I imagined something like. 2nd Ed Level +5 = X Level Solo Controller
Borys would be an 35 Level Solo Controller. Maybe 30 would be enough.
Hamanu 27 Solo Controller etc.
Just curious, don't flame me *stickshisheadinthesand*
Applaud, everyone! Many many more to come in the future, we hope. Not forgetting Rajaat (of course!) or the dragon epic destiny.
/ranty sarcasm...but don't read much into it, you're here long enough, all posts end up being about the same subjects to old geezers
To answer your question: No, not yet. But multiple someones are bound to come up with them eventually, just wait!
Haha! I believe this may very well be our first 4e SK-centric post!
Applaud, everyone! Many many more to come in the future, we hope. Not forgetting Rajaat (of course!) or the dragon epic destiny.
/ranty sarcasm...but don't read much into it, you're here long enough, all posts end up being about the same subjects to old geezers
To answer your question: No, not yet. But multiple someones are bound to come up with them eventually, just wait!
*bow*
Someone had to do the first step. I know how stiff you all are and I also know that your fingers are aching. You all want to know this. I SACRIFIED myself! :p
Maybe i will try the Monster Builder :D
Other than Bors and rajaat i dont think any of the SKs should be lvl 30 or higher although they should all be epic.But thats just my opion.
I think you are right.
The +5 Solo suggestion might be to much. I just though about the ultimate bad-boys from the other products, Vecna (35), Demogorgon (34), Graz'zt (32), Orcus (33), Tiamat (35), Dragotha (31).
I don't know how they will affect Athas but Borys being 32 or 30 will surely do.
The +5 Solo suggestion might be to much. I just though about the ultimate bad-boys from the other products, Vecna (35), Demogorgon (34), Graz'zt (32), Orcus (33), Tiamat (35), Dragotha (31).
I see the dragons as the bad boys of Athas, much as the ones listed are of their genres. I would rather see them as creatures in the vein of Orcus et al and be the endgame of a series of adventures.
I see the dragons as the bad boys of Athas, much as the ones listed are of their genres. I would rather see them as creatures in the vein of Orcus et al and be the endgame of a series of adventures.
While I like this idea, I tend to see them as one possible endgame. There's other possible ones.
If that is what happens, I'd rather see special rules for the sorcerer-kings to buff them above the standard solo/boss types. Extra actions per round, for example. Something to reflect the WTF high power they've got.
{{{example: a 18 or 19 solo, is a good 'boss' for a fight that never hits epic, BUT also works with say 2 or 3 level 17 or 18 normal/elite templars as a fight for a level 21 group}}}
I do feel we need 'bigger fish' though, I mean if the only major players 21-30 are the SK's then too many epic games will be just slaughtering them one after another...
Boris should be a 32 solo.... big mean, and just shy of on par with tiamat herself...
I do think they all need to be epic in scope, I wonder if we could let a 'weaker' paragon solo by...hm.... then we could have him and his templar's togatehr be a lowe epic threart...
{{{example: a 18 or 19 solo, is a good 'boss' for a fight that never hits epic, BUT also works with say 2 or 3 level 17 or 18 normal/elite templars as a fight for a level 21 group}}}
I do feel we need 'bigger fish' though, I mean if the only major players 21-30 are the SK's then too many epic games will be just slaughtering them one after another...
Boris should be a 32 solo.... big mean, and just shy of on par with tiamat herself...
I like the Idea. Instead of 18 Solo one could make them 21 Elite. Good for fast groups that won't play all to long together. At least they might achieve something ;).
But this leads just to another, gamer slaughtering them szenario, just earlier.
Till 21-30 you have a lot possible enemies;
Undead in all their forms, the Trading Houses, high Level Templars, mighty Raiders, lesser Drakes, high level evil Paraelemental Clerics etc.
