The 2e boxed set eas even more ambiguous in the history - this is positively a historical encyclopedia in contrast.
What heavy hitters are you talking about? Right from 1st level 4e characters are much nastier and tougher. If this is a reference to goliaths as hal giants then it had to be done. Large creatures as PCas break the system.
The setting is still the same. Some of the mechanics have changed, but that is why DMs can do houserules.
Can I have your stuff?
I would have asked, but I actually like the 4E rule set, and like the 4E Dark Sun stuff.
What heavy hitters are you talking about? Right from 1st level 4e characters are much nastier and tougher. If this is a reference to goliaths as hal giants then it had to be done. Large creatures as PCas break the system.
I think, perhaps, he was referring to the Sorceror Kings (and maybe the lack of stats for Rikus and the rest) and the other "big guys" in the Creature book.
Can I have your stuff?
I would have asked, but I actually like the 4E rule set, and like the 4E Dark Sun stuff.
I also like the 4E rule set and the 4E Dark Sun stuff. Thus why I would like to have his stuff. He's obviously not going to use it anymore, so give it to me and I can then have extra copies to share with friends who do not yet own it.
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
If you don't explain yourself, I call whiney troll.
I think, perhaps, he was referring to the Sorceror Kings...
What's wrong with them? I admit to being new to Dark Sun, but aren't the Sorcerer Kinds all high epic-level challenges? That seems pretty appropriate to me given what I know, that they're not at the level of Gods but are still effectively the most powerful beings on Athas.
History leads to long expositions through Knowledge checks rather than unique adventures and one thing this book does well is give ideas for new mechanics to create setting-appropriate adventures. I love Eberron, and last year on ECG Day I literally ran down the UPS truck when I missed the guy at the doorbell. But the 4E ECG book is way too much history and not enough setting mechanics like political intrigue and Last War battles. Its less Eberron and more, fighting Eberron NPCs in the same traditional environment. Its a palette swap that doesn't help you create a world. The Dark Sun book accomplishes this, or at least comes closer.
But then I got to thinking about it. All the fleshing out of Dark Sun, and all the fluff, and everything that made the original campaign setting great didn't appear in the first box set. It took them years to develop the Dark Sun that we all know and love. I think i was expecting all those years worth of printed material to appear in this one book. Which couldn't happen. In myopinion, there is more information in this new campain book creature catalog then there was in the original boxed set.
So, after thinking about it I changed my mind and really love the new Dark Sun stuff. Of course it can't be the same as before, it's a new system. BUt i think they did a good job with it. AND with time, as new stuff is released, either through DDi or in print, it will get as good as the old system, if not better.
I personally like the new book buuuut..... i do agree on one thing. The biggest thing about 2e i liked was the in depth history. I enjoyed ready the history and storys of the green age, fall of Guistenal creation of the sorceror kings act act. Leaving ALLLLLLLL of that out was a big dissapointment to me. thankfully i own almost every 2e book made so i will just continue using that knowledge for my games. but i still think wizards could have added at least a little bit of the history.
That's the second box set. The original box set was just as ambiguous as the 4e book, even more so, actually.
Classes were distinctive and different in 2e Dark Sun; here, it seems to be anything goes. They're talked about little, or sporadically and in a way that it's difficult to put together how all of these new classes that 4E has compared to the old Dark Sun...it's really about all I wanted out of this book and it's just not in it.
The character themes just don't cut it for me here, they seem like a cop out on actually reworking things to be Dark Sun instead of just adding some flavor text.
The world info is actually fine, although the inclusion of almost everything into the world whether it fit or not (it's really rare!) seems like another cop out.
Wild Talents, something that was a defining feature of 2e Dark Sun... is one page. One page?
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
Kind of ambiguous. I think you over-valued your thoughts.
Classes were distinctive and different in 2e Dark Sun; here, it seems to be anything goes. They're talked about little, or sporadically and in a way that it's difficult to put together how all of these new classes that 4E has compared to the old Dark Sun...it's really about all I wanted out of this book and it's just not in it.
The classes have been made a little bit more universal in 4e, the reason they had to have a definate flavor for DS in 2e was because the classes had a more definate flavor for other settings. Classes are no longer completely bound to character concepts as they were in 2e. If you wanted to play a priest in 2e, you pretty much played a cleric. 4e, classes are pretty much just how you fight and where you get your ability to fight. You can can play an ordained priest who just shouts fire-and-brimstone sermons to inspire his allies and scare his foes, and use the warlord class.
The character themes just don't cut it for me here, they seem like a cop out on actually reworking things to be Dark Sun instead of just adding some flavor text.
It's easier for everyone to do a templar theme than do a templar build for wizard, swordmage, warlock, psion, monk, shaman, warden... It's not a cop-out, it's efficiency.
The world info is actually fine, although the inclusion of almost everything into the world whether it fit or not (it's really rare!) seems like another cop out.
Gnomes are still dead. As are orcs, goblins, kobolds... Heck, they even killed off the Deva. Divine classes are gone, with only suggestions of including a PC as the only known instance of a divine character if the DM wants to play a completely unofficial Dark Sun game. Aside from Dragonborn the Tieflings (who weren't a PC race at the time, or even a monster when Dark Sun first came out), the races officially in 4e DS were in 2e DS in some form or fashion (beast-headed giants/minotaurs, and dray/dragonborn weren't PC races, but they were present).
Wild Talents, something that was a defining feature of 2e Dark Sun... is one page. One page?
2e wild talents required using the clunky, confusing, and honestly just bad rules that 2e had. 4e's one page is an efficient job, and they can release more wild talents in future releases. Wizard cantrips can be turned into more wild talents, if you want.
Also, I am not one much to complain about the artwork in my RPG books, but it is very hit and miss in this version. the peoples of the world should look, to me, dirty, dusty, grizzled, tough and hardened. Like Road Warrior meets Spartacus. Too many people in the book look like they just came from a day at the spa. I.e. Gladiator Barbie on page 50.
I'd like to have seen more of some things. More themes, more wild talents and some details on how classes fit into the world. But I assume those will come in the magazines and I realize that putting those in would have meant that some things would have to be cut.
Other than that, I like, and none of my whines are deal killers. Just minor disapointments.
For you would-be assailants, I am immune to flames. I also possess a +34 Trident of Troll Thrashing. Retort...if you dare.
And they fixed wild talent psionics? YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH! (Finally.)
Definitely on my purchase list now.
They left out the history? YEEEEEESSSSSS! I kiss you, designers!
And they fixed wild talent psionics? YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHH! (Finally.)
Definitely on my purchase list now.
They didn't leave out the history. The cleansing Wars, Rajaat, the advanced halflings, the champions, it's all still there. They just didn't go into a great amount of detail.
My impression so far is that they forgot a chapter during character creation.
Classes were distinctive and different in 2e Dark Sun; here, it seems to be anything goes. They're talked about little, or sporadically and in a way that it's difficult to put together how all of these new classes that 4E has compared to the old Dark Sun...it's really about all I wanted out of this book and it's just not in it.
