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Survival days, endurance checks, sun sickness...

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Veggie-sama
Jun 17, 2011 19:47:52 Do the Dark Sun rules for survival days and sun sickness REPLACE or SUPPLEMENT the rules for using the Endurance skill on page 178-180 of the Rules Compendium?

And how about the Surviving the Desert skill challenge?

How do all these rules fit together to account for one day of adventuring time?

This is how I am interpreting things:
1. Survival days obviate the need for tracking supplies, which is good.
2. Sun sickness replaces the starvation/thirst DCs on RC180, which means survival always scales to your level.
3. Endurance skill checks (probably easy DC) are made every day, with failures leading to healing surge losses. If you run out of survival days, the sun sickness might also be subtracting healing surges for a double whammy.
4. The skill challenge takes place over a single day, with a success leading to free survival days. Perhaps this challenge could replace the daily endurance skill checks when the group runs out of survival days? Otherwise it seems long and drawn out. You wouldn't want to run this every day for a week-long journey.

My own ideas to supplement as house rules:
1. Endurance skill check becomes a group skill check, so at least half the group must succeed or everyone in the group loses 1 healing surge. Otherwise the characters without Endurance (who generally have low total healing surges anyway) would run out of breath too quickly.
2. Mounts require 1 survival day per day. Even though they are larger than PCs, I assume their bodies are more adapted to desert travel and require less food and water to keep them moving.
3. Extended rests cannot be taken until you reach a safe DM-approved area, like a cave, an oasis, or a village.
4. Never would use the Surviving the Desert skill challenge. I generally dislike skill challenges, so there.
#2
Alphastream
Jun 21, 2011 22:57:56 I think those are pretty good interpretations. There have been adventures that WotC provided, such as the free gameday (available for free somewhere on the D&D site), that have ideas on skill challenges.

I personally don't worry about the exact nature of the rules because I use them as guidelines and modify based on terrain and the story I'm trying to tell. I might have a harsh terrain consume survival days no matter what and the endurance check dictate additional consumption, for example, to create a real danger of running out of supplies. I also like using the calendar to dictate how harsh the weather is (or elevation for cold).
#3
Raddu76
Jun 22, 2011 11:09:00 I agree with Teos...the rules are guidlines. Sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't.

I have use a few survival skill challenges..one is here:
http://community.wizards.com/raddu76/blog/2011/03/16/to_altaruk

Here are my notes for that skill challenge:

Day 1) Traveling the People's Road is easy, the paved stones make for fast walking and you are accompanied by the clicks of the kank claws on the cobblestones. You pass through a ruined villaged. The smell of charred bodies nauseates some of you and makes other's hungry. You come upon a large pyre. The ragtag group of villages look at you with interest. They have have various farm implements and approach you with menace.

One man steps forward, fresh wounds are apparent and dirt covers his face. "There's a toll for passing through this village" he says, grinning.

Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff checks

Day 2) You leave the comfort of the Verdant Belt to enter a thin strip of sandy wastes. As you break for lunch one of the kanks wanders off.

Kank Lion eats Kank: Round by round, just goin in INit bonus order.
Each round each character must make an Acrobatics Check (DC 16) or fall prone, if prone, the next round fails, slide in the funnel toward the ANt Lion. Athlectics (DC 23) to climb up, 2 checks to get out.

Acrobatics can be used to lasso the Kank (DC 23), Subsequent Athletics (DC 23) to pull it out, 4 success needed. (Each 30 points of damage done to the Kank Lion reduced the successes needed by 1)

Giant Ant Lion Level 8 Lurker
Large natural beast XP 1750
Initiative +11 Senses Perception +11; darkvision; tremmorsense
HP 184 Bloodied 92
AC 24; Fortitude 23, Reflex 22, Will 20
Immune poison; Resist 10 fire; Vulnerable 5 cold
Saving Throws +5
Speed 2, burow 6

The character's have 5 rounds before the Kank Lion pulls the Kank down.

Success; Keep the Kank
Failure: Lose the kank to the Kank Lion

Day 3) Traveling through the day, you begin your journey through the rock badlands. As you take a ridge, amazingly, you can see for miles around, to the south the Estuary of the Forked Tongue stretches before you. The wind is calm and little silt clogs the air. Far to the west you see a group of what looks like some type of humanoids standing atop a small craft with a sail, they float above the silt as if they had wings. ( Raiders of Chanth on the horizon (Raiders of Chanth Dungeon #44))

Day 4) The previous day's calm is shattered by howling winds and silt scouring your skin. It getis in your mouth hair, your eyes, your ears. It blocks the sun from the sky.

