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The Black and Shadow Magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
greyorm
Jul 01, 2010 15:37:07 I've cleaned up and streamlined some thoughts I wrote up years back, around the time the Paizo articles came out in Dragon, on the Black and shadow magic, how they were related, and what that might mean. It's tied together with the setting via various established plot-hooks I thought might provide some adventure potentials.
#2
Pennarin
Jul 01, 2010 15:54:00 Great stuff
#3
FlashbackJon
Jul 01, 2010 16:06:10
Won't the Black be the Shadowfell?

From what I've read of them, it seems like the Grey might actually be a better fit for the Shadowfel. But both of them fit well. I suppose we'll see...
#4
xlorep_darkhelm
Jul 01, 2010 16:50:27 I've actually wondered how the old Athasian cosmology will play out in 4E. My guess would be that the Black and the Gray either will not exist at all, or be just "reskinned" versions of planes defined in 4E. If so, I'd imagine the Gray to actually be more like the Astral Sea (if there are no realms for gods in the Athasian Astral Sea, it would be pretty empty and void-like), while the Shadowfel would be rechristened as the Black.
#5
xlorep_darkhelm
Jul 01, 2010 17:16:36
That is what I think. Like the half-giant using goliath stats, the black will be the shadowfel.

On the astral being renamed the grey, I am not too sure about that one. Maybe the Feywild as a reflection of defiled Athas, will have become the grey.

According to the information we've gotten on Eladrin, no, the Feywild will not be the Gray. Honestly, I think that the Astral Sea (sans gods) fits well within the concept of the Gray. If there are no gods (and god domains) for souls to travel to when they die, they'd maybe get stuck there -- just like with the gray. Spellcasters would use it similar to how the Astral Sea is used in other worlds (for astral travel to quickly jump from one part of the world to another), there wouldn't really be much of a need for people to adventure deep into the Astral Sea (once again, no god realms, so not much of a point to go out into it very far). It is even roughly the right color for it, and a similar description to how the gray is presented in the PP.
#6
xlorep_darkhelm
Jul 01, 2010 17:38:34
Waht do we know about the Feywild? I heard that "something was wrong with it", but that is it.

In the blog post about Eladrin by Rich Baker, the Feywild is briefly described -- it is called the "Lands within the Wind", specifically:

The first step in re-envisioning the eladrin was to think about their homeland, the Feywild. Where do eladrin come from in Athas? We decided that the answer was still the Feywild—but the Feywild isn’t what you might expect. The Feywild is “nature turned up to 11.” In most worlds, that means magical forests, wondrous glades, and so on. In Athas, that means “magical desert.” Think of the mesalands around Sedona, the Painted Desert, or the mysterious Rub’ al Khali of Arabia: A place where humans aren’t meant to go, a place of the genies. The Feywild of Athas is dying, however, and it no longer exists as a continuous, parallel plane. It’s a few scattered pockets that don’t connect to each other; journeying from one Feywild locale to another means returning to Athas to make the trek.

So it isn't the Feywild of other settings, it is something different. No lush, unexploited vegetation here.
Ref: Sticky Thread, "4E Information with Sources", first post, the "For Players" section, about Eladrin.
#7
big_goon
Jul 01, 2010 18:14:18 The Gray as the Astral Sea might make a lot of sense. WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods. It would make sense that a destroyed and 'uninhabitated' Astral Sea exists, in the form of the Gray.

The story of Amoth is pretty good. His domain (I forget what it was called) is now the home to any number of demons, the minions of the Demon Princes who assaulted Amoth's domain. If the remainder of the Astral sea is similar to this... if could have a similar appearance to the Gray... the graveyard of the Astral domain.

This is contrary to the 2nd edition Gray... which is not very well detailed IMO.
#8
big_goon
Jul 01, 2010 18:18:16 Nice story Greyorm.

Very much along the same lines as a background story I'm using. The Gnomes, in their final moments, fled to the "In between" (as masters of shadow magic)... ie the Black and the real world... where they eventually went mad and parished. Nibenay/Gallard followed, in an effort to track them down and cleanse the world of the Gnomes, and almost driven mad in return. His experiences, however, provided him with a renewed respect for nightmares and shadow magic.
#9
Nyarlathotep
Jul 01, 2010 19:56:06
WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods.

I keep hearing that and have never heard a source for it.

#10
Pennarin
Jul 01, 2010 21:19:02 The Astral can generate Dominions based on the wants of those powerful enough that inhabit its space. The Gray was known to bring into being a recreation of a small part of Athas; Sadira recreates the Pristine Tower when she battle the wraiths in the Gray.

They do sound similar. The Gray would be the Astral, a perfectly empty void without gravity or direction, occupied by dead and decaying souls, and anybody entering it with a strong enough will can create its own temporary small-scale Dominion.
#11
Pennarin
Jul 01, 2010 21:19:46
WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods.

I keep hearing that and have never heard a source for it.

Check the Primer, Athas in Seven Sentences, in the sticky.
#12
Duke5150
Jul 01, 2010 21:32:21
The Astral can generate Dominions based on the wants of those powerful enough that inhabit its space. The Gray was known to bring into being a recreation of a small part of Athas; Sadira recreates the Pristine Tower when she battle the wraiths in the Gray.

They do sound similar. The Gray would be the Astral, a perfectly empty void without gravity or direction, occupied by dead and decaying souls, and anybody entering it with a strong enough will can create its own temporary small-scale Dominion.

I actually really like that. Opens up some very neat possibilities.
#13
turlough
Jul 02, 2010 9:21:07 Wow! Some good information here, from the OP's writings, to everyone else!

