Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 timbucktoo Oct 30, 2010 17:27:33	So I just started running DS again after about 15 years and I love the new and improved setting. I want the game to feel dangerous on long trips but my players fill up on survival days.  Should I set a limit as to how much they can carry?  Maybe limit availability? What do you do?
#2 JohnLynch Oct 30, 2010 19:14:07	I want the game to feel dangerous on long trips but my players fill up on survival days.  Should I set a limit as to how much they can carry?  Maybe limit availability? What do you do?     You know how in 4th ed no-one calculates encumberance because its boring and time consuming? Dark Sun is the one campaign where you seriously need to calculate encumberance. As long as you deny your players the ability to magically transport goods (e.g. no bags of holding), then they will need to carry enough supplies for them to reach the next settlement. This will probably require them to buy mounts in order to transport these supplies. In this case, they'll need to buy enough supplies for their mounts to survive to the next settlement. If the players only carry the minimum number of supplies they'll require, then they're going to be in a lot of trouble if a sandstorm picks up and they need to hole down for a few days (and possibly get lost in the process). If they carry a crapload of supplies, the more supplies they bring, the more mounts they'll need which means the more supplies they need, etc, etc. I would argue that players need to make ride checks in order to lead more than 1 spare pack animal (e.g. If each individual player has a mount they're riding and also a mount they're leading, then no checks are required. However if they have 2 or more mounts they're leading in addition to the mount they're riding, then checks will be required). I would argue its a nature check. But you may want to houserule you're own personal feat into the campaign allowing players to substitute the nature check for another skill, or have the feat give them a significant bonus to the nature check only for the purposes of riding and leading pack animals across the desert. If you feel the players are STILL abusing this buy leading a ridiculous amount of pack animals for a mere 5 people, you can easily have them attacked, and possibly have some of the mounts attacked as well. Or have mount thieves come in during the night, and try to steal some of the players mounts. Neither may succeed, but the players will be experiencing in character consequences for having such a large caravan. Of course Wizards of the Coast have failed to specify the weight for"survival days". We know a day's worth of food weighs 1lb (thanks to PHB1). this page indicates that in normal circumstances you should drink 80 ounces a day (weighs 5 lbs plus container). However it also indicates when hiking you should drink 1/2 to 1 quart an hour. If we assume the middle when travelling through the desert and that you travel for 10 hours, this would be 292 ounces a day (weighs about 18 lbs). So one survival day equals about 19 lbs. A standard survival kit (48 lbs) would weigh the following: Backpack (2 lbs) Bedroll (5 lbs) Climber's Kit (11 lbs) Empty Barrel (2 lbs) - carrying capacity is carrying 4,000 ounces or 14 survival days. 3 empty flasks (3 lbs) 1 tent (20 lbs) Desert Garb (4 lbs) Hunting Knife (1 lb) Assuming a human weighing 135 lbs and wearing leather armour (15 lbs) while carrying three light blades due to breakage rules (6 lbs) and a light shield (6 lbs). This human will weigh 162 lbs before equipment or survival days. Travelling from Tyr to Urik will equal about 400 miles, or a minimum of 16 and a half days if the person walks it. This will require 304 lbs of survival days per person. Given a barrel only contains 14 days, they'll need a second barrel for the extra 2.5 days. So the person will be carrying 381 lbs at a minimum. A strength 10 character can carry 100 lbs without difficulty, while a strength 20 character can carry 200 lbs without difficulty. As such, they're going to need pack animals. It is simply impossible to travel to Tyr without a pack animal. I would argue a kank needs a quarter as much food and water as a human. So a kank would need 3 survival days which weighs 57 lbs. A kank can carry an additional 123 lbs. A strength 10 character can carry all its equipment, plus 25 lbs of survival days. This leaves 356 lbs needed to be carried. This will require 3 kanks (rounding up). Given I've specified above that you can only have 2 mounts before you require skill checks, the party will be needing to make skill checks every single for the 14 day journey (extremely successful skill checks might equal two days worth of successes for that individual character). Even with a normal DC, they're going to fail at least some of those checks. This also assumes the party has perfect weather and doesn't experience any sandstorms whatsoever. I'll also point out in order to travel to Tyr, a single character will will need to spend 2,520 "gp" only on their mounts. If we go with 5 gp per survival day (I don't believe this is correct, however I'm willing to go along with it for the purposes of this forum post), survival days will cost 125 gp per character. As such the very first journey from Urik to Tyr will cost each player 2,645 gp (assuming they have NO spare supplies whatsoever). A party of 5 characters will need to spend 13,225 gp and have to pray and hope they get no sandstorms. It will take the party 7 levels to gain the required number of "gp" to be able to journey to Tyr. To me, this suddenly doesn't feel like a "minor challenge" that players can easily overcome by hoarding survival days. It has quickly become a significant journey that will require them to spend 7 levels saving up to survive the journey. I'd give them pretty goods on surviving if they waited this long, as I'll have let them somehow gained enough coin by selling "magic items" in order to comfortably survive the journey (keeping in mind, it will probably require purchasing a 4th kank). This will take into account average weather and some difficulty with leading 20 kanks for the party.
