www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/p...
...And Athas is in deep trouble because of it.
Tharizdun does have influence in Dark Sun, canon. Considering he is 4e's Azathoth, DS is D&D's Conan, and Conan the Barbarian is actually a part of the Cthulhu mythos, this all does work.
If you're going to introduce a god, why introduce the single least interesting one?
Why not? I think a "Chained God" is the perfect deity for a world like Athas. Tharizdun's fate always reminds me of the Chained God of the epic Malazan series. For Dark Sun, we could have Tharizdun be the only god to have survived the Dawn Wars, an over-deity whose power was so great that the primordials could only imprison him in a shattered and tortured state. Eons spent in such a painful state could have driven it mad and vengeful, and now finally stirs in his prison. And the recent Abyssal Plague event that is described in the books could be the blood of the Chained God weeping from his still open wounds, poisoning the world and corrupting creatures to his dark purpose.
Athas is closer to the setting of Malazan than any other D&D setting, and the authors' inspirations come from D&D itself. Malazan is a setting of Ascendant mortals vying for power with gods both primordial and young. Dark Sun already has god-like Sorcerer-Kings who were mortals before their Ascendency.
What about the Primordials?
What about the Demon Princes or the Archdevils?
What about the Sorcerer-Kings or the Dragon Kings?
There still is no God... not in my interpretation of DS anyway...
Personally, I don't think 4e's gods are proper deities from a theological perspective, but demiurges and Gnostic archons. The primordials are older and appear to be more responsible for the creation of the cosmos than the astral sea's gods. When considering how to fit Zoroastrianism into 4e, I found that it took less work for Ormazd (God) to create the world through the primordials, and then have Ahriman (Satan) corrupt the world with his "gods." Both Zoroastrianism and Gnosticism would feature humanity as the fractured remains of the primordial man (Gayomart or Adam), who the "gods" trapped in the world as we understand it. That Zoroastrianism features the Devas as Ahriman's servants, that Aeshma Deva (who becomes Ashmedei in Hebrew, then Asmodeus in Latin) is one of Ahriman's aspects, that Zoroastrian priests were called Magi (where we get the word Magic), and that most Gnostics incorporated varying degrees of ritual magic into their religion reinforces this interpretation.
The theology of 2e DS's fire priests were pretty much taken from Neoplatonism influenced by Zoroastrianism and Heraclitus. If the concept of an Avangion was explained to the alchemist Paracelsus, he would conclude that you were talking about Jesus ("a person who is world-soul manifest to heal everything? Yeah, that's Jesus.") From a theological perspective, Dark Sun has had divinity in it; it was just not labelled as such.
Since 4e connects the divine power source with the astral sea's gods, I mainly brought this up because it justifies my past consideration of allowing a player to use the divine power source if the character worships Tharizdun. There are plenty of possibilities here:
-Perhaps the divine character believes he is just another elemental priest, serving the elemental eye
-Perhaps the character believes Athas is beyond healing and too terrible to deserve to exist
-Perhaps Ia Fthagn Tharizdun
-Perhaps the character realizes that bringing Tharizdun into the world would force the primordials who do not want him back to become more active in the world, destroying the Sorcerer-Kings in the process
He's been The Elder Evil, and just one of the Elder Evils.
He's been less than a god, demi-god, lesser and greater god.
He might not exist.
One of the Slaad lords (perhaps Ygorl) is/was in charge of Entropy.
4e has Slaads. Maybe there's a Lord hanging around somewhere.
I don't think a consistant or established canon can be had.
It is possible that entropy doesn't exist as a real concept in 4e Dark Sun.
Or there isn't any Personification of the power of entropy.
Or there's this thing that seems to be like Tharizdun and previous versions.
Who knows ?!
" ... Perhaps the character realizes that bringing Tharizdun into the world would force the primordials who do not want him back to become more active in the world, destroying the Sorcerer-Kings in the process ... "
Or this. I like it.
**
The link has this quote:
" ... But power is never so transitory as it is under the blood red sun of Athas. ... "
Bolding is mine.
If you want a chained god, how about the god of slavery instead? Even more fit to the setting, still evil, already has fluff to explain his not-actually-dying, and actually remotely interesting!
You'd have to read the Malazan books to understand how awesome the Chained God concept is. And I gotta be honest, a god of slavery sounds utterly boring and out of place even for Athas. Why is the god of slavery the only surviving deity when other more prominent and relevant deities died in the war vs primordials? In fact, why did the primordials spare this god of slavery at all? Slavery is a portfolio that falls under the broader Tyranny domain, which many evil gods of Law/Order preside over. I can't see a religion built around just slavery, unless it's a god of communism.