From 21-30 You have, Drakes, The Order, Kaishargha and other more powerful Undead, rogue Dragons. The Athasian Tarrasque :D, the Zik-Chil and their Thor-Kreen Empire, the Mind Lords etc.
Athas biggest threat is Rajaat > Hamanu (when he becomes an 30th Level Dragon) > Borys > Dregoth > Rest of the SK bunch. There isn't more, really, so it's ok for them to be the real ENDGAME.
However, the Elemental Planes of Athas, hopefully intact, have their share of Elemental Lords. The most powerful of them should be on par with Borys.
BTW I haven't played 4e yet. How fast is it. How long does an average Group, 4-5 Hours a week, need to reach Level 30?
BTW I haven't played 4e yet. How fast is it. How long does an average Group, 4-5 Hours a week, need to reach Level 30?
Acording to the DMG, it takes around 8-10 encounters to level, so lets say 3 encounters per session, and 9 encounters per level, so it would be around 3 weeks per level, so 90 weeks, divided by 52 weeks in a year, which equates to almost 2 years. Since you won't game every week, and sometimes you will only get in 2 encounters per session, it will take something over 2 years to get to 30th level.
I do think they all need to be epic in scope, I wonder if we could let a 'weaker' paragon solo by...hm.... then we could have him and his templar's togatehr be a lowe epic threart...
{{{example: a 18 or 19 solo, is a good 'boss' for a fight that never hits epic, BUT also works with say 2 or 3 level 17 or 18 normal/elite templars as a fight for a level 21 group}}}
I do feel we need 'bigger fish' though, I mean if the only major players 21-30 are the SK's then too many epic games will be just slaughtering them one after another...
Boris should be a 32 solo.... big mean, and just shy of on par with tiamat herself...
I like the Idea. Instead of 18 Solo one could make them 21 Elite. Good for fast groups that won't play all to long together. At least they might achieve something ;). But this leads just to another, gamer slaughtering them szenario, just earlier. Till 21-30 you have a lot possible enemies; Undead in all their forms, the Trading Houses, high Level Templars, mighty Raiders, lesser Drakes, high level evil Paraelemental Clerics etc. From 21-30 You have, Drakes, The Order, Kaishargha and other more powerful Undead, rogue Dragons. The Athasian Tarrasque :D, the Zik-Chil and their Thor-Kreen Empire, the Mind Lords etc. Athas biggest threat is Rajaat > Hamanu (when he becomes an 30th Level Dragon) > Borys > Dregoth > Rest of the SK bunch. There isn't more, really, so it's ok for them to be the real ENDGAME. However, the Elemental Planes of Athas, hopefully intact, have their share of Elemental Lords. The most powerful of them should be on par with Borys. BTW I haven't played 4e yet. How fast is it. How long does an average Group, 4-5 Hours a week, need to reach Level 30?
Please say thats a joke....I really hope thats a joke.....I don't want to even think of something like the tarrasque geting a dark sun upgrade.....
Other than Boris and Rajaat i dont think any of the SKs should be lvl 30 or higher although they should all be epic.But thats just my opion.
For one thing, Rajaat was never a SK and even now he's more elemental-like then Pyreen. Maybe somesort of pure /raw magic channeler with an elemental template of sort.
As for Borys, I see him more then an SK: 30th level SK with full at least 2 to 3 lev. dragon template/feature - (with no natural flight)
I also think that each SK should keep their respected level ratio compared to each other's:like dragoth being the highest ( 29TH) like they were in previous editions. That said maybe the 4th ed would not permit Dregoth (to keep same example) to be 29th level, but he should still be the highest SK.
Hope this make sence to you to
Jihun
Please say thats a joke....I really hope thats a joke.....I don't want to even think of something like the tarrasque geting a dark sun upgrade.....
No one said anything about an upgrade
Athas has no "known" Tarrasque. The only two I know about are, the one from
"Dark Sun: Wake of the Ravager" - DOS Game. I think it was a standard 2nd Ed Tarrasque
and
The Undead Tarrasque
members.cox.net/dragons_sanctum/UndeadTa...
which is unofficial.
