It's something you don't really clash with usually because adventure and plot design for Dark Sun tends to be quite different and work within certain internal rules of the setting.
However, the Marauders plotline sort of hints at a more "traditional" kind of plotline. The archetypal "an ancient evil is stirring" plot.
Now, I generally never do that in DS. It doesn't really fit. But the Ul-Athra storyline and concept captivated me. I dug for some really cool artwork. I statter her down even (as a late paragon/early epic Solo with some really cool special rules, if I may say so). I had a quite good story for going on with that.
The something stroke me. The elephant in the living room. Sorry, the Dragon.
Ok, Ul-Athra is resurrected. Unleashed again. Cue the terror. And then... how do I justify the fact that the Dragon doesn't come and eat her face off again?
This could relate to any kind of similar plot. Now, I don't think Athas necessarily needs "ancient evil stirring" plotlines - it can safely survive without - but how do you handle the idea of not making the Dragon become a guardian?
Any opposing power strong enough to change the status quo is automatically an enemy of the Dragon, on top of being a potential enemy of the PCs. The Tyr region is small. He can get anywhere in a day basically, he can best anything that isn't more powerful than him (so fundamentally everything) and... it sort of becomes a catch 22.
So, in your games, how do you justify potentially unbalancing threats flying under the Dragon's radar?
The Tyr region is small.
Not according to the Prism Pentad books, which was written by the co-creator of the actual Dark Sun Setting.
In Amber Enchantress, they find out the Dragon will be coming to Tyr and have over a week (I think closer to 2 weeks) to prepare.
I have no idea who the person your talking about is, but the Dragon doesnt concern himself with affairs of men. The SK's would be the ones that would want any 'human killing monster' dead, because its their neck on the lines if they dont meet the quota. The SK's are powerful enough to kill anything the Dragon could, but they are cowardly and would rather send high powered minion templars after it.
The Tyr region is small.
Not according to the Prism Pentad books, which was written by the co-creator of the actual Dark Sun Setting.
In Amber Enchantress, they find out the Dragon will be coming to Tyr and have over a week (I think closer to 2 weeks) to prepare.
I have no idea who the person your talking about is, but the Dragon doesnt concern himself with affairs of men. The SK's would be the ones that would want any 'human killing monster' dead, because its their neck on the lines if they dont meet the quota. The SK's are powerful enough to kill anything the Dragon could, but they are cowardly and would rather send high powered minion templars after it.
You may want to take notice of the fact that in the Creature Catalogue drake entry "traditional" Dragons are discussed and it's specifically pointed out that a major problem is that the Tyr region is so small and it would barely sustain another dragon in terms of hunting grounds and hoarding interests. It also specifically states that it can only sustain so many powerful personalities.
As for who Ul-Athra is, it's an ancient Primordial from times long lost that used to roam Athas. Essentially a "goddess" of sort. The Dragon killed her back then, and now the metaplot seems to be about bringing her back somehow through artifacts.
As for the Dragon's travel speed, even ruling out magic he could technically cover the distance from two corners of the map in a matter of days by flying.
Sort of like when Godzilla takes on another giant monster, no matter who wins Tokyo loses.
Yes the Dragon comes to eat her/its face but at what cost? If the fight takes place near a city state it's going to be leveled, and afterwords I'd imagine the Dragon's going to be fairly annoyed...
Sort of like when Godzilla takes on another giant monster, no matter who wins Tokyo loses.
Indeed, and that would a lot of fun for me (the DM) to play out... but the players?
I mean, the risk here is that the Dragon becomes a guardian. Now, you seem to suggest that he may prefer to have Ul-Athra run around unchecked than to fight her - that could be a solution, but it would require a lot of work to make it work (sorry for the pun). Why wouldn't he want to kill her now when he did before? And if she can alter the status quo, what benefit is there for the Dragon?
It's a perspective I never really explore with Dark Sun. 2nd edition didn't really tackle. Heck, the only example we have of a "new" faction rising in Dark Sun is Rajaat's return, and the result was the setting imploding.
The core problem here is: what kind of landscape-altering event can you introduce when whatever tries to change the status quo has to deal with the Dragon before having to deal with the PCs?