The Chained God doesn't have to be Tharizdun. Keep his real name and divine will unknowable except to break free and end the world. Hell, call him the Ineffable, Lord of the Wastes, whatever and have him be bound within the innermost sphere of Phyrexia ... errmm BAATOR!
Dieties add nothing to the setting.
Fixed that for you.
If you're going to introduce a god, why introduce the single least interesting one?
Why not? I think a "Chained God" is the perfect deity for a world like Athas. Tharizdun's fate always reminds me of the Chained God of the epic Malazan series. For Dark Sun, we could have Tharizdun be the only god to have survived the Dawn Wars, an over-deity whose power was so great that the primordials could only imprison him in a shattered and tortured state. Eons spent in such a painful state could have driven it mad and vengeful, and now finally stirs in his prison. And the recent Abyssal Plague event that is described in the books could be the blood of the Chained God weeping from his still open wounds, poisoning the world and corrupting creatures to his dark purpose.
Straight from my homebrew...
Given: a PC who wants to take Demigod from L1. When he reaches Paragon, introduce a recurring villian - a Vestige Pact Warlock who has taken the God Fragment PP. This NPC has found a Divine relic of great power. The owner could use it to make himself ... well, the characters have a hard time finding words for what they could become; after all, there haven't been any gods in Athas since before living memory - even the sorcerer-kings'.
Besides the personal villian, all the sorcerer-kings are going to want this artifact, for reasons that should be obvious. So he may not actually possess it for very long - just long enough to bind the vestige as the appropriate PP power. The DM and players will have to work together to make it accessible again just as their characters top out of L19.
Need I point out that most of Epic Tier will be spent trying to hide this thing where nobody else can find it, and fighting the would-be thieves who come looking for it (probably including a sorcerer-king or two in person)? The Dragon of Tyr might well put in an appearance, too. The PC's L30 climax would be using the artifact on himself to become the first of Athas' new gods.
And now the real fun begins - he need allies FAST and he needs to keep Primordials off his back plus deal with any sorcerer-kings who finish their own transmogrification and try to take out the interloper/newcomer. He needs a home, too - and the material world is usually not the location of choice; can he open up the Astral Sea?
Dieties add nothing to the setting.
Fixed that for you.
Gotta agree. So much more can be written about the setting without dragging deities into it.
Dieties add nothing to the setting.
Fixed that for you.
Gotta agree. So much more can be written about the setting without dragging deities into it.
I agree.
Just like if I watched any movie/read any book where everyone was going on about XYZ being extinct, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if we saw just one XYZ before it was all said and done.
1. Gods and god-like beings tend to dominate the scene. This is true in history, in myth, in 4e edition core, in Forgotten Realms, etc. For a game (4e) that's supposed to be all about the players and the actions they take, why are we concerning ourselves with beings that merely pull the strings behind the scenes?
2. Dark Sun emphasizes mortals making mortal decisions. Gods and god-like beings have the power to pronounce all the ills of the world solved with the snap of their fingers. Mortals, on the other hand, have to deal with: a power source that is responsible for the destruction of water and the life of the planet; evil-conniving monarchs; nasty beasts; starving plants; corrupt militaries and corrupt police forces; finding your next meal or drink; earthquakes; Tyr-storms; slavery; nobles; broken swords; poisons; diseases; etc... stuff you see in the news every daily. Keep is real, man!
3. Dark Sun is one plane, one world, the last world... it's all you get. The introduction of gods and god-like beings means there might be something 'out there'. A heaven. An astral sea. Another world to restart on. But that removes the motivation for players to 'save the planet' (or conversely, 'grab what you can'). There are no second chances - and it's all going down hill. Eke a living, learn to cope, and turn the tables on the enemy.
4. The consequences are 'real'. Gods and god-like beings tend to be blind to the consequences of their actions and see mortals as mere tools. What do Gods care if the world is destroyed? Can Gods even be 'killed'? Mortals, on the other hand, have to consider the risks and consequences of action. Why don't you ask Dregoth, Kalid-Ma, Kalak, Rajaat, etc about risks... all the Sorcerer-Kings (and the Dragon) have made many bad choices in their life and now live with the consequences.
... there's more I'm sure.
Anyways... all this talk about the God of Slaves or the Chained God being perfect for Athas doesn't make any sense in my books.
1. Gods and god-like beings tend to dominate the scene. This is true in history, in myth, in 4e edition core, in Forgotten Realms, etc. For a game (4e) that's supposed to be all about the players and the actions they take, why are we concerning ourselves with beings that merely pull the strings behind the scenes?