BTW I haven't played 4e yet. How fast is it. How long does an average Group, 4-5 Hours a week, need to reach Level 30?
Acording to the DMG, it takes around 8-10 encounters to level, so lets say 3 encounters per session, and 9 encounters per level, so it would be around 3 weeks per level, so 90 weeks, divided by 52 weeks in a year, which equates to almost 2 years. Since you won't game every week, and sometimes you will only get in 2 encounters per session, it will take something over 2 years to get to 30th level.
You know, you can always start out at 30th level...
since no one does the work for me, I decided to build the SKs myself, with the awesome Monster Builder :D.
I'm not yet used to the 4e, so maybe some crack can enlighten me a bit, yeah yeah I'm a little bit lazy but I know that there are some nice people here who can't resist to help a newb :D.
So what roles should the SKs have?
My guess was;
Borys Controller (Soldier would sound nice but I'm not sure if it would make sense)
Dregoth Brute (Giants, Club as a weapon, insane)
Kalid-Na Controller
Nibenay Artillery (he is more supernatural then physical)
Hamanu Soldier (mind and body)
Myron Controller
Lalai-Puy Controller (first i though about Brute)
Abalach-Re Skirmisher (her fight against Sadira)
Tectuktitlay Soldier (warrior nature?)
Andorpinis Controller ( :D)
Sielba Artillery (or Controller, Hamanu's memory is the only reference)
Pennarin Soldier (faught a long limbed, big eyed race (don't know what they mean))
Sacha Skirmisher (Kobolds hunting)
Wyan Artillery (Pixies, a lot to kill)
Kalak Controller (seems about right)
Oronis Artillery or Controller (Avangion)
Daskinor Controller (insane)
Or should they all be Controllers?
Oh and the Prime Elemental Lords.
Earth Brute?
Fire Soldier?
Water Lurker?
Air Skirmisher?
Hopefully I'm not missing something here.
I have yet to play 4E myself so my grasp of this concept may be somewhat lacking but a monster would never have a role of "solo" and "controller" as they contradict each other. A solo monster does not have a "role" in a group because it is its own group, where as the other roles (controller, brute, etc) fill specific tasks within the group.
Hopefully I'm not missing something here.
Monsters have two Roles. One describes their "strength" or toughness, the other their actual Role, or how they use their abilities.
How powerful a Monster is:
Minion, 1 HP, Cannonfodder
Standard, you average Monster
Elite, twice as strong as the standard type, 2x HP (Bosses, or Subbosses)
Solo, 5 times as strong as your standard Monster (Tarrasque, Dragons, Gods etc.)
Athasian Dragons should be Elite or maybe even Solo Monsters, doesn't matter if normal Dragon or Champion.
I would assume that all of the Sorcerer Kings would be Solo monsters.
I'm not an expert or anything. Whenever I create creatures, especially big bosses, it's much easier to imagine them leading a group of minions rather than fighting alone. This is not true for all creatures, for example Dragons (for other settings...), But humanoids are often part of groups. Making some of the SKs Elites, rather than Solos, might make sense. I can imagine Hamanu, for example, as a Elite Soldier (Leader).
But it really depends on the situation.
1. The party hits the DK with a enhanced save ends disable (sleep, teleport out of existance, dominate).
2. The party clears out his minions without the DK doing a thing.
3. The party stuns the DK and kills him with him hardly taking an action.
The point about solo creatures is not that they fight alone (although some of the can and do), the point is that by themselves they are an adequate challenge to a whole party. They have many reactions in responce to PC actions and many defenses against disabling effects. If the DKs are just normal elites, then the fight of normal (not overly optimised) party against one DK and his minions will go like this:
1. The party hits the DK with a enhanced save ends disable (sleep, teleport out of existance, dominate).
2. The party clears out his minions without the DK doing a thing.
3. The party stuns the DK and kills him with him hardly taking an action.
Meh. That's more the fault of bad encounter construction on the part of the DM than the problem with Elite creatures.