Indeed, and that would a lot of fun for me (the DM) to play out... but the players?
I mean, the risk here is that the Dragon becomes a guardian. Now, you seem to suggest that he may prefer to have Ul-Athra run around unchecked than to fight her - that could be a solution, but it would require a lot of work to make it work (sorry for the pun). Why wouldn't he want to kill her now when he did before? And if she can alter the status quo, what benefit is there for the Dragon?
It's a perspective I never really explore with Dark Sun. 2nd edition didn't really tackle. Heck, the only example we have of a "new" faction rising in Dark Sun is Rajaat's return, and the result was the setting imploding.
The core problem here is: what kind of landscape-altering event can you introduce when whatever tries to change the status quo has to deal with the Dragon before having to deal with the PCs?
You could use the threat of the Dragon coming to spur the PC's into action. Especially if it does not know where Ul-Athra is you could play up its approach: Rumors and sightings of it moving across the Tyr region, devastated towns and caravans left by its passing etc...
The PC could be in a race to deal with "the event" before the Dragon does thus heading off the destruction it brings.
Ignore it to an extent. Put the emphasis on the player characters.
ayanel also has a good point in that the PC can interact with the events before the dragon does.
The core problem here is: what kind of landscape-altering event can you introduce when whatever tries to change the status quo has to deal with the Dragon before having to deal with the PCs?
An interesting point.
On one hand, the Dragon won't be seen as the milieu's 'protector' if the thing he opposes isn't seen as a threat to have to be protected from. Think a 30th level Avangion, coming to return the world to a land of lush green, and ... Borys bites their face off. Bugger. Thanks, Mr. Protector.
Also, the Dragon is nothing if complacent in his supreme dominance. If a very significant threat were to arrive on Athas, it would make sense that Borys throw something at it other than himself to test it's mettle. Sure, there's the Champions, although these might not be a) overly willing, being somewhat equally complacent themselves, and b) expendable. Unlike a party of Epic-tier PCs. And if, during their early-game investigations that party were to learn there's more to the creature than met the eye, things could get interesting from there.
This could be further complicated if you were talking about an immortal primordial, one that has been killed by the Dragon before, but like the Tarrasque (hint hint) rises again after a few centuries' beauty-sleep. And you just know how them primordials so like to adapt during their time on the naughty step to the thing that last slew them, so that this time around they're extra prepared. And you just know that Borys knows this too ...
What about subterfuge? Logically, Borys must either be ignorant of Oronis, or have a reason to allow an Avangion to exist. Either option allows for scope here that can be extended and applied to this situation. A landscape-changing agent would have done it's homework, and may be sneaking in under the Dragon's radar. The problem with this, of course, is that all a party of goody-two-shoes PCs need to do is tell Borys what they know, and a) result, and b) gratitude. Although your definition of 'gratitude' may differ.
Lastly, the ol' classic distraction. Want to invade Athas? Summon a primordial before you, tell it the Dragon said it was a sissy, and stand clear. Once the dust starts getting kicked up, then go about your business. If this took place far to the south of the Obsidian Plains, or far to the east of Ur Draxa -- or even in the Grey -- even the Dragon could be out of the picture for a while. What if this distractive measure actually started to get the measure of the Dragon? It couldn't/mightn't kill Borys, but t'would make a good plot twist if the PCs chose to go to the Dragon's aid. Especially if they had to wrestle through a few Sorcerer-Kings -- who had immediately jumped at the chance to act, now that their one-time companion was down and out for the count -- to do so. Hey, maybe it was one of them who orchestrated this whole summoned primordial diversion in the first place ..?
In many ways, the Dragon is the protector of Athas. That comes with its own limitations -- if an opponent arrives on the scene that only he can really stand against, he kinda has to. Feel free to use that against him.
I'm not remembering which one right now
... that basically can be used to make the level 10 PHB Divination ritual,
happen everyday for next to nothing in cost.
So the BBEG makes all those happen over and over.
So what do they know?
You know what they know. And it's not infinity.
Sneaky things happen, that even the most Div ritual use, can't find.