This is not necessarily true. Eberron is a prime example of whether deities exist at all or if mortals are making it up as they go. Eberron's belief systems are more in line with the real world than any other setting in that the gods' very existence are questioned as they have never appeared or let their presence known. The only divine entity that has a "living" presence is the Silver Flame, and even there it's not really a cosmic, god-like being but grounded in the mortal plane of existence and fueled by souls of couatls.
Athas has primal/primordial spirits that are sentient and active within the world. So why couldn't there have been gods at one point in Athasian history? I don't see the difference between primordial elements granting spells/powers and divine granting power at all. ie that sun cleric from the Prism Pentad was ordained by the sun itself, and those undead paladins (Crimson something or other) definitely had divine sourced power. So who's to say that there isn't some divine being somewhere in Dark Sun. He/she/it could be trapped, imprisoned, dormant with no one the wiser. Rajaat is the closest to this as they come.
What's more outrageous, halfling biomantic lifeshapers and telepathic dolphins or gods or god-like beings who actually grant power to their worshipers/minions? I'll take the gods over the silly Yuzhan Vong wannabes and psychic Flippers.
This is not necessarily true. Eberron is a prime example of whether deities exist at all or if mortals are making it up as they go. Eberron's belief systems are more in line with the real world than any other setting in that the gods' very existence are questioned as they have never appeared or let their presence known. The only divine entity that has a "living" presence is the Silver Flame, and even there it's not really a cosmic, god-like being but grounded in the mortal plane of existence and fueled by souls of couatls.
I really don't know anything about Eberron (except that my friends keep saying it's a cool setting).
Does Eberron have god-like beings or not? Would characters ever meet or interact or engage with said beings? From the way you're explaining it, it doesn't sound like there are God-like beings except in name only (which is totally different than the Chained God or the 4e pantheon).
When I said gods or god-like beings, I meant more of the 'substantial' individials that perform miracles, cause earthquakes and forge dwarven races. You know... like the Chained God, or Shadowthrone, or The Rope, or the Oponn twins.
There are many things you could do with this. Have the PCs discover that a god still lives and is imprisoned in the Elemental Chaos. They may devote themselves to freeing this god and bringing at least a sliver of divinity back to the world. Or you can play him up as a great evil that threatens to renwew the dawn war. Or many other things.
Just because one god exists doesn't mean that you're going to have clerics/invokers/paladins/etc running around all over Athas.
And yes, Eberron has many god-like beings, although they generally operate on a much smaller scale than D&D deities.
There are many things you could do with this. Have the PCs discover that a god still lives and is imprisoned in the Elemental Chaos. They may devote themselves to freeing this god and bringing at least a sliver of divinity back to the world. Or you can play him up as a great evil that threatens to renwew the dawn war. Or many other things.
Why is "bringing at least a sliver of divinity back to the world" a good thing?
There are many things you could do with this. Have the PCs discover that a god still lives and is imprisoned in the Elemental Chaos. They may devote themselves to freeing this god and bringing at least a sliver of divinity back to the world. Or you can play him up as a great evil that threatens to renwew the dawn war. Or many other things.
Why is "bringing at least a sliver of divinity back to the world" a good thing?
From the point of view of PCs (or NPCs) who live in the Dark Sun world, the existence of greater power can bring hope to such a crapsack world.
If they know about the Primordial/God conflict and how it contributed to the current state of the world, they may associate the return of the gods with a return to the way things used to be. If not that, then the idea of a higher power could suggest that nobles, Sorcerer Kings, and other authorities have someone that even *they* must answer to. Finally, the potential for divine retribution and ultimate justice.
If they discover the gift of divine magic, it's yet another tool in the arsenal that can be used against the powers that be. Divine magic in particular tends to focus more on healing and revitalizing than Primal, Arcane, or Psionic, so it could hold a lot of appeal in a world where the simple act of surviving is so much of a struggle.
The characters in question don't have to know that the Chained God is himself, evil, merely that he is chained. For all they know, he could be the greatest of gods- so great that he couldn't be trully destroyed and had to be imprisoned as a result. The abyss is his holding cell and demons are his wardens.
And maybe there's some element of truth. Even if the god is now evil, he might not have always been so. He could have turned to his current state due to overwhelming levels of anger and pain given his current situaion. Perhaps he can be healed/redeemed ( what with the healing of the world being such a common theme in the setting).
People in our own world make up deities all the time. I'm sure that if someone learned of the existence of an actual one somewhere, and learned they had the power to free it, someone would try.
There are ways one can differentiate Rajaat from the Chained God, especially since Rajaat didn't get a ton of elaboration in the 4E Dark Sun book.
For one thing, Rajaat, while powerful, is not a god with the potential to have a dominion, cast blessings/curses on would be followers, generate his own power source, etc. It was the deposition of the gods that allowed defiling in the first place (according to the 4e sidebar that also mentions Rajaat). That makes Rajaat more of a regional threat like the other Dragon Kings or the Dragon, whereas the freeing of the Chained God can potentially rearrange the way the cosmos functions.
