out from Kalak's stuff,apparently. Even though he had been in charge of building the ziggurat,iirc. Nobody except Rajaat was willing to give him what he wanted, and anyone willing to discuss the topic with him said it couldn't be done (except Borys, who could definitely teach him the spells. Then all Tithian has to do is round up a horde of sacrifices(Both Farcluun and Tec seemed to use sacrificial rites as opposed to direct life-leeching...) cast DefMeta1, and BAM, he's a dragon. have no idea what Denning's take on all that would be, but it's the line of reasoning i'm most comfortable with.
Those last levels, in 2nd edition terms, between 12th and 20th, take an awfully long time anyway. I'd totally go for the level up from Rajaat myself.
God it'd be awesome to play Tithian. He's totally cool: an utterly selfish individual.
good for now
ON BORYS OR ANY OF THE OTHER FORMER CHAMPIONS TRANSFORMING TITHIAN I INTO A 21ST LEVEL DRAGON
Redking seems to me to treat the issue with finality, that indeed even Borys, with the Dark Lens, could not transform Tithian into a dragon. The evidence from the PP is exceedingly strong with regards to this matter, and is essentially undeniable. I would suggest reading redking's admirable observations and quotations as offered above.
As to why this is the case? First of all, I don't know. We are not given proper evidence to make an unchallengeable conclusion. Nonetheless, we might observe the fact that the difference between Tithian and the champions, Vortexa, is of course the fact that Tithian is not already a 21st level dragon. When the other champions gathered round and all made Borys into a 30th level dragon, they did so transforming a 21st level dragon into a higher level one (I note that there is passage somewhere in the PP, and I do not have all my books here to find it [help me out redking?], that seems to say that the others forced Rajaat to make Borys into the Dragon, or at least made his show them how; it is, as I recall however, a confused passage, which may be attributable to Denning's own confusion and poor notes on the matter, etc.).
Therefore, Vortexa, it seems Denning's reasoning was that even the champions could not transform a non-dragon into one. I agree with you that the likes of Nibenay and King Tec, who have cast the regular metamorphosis spell, would have been able to at least provide notes to Tithian so as to devise his own metamorphosis spell. Surely so. But to raise Tithian up, without the proper experience points, and all that, seems to have been beyond any of the Champions. Even Rajaat seems to have only been capable of such feats by commanding the awesome lens array at the Chapel of Steeples, with of course the Lens in its central position there. Rajaat seems to have learned how to do such things either from the halfling masters, and/or modified what he learned from them (almost certainly the latter). Such knowledge was never imparted from Rajaat to his champions, as this was arguably part of Rajaat's power over them, the secret of their transformation which he would never tell. The halflings, soon to become shadow giants, seem also to have been at least familiar with the process, as they are able to transform Sadira into the sun wizardess, which seemingly is the same process that transformed the champions, sans the Dark Lens.
In other words Vortexa, this secret knowledge was not privy to the future SKs, or even to Borys. None of them knew how to work the Steeple of Crystals, or they would have likely abused its powers further (if they were not terrified of the place, which is a definite possibility). Such knowledge seems a secret of Rajaat and his party, and most certainly none of the shadow giants would help teach the Traitors how to use the Steeples. It is possible it is also a "power" thing, with Rajaat's awesome powers somehow being essential for empowering individuals such as his champions, but this seems a little tenuous, as the shadow giants empower Sadira just fine, and they are no where near the power level of their master Rajaat. Indeed, it seems a secret, how to use the Lens, and one might even imagine the secret have to do with "life shaping", or rather "life bending", skills which were known to the halflings of the primordial world, but definitely not known to the former champions.
They seem unable to command the powers of the "Mud Palace." Tithian is right to despair that they are unable to transform his directly from his current level (at the time of the OO, probably 20th level psionicist/12th level dual-classed defiler, in 2nd edition terms) into a 21st level dragon. They certainly would have been able to help him learn to do it himself, but they probably could not do it for him.
The dragon magic metamorphosis rituals seem to be rather individualized to me. I do not have the Pentad with me to consult, but at the least, I'll give the cop out that the Traitors who transformed Borys from 21st to 30th level, using at least the Dark Lens... that all that was a rather singular event.