That is one thing that i wish they would have done.. Explained how each class is tweaked in Dark Sun. Some are obvious but others aren't. Such as wardens and druids. Would they still transform into Rams, Bears, Panthers? Do those exist?
We changed the name and appearance of the power Form of the Fearsome Ram, to Form of the Fearsome Braxat. To us, it was just more fitting.
I love the setting and the 4e take on it. That being said there are a couple of disapointments. First and foremost is tieflings. It seems every other race gets a 'twist' in DS. Except for Tieflings. They just struck a bargain with unspecified powers in order to survive rather than with the powers of Hell to defeat an enemy. Other than that, pretty much the same as standard tieflings.
However, this time the deal isn't specified. My theory is the Tieflings are Ur Draxans. The Dragon has small horns, but does have horns. Ur Draxa is built on an elemental vortex (fire resistance), its society encourages vengeance (Infernal Wrath), underhanded tactics (skill bonuses, Bloodhunt), and although their warrior culture is a bit jock-ish, they are the most advanced culture on the planet (+2 int and cha).
Course, since the devils did survive by fleeing to the Shadowfell, I'll also allow the old explanation (... Since I figure super-evil-Batman, AKA Asmodeus, certainly could have hid with them).
while i never really got into 2e darksun as i was busy with other settings i really cant wait to run this to an epic conclusion
if too much background had been included i would have been wary of breaking cannon and my stories would have struggled and while i agree with the classes needed a bit more twisting thats now something my players can do in fact my only real whine is big bugs in the monster book for caravan parts etc and a little more on sutable monsters from the other books
but again thats wizards keeping it open
I call Mega Whiney Troll.
I'll confirm.
And believe me, I know trolls.
I spent last night leafing through the book, and it seems like a lot more custimization than ebberon or forgotten realms had in their first book. Am I reading this right, do the "kits" give an extra encounter power to level 1 characters?
You are correct on both counts, sir, assuming that by "kits" you mean "themes." It is considered by the designers to be a third pillar of character creation, alongside race and class.
Wild Talents also give everyone a cantrip-style at-will.
So it is worthy the money, though I don't know why the prices are so different.
I looked through the books in an Gaming Store (I want them :D), all books together would cost me 96$, on amazon.de 77$ and if I buy them from amazon.com it would cost me only 65$ (50 + shipping).....
You are correct on both counts, sir, assuming that by "kits" you mean "themes." It is considered by the designers to be a third pillar of character creation, alongside race and class.
Wild Talents also give everyone a cantrip-style at-will.
Neat, I wish there were more wild talents and themes, but I suppose they wouldn't be hard to make more of. The only thing I'd say the book is lacking is monsters, but thats only a lack because the creature catalog isn't out yet.
Neat, I wish there were more wild talents and themes, but I suppose they wouldn't be hard to make more of. The only thing I'd say the book is lacking is monsters, but thats only a lack because the creature catalog isn't out yet.
Not out for you maybe but I'm lovin it.
I'm sure we'll see more themes and talents in Dragon. Just today there is a new theme, Escaped Slave, in the slave Dragon article.
really dig what they've done. i for one am greatful they've shed the shackles of some of the old canon stuff and returned to a more open-ended and mysterious setting. there's lots of room for the characters to grow and become an actual part of the history of the world. they give mentions and hints to a lot of the original 2e stuff, but it's just that - hints, hooks, things that the DM can take or leave but don't force anything beyond that. i for one like it that way. as always the production quality of the book is nice too. i really just can't wait for the CC to show up...the anticipation is killing me! i'm also looking forward to all the support for DDI...i have a feeling there'll be no lack of cool adventures and info in the future. yay!
Of course they couldn’t put everything, but they put quite a lot in there. They give a good idea of the setting, they incorporate 4e concepts very well and mention things I thought would have been left out, such as Kalid-Ma (the Sorcerer-Queen [or is it king?]) who got stuck in Ravenloft… even if they don’t say it quite like that, the mention of mists coming at night is a nice touch.
Plus I compared the Catalog with old Compendiums, and they picked the best creatures. The creatures left out are mostly “bleh” at best, aside from a very few exceptions.
My only complaints would be “only 10 wild talents” and tieflings. I’m glad none of my PCs picked one. Oh, also, some of the art, while good, does not have much Dark Sun flair. I’m referring to one of the Minstrel Paragon Paths (can’t remember the name… Arms something…), and a few others who look like generic characters. But the Chapter 6 intro page more than makes up for it IMO (art by Kerem Beyit if memory serves).
Biggest failure of all these campaign worlds: The NPCs are "better" than the players. I've always despised Forgotten Realms because it's so damned crowded. The characters are supposed to shape the world, not just be lackeys caught up in some NPC's life.
I'm thrilled that they erased all the novel-inspired crap that leaked into the first version of this game, and I hope they don't attempt anything so ridiculous again.
Filling a game world with "official events" and details shoots the concept of collaborative story-telling right in the foot. When WOTC produces a product that fills in every little detail about the world, it's like they're telling you: "My imagination is better than yours, this is the way it should be."
I enjoy the missing details. It's our job as players and DMs to fill in those gaps. A game world is supposed to be a starting point for YOUR campaign.
This book is phenomenal. I like that I can read the "ten things about Athas" to someone and they understand exactly what every one of them means. This isn't something I can say about FR and even Eberron, where a bit of lore is needed for context.
The history of Athas is unimportant to 99% of the experience.
And the PCs I've seen people building with the DSCG are phenomenal. Having a theme define your station in life and wild talents for flavors bring characters to life instantly, even at level 1. The one class provided in FR and Eberron doesn't compare to the amount of new flavor you get in themes, class builds, and new weapons.
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
If you don't explain yourself, I call whiney troll.
I've been contributing useful material and endless well thought out submissions to this forum for seven years. I'm not some whiney forum-jumping troll. If I don't have the time to make huge explanations about simple comments, excuse me for balancing full time lucrative work, full time college, and raising a little one. You should watch how you address people you don't even know. Throwing out insults to someone you don't even know makes YOU the troll.
I call Mega Whiney Troll.
having a negative opinion doesn't make me a troll. Again, seven years of contributions and in-depth conversations on this very board regarding this setting and its history preclude me from troll status. Your dumb little insult is a waste of time and space.
With the release of Neverwinter for FR it bodes well for further support...maybe next year of the north...or the valley of dust and fire...or a new section of Athas.
I was dissappointed with the class treatments too. And the races too...elves are jsut elves, dwarves are just dwarves...no description of the elven run or the dwarven focus. I suppose there's room in the magazines for those pieces too though, we'll see.
Biggest failure of all these campaign worlds: The NPCs are "better" than the players. I've always despised Forgotten Realms because it's so damned crowded. The characters are supposed to shape the world, not just be lackeys caught up in some NPC's life.