What you are describing is the absolute perfect situation for a controller: removing the single greatest threat from a fight. I think you'll find, if you (as the DM) construct a suitable encounter, that a controller will have a harder time negating an elite creature from a fight unless the controller's always rolling critical hits. The other roles really don't have the capacity to disable opponents.
Borys should be just under him, level 35. The difference between rajaat and borys power gap shouldn't be measured by level, though. Rajaats powers, immunities and resistance should be insane, borys should also be very tough, but not as great. Still, those are the absolute powers of athas, even gods (the SKs) bow to them.
As for the sorcerer kings. I believe they should be level 31+. In 4e, the power scale is different than older editions and the idea of a group of pc's being able to laugh at a SK is insulting to my senses.
"oh look, little hamanu (level 27) is here. Good thing we're all level 30."
SK's should be the masters of the world, kept in place ONLY by the great dragon of tyr and the first sorcerer. Not the players. The players, even at level 30, with the stongest magical items, should FEAR a SK encounter. In darksun, the final encounter, the climax, should be a terrifying thing.
In 2e, the idea of gaining greater power than the godkings of athas bothered my players and I, although none of us ever reached that scale of power. In 4e, only death can stop players from reaching the level cap. I hope that 4e DS makes the sorcererkings something to fear and not a speedbump on the way to immortality.
All that said, I am VERY much looking forward to 4e darksun. My players are all very happy and can't wait to be enslaved, used and brutally murdered at the hands of a fanatically happy, bloodthirsty DM. Of course I mean the characters, but you never know. Darksun games can get outa hand.
As a side note, I hope 4e DS gets a bit of the eberron treatment in that eberron included info on multipul continents. I hope we get the jagged cliffs and deadlands info. A bit of a foundation to build upon.
Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with the players out-leveling the SKs. Since the original rules went to 30th and the SKs were not all 30th, there was a possibility of players out-leveling them back then too. If it were up to me, I'd set their levels to the same as in the original rules (was it in the Dragon Kings book?). Borys would be a 30th solo, and Rajaat would be 34/35th, no reason to make him more powerful than Demogorgon or Orcus. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but by setting the SKs in their 20's, they can be mid-epic level challenges, leaving Borys and Rajaat for the big finish.
But in 4e, gaining the level cap isn't nearly as hard as it was in 2e or even 3e. In 2e, even at level 18, high level monsters were still a serious challenge. Mostly due to non-saving throw powers and death attacks/level drain. In 3e, high level monsters were again capable of dropping super powered pcs. In 4e, everything is balanced to the point that level 1 is as much a threat as level 30 and the difference is barely noticable. The game doesn't get progressivly harder like it used to, it actually gets easier depending on the build (feats, powers, items) so the idea of being able to gain 9 levels on a 21st level sk bothers me.
Then again, unless the pcs manage to mask their power, I think the sks would "feel/sense" the pcs power and move to squash them. Plus, having the sorcerer kings at a higher level than possible for the pcs would remove the need to slaughter powerful templars. So a templar pc could gain 29 levels and not have to worry about losing its power or being slain by its patron. Unlike older editions, where a powerful templar got 86ed in a brutal fashion.
Plus, a level 21 monster from 2e wouldn't be at the same power scale as a level 21 monster of 4e. Not exactly sure which would be stronger, but I know its not the same. A level 21 3e monster blows them both out of the water, as 3e was D&D "superman mode" compared to the other two editions.
Still, I must say, despite my doubts, I am very excited about the coming months. I can't wait. If wotc would have released rules for psionics already, I'd be running 4e DS right now, but of course, they release eberron before they release psionics. (making sarlona basically useless)
I'm fiending hard for some athasian love.