Man I'm tired...
Either way, Denning seemed set on saying no to it, which probably has less to do with game mechanics and more to do with plot. Yet, it's irritable that Denning does this deal. Kalak tried to pole vault himself up quite a bit. Did he have the experience points for a 30th level dragon? Could he just cheat this, in game terms (which I know Denning rarely cared about)? Did Borys have enough XPs do pole vault to 30th? Honestly, despite all the wars they fought, I doubt they had so many XPs. To me, that's always been a possibility as to why the SKs didn't continue to advance in levels during their long reigns, namely that they did not have the XPs to do so, for in taking the initial boost from Rajaat, they had to earn all the XPs from their relatively low starting levels to reach all the way to levels they already possessed, 21st, which might take an awfully long time.
Unfortunately, Vortexa, really it just comes down to Denning just says so, and he doesn't care much about game mechanics. The difference in Denning terms seems to be that Tithian is a mortal man and not already a 21st level dragon, and none of them could have initiated the magical transformation for Tithian... such was privy only to Rajaat and his halfling minions.
A fine duel.
You have hit the nail on the head. The reason that the champions cannot make other champions even with the Dark Lens is not the result of lacking the necessary psionic and magical power needed (even though the champions have far less facility in the way and sorcery than Rajaat), but from the fact that Rajaat also possessed the life-shaping abilities of the Halfling Nature Masters.
Rajaat is a master of blending one method with another. After creating sorcery, he blended it with the way, creating potent new abilities, the psionic enchantments, and possibly others. In the same way, he has managed to blend sorcery, the way, and life-shaping. In this sense his life-shaping abilities far exceed those of even the greatest of the ancient nature masters and nature benders. He has within himself the ability to transform the whole planet. He can also radically alter living creatures.
I would say this is the reason why Borys and the other champions cannot create other champions/dragons. It is possible they might learn, but even the surviving Halflings of the Jagged Cliffs have no idea how their lifeshaping works, and thus cannot help the Sorcerer kings learn how to use it as Rajaat does. Perhaps the shadow people know of life-shaping and used it to transform Sadira. Or perhaps they were simply following instructions on how to do it from Rajaat. In any case, the transformation was not as powerful as that effected by Rajaat on the champions.
An XP deficit could explain why the sorcerer kings did not advance in level in so many thousands of years (depending on which timeline you rely on for dates!). Or it could be that although Rajaat started the metamorphosis, he did not advance the levels of the champions all the way to being able to 20th level in each class (2nd ed rules).
My ideas: Let us say that Rajaat has awesome powers, but even he has his limitations. For example, he cannot make a regular person into a psionic and sorcery wielding dragon, unless they possess at least one level of a psionic (manifesting) class and wizard class, each. Then let us assume that for the transformation of the average champion, Rajaat can distribute 10 levels (essentially give 10 levels worth of free XP via his combination of sorcery, psionics, and life-shaping, together with the enhancing and focusing abilities of the Dark Lens and the Steeple of Crystals) to his prospective champion (he might even be capable of greater feats, and the expense of taxing him greatly). Rajaat might also put a champion into a prestige class like cerebremancer, if the character meets the requirements of the class. Also let us assume that Rajaat can almost effortlessly advance a champions metamorphosis stage to any stage he desires. However, it seems Rajaat only advanced his champions to the first stage for whatever his reasons.
For example: Rajaat could take a wiz 1, psion 1 and take him to the Steeple of Crystals to make him a champion. This individual meets the basic minimum requirements of transformation by Rajaat. Rajaat enacts the transformation, and decides to distribute levels in both classes evenly. Rajaat has 10 levels to distribute. Thus the individual then becomes wiz 6, psion 6. They have also started the first stage of metamophosis, so the full class stats are wizard 6/psion 6/athasian dragon 1.
Unfortunately, this character is not tough enough to carry out the cleansing wars on Rajaat's behalf, so he did not actually make a champion like this. What he did do was seek out his best students that were also masters of the way, and made them into his champions.