The nature of their prisons also differ. Rajaat is bound in "a place of nothingness outside the world". That could be off beyond the Tabelands, in the Gray, in what remains of the Feywild, etc. Meanwhile the Chained God is in the Abyss/Elemental Chaos.
Their manifestations in the world can be different too. Rajaat, not being a god and all, seems fairly limited by his imprisonment and unable to really influence the rest of the world. The Chained God, while not at his full power, is still an entity capable of commanding demons, manipulating the Primordials, and spawning cults.
Or maybe combine the two. Rajaat was actually one of the Chain God's greatest Exarchs. When the god fell and was imprisoned by the Primordials, Rajaat continued his work on the mortal world, but grew corrupted as well. He followed his former lord by being banished into the Abyss and they're now bound together.
I just feel that there are much better plot devices that could have been tapped before pulling in Tharizdun.
What I'm trying to say, however, is that the existing Dark Sun universe has so little room for a Divine intervention. Nothing you wrote pertains to the existing principles of Dark Sun: the brutality of the setting, the Sorcerer Kings, the defilers, the slaves - all those wonderful and exciting things we love/loath about Dark Sun.
By introducing such a paradigm shift to the Dark Sun universe, it feels like you're making a lot of work for yourself - without reaping the benefits of the setting.
What about all these questions: What about the existing False Gods... are they actually real? What are the attitudes of the SKs towards Gods (since they'll probably be overwhelmingly jealous of such power)? What about the Dragon... would he tolerate somebody with power equal to him? Would Dregoth suddenly become a member of the House of Chains? How would Athasians react to a new Divine power source? How about the Gray, the Black and the dead that are houses there? Why wouldn't the SKs just pack up and leave to the rest of the cosmos and leave the rest of us to our rates?
It's not that Dark Sun couldn't use Gods... it's that Dark Sun doesn't NEED Gods. It's fun without them - so why bother adding all the overhead involved with importing new rules, new regulations, new factions, new classes, new everything else... ?
Having him imprisoned is just how you can approach the idea of a god in Dark Sun without giving him the full powers and influence of a god- which would generally contradict the way that Dark Sun has operated up until now.
Yes, there's a lot they could have written about other than him, but like I mentioned earlier, it's not at all surprising that in a world where missing gods is such a prominent aspect, someone would address the idea of missing gods.
Tharizdun works well in other "traditional" settings but not in DS. If the story was centered on the return of some lost Athasian centric deity I think I would buy into it more.
Introducing Tharizdun comes off as being farfetched (i.e Han Solo piloting the USS Enterprise). Its almost like writing a DS story in which Drizzt is thrown thru a magic portal thrusting him from Toril to Athas. Stuff like that hurts the integrity of the setting.
First of all, the existence of gods is a total mystery as it was never really fully addressed. Where are the gods? What happened to them if they even existed at all? If arcane magic was a foreign concept that never even existed at all before Rajaat but now is being abused daily, who's to say divine magic cannot be rediscovered? Seriously, all of this, "NO OMG NO GODS ON ATHAS CUZ THEY DON'T FIT!" attitude is knee-jerk reactions from adamant fundamentalist ADD fans. Introducing the divine into Athas will not hurt its integrity or flavor.
We talked about Malazan and how it could fit Athas. Anyone remember the the Whirlwind and its priestess the Sha'ik? Another perfect example of how a primal spirit of the desert or cursed mortal soul ascending to a quasi-divine state of being seeking power and becoming whole. Another cool concept for Athas.
The boxed set says "Athas is a world without deities." Doesn't say there weren't either. Even if gods never existed at all, there should be primordial beings or maybe even divine ones that represent the elements the priests of Athas worship.
Then the accessories came along and introduced lifeshaping halflings, a blue age with talking dolphins, and other obnoxious silliness. They made these halflings into some god-like beings who created the other races and that all the Green Age races all came from a common halfling ancestor. So now not only did the haflings discover the Force, but they also were the Yuuzhan Vong. I wouldn't be surprised if Ral and Guthay were both sentient "planetoids" at this point.
Edit - It would be hilarious if there were gods in the past but their worshipers drained their gods' life for every divine spell cast. HAHA! Kind of reminds me of Iron Kingdoms. Divine defilers would be awesome.
Tharizdun is D&D's Azathoth.
Dark sun is D&D's Conan setting.
The Conan stories are set in a era of the Cthulhu Mythos.
Azathoth is a part of the Cthulhu Mythos.
Ergo, it isn't required, but it does work. Better than Tharizdun in a Tolkenesque setting. It reinforces the theme "Athas is bad, but leaving it isn't gonna help you."