Rajaat would be 34/35th, no reason to make him more powerful than Demogorgon or Orcus.
A two headed monkey or a infernal mutt with wings? Come on now. Both of those fools would slink back to their holes in the pit if ever confronted by the first sorcerer. Rajaat... Is... Forever!
Doh! I forgot about the damn tranformation into a dragon. Guess I won't be changing their levels after all.
I didn't think about it either, I was more interested in having BBEG's that are not all 30+
Though we will have to wait and see if Dragon and Avangion are actually Epic Destinies. I would assume they are, but I have no inside information to confirm it.
Doh! I forgot about the damn tranformation into a dragon. Guess I won't be changing their levels after all.
I didn't think about it either, I was more interested in having BBEG's that are not all 30+
Though we will have to wait and see if Dragon and Avangion are actually Epic Destinies. I would assume they are, but I have no inside information to confirm it.
I can confirm they are ED's until someone can offically refute it. Dragon, Avangion and Elemental will be ED's.
It seems that everyone here has forgotten how hard it was to become an advanced being in 2e. 20 levels of one class and then DUAL class to the other. That is straight 20 levels of both classes with a minimum of 15 Con, 15 Wis and 17 Int for all SKs if not higher if they started as their casting class and not a Psionicist. That means all SKs are 20 Wizard /20 Psionicist and then the levels of Dragon which are way more powerful than just 1 level of Wizard and Psionicist.
Oh, I never forgot, which is why I have a issues with the 4e version. A level 21 defiler dragon back in 2e won't be of the same power scale as a level 21 defiler dragon in 4e. Its also VERY easy to gain the level cap in 4e, unlike back in the 2e days. Now, anyone can get to level 30. Infact, the game is designed so that, unless you hit some seriously bad luck and die, or the game falls apart, you will get to level 30. Back in 2e, you could play for years and years and still not get close to level 20.
And, as you pointed out, instead of having two seperate leveling requirements, now 4e only has one. Maybe the darksun epic destinies will require multiclass prerequisits for wizard and psion, but I wouldn't be suprised if it didn't.
If the characters are Paragon Tier (level 11-20), they are becoming the leaders of their respective communities and could start to pose a threat to the rulership of their respective city-state. I imagine that upstarts, such as Tithian, Rikus and Sadira, who wish to usurp control of a city from a SK should be arriving near the end of Paragon Tier. That would put the encounter level at maximum level of 24th level (otherwise the encounter would probably be too difficult for a group of Paragon Tier player characters to succeed). If the SKs are all Solo monsters, then they should be placed at around levels 20-24th.
Now... this is all assuming that Paragon Tier in Dark Sun would usually be about confronting Sorcerer Kings (or their equivalent). I can envision other scenarios, where some of the weaker SKs might challenge the PCs around later Paragon Tier, and the PCs have to fight off others in early Epic Tier. The Dragon might challenge mid-to-high level PCs. Mysterious forces might encounter the PCs by the end of the 30 campaign Arc. This would put the Dragon at high epic level (~30), and someone like Rajaat at level 32+.
I think the level of the SKs totally depends where the SKs fit into the Tier system - which has yet to be discussed or defined by WotC.
The sorcerer-kings were once Champions leading vast armies sweaping across the world, and exceptional beings in their own right no matter how you cut it, so they're at the very least Elites, possibly Solos, and have the Leader keyword. I imagine they are all epic tier, but putting levels on the lot, and on the Dragon, will never reach any kind of concensus in the community. If their levels and type are one day given officially somewhere, there will always be a good-sized portion of the community who'll find them too weak or strong. Can't please everyone.
I see Big_Goon has had some of the same ideas I've had.
instead of drawing up the statistics of a SK as a Monsters, it might be a lot more cool and useful to the entire community to draw up an encounter challenge suitable for a level X party. For example, draw up Hamanu and a set of his elite soldiers in Hamanu's very own throne room. The encounter design could be suitable for level 22 PCs (difficult fight for level 20 PCs) if they catch Hamanu unprepared, and level 24 PCs (very hard for level 20 PCs) if they catch him prepared.