This is the main reason I grew bored with FR. It really gives you the feel that you are playing in someone's turf (Greenwoods/Salvatores/et al). I prefer Eberron and DS because its more PC centric, and gives room for PC actions to create the setting (not the other way around).
FR is Greenwoods creation and it definitely feels like you are playing on his turf.
As much as I would to hear the writers of Dark Sun and my personal fav, Eberron, wax philosophical and factual on the setting over the course of 200 pages, setting history is essentially masturbatory. It indulges old fans rather than being a constructive force in enticing new fans. You may think what they've done with the setting sucks, but you're already a heavy regular buyer, active on the forums judging by your 819 posts.
History leads to long expositions through Knowledge checks rather than unique adventures and one thing this book does well is give ideas for new mechanics to create setting-appropriate adventures. I love Eberron, and last year on ECG Day I literally ran down the UPS truck when I missed the guy at the doorbell. But the 4E ECG book is way too much history and not enough setting mechanics like political intrigue and Last War battles. Its less Eberron and more, fighting Eberron NPCs in the same traditional environment. Its a palette swap that doesn't help you create a world. The Dark Sun book accomplishes this, or at least comes closer.
I thank you for doing a little research instead of crying 'troll' like some ignorant people have. I have purchased every single DS product in the line, and even bought the 4e one just to show support for the setting, even if I disagree with what they have done. My main points of dislike for the new book are the lack of stats for the SKs and Borys, Rikus and Sadira, and the way they retconned the setting to make magic a function of the absence of gods. Also, the Avangions and Dragons seem WAY underpowered, but that is just the nature of 4e. The alteration of the cosmology to fit into DnD standard also rubbed me wrong. There were an abundance of threads on the old boards where everyone would have huge debates about the hows and whys of Athasian cosmology, and suddenly it is just forced into the same mold as every other setting. I know that is by deliberate design of 4e,and this is one of the main reasons I support 3.5e and the pathfinder RPG.
Again, thanks for the more positive inspiration for a response. Sincerely. It truly bothers me the way some newer members just assume things about people and their posts before really looking into things at all. You have the respect of Terminus Vortexa
I call Mega Whiney Troll.
having a negative opinion doesn't make me a troll. Again, seven years of contributions and in-depth conversations on this very board regarding this setting and its history preclude me from troll status. Your dumb little insult is a waste of time and space.
Then perhaps you shouldn't have phrased your initial post the way you did. You simply came off as a troll. You may as well have said you were throwing it in the trash or something like that.
Because you didn't bother explaining yourself you ended off coming off as a troll. Just accept it. Besides, it's not like you're the only one who has responsibilities to deal with, many of us do and yet still find time to actually express the points we want to make.
I thank you for doing a little research instead of crying 'troll' like some ignorant people have.
You didn't provide a reason to do otherwise.
My main points of dislike for the new book are the lack of stats for the SKs and Borys, Rikus and Sadira,
The SKs will be statted in the Creature Catalog. There's no need for stats for Borys, Rikus, and Sadira, because doing so makes them more important than the PCs.
The alteration of the cosmology to fit into DnD standard also rubbed me wrong.
That was a problem with the original setting as well. The grey was added, yes, but it was added to say "uh, even though this system is dependant upon a rather particular planar cosmology, you can't go there."
The 4e cosmology works better for Dark Sun. Using the shadowfell for the grey actually gives the players a reason to care one bit about the grey beyond it benig that thing that keeps them stuck on Athas. The astral sea is empty (and thus ignorable), except for a bunch of stuff that is going to discourage the players from going there. The feywild is about the size of a few city blocks distributed throughout Athas. The feywild is a prime example of how the setting changed the system cosmology in 4e, and the grey is an example of how the system cosmology changed the setting in 2e.
Even then, they're not forcing you to use the 4e cosmology (except at RPGA events).
This book is phenomenal. I like that I can read the "ten things about Athas" to someone and they understand exactly what every one of them means. This isn't something I can say about FR and even Eberron, where a bit of lore is needed for context.
The history of Athas is unimportant to 99% of the experience.
And the PCs I've seen people building with the DSCG are phenomenal. Having a theme define your station in life and wild talents for flavors bring characters to life instantly, even at level 1. The one class provided in FR and Eberron doesn't compare to the amount of new flavor you get in themes, class builds, and new weapons.
The history becomes more important or less important depending on your campaign. My main campaign ran all over the whole timeline, and without all the support of the vast catalog of the 2e books, it would have been much more difficult, and not nearly so coherent. But I do think that for most brown Age campaigns, history is only as important as the DM causes it to be.
My only complaint is Defling, 1sq (5ft) without the @will which is daily use only (although you can change it with an AP spent). However that's no biggie, that's easily house ruled to Half Spell Level in sqs deflied but no ill effect without the @will, and full spell level in sqs when used. Also Tieflings, but they're a minor race and just omitting them would do it justice. Other than that, I have no complaint about the setting. It's well put, themes work real well and overall it's a great addition to the Dark Sun.
Infact, I am still surprised it's as good as it turned out. Although, it's easy for me to love anything darksun. Although there are some things that really bugged me. Like reading about gianthold and how ogres can be encountered. Draj knights are drake knights now. Dray and Halfgiants are rarely called that, as dragonborn and goliath are the common names. But those are all very minor gripes.
My major complaints are the butchering of the history of athas and the cosmology. The fact that athasian currency is all but extinct and everything is valued in gold in the books. Xaynon of salt view is now a halfelf, which makes me wonder if it was a mistake or if someone was smoking crack the day Xaynon was worked on. Oh and Rakshasa are now a part of the setting, but Deva are not. (think about that one for a moment) While I like Rakshasa, they should have stayed out of DS because Rakshasa outside of eberron are bootleg wannabes.
Gray Death isn't detailed and wotc held out on content so they could sell a few more DDI subscriptions. There is also a serious lack of artwork. What artwork there is, is nice. I especially love the dragonking art. Oh and Pyreen is now an ED, but there's no damn elemental ED and though there IS a ED connected to "the order", the organization (the order) isn't even talked about! (unless I missed it)
Now while I have complaints, I also could spew love all over this thread about what I enjoyed in the DSCG, like the city-state maps, the themes, new builds, the RACES!!! the new weapons and all kinds of other awesomely awesome stuff.
In the end, the DSCG was worth my money. I'm not sure about the CC because the store I went to didn't have one for sale so I couldn't get it yet (DAMN IT JIM!). I'm also a fan of marauders of the dune sea and psionic power talks about how the SKs are both arcane and psionic and how they use psionic enchantments and how they're nearly as powerful as gods. So those books were also worth my money.
I'm gonna go give my DSCG another hug and then mock it for its many flaws.