For my home DS game, I'm allowing the players to play with an artifact that is the last remenant of defeated gods. Esentially, My players will decide if they want deities or not. and it may not be a good thing for them.
the way I see it is there is a careful balance of power in DS, and introducing a god with out a plan for it is foolish. as foolish as sonic guns defeating the padisha emporer.
Seriously though, it seems less like the chained god is alive in DS. More like the chaos seed is breaching the universes/planes/whatever realms and causing trouble even beyond chained god's control. I didn't (and won't) read the book, so I'm probably wrong, but I choose to see it as just trying to give another story to tell.
But I think Introducing a god with out respect for the setting, and with out a good reason is stupid. A chaos seed could easily be the invention of a SK or a far realm power, or even a primordial.
Personally, I don't like adding factions for factions sake.
Anyway, the point I guess I'm trying to make is that directly porting over another settings god comes off as being kind of cheesy. Its along the lines of having Elminster coming to the Table Lands to square off with Nibenay, or the Dragon of Tyr going to Greyhawk to do battle with Bigby.
Regardless of gods ever existing or not, if they did, at least let them be unique with Athasian ties and not plugged in from another setting.
But I think Introducing a god with out respect for the setting, and with out a good reason is stupid.
Exactly. Its not so much the fact of adding divine to the setting, but how its being done.
His name is sufficiently exotic sounding, his themes (madness, decay, psionic/abberations), and even his symbols (including a ziggurat) are all appropriate for the Dark Sun setting. Also, as Ian.Thompson pointed out, it makes sense in a meta-context, as both Dark Sun and Tharizdun seem to be more heavily influenced by the same bodies of work.
Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut can be brought over to Athas in order to take down the Borys and the other SKs. Them being core and unique dragons and all that, it would be a great fit for the setting.
Isn't that hitting a little close to Dragonlance? Krynn also had Dragon Overlords (during the 5th Age right before the War of Souls) who were actualy interloper dragons from another world.
The idea has merit, don't get me wrong. It has potential for great stories, especially when you tie it in to Dregoth's recent tampering with planar magic and exploring worlds beyond The Planar Gate (mirror artifact from the Green Age). It could be that Tiamat was attracted to the planar disturbances Dregoth created during his first ventures out of Athas and sent one of her aspects or exarchs powerful enough to investigate and exploit. Tiamat's interest in turn attracts Bahamut's interest and things snowball from there. Another idea is to introduce the great Dragons that invaded Krynn. Malystryx and her ilk were described as interlopers from another world so maybe some of those dragons can invade Athas. These dragons had the special ability to devour mortal souls, especially during the 5th Age when Krynn was cut off from the gods and the afterlife. Athas is similar in that the dead congregate in the Gray with no where else to go, ripe for the picking I say.
Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut can be brought over to Athas in order to take down the Borys and the other SKs. Them being core and unique dragons and all that, it would be a great fit for the setting.
This is exactly what I was talking about too. I mean, Where does it end. If Thariz-whatever can come over, why can't any other god. Core or not, Athas has a very careful balance of power. the SK's are supposed to be the tops, and The Dragon is, and IMO needs to be, the most powerful thing in their whole world.
On principle, I have no issue with the inclusion, but in practice it reduces Dark sun to dusty greyhawk with less metal. Whcih is not what I like about Dark Sun.
That being said, I don't think this book spells the end of things. It was an authors attempt to further the impact of the abyssal plague, and I don't fault him for that. I can just tell you that book doesn't happen in my Dark sun. At least not that way.
"Using the Dark Lens to focuse their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformation of the sorcercer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast."
The chapter goes on saying this magic was imbued mostly on the SK's templars but we know that such magic proliferated beyond their jursidiction.
This brings new insight into the nature of power sources in Dark Sun. In the Blue age, primal magic was the only source of power. Psionics were introduced in the Green Age, with arcane magic heralding its end and the beginning of the current Age which also allowed elemental magic to become more influential. Necromantic (shadow) magic is a fairly recent power source that is pretty much isolated to the Obsidian Plains region (Giustenal & Kalidnay as well), which I think is attributed to conduits into the Gray. I think if someone can create conduits into the Astral Sea can bring about true divine magic in Athas. This could probably be accomplished by epic destinies and epic rituals. Thoughts, comments, etc?
that it's destriuction could cause the power source to collapse?
No. Whatever Borys did with the Dark Lens is permanent. Its destruction won't get rid of the conduits. But the quoted passage does suggest that the Sorcerer-Kings are the conduits to elemental priestly magic themselves. Perhaps if they all die, then those conduits will collapse and elemental magic revert to its lesser form or w/e. This is all conjecture of course.
Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut can be brought over to Athas in order to take down the Borys and the other SKs. Them being core and unique dragons and all that, it would be a great fit for the setting.
This is exactly what I was talking about too. I mean, Where does it end. If Thariz-whatever can come over, why can't any other god. Core or not, Athas has a very careful balance of power. the SK's are supposed to be the tops, and The Dragon is, and IMO needs to be, the most powerful thing in their whole world.
First off, the Primordials are at the top of the food chain in Dark Sun. More powerful than both the Dragon and the SK's.
Furthermore, the addition of new deities "ends" when the gods and stories in question are not in line with the themes and concepts of Athas.
Tharizdun differs from just having Bahamaut and Tiamat in that Tharizdun is currently sealed away and forgotten by most mortals. He is a tragic deity, while the others are not. He has strong ties to psionics and the elements where the others do not. Tharizdun can't even move around within his respective sphere- unlike Bahamut and Tiamat. He does not give overt commands to followers like Bahamut and Tiamat.
It's not like Tahrizdun is going to rise and do battle with the SKs. He's not going to have temples all over the place. He's not going to supplant other powers. Ultimately, his presence isn't inspirational, it's depressing. One last god exists, but rather than some glorious super powerful being, it's a broken and insane entity laying trapped in the deepest darkest abyss. Rather than redemption, it now yearns only for destruction. Something that was once vibrant and glorious has been corrupted and ruined.
The idea fits Dark Sun to a "T", and Tharizdun is the only deity that fulfills that particular role in any D&D mythos. It does it without filling the Astral Sea full of meddlesome deities. It does it without introducing Clerics and Paladins as player characters.
Basically, it's a plot of intrigue to find the larger evils in a montage of smaller evils.
Also I'm giving my PC's the option to become/resurrect a god, and add a faction back to help preserve the world.
But simply adding a god for god's sake is not my bag. it's an entire campaign to see the return of even one divine being, and even then, what is one god in a world where the primordials have destroyed all of the infrastructure of the astral realm.
It'd be like getting a solar car in the book of eli. careful application is mandatory.
It'd be like getting a solar car in the book of eli. careful application is mandatory.
That movie is awesome. Gary Oldman was basically a SK trying to become a "god" using the Bible. haha
It would be hilarious if the cannibalistic halflings of Athas had the "shakes". :P
Maybe Tiamat and Bahamut can be brought over to Athas in order to take down the Borys and the other SKs. Them being core and unique dragons and all that, it would be a great fit for the setting.
This is exactly what I was talking about too. I mean, Where does it end. If Thariz-whatever can come over, why can't any other god. Core or not, Athas has a very careful balance of power. the SK's are supposed to be the tops, and The Dragon is, and IMO needs to be, the most powerful thing in their whole world.
First off, the Primordials are at the top of the food chain in Dark Sun. More powerful than both the Dragon and the SK's.
Furthermore, the addition of new deities "ends" when the gods and stories in question are not in line with the themes and concepts of Athas.
Tharizdun differs from just having Bahamaut and Tiamat in that Tharizdun is currently sealed away and forgotten by most mortals. He is a tragic deity, while the others are not. He has strong ties to psionics and the elements where the others do not. Tharizdun can't even move around within his respective sphere- unlike Bahamut and Tiamat. He does not give overt commands to followers like Bahamut and Tiamat.
It's not like Tahrizdun is going to rise and do battle with the SKs. He's not going to have temples all over the place. He's not going to supplant other powers. Ultimately, his presence isn't inspirational, it's depressing. One last god exists, but rather than some glorious super powerful being, it's a broken and insane entity laying trapped in the deepest darkest abyss. Rather than redemption, it now yearns only for destruction. Something that was once vibrant and glorious has been corrupted and ruined.
The idea fits Dark Sun to a "T", and Tharizdun is the only deity that fulfills that particular role in any D&D mythos. It does it without filling the Astral Sea full of meddlesome deities. It does it without introducing Clerics and Paladins as player characters.
I have no particular objections, save these minor quibles.
1. If the primordials are so great, then why haven't they destroyed creation yet (I mean the material plane). From what I've seen of stated primordials, the Dragon is just tops. Know, I'm not overly familiar with the old lore and mythos (the prism pentad novels, right), nor the later boxed sets, but if the primordials are the best then my suspicion is that the material plane would have been washed away in elemental chaos long ago.
I'm not saying your wrong, you could be very right, but I'm not buying the logic of that set up with out a further plot point, you know?
2. The only problem with tharizdun thematically is that he is a GOD. Something that simply shouldn't exist... It breaks the virisimulatude of the world. It's like dropping an M21 in the world. It may be thematic to have a boom stick in a post apocalyptic setting, but that doesn't mean that the M21 is appropriate. Army of Darkness I'm looking your way.