It would make an awesome finish to any Paragon tier campaign.
Anyways, if I was a bit more couragious, I might give it a stab
... bit alas, I don't know how to make it Dark Sunny enough.
If the characters are Paragon Tier (level 11-20), they are becoming the leaders of their respective communities and could start to pose a threat to the rulership of their respective city-state. I imagine that upstarts, such as Tithian, Rikus and Sadira, who wish to usurp control of a city from a SK should be arriving near the end of Paragon Tier. That would put the encounter level at maximum level of 24th level (otherwise the encounter would probably be too difficult for a group of Paragon Tier player characters to succeed). If the SKs are all Solo monsters, then they should be placed at around levels 20-24th.
Now... this is all assuming that Paragon Tier in Dark Sun would usually be about confronting Sorcerer Kings (or their equivalent). I can envision other scenarios, where some of the weaker SKs might challenge the PCs around later Paragon Tier, and the PCs have to fight off others in early Epic Tier. The Dragon might challenge mid-to-high level PCs. Mysterious forces might encounter the PCs by the end of the 30 campaign Arc. This would put the Dragon at high epic level (~30), and someone like Rajaat at level 32+.
The idea that the characters in the prism pentad could take on any SK is the root of the problem. They basically only beat the SKs because that was how the story was written. The chance of any of them actually winning a fight against a SK is almost nonexistent. If anything beating just one of the SKs should be the end of the 30 campaign arc.
Sorcerer-kings, Order members, the likes, will not simply have levels, as if they still were old style 2e NPCs. They'll be 4e "monsters", not NPCs. This is important, as monsters have access to templates, and can be Elites or Solos. In that optic, a monster's power level is now longer just in his...level.
The sorcerer-kings were once Champions leading vast armies sweaping across the world, and exceptional beings in their own right no matter how you cut it, so they're at the very least Elites, possibly Solos, and have the Leader keyword. I imagine they are all epic tier, but putting levels on the lot, and on the Dragon, will never reach any kind of concensus in the community. If their levels and type are one day given officially somewhere, there will always be a good-sized portion of the community who'll find them too weak or strong. Can't please everyone.I see Big_Goon has had some of the same ideas I've had.
I thought it was a given that the sorcerer kings would be monsters, since just about every other npc has been written up as a monster. But even monsters have levels, which plays a part in determining their stats. As for roles, I'm not sure what would be best. Solo monsters are often far easier to take down than elites with standard backup, then again, solos can do some serious damage. I'm sure the sks will end up solos (atleast the higher level ones) but maybe we might get an elite sk or two.
Maybe the phb3 or the DSCG will introduce some new conditions, due to psionics. I doubt it, but you never know.
As for paragon tier sorcerer kings. I'm opposed to that, completely. Becoming a dragon should be an epic destiny, not a paragon path. Unless, of course, you break the metamorphosis into different stages within both paragon and epic, which could work if done right.
Still, the idea of a paragon leveled sorcerer king just doesn't feel right to me. Fighting a sorcerer king is almost as epic as it gets in darksun. The only thing more epic, is fighting the dragon of tyr. DS has plenty of other options for paragon leveled foes, the sorcerer kings don't need to get hit with the nerf bat.
I'm a die hard 2e DS fan, because of its brutality and sheer viciousness. Its level of difficulty is one of its major "turn ons" for me. Reducing a sorcerer king to a second rate boss, even a damn good second rate boss, doesn't sit well with me at all. I highly doubt any of the sks will be lower than epic tier.
And yes, when compared to epic level, paragon is second rate. You just can't compare an elder dragon to an ancient dragon, elder dragons are second rate next to an ancient. This is how I'd view a paragon sk.