Thanks!

turlough

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 greyorm Jul 01, 2010 15:37:07	I've cleaned up and streamlined some thoughts I wrote up years back, around the time the Paizo articles came out in Dragon, on the Black and shadow magic, how they were related, and what that might mean. It's tied together with the setting via various established plot-hooks I thought might provide some adventure potentials.
#2 Pennarin Jul 01, 2010 15:54:00	Great stuff
#3 FlashbackJon Jul 01, 2010 16:06:10	Won't the Black be the Shadowfell? From what I've read of them, it seems like the Grey might actually be a better fit for the Shadowfel. But both of them fit well. I suppose we'll see...
#4 xlorep_darkhelm Jul 01, 2010 16:50:27	I've actually wondered how the old Athasian cosmology will play out in 4E. My guess would be that the Black and the Gray either will not exist at all, or be just "reskinned" versions of planes defined in 4E. If so, I'd imagine the Gray to actually be more like the Astral Sea (if there are no realms for gods in the Athasian Astral Sea, it would be pretty empty and void-like), while the Shadowfel would be rechristened as the Black.
#5 xlorep_darkhelm Jul 01, 2010 17:16:36	That is what I think. Like the half-giant using goliath stats, the black will be the shadowfel. On the astral being renamed the grey, I am not too sure about that one. Maybe the Feywild as a reflection of defiled Athas, will have become the grey. According to the information we've gotten on Eladrin, no, the Feywild will not be the Gray. Honestly, I think that the Astral Sea (sans gods) fits well within the concept of the Gray. If there are no gods (and god domains) for souls to travel to when they die, they'd maybe get stuck there -- just like with the gray. Spellcasters would use it similar to how the Astral Sea is used in other worlds (for astral travel to quickly jump from one part of the world to another), there wouldn't really be much of a need for people to adventure deep into the Astral Sea (once again, no god realms, so not much of a point to go out into it very far). It is even roughly the right color for it, and a similar description to how the gray is presented in the PP.
#6 xlorep_darkhelm Jul 01, 2010 17:38:34	Waht do we know about the Feywild? I heard that "something was wrong with it", but that is it. In the blog post about Eladrin by Rich Baker, the Feywild is briefly described -- it is called the "Lands within the Wind", specifically: The first step in re-envisioning the eladrin was to think about their homeland, the Feywild. Where do eladrin come from in Athas? We decided that the answer was still the Feywild—but the Feywild isn’t what you might expect. The Feywild is “nature turned up to 11.” In most worlds, that means magical forests, wondrous glades, and so on. In Athas, that means “magical desert.” Think of the mesalands around Sedona, the Painted Desert, or the mysterious Rub’ al Khali of Arabia: A place where humans aren’t meant to go, a place of the genies. The Feywild of Athas is dying, however, and it no longer exists as a continuous, parallel plane. It’s a few scattered pockets that don’t connect to each other; journeying from one Feywild locale to another means returning to Athas to make the trek. So it isn't the Feywild of other settings, it is something different. No lush, unexploited vegetation here. Ref: Sticky Thread, "4E Information with Sources", first post, the "For Players" section, about Eladrin.
#7 big_goon Jul 01, 2010 18:14:18	The Gray as the Astral Sea might make a lot of sense. WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods. It would make sense that a destroyed and 'uninhabitated' Astral Sea exists, in the form of the Gray. The story of Amoth is pretty good. His domain (I forget what it was called) is now the home to any number of demons, the minions of the Demon Princes who assaulted Amoth's domain. If the remainder of the Astral sea is similar to this... if could have a similar appearance to the Gray... the graveyard of the Astral domain. This is contrary to the 2nd edition Gray... which is not very well detailed IMO.
#8 big_goon Jul 01, 2010 18:18:16	Nice story Greyorm. Very much along the same lines as a background story I'm using. The Gnomes, in their final moments, fled to the "In between" (as masters of shadow magic)... ie the Black and the real world... where they eventually went mad and parished. Nibenay/Gallard followed, in an effort to track them down and cleanse the world of the Gnomes, and almost driven mad in return. His experiences, however, provided him with a renewed respect for nightmares and shadow magic.
#9 Nyarlathotep Jul 01, 2010 19:56:06	WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods. I keep hearing that and have never heard a source for it.
#10 Pennarin Jul 01, 2010 21:19:02	The Astral can generate Dominions based on the wants of those powerful enough that inhabit its space. The Gray was known to bring into being a recreation of a small part of Athas; Sadira recreates the Pristine Tower when she battle the wraiths in the Gray. They do sound similar. The Gray would be the Astral, a perfectly empty void without gravity or direction, occupied by dead and decaying souls, and anybody entering it with a strong enough will can create its own temporary small-scale Dominion.
#11 Pennarin Jul 01, 2010 21:19:46	WotC said that the Primordials won the war against the Gods. I keep hearing that and have never heard a source for it. Check the Primer, Athas in Seven Sentences, in the sticky.
#12 Duke5150 Jul 01, 2010 21:32:21	The Astral can generate Dominions based on the wants of those powerful enough that inhabit its space. The Gray was known to bring into being a recreation of a small part of Athas; Sadira recreates the Pristine Tower when she battle the wraiths in the Gray. They do sound similar. The Gray would be the Astral, a perfectly empty void without gravity or direction, occupied by dead and decaying souls, and anybody entering it with a strong enough will can create its own temporary small-scale Dominion. I actually really like that. Opens up some very neat possibilities.
#13 turlough Jul 02, 2010 9:21:07	Wow! Some good information here, from the OP's writings, to everyone else! Thanks! turlough