But Like I said, it's not WRONG. nothing is wrong, it's a story, but I feel like taking a deity from one cosmology and placing him , not only in a different cosmology, but in a world without gods entirely just to tell a story of doom may be...excessive? unnecisary? Are there no established characters or conceits in Dark Sun that could pull it off? Couldn't it have been Tharizdun's whispers that drive a Sorceror King crazy and attempt to create a weapon that turns out to be a chaos seed and doom another of the city states to ruin if not saved in time?
To me it's all about the approach, and adding in Tharizdun is heavy handed IMO. But like I said, that makes it neither bad nor wrong.
1. If the primordials are so great, then why haven't they destroyed creation yet (I mean the material plane). From what I've seen of stated primordials, the Dragon is just tops. Know, I'm not overly familiar with the old lore and mythos (the prism pentad novels, right), nor the later boxed sets, but if the primordials are the best then my suspicion is that the material plane would have been washed away in elemental chaos long ago.
I'm not saying your wrong, you could be very right, but I'm not buying the logic of that set up with out a further plot point, you know?
Who says all primordials are created equal in power and temperament? Primordials are not creatures of entropy, but a part of creation itself. In Dark Sun, the primordials manifest through the 4 elemental planes (Earth, Fire, Wind, Water .... HEART! jk). Primordials have been described as deific rivals that took part in Creation and fought over who gets what. It just so happens that Athas had no gods to begin with, being the sole dominion of the primordials. The only power source available was Primal, in the beginning. Then came Psionics, Elemental, Arcane, Shadow, and Necromancy. All of the powers after Primal are "interloper" sources that had no place in Athas Who are you to say divine power cannot be discovered?
2. The only problem with tharizdun thematically is that he is a GOD. Something that simply shouldn't exist... It breaks the virisimulatude of the world. It's like dropping an M21 in the world. It may be thematic to have a boom stick in a post apocalyptic setting, but that doesn't mean that the M21 is appropriate. Army of Darkness I'm looking your way.
Shouldn't? What is this silly word? "Shouldn't" shouldn't even be your call unless you're the DM. Listen, divine magic won't break anything the other power sources haven't broken already. If anything, divine energy might be the ONLY answer in revitalizing a dying world. The sun is drained and about to go supernova, the world is nearly a barren wasteland, and there is no other source of energy to pump life back into Athas. Unless you're going to be using the "Conservation of energy" law of physics, then the only other source of power to revive Athas is from the outside, ie Astral Sea. Even if the Astral Sea is empty of deific presence, and never have had deities habiting its space, it could still have the potential energy for divine birth.
But Like I said, it's not WRONG. nothing is wrong, it's a story, but I feel like taking a deity from one cosmology and placing him , not only in a different cosmology, but in a world without gods entirely just to tell a story of doom may be...excessive? unnecisary? Are there no established characters or conceits in Dark Sun that could pull it off? Couldn't it have been Tharizdun's whispers that drive a Sorceror King crazy and attempt to create a weapon that turns out to be a chaos seed and doom another of the city states to ruin if not saved in time?
To me it's all about the approach, and adding in Tharizdun is heavy handed IMO. But like I said, that makes it neither bad nor wrong.
You say "it's not wrong" but you saidg it "shouldn't" be in Dark Sun before. Kinda contradictory thurr ..
You want to talk about excessive, unnecessary? Tell that to the Green Age people who were pretty much content until some punk introduced arcane magic to the world. Now THAT was unnecesary.
Even though Athas is a post-apocalyptic dying world, it still has the potential for a lot of good things to happen. The situation on Athas is basically that everything/one has reached rock bottom. There is no place to go but up from there. I see a world where mortals have the ability to transcend mortal flesh to become dragons and avangions. If they can do that, then they can certainly ascend even further to become actual gods. They just have to find the right method and/or circumstances to achieve such a state. Like the empty celestial Holds/Thrones in Malazan, I see an empty niche in Dark Sun begging to be filled with divinity.
1. If the primordials are so great, then why haven't they destroyed creation yet (I mean the material plane). From what I've seen of stated primordials, the Dragon is just tops. Know, I'm not overly familiar with the old lore and mythos (the prism pentad novels, right), nor the later boxed sets, but if the primordials are the best then my suspicion is that the material plane would have been washed away in elemental chaos long ago.
For reasons unknown, they have not destroyed the world, even though they collectively could. Only the weakest Primordials have stats, and they're individually just as much of a match for a group of adventurers as the Dragon.
I would assume that the goal and exact nature of the primordials in Dark Sun are not the same as they are in core D&D. If halflings, elves, and arcane magic can be different, then the primordials (and gods) can have their differences too.