Perception (23), Nature (23), Heal (16 for +2 to next Per/Nat check), Group Endurance CHeck (11). For Every Per/Nat check the group must make a group Endurance CHeck. Needs 6 successes, for every 2 failures they lose a day returning to the road. After 2 failed checks, Diplomacy can be used to calm arguing parties.

Day ?) You leave the rocky badlands and are grateful for the protection of the Altaruk Range peaks. The silt storm was large and even in the protected walls of the mountains large drifts of silt have piled along the trial, footing is precarious and care must be taken to maneuver the kanks and yourselves.

Acrobatics, Althetics, Endurance (16), 6 successes needed, every 3 failures, a kank tumbles down a slope to it's death.

Day?)

#4
Veggie-sama
Jun 22, 2011 11:33:04 Last Saturday, I played a 4-day journey using my interpretation mentioned in the first post.

I had 4 players, and they seemed to like the group Endurance checks. Only one player was trained, so there was some tension in seeing who would make the 2nd check. When the trained player failed on day 3 (rolled a natural 1), it was funny to listen to the gasps.

One player wanted to forage, so I said he could forage for himself as a medium DC or 2-5 other group members as a hard DC. The Rules Compendium gives static DCs for Nature forage checks, but I didn't know that at the time. He failed once on the hard DC, but another player quickly helped with with an encounter power to boost his roll. I think I was going to make him lose a healing surge if he failed.

Each day, the DCs for Nature and Endurance checks changed based on the terrain. One player also contracted Sun Sickness previously, so there were a few Endurance/Heal checks for disease as well. On the third day, I broke up the rolls with a skill challenge followed by an encounter.

All in all, it went pretty well. The intent was to make the journey feel like a challenge in and of itself, and I think I succeeded.
#5
Alphastream
Jun 22, 2011 12:11:34 Very cool!

One other thing to consider is the gamist vs realist approach. Group endurance checks tend to feel very gamist... everyone knows that every "day" they will roll dice. In contrast, having a sandstorm come across with various checks determining how much damage is done to their survival days, and then a follow-up scene to find water in a dried up mudpool... that feels realistic.