I thank you for doing a little research instead of crying 'troll' like some ignorant people have. I have purchased every single DS product in the line, and even bought the 4e one just to show support for the setting, even if I disagree with what they have done. My main points of dislike for the new book are the lack of stats for the SKs and Borys, Rikus and Sadira, and the way they retconned the setting to make magic a function of the absence of gods. Also, the Avangions and Dragons seem WAY underpowered, but that is just the nature of 4e. The alteration of the cosmology to fit into DnD standard also rubbed me wrong. There were an abundance of threads on the old boards where everyone would have huge debates about the hows and whys of Athasian cosmology, and suddenly it is just forced into the same mold as every other setting. I know that is by deliberate design of 4e,and this is one of the main reasons I support 3.5e and the pathfinder RPG.
Again, thanks for the more positive inspiration for a response. Sincerely. It truly bothers me the way some newer members just assume things about people and their posts before really looking into things at all. You have the respect of Terminus Vortexa
I think Borys and the Sorcerer Kings are going to pop up in the Creature Catalog.
That would be an interesting band name.
heeeeey wait a MINUTE! there AREN'T any references to the elf run or the dwarven focus! aw man! it would've been cool to get at least a teensy-weensy mention on that stuff cuz it was pretty cool in terms of RP...and even in terms of the dwarven banshees or the elven undead runners. are they listed in the CC? i don't have it yet...maybe the focus and run thing gets a mention in that? i too will hold my book lovingly whilst i mock it as well.
CC's not out yet, and they haven't told us everything that's in there.
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
If you don't explain yourself, I call whiney troll.
I've been contributing useful material and endless well thought out submissions to this forum for seven years. I'm not some whiney forum-jumping troll. If I don't have the time to make huge explanations about simple comments, excuse me for balancing full time lucrative work, full time college, and raising a little one. You should watch how you address people you don't even know. Throwing out insults to someone you don't even know makes YOU the troll.
Your post, from a new member without the sort of credentials that obviously make you a better human being than everyone else (right?) would be called a troll. Regardless of whatever position in an imagined hierarchy, posting like a troll is posting like a troll is posting like a troll. In fact, if your experiance here should mean anything, you should know how to NOT post like a troll.
If you don't have time to post a well thought out post, maybe you should consider whether or not you really have time to post.
Also, it's nothing but pompous to assume that everyone here knows (or cares) who you are. It's the internet, get over it.
The fluff seems to indicate all Dune Runners Wights are elves, but Oath Wights can be other races besides dwarf. The new DDI DS adventure has a non-dwarf Oath Wight.
All SKs are in the Catalog, so is the Dragon, and many of their servants, and so are important low-to-mid level Tyr Region figures (not the Heroes of Tyr) such as Maetan of Lubar (of Prism Pentad fame).
heeeeey wait a MINUTE! there AREN'T any references to the elf run or the dwarven focus! aw man! it would've been cool to get at least a teensy-weensy mention on that stuff cuz it was pretty cool in terms of RP...and even in terms of the dwarven banshees or the elven undead runners. are they listed in the CC? i don't have it yet...maybe the focus and run thing gets a mention in that? i too will hold my book lovingly whilst i mock it as well.
The elf run and dwarven focus are both mentioned in their respective race's sections of the "this is how the races work here" section, but they don't get mechanics for them - they're just fluff.
I've heard from spoiler threads that the Banshee in the Creature Catalogue doesn't specifically mention dwarves, but the art gallery shows what look like a dwarven banshee.
You don't need to post, in detail, why you don't like something. Because on this forum, that is bait for an endless debate. It's enough to know someone doesn't like something. It doesn't matter why unless someone has a need to argue or try and change someone's mind. It's about personal tastes and standards. 4e DS could have been better. Just ask Xanyon the halfelf, or the ogres living in gianthold.
In the Creature Catalog, the Wight Thrall is 4e's version of the Ioramh, Dune Runner Wight is...a Dune Runner, and the Oath Wight is the Dwarven Banshee.
The fluff seems to indicate all Dune Runners Wights are elves, but Oath Wights can be other races besides dwarf. The new DDI DS adventure has a non-dwarf Oath Wight.
All SKs are in the Catalog, so is the Dragon, and many of their servants, and so are important low-to-mid level Tyr Region figures (not the Heroes of Tyr) such as Maetan of Lubar (of Prism Pentad fame).
Willing to give a list of the npcs it does detail? Like Tithian, Pavek or old npcs from adventures or accessory books?
Actually, Term is a pretty awesome dude and he has a right to his opinion, same as anyone else. People just jumped on him because he didn't like the book. Which happens all the time on this forum when someone isn't a fanboy riding the community fanwagon.
You don't need to post, in detail, why you don't like something. Because on this forum, that is bait for an endless debate. It's enough to know someone doesn't like something. It doesn't matter why unless someone has a need to argue or try and change someone's mind. It's about personal tastes and standards. 4e DS could have been better. Just ask Xanyon the halfelf, or the ogres living in gianthold.
4e DS could have been better, but just posting "I like it," or "I don't like it" is a waste of space. Since this is the WotC official board, the people that are likely to hang around here for long are typically the sort of folks that like the work WotC does, so just doing a hit-and-run post of "I don't like it" is very much trollish, just like it would be trollish to go over to a forum for running Dark Sun with Pathfinder and posting "I like it, completely worth every sent, better job than Pathfinder."
My major complaints are the butchering of the history of athas and the cosmology. The fact that athasian currency is all but extinct and everything is valued in gold in the books.
For currency, it's alive and well. Check out "Athasian Coinage" on page 14. It establishes the ceramic piece system, as well as notes that the use of "gold piece" in the equipment section is a simplification so we don't have to constantly convert.
The cosmology and history are still there. The difference is, primarily, that there isn't any longer a huge chapter dedicated to the "secret" history of Athas.
Since this is the WotC official board, the people that are likely to hang around here for long are typically the sort of folks that like the work WotC does, so just doing a hit-and-run post of "I don't like it" is very much trollish, just like it would be trollish to go over to a forum for running Dark Sun with Pathfinder and posting "I like it, completely worth every sent, better job than Pathfinder."
I disagree. Just because this is WotC's forum does not mean criticism cannot be voiced, nor should vigorous criticism be always met with WoTC-apologists ready for battle just because it is criticism. Yeah, more details would be nice.
While de-emphasized, these forums still have boards for non-current rules editions, and long time Dark Sun forum members (like TV) will recall there are been forums for out-of-print settings *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* with no hope for being reprinted again . . . This is the Dark Sun forum, not the 4e-only Dark Sun forum. All of us, fans of all eras of Dark Sun, should be welcome in the Dark Sun forum. Chasing away fans because they haven't jumped on the 4e rules is not a service to the setting.
Since this is the WotC official board, the people that are likely to hang around here for long are typically the sort of folks that like the work WotC does, so just doing a hit-and-run post of "I don't like it" is very much trollish, just like it would be trollish to go over to a forum for running Dark Sun with Pathfinder and posting "I like it, completely worth every sent, better job than Pathfinder."