Let us have a hypothetical example of say Sacha. He is a student of Rajaat's, and happens to agree with Rajaat that the rebirth races must be destroyed. Proficient with the way before learning sorcery, he is psion 6/wizard 8. Rajaat takes him to the Steeple of Crystals and transforms him. He decides on giving Sacha the cerebremancer class, which he qualifies for. Rajaat chose the distribution of levels and Sacha is now psion 6/wizard 8/cerebremancer 10/athasian dragon 1. Sacha is satisfied that Rajaat kept his promise of great power, with more to come.
This is just some conjecture about what Rajaat was doing when he was transforming a prospective champion. Most of the champions probably did not have the ability to cast epic spells or use epic psionic powers until the end of the war against their targeted rebirth race (gaining levels while exterminating the rebirth races). Dregoth, for example, had a powerful enemy in Taraskir the Lion, a giant and master of the way. At that time, Dregoth was probably not casting 9th level spells or manifesting 9th level psionic powers (or perhaps was able to do so in one class, and not the other). In any event, the champions grew more powerful after imprisoning Rajaat. This probably meant that they took some levels in classes other than the athasian dragon class, being afraid of raging like Borys did.
I would be curious about you thoughts on other difficult DS issues. If it interests you, consider perhaps:
What are the powers of Sacha and Wyan? Can they cast "dragon magic," as seems to be the case in The Crimson Legion?
Well, it depends on what whether "dragon magic" is a psionic enchantment or not. Dragon Kings says psionic enchantments are 10th level spells. If there are no lower level psionic enchantments, then I would say no, they cannot do it, but if there are lower level psionic enchantments, then yes, they could. I would say the solution is that there are lower level psionic enchantments. This ability, from the mind mage prestige class from Dragon Magazine, can explain lower level "dragon magic".
Focus of Discipline (Ex): By 7th level, the mind mage can freely pull from both his psionic and his magical reserves to fuel either sort of ability. He may spend power points to cast spells with less magical energy or translate arcane power into psionic power points.
When casting a spell, the mind mage may lower its effective spell level (and thus the spell slot it occupies) by spending 8 power points per level of reduction (minimum level 1st). Similarly, he may reduce the power point cost of a psionic power by 2 per spell level so expended. Unlike the compensation ability (see above), focus of discipline decreases the base level of the spell or the base cost of the power rather than negating additional spell level or power point costs from metamagic or metapsionic feats.
A spell prepared in a lower-level slot or a power manifested for less than its normal power point costs counts as a correspondingly lower-level effect for the purposes of dispelling, saving throw DC, and identification for counter spelling. Use the new, lowered slot to determine the appropriate values.
For example, suppose Quellthik (wizard 5/Psion 5/mind mage 8) decides that cone of cold will be a useful spell for his upcoming battle. But his combined levels of wizard and mind mage grant him access to only a single 5th-level spell, and he will undoubtedly need more than one cone of cold. He prepares the first as his sole 5th-level spell. Then, using the focus of discipline ability, he spends 8 power points and prepares a second cone of cold as a 4th-level spell. The second cone of cold deals just as much damage as the 5th-level spell, but since it's a 4th-level spell, the Reflex DC is 14 + Quellthik's Intelligence modifier (instead of 15 + his Intelligence modifier). The spell is also correspondingly easier to identify with a Spellcraft check.
Quellthik cannot prepare the cone of cold as a 3rd-level spell because the cost of doing so (a total of 16 power points) would exceed his allowed power point limit (manifester level -1), even if he used focus of discipline to raise his manifester level. A mind mage capable of spending 16 power points to achieve this effect, however, could cast cone of cold as a 3rd-level spell, dealing the same amount of damage as the 5th-level version, but with a save DC of 13 + spell level.
Yes, it is just a fix, but at least it helps make the book consistent with Dragon Kings. Just use this psionically assisted casting as "dragon magic".
Do the SKs need to rememorize spells like regular wizards, or do they simply get their spells recharged like Sadira?
Not sure. Off the top of my head, I would say they need to prepare the spells.