I like to alternate and even combine approaches so as to not live just in the gamist situation.
#6
Veggie-sama
Jun 22, 2011 12:53:00 Yeah, it's gamist, and in some ways it should be, I think. Players need to know what they're getting into if they have to go traveling, so they can plan accordingly. But like your sandstorm example, breaking up the days with encounters, descriptions, and other skill checks is vital, or the samey-samey dice rolls will drag on and on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Veggie-sama Jun 17, 2011 19:47:52	Do the Dark Sun rules for survival days and sun sickness REPLACE or SUPPLEMENT the rules for using the Endurance skill on page 178-180 of the Rules Compendium? And how about the Surviving the Desert skill challenge? How do all these rules fit together to account for one day of adventuring time? This is how I am interpreting things: 1. Survival days obviate the need for tracking supplies, which is good. 2. Sun sickness replaces the starvation/thirst DCs on RC180, which means survival always scales to your level. 3. Endurance skill checks (probably easy DC) are made every day, with failures leading to healing surge losses. If you run out of survival days, the sun sickness might also be subtracting healing surges for a double whammy. 4. The skill challenge takes place over a single day, with a success leading to free survival days. Perhaps this challenge could replace the daily endurance skill checks when the group runs out of survival days? Otherwise it seems long and drawn out. You wouldn't want to run this every day for a week-long journey. My own ideas to supplement as house rules: 1. Endurance skill check becomes a group skill check, so at least half the group must succeed or everyone in the group loses 1 healing surge. Otherwise the characters without Endurance (who generally have low total healing surges anyway) would run out of breath too quickly. 2. Mounts require 1 survival day per day. Even though they are larger than PCs, I assume their bodies are more adapted to desert travel and require less food and water to keep them moving. 3. Extended rests cannot be taken until you reach a safe DM-approved area, like a cave, an oasis, or a village. 4. Never would use the Surviving the Desert skill challenge. I generally dislike skill challenges, so there.
#2 Alphastream Jun 21, 2011 22:57:56	I think those are pretty good interpretations. There have been adventures that WotC provided, such as the free gameday (available for free somewhere on the D&D site), that have ideas on skill challenges. I personally don't worry about the exact nature of the rules because I use them as guidelines and modify based on terrain and the story I'm trying to tell. I might have a harsh terrain consume survival days no matter what and the endurance check dictate additional consumption, for example, to create a real danger of running out of supplies. I also like using the calendar to dictate how harsh the weather is (or elevation for cold).
#3 Raddu76 Jun 22, 2011 11:09:00	I agree with Teos...the rules are guidlines. Sometimes I use them, sometimes I don't. I have use a few survival skill challenges..one is here: http://community.wizards.com/raddu76/blog/2011/03/16/to_altaruk Here are my notes for that skill challenge: Day 1) Traveling the People's Road is easy, the paved stones make for fast walking and you are accompanied by the clicks of the kank claws on the cobblestones. You pass through a ruined villaged. The smell of charred bodies nauseates some of you and makes other's hungry. You come upon a large pyre. The ragtag group of villages look at you with interest. They have have various farm implements and approach you with menace. One man steps forward, fresh wounds are apparent and dirt covers his face. "There's a toll for passing through this village" he says, grinning. Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff checks Day 2) You leave the comfort of the Verdant Belt to enter a thin strip of sandy wastes. As you break for lunch one of the kanks wanders off. Kank Lion eats Kank: Round by round, just goin in INit bonus order. Each round each character must make an Acrobatics Check (DC 16) or fall prone, if prone, the next round fails, slide in the funnel toward the ANt Lion. Athlectics (DC 23) to climb up, 2 checks to get out. Acrobatics can be used to lasso the Kank (DC 23), Subsequent Athletics (DC 23) to pull it out, 4 success needed. (Each 30 points of damage done to the Kank Lion reduced the successes needed by 1) Giant Ant Lion Level 8 Lurker Large natural beast XP 1750 Initiative +11 Senses Perception +11; darkvision; tremmorsense HP 184 Bloodied 92 AC 24; Fortitude 23, Reflex 22, Will 20 Immune poison; Resist 10 fire; Vulnerable 5 cold Saving Throws +5 Speed 2, burow 6 The character's have 5 rounds before the Kank Lion pulls the Kank down. Success; Keep the Kank Failure: Lose the kank to the Kank Lion Day 3) Traveling through the day, you begin your journey through the rock badlands. As you take a ridge, amazingly, you can see for miles around, to the south the Estuary of the Forked Tongue stretches before you. The wind is calm and little silt clogs the air. Far to the west you see a group of what looks like some type of humanoids standing atop a small craft with a sail, they float above the silt as if they had wings. ( Raiders of Chanth on the horizon (Raiders of Chanth Dungeon #44)) Day 4) The previous day's calm is shattered by howling winds and silt scouring your skin. It getis in your mouth hair, your eyes, your ears. It blocks the sun from the sky. Perception (23), Nature (23), Heal (16 for +2 to next Per/Nat check), Group Endurance CHeck (11). For Every Per/Nat check the group must make a group Endurance CHeck. Needs 6 successes, for every 2 failures they lose a day returning to the road. After 2 failed checks, Diplomacy can be used to calm arguing parties. Day ?) You leave the rocky badlands and are grateful for the protection of the Altaruk Range peaks. The silt storm was large and even in the protected walls of the mountains large drifts of silt have piled along the trial, footing is precarious and care must be taken to maneuver the kanks and yourselves. Acrobatics, Althetics, Endurance (16), 6 successes needed, every 3 failures, a kank tumbles down a slope to it's death. Day?)
#4 Veggie-sama Jun 22, 2011 11:33:04	Last Saturday, I played a 4-day journey using my interpretation mentioned in the first post. I had 4 players, and they seemed to like the group Endurance checks. Only one player was trained, so there was some tension in seeing who would make the 2nd check. When the trained player failed on day 3 (rolled a natural 1), it was funny to listen to the gasps. One player wanted to forage, so I said he could forage for himself as a medium DC or 2-5 other group members as a hard DC. The Rules Compendium gives static DCs for Nature forage checks, but I didn't know that at the time. He failed once on the hard DC, but another player quickly helped with with an encounter power to boost his roll. I think I was going to make him lose a healing surge if he failed. Each day, the DCs for Nature and Endurance checks changed based on the terrain. One player also contracted Sun Sickness previously, so there were a few Endurance/Heal checks for disease as well. On the third day, I broke up the rolls with a skill challenge followed by an encounter. All in all, it went pretty well. The intent was to make the journey feel like a challenge in and of itself, and I think I succeeded.
#5 Alphastream Jun 22, 2011 12:11:34	Very cool! One other thing to consider is the gamist vs realist approach. Group endurance checks tend to feel very gamist... everyone knows that every "day" they will roll dice. In contrast, having a sandstorm come across with various checks determining how much damage is done to their survival days, and then a follow-up scene to find water in a dried up mudpool... that feels realistic. I like to alternate and even combine approaches so as to not live just in the gamist situation.
#6 Veggie-sama Jun 22, 2011 12:53:00	Yeah, it's gamist, and in some ways it should be, I think. Players need to know what they're getting into if they have to go traveling, so they can plan accordingly. But like your sandstorm example, breaking up the days with encounters, descriptions, and other skill checks is vital, or the samey-samey dice rolls will drag on and on.