I disagree. Just because this is WotC's forum does not mean criticism cannot be voiced, nor should vigorous criticism be always met with WoTC-apologists ready for battle just because it is criticism. Yeah, more details would be nice.
While de-emphasized, these forums still have boards for non-current rules editions, and long time Dark Sun forum members (like TV) will recall there are been forums for out-of-print settings *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* with no hope for being reprinted again . . . This is the Dark Sun forum, not the 4e-only Dark Sun forum. All of us, fans of all eras of Dark Sun, should be welcome in the Dark Sun forum. Chasing away fans because they haven't jumped on the 4e rules is not a service to the setting.
On the other hand, if one posts an opinion about anything, on any forum whatsoever, its assumed that one wants to discuss the subject and that means hearing all sides, pro and con. Which means EVERYONE should be prepared to meet with opposite opinions.
Thus the the "4e sucks" crowd shouldn't get into a snit over people disagreeing with them any more than the "4e is great" crowd should. Both sides are going to find people who disagree with them. Insisting that people should give one side or other a pass is...unrealistic at best.
On the other hand, if one posts an opinion about anything, on any forum whatsoever, its assumed that one wants to discuss the subject and that means hearing all sides, pro and con. Which means EVERYONE should be prepared to meet with opposite opinions.
I don't see where this is a case of "on the other hand" from what I said. Hmm.
But are you implying that "opposite opinions" includes calling out someone as a troll if you disagree with them just as a discussion even gets started? Because while the OP was rather brief and lacking details in the first post, calling a long time poster of this forum a troll by enthusiastic newcomers is just what I saw happen. :\ TV wasn't just "disagreed" with. Interesting euphemism for disagreement if so.
This is my first DS product and I think they did a great job with it. The history they left out works perfectly with the flavor they establish. They establish that the history is lost due to the lack of reading and writing, general attempts at just staying alive, and the general attitude of people to care more about day to day then yesterday.
Meh, I'll chalk it all up to the fact that people just want to complain for the sake of complaining.
On the other hand, if one posts an opinion about anything, on any forum whatsoever, its assumed that one wants to discuss the subject and that means hearing all sides, pro and con. Which means EVERYONE should be prepared to meet with opposite opinions.
I don't see where this is a case of "on the other hand" from what I said. Hmm.
But are you implying that "opposite opinions" includes calling out someone as a troll if you disagree with them just as a discussion even gets started? Because while the OP was rather brief and lacking details in the first post, calling a long time poster of this forum a troll by enthusiastic newcomers is just what I saw happen. :\ TV wasn't just "disagreed" with. Interesting euphemism for disagreement if so.
It's "on the other hand" because you said that people who are critical of 4e shouldn't be met with vocal opposition. Yes, they should. So should fans of it.
In short, everybody needs to get over the fact that there are people who don't agree with them.
Really, for a gritty and low fantasy campaign, a'la The Black Company, Dark Sun is damn near perfect.
I've been contributing useful material and endless well thought out submissions to this forum for seven years.
It's too bad you couldn't extend the courtesy this time!
Your initial post was so reactionary and woefully inaccurate, I was (and still am) fairly convinced that you did not actually purchase or read the book, despite your assertion to the contrary.
A post in a Dark Sun forum with no more than a handful of sentences to the effect of "this new Dark Sun sucks, I'm going home" is a troll post, no matter how high your post count or lengthy your history.
Also, good call using your responsibilities as a crutch, as if the rest of us are incapable of handling what you do on a daily basis. Really excellent way to prove you're not a troll. (P.S. this is sarcasm.)
As someone who never played 2E DS, I really like the 4E DS books.
Ditto for me.
I can sum up my feeling for Dark Sun 4e in one-- no, two words: Awe Some!
I wish they'd publish more stuff but I s'pose what we have now is it. I hope there's support for Dark Sun in Dragon/Dungeon at least. That would be enough for me to continue my subscription another year (instead of letting it expire like I plan to).
I should prolly post my suggestion for Dark Sun support on the DDI board. "me 2" with Boondocker ;) just came first.
/\ Art
For currency, it's alive and well. Check out "Athasian Coinage" on page 14. It establishes the ceramic piece system, as well as notes that the use of "gold piece" in the equipment section is a simplification so we don't have to constantly convert.
I don't agree. It's nothing more than a side bar, and reading gp, gp, gp breaks my suspension of disbelief. Athas obviously has lots of gold in 4e.
The cosmology and history are still there. The difference is, primarily, that there isn't any longer a huge chapter dedicated to the "secret" history of Athas.
I completely disagree. The history is a toss up for me at this point. I need to wait for my CC to get here as I heard it contains more fluff on the history. But the cosmology was poorly done. With all the room left, wotc could have gone into some great detail and given us a far superior write up than what we got. Athasian cosmology is as unique and interesting as that of eberron. Instead what we got is actually quite ridiculous. It's very disappointing everytime I read it, in hopes that I discover I actually like it.
But like everything 4e, I'll get used to it. I like most of the dscg, but the cosmology isn't among what I enjoyed.
I like that the cosmology is largely unexplained. Who knows why the Astral Sea is empty? Who knows why the Gods are gone? No one is versed enough in the arcane arts to answer these questions, or they have long been lost to history. The ones powerful enough to try and answer these questions might not even know themselves. Or care enough to bother. Thats a cool thought. Even if they do know, they surely won't be sharing this information.
This theme of Athas' history being lost is a huge theme in my games. Exploring the past, and piecing together fragments that just make this planet even more mysterious. Giving a detailed explanation for all of Athas' history, cosmology, etc, ruins this theme of mystery. The original boxed set had this theme deep in its blood. All the history was written from the perspective of the oral tradition, the Wanderer's musings. Although he was a sage and scholar, who knows if he was correct. The mystery was an important part of the campaign setting
I don't agree. It's nothing more than a side bar, and reading gp, gp, gp breaks my suspension of disbelief. Athas obviously has lots of gold in 4e.
Wait, what? Are you being facetious? It cannot be that fragile.
So, in my game, it's Ceramic Pieces (cp), Silicon Pieces (sp), and Glazed Pieces (gp).
Other possibilities include Stone Pieces and Glass Pieces.
I don't agree. It's nothing more than a side bar, and reading gp, gp, gp breaks my suspension of disbelief. Athas obviously has lots of gold in 4e.
Wait, what? Are you being facetious? It cannot be that fragile.
The exceedingly simple solution which I'll be using in my game is that "gp" stands for "glazed pieces," referring to a special glazing process the ceramics go through to deter counterfeiting.
So, in my game, it's Ceramic Pieces (cp), Silicon Pieces (sp), and Glazed Pieces (gp).
Other possibilities include Stone Pieces and Glass Pieces.I don't agree. It's nothing more than a side bar, and reading gp, gp, gp breaks my suspension of disbelief. Athas obviously has lots of gold in 4e.
Wait, what? Are you being facetious? It cannot be that fragile.
brilliant.