On the other hand, if I understand goons idea correctly, a 21st level sk would indeed be a great boss fight for paragon level heroes.
Although I don't think we will see multipul rampage stages. Maybe only a single stage of the transformation. If I had a better understanding on 4e psionics, I would write up a test-drive sk, as it is, I wouldn't be able to make one thats balanced, without more psionic info.
Maybe the phb3 or the DSCG will introduce some new conditions, due to psionics. I doubt it, but you never know.
Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. Psionic powers could make use of a lot of cool conditions...
The idea that the characters in the prism pentad could take on any SK is the root of the problem. They basically only beat the SKs because that was how the story was written. The chance of any of them actually winning a fight against a SK is almost nonexistent. If anything beating just one of the SKs should be the end of the 30 campaign arc.
Nothing is impossible...
Invision this [Warning: minor spoilers of the Prism Pentad]: For PCs finishing Epic Tier [level 10]:
The characters of the PP aquire a powerful artifact in earlier stages of the adventure. In the climax: they must face a skill challenge to drive this artifact into the SK target - weakening him. This is only possible because the SK is already is a weakened state.
Either way, the measure of success of the skill challenge determines how much the SK is weakened.
The character then face a 20th-level character. However, because of both conditions [artifact + self-imposed transformation], the creature has - say - a negative 6 or 7 penalty to all attacks and defenses (and reduced damage...). The SK suddenly becomes equivalent to a 13/14th level challenge. Throw in a difficult-to-discover-loophole for the characters (make it another skill challenge?) about exploding obsidian balls. Make it a race against time [the above conditions wear off?]
Voila! Complex final encounter vs a SK at level 10.
Of course... the above makes no sense in 2nd and 3rd edition because level progression isn't linear AND neither ediions provided a smooth tbalanced machanic to reduce levels.
i'm of the mind that dragons should definitely be epic level monsters. solo sounds about right. but i think the best way about it is to leave the full statting up to the dm at the end of the day. just give some awesome flavor and fluff to each sk/threat of athas and PERHAPS example stats...but it may be better if the final level of power were tailorable to the dm's needs in his/her campaign.
It would, of course, be better if they left it vague, so players can be the city's saviors.
It's just hearsay(sp?) from some official blogs, but they suggest Kalak's death is canon. Does it mean his death followed the Prism Pentad 1 events, that Rikus and Sadira are involved? They don't say.
It would, of course, be better if they left it vague, so players can be the city's saviors.
I ran freedom for my old group so they could experience it, but our "true?" game was never canon. No matter what they offically decide to do has little influence on my personal home games, unless of course, myself and my groups really enjoy it and it works better than homebrewed ideas in our minds.
Hell, even then I'm often motivated to go my own route when I design adventures, regardless of how good the canon is. So kalak being dead or alive, the pristine tower being blown up or not, none of that affects my game. It will be the same with SK stats. If I like the stats, I'll use them, if not, I'll mod them out.
I hope they stat up all the sks and atleast one of each of the other advanced beings, including the deadlords or whatever from the deadlands I doubt we will get more than a single paragraph about non tablelands regions, but I can hope.
As I designed the adventure, I came up with three parts, one for each tier. The epic tier is left for Kalid-ma. But, this means he has to be at least 25th level to challenge 21st level PCs. And I don't want it to end there as I don't see the campaign lasting much longer after he is killed or replaced. This pushes Kalid-ma up to the 26-28 level range.
This got me thinking about the other SKs, though. Let's say that PCs cannot rise above 30th level. For whatever reason, that's the limit. (It helps the books say that.) If the SKs were in level from 21-29, with Borys being in the 30s, what's to stop the first group that reaches epic level from going around and killing the SKs? ALL of the SKs. The SKs won't think they need help against a group until the group is knocking on their door and by then it's too late to ask for help.