Heck someone (or something) might even get a Surprise round on him.
The core problem here is: what kind of landscape-altering event can you introduce when whatever tries to change the status quo has to deal with the Dragon before having to deal with the PCs?
Create a threat which affects interests of the PCs but not those of the Dragon. I don't think the Dragon particularly cares about the politics of the Tyr region, for instance. Perhaps some force seeks to conquer the region only to rule. The Dragon probably doesn't care if an elder brain makes a move to rule the cities, or a primordial devours every creature who leaves the walls of a city, so long as he can still get his slaves.
Any Thoughts?
Why didn't Borys destroy Kurn and Eldaarich after they failed to deliver their yearly Levy?
Why didn't Borys punish Hamanu for destroying Yaramuke, depriving the beast of one more Levy?
The answer, whatever it is for you, is tied in with 'Why didn't Borys long ago proactively destroy all threats to his supremacy?'.
Why didn't Borys kill Dregoth, instead forcing the hand of the other SKs in eliminating him?
Why didn't Borys destroy Kurn and Eldaarich after they failed to deliver their yearly Levy?
Why didn't Borys punish Hamanu for destroying Yaramuke, depriving the beast of one more Levy?
The answer, whatever it is for you, is tied in with 'Why didn't Borys long ago proactively destroy all threats to his supremacy?'.
The most interesting explanation I've seen is that Borys is spending most of his time (and those thousands of slaves a year) locked in a war with some bigger nasty from the Far Realm, and doesn't really have time to pay attention to such trivialities.
Each of the big questions doesn't need the same answer though. Many of these questions are temporally related (especially the big "Why didn't Borys kill Kalak?"). None of the powerful NPCs of Dark Sun are one-dimensional characters, they've got their own internal conflicts. Those internal conflicts are going to make an epic game that much sweeter, IMO.
Why didn't Borys kill Dregoth, instead forcing the hand of the other SKs in eliminating him?
Why didn't Borys destroy Kurn and Eldaarich after they failed to deliver their yearly Levy?
Why didn't Borys punish Hamanu for destroying Yaramuke, depriving the beast of one more Levy?
The answer, whatever it is for you, is tied in with 'Why didn't Borys long ago proactively destroy all threats to his supremacy?'.
The problem is that the answer to those question is, at a very basic level, the same, and it's absolutely sound. Politics.
Destroying Kurn or Eldaarich or punishing Hamanu didn't equal to countering immediate threats. The Dragon could have reaffirmed his power by punishing them but what would he have gained? Hamanu surely pushed his luck but in the end the status quo was mostly preserved. Yaramuke was no more, but Hamanu was still faithful to Borys. Borys was probably quite displeased... or maybe not. Who knows. But after that, things stood the same.
Now with Dregoth you perfectly highlight the essence of the "problem": Dregoth's rise to power would have been a great campaign arc. However, the SKs acted first. No PC was involved.
That's the crux of the problem: evil has won. Evil controls the world. Evil won't allow good to challenge it, but it won't allow other evil to do it either.
It's not like the problem is without solution - we survived it for like 15 years no? Heroic threats may just fly under the radar or never touch the city states. Paragon threats may be considerable enough to warrant caution from the SKs too. Epic threats may be so devastating that waiting to see what the SKs do may be too late. And then there's the entire "working for the SKs" formula too.
It's just that some things are much harder to fit in. Dregoth was a cosmic threat, and the Powers that Be dealt with him swiftly. If he rises again, they'll be on the frontline. If a Primordial awakens and wreak chaos in the region, they will certainly turn their attention there.
In a normal setting, the King does nothing because he's just a dude. He may send troops, but that's that. In DS, the king is an evil tyrannical immortal badass. The "anticorps" of the Athas power structure are just so much stronger and more aggressive than those of a standard setting. It's part of the charm of the setting, but it's definitely an additional layer of complexity in adventure building. A Primordial returning is as straightforward as it can be in a setting like Eberron or Greyhawk; in DS you need to work around the fact that the "ruler" of the land is a nigh invincible solo with an appetite for Primordial flesh. Impossible to work around? No, but more challenging for sure
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