In the context of the Prism Pentad, 2nd edition rules and DS materials, can/do lower than 10th level defiler spells drain life from animals? (e.g., a 6th level spell cast by a 21st level or above dragon causes 6d6 points of damage to every animal within the radius of the spell, save for half, yes or no?)
Not sure about the HP but the PP says that they can draw life from animals to power any spell. The gaming material contradicts it and says it is for 10th level spells. If I were playing in Dark Sun, I would say that animals are drained but I would lower the damage to 1d4 total, except in the case of 10th level spells
In this sense his life-shaping abilities far exceed those of even the greatest of the ancient nature masters and nature benders. He has within himself the ability to transform the whole planet. He can also radically alter living creatures.
I would say this is the reason why Borys and the other champions cannot create other champions/dragons. It is possible they might learn, but even the surviving Halflings of the Jagged Cliffs have no idea how their lifeshaping works, and thus cannot help the Sorcerer kings learn how to use it as Rajaat does. Perhaps the shadow people know of life-shaping and used it to transform Sadira. Or perhaps they were simply following instructions on how to do it from Rajaat. In any case, the transformation was not as powerful as that effected by Rajaat on the champions.
The spell for the first 3 levels of the transformation is exactly the same. Again, please remember this - ANY SK who has gone to 22nd level or higher knows EXACTLY how to make someone else into a 1st stage Dragon. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME SPELL. One need only change the target to One living creature or something, rather than personal. Sacrifices can be used in place of XP, and if an SK transforming someone else into a dragon chose to, they could use obsidian orbs full of life force to further mitigate the costs, as well as have Templars contribute spell slots. there is NO rebuttal to the fact that Tec, Nibenay, Borys, and Oronis, and Farcluun could EACH have gave Tithian his desire to become a Dragon, and a simple Origin of Species epic spell or a spell designed to attract a dead SKs living vortex would give spellgranting abilities.The existing Dragons may not have realized the ways to get living vortexes, as only Dregoth seemed to know they even existed. But ANY of the 4 aforementioned dragons could have transformed him, it just would have been strenuous and expensive.
BTW, I include a full ten levels of Mind Mage in every SK i write stats for, precisely to use the abilities as a kind of proto-dragon magic. I'm thinking of retooling it into a Champion of Rajaat Prestige Class to go along with the template. It fits with my own personal interpretation of the Champion\Dragon\Sorceror-King concept. It also agrees with what the books say about Rajaat teaching his best students of Defiling and the Way to combine both to greater effect, without making them disgustingly high-level too early on, and without having begun the Dragon Transformation yet.
The spell for the first 3 levels of the transformation is exactly the same. Again, please remember this - ANY SK who has gone to 22nd level or higher knows EXACTLY how to make someone else into a 1st stage Dragon. IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME SPELL. One need only change the target to One living creature or something, rather than personal. Sacrifices can be used in place of XP, and if an SK transforming someone else into a dragon chose to, they could use obsidian orbs full of life force to further mitigate the costs, as well as have Templars contribute spell slots. there is NO rebuttal to the fact that Tec, Nibenay, Borys, and Oronis, and Farcluun could EACH have gave Tithian his desire to become a Dragon, and a simple Origin of Species epic spell or a spell designed to attract a dead SKs living vortex would give spellgranting abilities.The existing Dragons may not have realized the ways to get living vortexes, as only Dregoth seemed to know they even existed. But ANY of the 4 aforementioned dragons could have transformed him, it just would have been strenuous and expensive.
So the rules on athas.org would have us believe. But remember they were based on the mistaken idea that Borys and champions have the ability to do it, and I spent a lot of time explaining why they do not. Perhaps they could cast the spell on someone that does not have the levels to cast it themselves, but it doesn't mean the spell would work, and it doesn't mean that the subject would survive, either.
BTW, I include a full ten levels of Mind Mage in every SK i write stats for, precisely to use the abilities as a kind of proto-dragon magic. I'm thinking of retooling it into a Champion of Rajaat Prestige Class to go along with the template. It fits with my own personal interpretation of the Champion\Dragon\Sorceror-King concept. It also agrees with what the books say about Rajaat teaching his best students of Defiling and the Way to combine both to greater effect, without making them disgustingly high-level too early on, and without having begun the Dragon Transformation yet.