Personally, I find the book having everything I couldn't do myself (the Themes idea, good weapon conversion, all the mechanics, some nice artwork) and what little of the setting they lay out is exactly the amount I need.
I wish they'd publish more stuff but I s'pose what we have now is it. I hope there's support for Dark Sun in Dragon/Dungeon at least. That would be enough for me to continue my subscription another year (instead of letting it expire like I plan to).
I just finished going through my DS books. I purchased them a week ago, but only now had enough time to read a good chunk of the entires. Excellent stuff there. Excellent. There is TONS of fluff... most of it is very suggestive, brief and completely optional - it's all about inspiring the imagination. DMs are allowed to take whatever they'd like from the fluff without ruining the setting at all. Same with the Creature Catalog - there's some fun and exciting monsters with new DS twists. A lot of the CC monsters are elites or solos (example, Id Fiends are level 1 solos... level 1!! I've been dreaming of a level 1 solo forever!). There is some excellent advice for DMs and how to play in a Dark Sun setting. The book complements my old 2nd edition books very well... the two rarely conflict. That means I can easily play 4E or 2nd edition dark sun, or a hybrid of the two.
Art... DDI article suggestions are an excellent idea. Here's my list (and it's long... which is a good thing):
1. My biggest disapointement is the lack of options for Elves and Dwarves. I now expect a DDI article for nomadic Elves and focused Dwarves - something similar to the dragonfear Dragonborn (Dray) would be just perfect. However, without the DDI article, Elves will have to either be houseruled or feel very like fantasy tree-hugging elves with bows and Dwarves are gem-and-mithril-and-plate-mail lovers. Grrr.
2. To continue the above idea, a cannibalistic/savage halfling race build would also be loads of fun and used widely.
3. I'd also like to see additional articles in Dungeon for some of the city-state templars (something to complement the Dragon article... but for DMs). Some of the higher-leveled templars could be included in that, like Tithian. Making these into adventures would be just fine...
4. I would love to see a "Kill Drizz't or Eliminster" fight in Dungeon too... except for the Rikus, Sadira, Neeva and Co. Wanna play that high-level Defiler? Deciding to morph into a Dragon for Epic Tier? Well... here's some Ex-slaves that will take you down and give you second thoughts. Hehehe. Stating the ex-slaves is useless unless there's a reason to fight them.
5. An article or adventure into the Gray or Black would be excellent. Some insightful information could be neat, but having a novel set in the Grey or Black of Dark Sun could take its place.
6. Another articles on Wild Talents. I wanna roll a 1d100 to determine a wild talent randomly. However, this could be interesting excercise for the DnD community instead.
7. More options for defiling. As is stands, I'm not all that excited about specializing a character around dailies and action points. I want more defiling options for at-wills and encounters that I can use without an action point (the bread-and-butter of arcanes casters).
Anyways... those are my main desires.
I think alittle more info on the power groups might have been nice, or more sample campaign arcs like Plane Below/Above
Also, for the benefit of the dude who for some reason thinks it within the bounds of courtesy to flat out accuse me of lying about even buying the book:
There ya go, FlashbackJon.
There are also places where they extend the setting info in ways that demonstrates they really understand the Dark Sun tone. Case in point: the giant silt kraken-god. Not in the original 2e material (unless it was in the novels, which I don't own and haven't read). Brilliantly evocative of the horror that the Silt Sea's depths should encompass.
(On the other hand, the currency thing was a lazy cop-out, and I'm reverting to the 2e currency adjustment mechanism.)
On the other hand, the currency thing was a lazy cop-out, and I'm reverting to the 2e currency adjustment mechanism.
Seconded.
A previous poster put out something similar. I wouldn't mind something along the lines of:
gp=glass pieces
sp=stone pieces (type of stone depends on the region, but each is sculpted and stamped by the respective government - Granite for Nibenay, Soap Stone for Gulg, Limestone for Balic, etc)
cp=ceramic pieces (baked clay, colored differently by government)
bits=1/10 of a ceramic piece
The three above shouldn't be metals, but instead sculpted elements from each region. Each government would carve and color their currencies to prevent forgeries and vandalism. Glass pieces would generally be made of obsidian, mined from the region. Each piece sculpted/carved in a unique style to represent the city-state. The obsidian could also contain natural coloring depending on what other elements are found at the region's mines (cloudy dark, bluish tinge, red veins). Stone pieces would be carves/sculpted from regional stones - Granite for Nibenay, Soap Stone for Gulg, Limestone for Balic, etc. The are generally the size of 2 Euro coin or silver dollar, and may be holed to easily slip onto a necklace or other cord. The Ceramic Pieces are easily mass produced with a mold and baked clay and contains the heads of state pressed into both sides.
CPs don't have to be coin-shaped discs (they are in Balic), but could also be beads (common in Gulg and Draj), square discs (common is Urik and Nibenay and Raam), or flakes and arrowheads (Tyr). Bits are cut-up CPs of different sizes... usually about 1/10th of a Ceramic piece.
"That Inix is my prized animal: 70 glass beads"
"That's three stones worth of grain he ran off with!"
"Here, take a ceramic for your troubles."
"Here's 2 large bits instead of 3 bits for that meat pie"
What do ya think...? Simple enough?
As someone who never played 2E DS, I really like the 4E DS books.
Seconded. My LGS sold out of both the original release *and* the re-release, but got stuck with like five copies of Dragon Kings moldering on the shelf. Way to go, TSR. Under-print the campaign settings and over-print the expansions.
This time around? They had none on the glass countertop where they usually keep about half their stock of new releases, and only two left on the shelf. Now one, unless someone's bought it. Looks like Athas is still a super-popular world.
In other words, water. Athasians might value metals for their rarity, but there's no basis for a currency there -- just not enough metal to go around to make it work.
My plan is to adopt an idea from Dune (you know, just like the Dark Sun designers): ceramic pieces are water counters. You can exchange them at the issuing party's reservoir or well for a fixed amount of water -- probably 1 cp = 1 gallon, but I haven't thought through the specific amounts yet.
I imagine them being pierced with a hole so they can be threaded onto long strings.
The immediate value of money for someone poor or desperate, then, becomes obvious: take the Urik cp to an Urik-owned well and exchange it for water. I also imagine that the coin is ritualistically crushed when it is finally exchanged for its value in water.
This also enables and is supported by the Tyr free-water-ration in a simple way: rather than tracking who's been to which well, they just issue water tokens to the populace.
Also, I doubt they'd crush the water tokens. I could see them being gathered up and returned to a storehouse somewhere for re-issue, but probably not crushed like that. If you crushed your water tokens, you'd have a very high rate of currency replacement per day- close to 60%.