#3 Plaguescarred1 Oct 30, 2010 21:05:07	John's post was a good exercise, but a little too harsh and discouraging i think. If every Urik-Tyr travel would cost an individual approx. 2,500 gp, no one would do so but the wealthiest merchants. A Survival Day weight 8 lbs and is an abstract representation of the preparations a traveler must make to navigate the wastelands without risk of exposure. Each survival day includes water, food, proper apparel, and common unguents to ward off sunburn. So a 14 days travel from Urik to Tyr will take 14 SD for a total of 112 lb.  A typical modest nomad party would travel with a few cheap Erdlu riding beast equiped with sacks to stock on extra supplies. Count another 7 SD for the Erdlu itself and an extra 61 lb. It would fall within the Heady Load of 320 lbs an Erdlu is able to carry if rided on though. A Typical Urik-Tyr 14 days travel would average 500 gp in supply and 375 gp in mounts.  Note here a good part of the cost lies in the riding beats which will be theirs after the initial purchase.
#4 JohnLynch Oct 30, 2010 22:42:34	If every Urik-Tyr travel would cost an individual approx. 2,500 gp, no one would do so but the wealthiest merchants. That's not completely accidental. In normal D&D campaign settings, you can travel from one end of the world to the other will little to no trouble. In Dark Sun, the length of the Known World is significantly smaller then you're average D&D world. In order for it to feel like a big and dangerous world outside the city-states, travelling needs to be prohibitively expensive. That's on the first time around. All subsequent trips (assuming no mounts are killed) would cost 625 gp per trip (or one of the smallest treasure parcels from level 8 to level 12. From then on its less then a total parcel). However getting that first influx of cash should be extremely difficult. I played in a Dark Sun campaign where we had a single wagon with a single inix and were able to travel the Known World with very little to stop us (our only danger was level appropriate threats). This impacted on my enjoyment of the campaign to a significant degree. I wasn't surviving the harsh wastes of Athas. I was playing in a standard D&D campaign that had a few trappings from Dark Sun placed on top of it in a poor effort to disguise the campaign's true nature. Instead merchants must find a patron or other source of income in order to be able to setup their own business. This comes with strings attached where the patron will require certain things from the player. This allows the DM to have a built in source of plot-hooks that the characters will be required to go on, or else face the consequences of disobeying their patron. It also gives the characters a firmly established place in the world. No more are they homeless vagabonds who kill so they can steal from their victims so that they can buy better equipment in order to kill tougher opponents so they can then in turn steal from these victims so that they can buy even better equipment, etc, etc. Now they are employees in an organisation (whether its a noble house, city militia or just a wealthy and independent merchant who has escaped the wrath of the Merchant Houses long enough to fund the players' travels). By allying themselves with an organisation, they gain that organisation's allies and enemies. This helps make the setting feel much more immersive then if they simply go into dungeons and all the time, slaughter the dungeon's inhabitants and then loot all the things of value from the dungeon. Alternatively you can also cut down on the amount of mounts you need by foraging as you travel from Urik to Tyr. This will require an outdoorsy character who shouldn't be cheap to hire (I haven't yet worked out how much standard services such as a guide should cost). This will cut down on the number of supplies you must carry which will also cut down on the number of mounts you must lead. However it will slow you down to a degree as you will need to spend more time foraging. It will also require you to be able to kill food sources and obtain a guide who is willing to lead you to hidden cisterns and other sources of water. This of course carries the danger of you most likely travelling off the main trade routes which will mean you are significantly more at the mercy of your guide. If the guide turns on you and leads you into an ambush, you may survive the fight, but you are completely screwed over in reaching civilization. If you have chosen poorly with your guide, you could be dead simply due to the elements. Of course PCs can get around the dangers of a guide by playing a ranger or nomad. In this scenario, however, the PC should mainly be able to guide players in a very specific region which would be his tribe's lands. By going this route monsters stop being bags of XP and suddenly become