Yes, the mind mage concept is a good one for athas. Just take out the references to the illithids.
No one's saying that Rajaat can't turn someone into a sorcerer king, but there's no evidence that he ever actually did. Everything quoted above very clearly shows that Borys began their transformations. It's also stated pretty clearly in the game material that no one has any idea the elemental vortices ever existed, so as far as anyone knows Borys should still be able to do what he already did, i.e. create a spell granting sorcerer king. The only way Sacha and Wyan could know that Borys isn't capable of doing it again is if Rajaat knows about the vortices and told them, but then we're moving into even more speculation than has already gone on. Obviously they're telling Tithian what he needs to hear in order to get him to bring the Dark Lens to Ur Draxa.
Agree completely with Cyrian on this
.I'm going to step out of this now, as I feel that I have made my contribution on the original topic and the discussion is moving into other areas (not to mention painfully long posts, lol...)
I heartily agree with phaaf_glien's points earlier on about different sources having differing levels of value (or even canon). As a DS gamer, the game-line is my primary source. The Prism Pentad is not canon - neither its author nor the designers of the setting intended it to be. Although novels and setting started from the same point (the 1st box), they rapdily diverged thereafter. In essence, the Prism Pentad describes a different Athas to the game material. The game material went one way and the novels another. They do not match up and nor should we expect them to. In fact, the designers of the setting did exactly as Denning intended: they used the PP as inspiration for their design work on the setting, and went from there.
As far as the original topic goes, the game material is clear. So is the novel material. They just don't agree with one another. And nor should we expect them to.
I find the novels the best - bar none - source for details on Athasian life, society, culture, beliefs etc etc. All those things that don't really belong in a gamebook. It would be interesting, actually, to see a DS setting derived wholly from the novels, ignoring the game material completely. (My own games use neither novels nor game material as backstory, by comparison.)
Anyway, I am off to sun myself on a rock now. Rock on.
So the rules on athas.org would have us believe.
.
Ok, then lets go Dragon Kings. IT'S THE SAME SPELL EVERY LEVEL. Meaning that ALL of the SKs know exactly how to become full dragon, it's just a matter of time and resources and decisions. Again, FARCLUUN pulled off the transformation INDEPENDENTLY. Tithian could have too, or else ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS CHANGE THE TARGET OF THE SPELL to cast it on someone else. Straight up, if you don't like the idea, you don't have to. But all the EVIDENCE points to more than half of the SKs being able to help Tithian transform. And though they chose not to, I can't imagine the ruler of Tyr having less resources or capability than an independent agent like Farcluun. Not tpo mention that Kalak's ziggurat is still available to use .
Ok, then lets go Dragon Kings. IT'S THE SAME SPELL EVERY LEVEL. Meaning that ALL of the SKs know exactly how to become full dragon, it's just a matter of time and resources and decisions. Again, FARCLUUN pulled off the transformation INDEPENDENTLY. Tithian could have too, or else ALL ONE HAS TO DO IS CHANGE THE TARGET OF THE SPELL to cast it on someone else. Straight up, if you don't like the idea, you don't have to. But all the EVIDENCE points to more than half of the SKs being able to help Tithian transform. And though they chose not to, I can't imagine the ruler of Tyr having less resources or capability than an independent agent like Farcluun. Not tpo mention that Kalak's ziggurat is still available to use .
Well... yes and no. The spells as they stand at the moment have the target as personal, but even if you assume that having the target as another, they would still have to meet the entry requirements for the class. From Legends of Athas.
Entry Requirements
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 24 ranks.
Feats: Body Fuel, Psionic Body, any 2 metamagic or metapsionic feats.
Spells: Able to cast 9th-level arcane spells.
Psionics: Able to manifest 6th-level powers.
Special: Must be a defiler, and have cast the defiler metamorphosis I spell.
These are not only the requirements of the caster of the spell, but also the recipient. It is the same in Dragon Kings.