I also envision 'moneychangers' who will trade one city's ceramic pieces for the local currency, and sell foreign currencies to intercity trading groups at a discount from that city's 'local' rates. Which leads to currency speculation and moneychangers as a 'risk absorber' for smaller oasis-based currencies. I could easily see, for instance, the Silver Spring elves issuing a currency for their somewhat stable town -- but because it's inherently less stable than a S-K city state, it's probably valued at less than 1 Silver Spring CP per Urik CP. (And I would imagine all Tyr water currencies plummeted on news of Kalak's death, and have bounced around ever since as various pieces of news have filtered out among the moneychangers.)
In as water-poor a region as the Tablelands, I also assume that most of the entire water supply of a locale is tapped; the rich are those who get enough to supply their needs and store the rest in reservoirs. They can then take out currency loans from the city government using their personal water stores as collateral.
(In the case of an area supplied by a major aquifer, the limit on water-wealth entering per day is more likely a government-imposed limit to keep the water supply viable for another few hundred years.)
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
I have a totally opposite opinion. I think the 4e revision is better than the original. I think there is way more story elements in this book than I can remember in the original box set. I think the developers went way farther than the original box set in setting the city states and sorcerer kings apart. I think the the themes were a stroke of genious, allowing for a more flexible approach to designing characters arround the tropes those themes represent. So I can have a druid gladiator trained to fight in beast form, to thrill the crowd. I like the sorcerer king warlock, that was a nice touch and far more compelling to me thann a "templar class" I do think some things are missing, but that what source books and DDI are for, check the article on thefree slave theme. I can't wait to run my upcoming DarkSun campaign. The 4e revision is far tighter, coherent, flixible than the orginal 2e version. I prefer the 4e version of Dark Sun. That is my 2 cents.
I'm following the posts with interest. Might I suggest someone start a thread devoted to the topic, rather than burying the ideas here? I think the idea merits its own thread ;) (and it'll help avoid knocking this thread off-topic).
I'm following the posts with interest. Might I suggest someone start a thread devoted to the topic, rather than burying the ideas here? I think the idea merits its own thread ;) (and it'll help avoid knocking this thread off-topic).
I'll repost as a new thread tomorrow, when I have time to clean up my explanation of the idea.
I wasn't a big fan of Troy's novels, Tribe of One was better, so leaving out stats for the heroes is moot.
SK stats in the Creature Catalog, another well done product.
The revised set went into history way too much. A history is done much better as hinted at and left open for the DM to create. DS 4e authors got that right. There are places on the web to get the history if you want it and I suspect that we will get a lot more through DnDi.
Character themes, WotC you finally got something right in 4e. Look forward to what you can do in the other settings, I might actually play in them. I will run DS, when I run 4e.
I thought that the currency was rather well done, considering that the heroes should rarely run across a metal piece anyhow. In a normal setting I will be handing out money purses full of ceramic pieces, not metal. Metal should only come into play while exploring haunted ruins of lost civilizations that haven't been easily looted. A few gold pieces should make you a noble and a target for SKs or the Dragon, well perhaps just a greedy Templar. Being a fan of Frank Herbert's work, the water as a base for currency is excellent. I always found it odd that CPs weren't backed by something, but then again neither is the U.S. dollar, I'm joking. In non-industrial level cultures a coin would be worthless if didn't have intrinsic value.
Maybe WotC will actually win an Ennie next year. Props to the authors of 4e DS.
Keith
I'm following the posts with interest. Might I suggest someone start a thread devoted to the topic, rather than burying the ideas here? I think the idea merits its own thread ;) (and it'll help avoid knocking this thread off-topic).
I'll repost as a new thread tomorrow, when I have time to clean up my explanation of the idea.
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Enjoy!
I spent last night leafing through the book, and it seems like a lot more custimization than ebberon or forgotten realms had in their first book. Am I reading this right, do the "kits" give an extra encounter power to level 1 characters?
Yes you gain the extra power, but you choose the others in place of a class power.
I can't believe this. They erased almost everything that fleshed out the setting, made the history ambiguous, the heavy hitters pitiful, and the whole setting just........off. Waste of $40. This one's going on the shelf, and I'm sticking with 3.5 for good. Just my 2 cents
If you don't explain yourself, I call whiney troll.
I've been contributing useful material and endless well thought out submissions to this forum for seven years. I'm not some whiney forum-jumping troll. If I don't have the time to make huge explanations about simple comments, excuse me for balancing full time lucrative work, full time college, and raising a little one. You should watch how you address people you don't even know. Throwing out insults to someone you don't even know makes YOU the troll.
Hey don't worry about it Man. People have a habit of playing the "Troll Card" when they don't agree with something instead of posting a constructive argument or not posting at all.
ATTENTION EVERYONE!!! CALLING SOMEONE OUT THAT YOU "THINK" IS TROLLING IS ACTUALLY TROLLING ACCORDING TO THE COC. SO UNLESS YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO GET ATTENTION JUST REPORT WHAT YOU FEEL IS A PROBLEM.
I'm off to research WotC's account options . . .
Is there a way to block graphics laden signatures? If I have to block all signatures, it is worth sacrificing for . . .
I'm off to research WotC's account options . . .
At the top of the page are preferences. Click it and click the Hide Signatures.
At the top of the page are preferences. Click it and click the Hide Signatures.
There's a drawback though. If you block one (because its annoying) you might miss out on others that actually have useful stuff in 'em (rare I know, but there are a few posters here who have useful sigs).
ATTENTION EVERYONE!!! CALLING SOMEONE OUT THAT YOU "THINK" IS TROLLING IS ACTUALLY TROLLING ACCORDING TO THE COC. SO UNLESS YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO GET ATTENTION JUST REPORT WHAT YOU FEEL IS A PROBLEM.
I call "troll"! And I'm sooo reporting you, too!
(Just kidding! Heh...someone had to; we're all a bunch of smartarses on this board.)
Another thing that I am surprised I didn't realize sooner.... Defiling works almost exactly like Dragon Magic from the earlier editions. Drawing on the life force of creatures was supposed to be the purview of the Dragon Kings (and Ktandeo's Cane). This just doesn't seem like a good move for the setting. The distinction between regular defiling and Dragon Magic was a huge force in the metaplot, and in the actual rules. It was a fundamental component of the motivations of a lot of characters (Farcluun, Tithian, every single SK) and it was one of the things that set the Champions of Rajaat apart from every other defiler, especially in the beginning of the Cleansing Wars. But now, every lowly defiler can tap into the life of those around them, without so much as an obsidian orb?
Yep, 4e is so not like 2e, even the Dark Sun campaign setting is different. I suggest doing the work to make the changes you did not like in 4e Dark Sun or go back and play 2e Dark Sun.
I love the new revision of defiling magic. Defiling becomes a temptation for all arcane spell casters, bards, wizards, worlocks, sorcerers and even sword mages, instead of the shtik of one class like the defiler. It also offers the temptation to those would be perservers a far more dynamic story element than the total seperation of the defiler and preserver classess.