sources of food, hide, bones, claws and other valuable items. This can be harvested and then sold in return for "gp." This helps differentiate Dark Sun from your standard D&D setting. The players stop finding piles of gold and magic items, and instead discover pools of water and deposits of valuable stones (such as alabaster) along with numerous goods from animals. A Survival Day weight 8 lbs and is an abstract representation of the preparations a traveler must make to navigate the wastelands without risk of exposure. Each survival day includes water, food, proper apparel, and common unguents to ward off sunburn. I clearly prefer a much more simulationist approach when I'm playing Dark Sun (I also play in core 4th ed world, Eberron and Golarion from Pathfinder. I am more than happy to handwave travel costs in these settings). I think by going more along what I've outlined above you succeed in creating a fun and unique setting. A game like no other that the PCs will ever play in. So a 14 days travel from Urik to Tyr will take 14 SD for a total of 112 lb.  A typical modest nomad party would travel with a few cheap Erdlu riding beast equiped with sacks to stock on extra supplies. Count another 7 SD for the Erdlu itself and an extra 61 lb. It would fall within the Heady Load of 320 lbs an Erdlu is able to carry if rided on though. A Typical Urik-Tyr 14 days travel would average 500 gp in supply and 375 gp in mounts.  Note here a good part of the cost lies in the riding beats which will be theirs after the initial purchase. This would be obtainable at level 4 at the earliest, which would also be acceptable to me.
#5 apitch85 Oct 31, 2010 1:14:21	I almost completely agree with John. This is Athas, travel should /NOT/ be handwaved. And thus encumberance needs to be calculated. And, look, they only carried just enough supplies to get them to their destination? A localized quake occurs and drops the party into an unexplored, uncharted cave system and, in the fall, many of their water casks were broken and spilled. They're now somewhat lost in an unexplored area with little provisions. They now have little choice but to trudge forward at a quick pace in an attempt to find supplies. This is going to encourage the party to gain pacing momentum as described in the dmg 2. They're going to have to take fewer extended rests and face as many encounters as possible with few resources (encounter powers, dailies, surges, etc), creating a very exciting and nailbiting session. All because they don't have enough water. Take that Faerun. edit: And carrying a ton of stuff via a small caravan or a bunch of beasts of burdens only puts a big, shiny "RAID US" sign over their head. Screwed either way, and that's why I love this setting.
#6 oxfordnd Oct 31, 2010 19:27:36	Dont forget with the use of a good nature skill u can forage for 1-5 people, always helps if u want to limit the survival days they can carry, but want to inject a bit of danger, then u have that nature check  to fall back on should things get heated ;)
#7 Plaguescarred1 Nov 01, 2010 2:45:45	I agree that Athas must remain distinctive for it's very harsh nature. Survival Days where packaged for ease of use much like an Adventurer's kit. But it's not too far from the truth. 8 lbs of food and water for a day. But the sheer weight of them coupled with the price of beast of burden makes it as harder as anywhere else to set for travels. Perhaps a little more due to the increase quantity of water needed. And the beast, saw the price of theses ? Alot cheaper on Faerun...Beyond that it's just an excercise of packing and walking. But what will makes it more a dangerous run will be when the unexpected happen. A storm on Faerun or in Khorvaire is nothing more than a day break. On Athas, it means wasting precious ressources while unable to move. Put on that raiders that will attack you for your ressources simply. In Darokin, they might simply demand your gold to pass freely. On Athas, the bandits wants all your Ceramics, all your food and water, some useful gears and extra cloths and will strip you naked. Some might even take your flesh off too and eat you. It makes every encounters a danger in itself. And i am not talking of the savage creatures more voracious than others that will attack in the dead of the night. And more.... I think it's the biggest challenge a DM must face. To make Athas not feel just like another D&D Setting. It has to stand out. People must fear it as much as Ravenloft. The latter is wicked, the former is simply brutal and without pity. Was just to say it's relatively expensive to travel but the dangers is what prevent the people from travelling the most, not the cost and weight of Survival Days solely. A Handful of merchant and guards etc.. travel everyday outside the City-States. Considerably less than around Cormyr, but still.