So, while I think the specific rule is that the SK needs to be whatever level each individual DM needs them at, I think the general rule is that there are three tiers for the SKs. The lowest powerful SKs are level 28, the medium powerful ones are 29 and the most powerful are 30, leaving Borys to be 32.
This, of course, is based on my thinking and what I want to see and don't want to see. For myself, I want SKs to be epic fights by epic PCs. I don't know the numbers off hand but I think a 20th level group could handle up to a 24th level epic character. And I don't want that same group to then run off and free the rest of the cities "easily" because they heard that the next SK was a pushover.
Or, maybe, the PCs have to have a specific Epic path, which could be tough to get without doing something to prepare for it, to be able to kill a SK. If at least one of them has it, they can defeat that SK.
What I am also doing is that each SK has a specific weakness that if they aren't confronted with, they can't be defeated. During the course of the campaign, the PCs have to figure out the weakness and then use that against the SK.
But that's just me and what I want to do with it.
turlough
In 2nd Edition, it was mechanically difficult to defeat a Sorcerer King in combat no matter how well prepared your party was.
In 4th Edition, because monsters and spells (especially of the Save or Die nature) have been standardized, fighting a Sorcerer King is in mechanical terms, a longer grander version of fighting an orc at 1st level?
Also I would love a Dungeon article to the effect of "How to Kill a Sorcerer King" with tips on setting up truly epic feeling encounters.
Depends what the objectives of your campaign are. If it's to kill Sorcerer Kings, design their levels appropriately. If it's to ally with the SKs, it might be different. Also, SKs could be different levels within and outside of their Palaces. Creature/NPC level =/= character class levels or experience!
In 4th Edition, because monsters and spells (especially of the Save or Die nature) have been standardized, fighting a Sorcerer King is in mechanical terms, a longer grander version of fighting an orc at 1st level?
Any creature that you throw directly at the players - without interesting terrain, traps, etc - will play the same or similar. It's how the DM "dresses up" the encounter that makes a lot of difference. Different combinations of creatures, adding terrain, the description of the battle, etc... The fun of it all is developing the story and challenging the characters.
The DMG(s) have a lot of great help here.
I'm hoping the DS books that come out will have some good ideas to make these encounters memorable.
I didn't play 2nd edition D&D or Dark Sun, but is this the crux of the argument about Sorcerer Kings:
In 2nd Edition, it was mechanically difficult to defeat a Sorcerer King in combat no matter how well prepared your party was.
In 4th Edition, because monsters and spells (especially of the Save or Die nature) have been standardized, fighting a Sorcerer King is in mechanical terms, a longer grander version of fighting an orc at 1st level?
Also I would love a Dungeon article to the effect of "How to Kill a Sorcerer King" with tips on setting up truly epic feeling encounters.
Well, just for fun my group has the occasional one shot.
for the one I ran I had them create level 30 characters
and I created a Dark Sun battle that took around 8 hours!
I created a ziggurat using VHS tapes and star wars tiles.
the idea was that Kaida-ma was using a ritual to become a
high level dragon.
the PCs were going in to stop him
It was three phases:
Hazard: 5 obsiden orbs every other round (2,4,6,8 ect..) a burst that covers
the whole city (attack vs fortitude) lose one surge and HP equal to 1 surge.
(note Kalida-ma started as a level 37 dragon for each orb deastroyed he lost
a level to a minimum level of 32)
phase one the PC's approached the ziggurat and were fighting 2 groups of
1 templar; 2 Half-giants; 4 artillery (archers); 6 minions (average level of badguys 27)
at about round 5 two more groups entered the battle (comming from the other sides of the ziggurat)
Phase two the PC's fought their way up the ziggurat
5 level 28 "templars" (used the monster builder modified a paladin)
2 level 28 elite "templars"
1 level 30 solo templar
Phase three the PC's had to fight the level 32 solo modified purple dragon
we started on a saturday at around 4 pm gamed til 9 pm
continued on the next sunday 6 pm to 9 pm.
it was a good time
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Joe