I played the original boxed set and the revised box set (I really liked the psionics system in that supplement). I really enjoyed that experience way back in the 90s. But I am difinitly not as invested as you are into the lore as presented in the myrad of source books and the prism pendad novels. So I just don't miss all the stuff that you are in the 4e version. Although I have played the original Dark Sun and loved it, I feel the 4e version does Dark Sun better.
There's a drawback though. If you block one (because its annoying) you might miss out on others that actually have useful stuff in 'em (rare I know, but there are a few posters here who have useful sigs).
It is more worth it to me to hide everyone to catch the few abusers. I'm already feeling better. *ahhhhhhh* ;)
Another thing that I am surprised I didn't realize sooner.... Defiling works almost exactly like Dragon Magic from the earlier editions. Drawing on the life force of creatures was supposed to be the purview of the Dragon Kings (and Ktandeo's Cane). This just doesn't seem like a good move for the setting. The distinction between regular defiling and Dragon Magic was a huge force in the metaplot, and in the actual rules. It was a fundamental component of the motivations of a lot of characters (Farcluun, Tithian, every single SK) and it was one of the things that set the Champions of Rajaat apart from every other defiler, especially in the beginning of the Cleansing Wars. But now, every lowly defiler can tap into the life of those around them, without so much as an obsidian orb?
I hadn't noticed this, but yea, you're kinda right. That does seem a bit off. Does anyone have a rationalization for this? Cause if not I might want to houserule that for characters to defile they have to carry around a obsidian orb.
Another thing that I am surprised I didn't realize sooner.... Defiling works almost exactly like Dragon Magic from the earlier editions. Drawing on the life force of creatures was supposed to be the purview of the Dragon Kings (and Ktandeo's Cane). This just doesn't seem like a good move for the setting. The distinction between regular defiling and Dragon Magic was a huge force in the metaplot, and in the actual rules. It was a fundamental component of the motivations of a lot of characters (Farcluun, Tithian, every single SK) and it was one of the things that set the Champions of Rajaat apart from every other defiler, especially in the beginning of the Cleansing Wars. But now, every lowly defiler can tap into the life of those around them, without so much as an obsidian orb?
I hadn't noticed this, but yea, you're kinda right. That does seem a bit off. Does anyone have a rationalization for this? Cause if not I might want to houserule that for characters to defile they have to carry around a obsidian orb.
I think this kind of observation really highlights my main beef with the criticism I see raised on 4e defiling.
Not only much of it is done in virtue of some sort of worship for the frankly horrible 2nd ed mechanics (Defiling is a "class"? So you defile once and you're married forever, or you start preserving and you'll never join the dark side? Amazing roleplay potential here, seriously. Plus, defiling gives maluses to *everyone*? Jolly, no mechanical impact save for dragging combats longer without advantaging anyone; etc); more importantly, much of the criticism seems superficial.
Taking this example, one would notice that in fact "petty" initiate defilers can't damage enemies through defiling; and that all the mechanics that concern harming enemies through defiling (including forbidding healing) are part of either epic level feats or the Dragon King ED.
More importantly, if you check the CC, the only creatures that deal damage to enemies while defiling are the SKs.
Dragon magic is there, set in stone in the rules and in the creature design. The fact that basic defiling harms allies is due to balance reasons (in order to avoid making arcane classes too strong) and is rationalized by the fact that, as the book states, while drawing power from enemies requires great power, drawing the life force of allies who don't perceive you as a threat is easier.
Ah well, to each their own, eh?
Every time I see someone wanting defiling to hurt enemies all I can think of is this: . . .
What do you think of when you see someone wanting defiling to hurt allies and not enemies?
What do you think of when you see someone wanting defiling to hurt allies and not enemies?
I like it because it does exactly what I want it to do. It makes the player think twice about using it and if he does overuse it there will be repercussions on the group level.
Oh, and I like the themes. I think this is pretty well-designed actually. The material feels good, frankly.
I started in DnD around the time of 3E launch, so I never experienced the earlier iterations of Dark Sun. That said, I have done a ton of reading in recent months to gain as best an understanding as possible on the old fluff. Some of what I read seemed great, some of it made me hesitant. I decided to give 4E Dark Sun a try, and I'm thrilled that I did.
The new DSCG is amazing, in my opinion. The FRCS/FRPG were lack-luster, in many ways. The Eberron releases were far better, in my opinion, but I didn't like the clear mistakes and disparity in quality that crept in as a result of having two different teams working on the ECG and the EPG. I'm really pleased with the decision to release a single DSCS and an accompanying Creature Catalog. WotC listened to their fans/customers.
Much of what made me reticent to purchase Dark Sun was tied up with the genocidal wars of the past. I like that these elements were included, but were delivered in a small dose. The DSCS acknowledges that this is Athas' history, but also points out that few beyond the SKs themselves know the truth. (How will my PC feel if and when he one day learns the sad truth?) I didn't want the palor of these genocidal wars cast over the entirety of an already grim setting, and I'm relieved that it won't be. I also now feel a little less shackled to canon lore. I'll likely follow canon in most cases, anyway, but I appreciate the effort to avoid heavy-handedness.
I think the new crunch is awesome. We've used several different approaches to "backgrounds" in our homegames, and I think Themes will give us an official way to satisfy that desire for slightly more fluff-flavored mechanics right from 1st level. The new class treatments, gear and the like seem solid and flavorful, as well.
I can't wait to get my hands on the Creature Catalog; though, maybe I should wait before reading it. One of the best things about playing in my first DS campaign will be the newness of it all. I have very limited knowledge of the types of threats and challenges Athas' flora and fauna will present. A complete lack of metagame knowledge will be an exciting change of pace. Hopefully my PC survives it!
...but I think 4e does better justice to dark sun than 2e did, and will be running a dark sun 4e game (as my first experience with 4e).
There is stuff I don't like about the 4e stuff, the way they made half giants to short, and kept the "look" of the generic goliath in the art... They talk about "reskinning" but if they draw them the same as in the other books... it feels like the same skin.
On further consideration though I'm glad they made them medium, and I'm glad they changed the "shape" of the Kreen (I listened to the announcement from GenCon where the example of Centaurs and Ladders was used to explain avoiding "oddly shaped" pc races)
I like that they made the world bigger (as in it takes longer to get from one city state to the next) because it makes it more believable that the cities could have different cultures, and ups the level of environmental danger in the wastelands between and also the importance of oasis and villages.
I also have some minor complaints about for example +2 Cha Acrobatics and Thievery for halflings... but that stuff is easily house ruled to +2 Wis Nature and Athletics (or stealth or whatever makes sense to you)... though I can't seem to figure out how to make the character builder do stuff like that, and so my frustration is more with the character builder than the dark sun 4e setting.
I feel like if they had just not encrypted the data file... I could edit / create my own content and have it formated on the print out like the "official" stuff. I'm sure they didn't do this because they didn't want people printing off "fake" but official looking stuff and taking it to the RPGA games and trying to pass it off as legit... but I understandably only care about my home game, and I pay my subscription fees too, so I think my frustration is valid.