#8 Kye_Tyrad Nov 01, 2010 10:29:48	I always keep the travel fairly hazardous with or without a patron merchant financing the expedition. Keep in mind that even it the PCs are able to carry the load, that all of this will be bulky as well and make things difficult on it own right. A small procession of mounts with or w/o a small wagon of just survival supplies makes for an easy and lucrative target.  Raiding groups love easy targets.  Even if the battle is not challenging enough for the PC's it does waste time and the raiders may even target the mounts themselves if the battle is not going their way! Weather is a major factor in Dark Sun.  Beyond the sun itself beating down upon the PC's the wind can be very abrasive and whip up nasty storms that can last for days, which will bury trails and make navigation impossible.  Trying to find your direction in a sandstorm should be extremely difficult at best.  If you are able to find shelter this will add extra time onto your travels.  The waterskins need to be protected as well...remember the movie Hidalgo?  After the storm the waterskin he had was full of mud due to all of the fine particles that were able to get inside of the waterskin!
#9 sir_sparhawk Nov 02, 2010 17:19:41	When you buy multiple survival days, I disagree with having to buy multiple bedrolls, climbers kits, backpacks.  That just doesn't make sense.  The characters need those, that's for sure, but they're one time buys.  If my players have those, then that's not what they're buying when purchasing more survival kits.  What they're buying is water and food for the travel.  Traveling the wastes should impose a skill challenge for those involved.  I came up with one that is working extremely well and my players love it.  It's a group challenge that they must all partake in each day.  The DC's go up according to their level as the environment is just as tough on a 30th lvl character as it is for a 1st lvl character.  This is my template design.  Depending on what the PC's must traverse, changes not only the skill difficulties, but also possibly the skills used in the challenge.  You'll recognize the similarity to the skill challenge in one of the online DS adventures and it has some minor adjustments.  Here's how it works: Primary Skills:  Athletics, Endurance, Perception, Stealth.      Athletics (DC 10, group check; 1 success):  The character climbs ledges, leaps across chasms, or trudges through silt, helping the party bypass rough terrain.                                                              Endurance (DC 15, group check; 1 success):  Your group is tough enough to survive even the relentless heat of the Athasian sun.       Perception (DC 10, group check; 1 success):  Keen eyes and direction sense keep you headed in the right direction.      Stealth  (DC 15, group check; 1 success):  Dangers abound in the Athasian wilderness, but they can be avoided if your group is quick and quiet. Secondary Skills:  Acrobatics, Bluff, Heal, Nature      Acrobatics (DC 10; 0 successes, 1 attempt per primary skill group check):  You see your comrade struggle with the terrain and you're able to assist them through the tougher segments and at times you're able to keep them from causing injury to themselves.  Convert a single characters failed Athletics check to a success.      Bluff (DC 15; 0 successes, 1 attempt per primary skill group check):  By creating a diversion that keeps hostile humanoids and monsters from noticing your group, you convert a single character's failed Stealth check into a success as part of the Stealth primary group skill check.      Heal (DC 10; 0 successes, 1 attempt per primary skill group check):  By treating the emerging symptoms of heat exhaustion and sun sickness before they become debilitating, you convert a single character's failed Endurance check into a success as part of the Endurance primary group skill check.      Nature (DC 15; 0 successes, 1 attempt per primary skill group check):  By carefully navigating the harsh Athasian wilderness and avoiding its worst flora and fauna, you convert a single character's failed Perception check into a success as part of the Perception primary group skill check.      Success:  The characters reach the next encounter unharmed and intact.  They have had ample time to rest and have maximum hit points and all powers available to them.      Failure:  Group failure (not individual failure) at a primary skill check has the following results.      Athletics:  Each time the group as a whole fails at this skill check, every character who failed the Athletics check individually loses one healing surge for the next encounter.      Endurance:  Each time the group as a whole fails at this skill check, every character who failed the Endurance check individually is exposed to Sun Sickness (Dark Sun Campaign Setting page 199).  Special:  If each character has an available survival day for the day of this check, a group failure only adds 1 day of travel to the trip and no attack from Sun Sickness occures to those who individually failed the check.      Perception:  Each time the group as a whole fails at this skill check, every character who failed the Perception check individually gains a cumulative -1 penalty to all subsequent Perception checks made as part of this skill challenge.      Stealth:  If the group as a whole fails at this skill check, they have a combat encounter with one of the desert's many dangerous inhabitants.  Choose and run one of the follwing optional encounters.