2. The only problem with tharizdun thematically is that he is a GOD. Something that simply shouldn't exist... It breaks the virisimulatude of the world. It's like dropping an M21 in the world. It may be thematic to have a boom stick in a post apocalyptic setting, but that doesn't mean that the M21 is appropriate. Army of Darkness I'm looking your way.
Gods exist in Athas's histiory. M21s never did. It's not the same thing at all.
But Like I said, it's not WRONG. nothing is wrong, it's a story, but I feel like taking a deity from one cosmology and placing him , not only in a different cosmology, but in a world without gods entirely just to tell a story of doom may be...excessive? unnecisary? Are there no established characters or conceits in Dark Sun that could pull it off? Couldn't it have been Tharizdun's whispers that drive a Sorceror King crazy and attempt to create a weapon that turns out to be a chaos seed and doom another of the city states to ruin if not saved in time?
The fact that the gods were defeated by the primordials is intregal in explaining why the world of 4E Dark Sun is the way it is. Exploring what happened to those (or just one) defeated gods doesn't seem excessive or unecessary.
Making that last surviving god a fallen and corrupted entity that would sooner destroy the world than save it makes it an interesting twist.
Using a god that already more or less fits the concept and themes of the world perfectly when you've already done the same thing many times in many other campaign settings is just business as usual.
Tharizdun is a natural fit for the world, not some random, totally inappropriate deity being shoved in with no context.
*Edit- attributed quotes to correct poster
Primordials defeated the gods. The dragon defeated the primordials if we go with what is written in the mauraders adventures. They slumber now but no reason they can't be woken up.
I havent read the Marauders adventure. Is that what's written? Yuck.
Yeah, hope thats more of a legend than being fact.
Not that I dislike Torog. On the contrary, I like him alot.
Just saying.
Ima quote my post from the Arcane Classes thread.
Pretty much, yeah.
Rune Magic is a thing forgotten for hundreds of years, more akin to art or a craft than an actual form of writing (and in someways perhaps even resembling a science). This art has been lost since time out of memory, perhaps even the sorceror kings have no memory of it. A Thri Kreen might be able to rediscover Rune Magic by delving deep enough into his racial memory, and anyone might be able to discover within the confines of some forgotten ruins an ancient, shattered codex that is covered in runes; slowly re-learning the runic arts as they reconstruct the slab of stone it was written on.
It's been so long forgotten that even to a Sorceror-King the runes might appear as nothing more than fanciful etchings on a Runepriest's weapon and armor, and none - not even the Runepriest - would have any idea where the power of the things come from, at least not until the story allows them to discover where the power they wield originated from.
Might even be a good tie-in for the party when a deity reappears. Discover that the Runes were created through the divine magic of the ancient gods of the Green Age, and turn them against the deity to thwart his actions and drive his destructive power away from Athas.
I'll take the gods over the silly Yuzhan Vong wannabes and psychic Flippers.
Actually, the Yuuzhan Vong are directly derivitave of the Rhulisti Halflings. Same person came up with both ideas, and the Rhulisti were published about a decade before the Yuuzhan Vong came into print. Even the invasion idea is said by reliable sources to have been based on the Rhulisti returning on the Messenger "comet".The Yuuzhan Vong are actually the Rhulisti wannabees. I am not trying to be a troll, but this point comes up often enough to require clarification.
Is there AO in the Dark Sun Setting? Or has AO dissapeared as well as all the other divine beings?
I believe Ao is the overgod of the Forgotten Realms setting only,at the end of one of the major FR story arcs, he is actually described reporting to his superior (Implied, IMO, to be G-d himself)
What about the Runepriest? Nothing at all keeps them from being functional in the land of Athas
Ima quote my post from the Arcane Classes thread.
I don't think there is anything that is really wrong with using them, but It bears remembering that divine power still has to come from somwhere. The fact that runes still work gives you a great plot thread.
I'm AFB, but i think there is a thing in the DSCG that says the Primordials destroyed some astral sea...relay...sould trafficing...thingy. Basically that the Primordials destroyed the divine infrastructure in addition to the gods.
Later on, as the thri-keen (kreen?) gains levels, the Primordial forces maybe alerted to this remnant of divine power/infrastructure remaining. they may even try and do something about it. This gives a great seed for you to create adventures that hit long forgotten locations.
See, to me, it's not about what can't be done, but what kind of story potential does this option open up that wasn't there before, and is it appropriate for my game.
IMO.
I don't know enough about Dark Sun to contribute much this discussion, but I did find this passage in my DSCG: "No godly domains remain within reach of mortal travelers, and the easy connections between the plane and Athas have been severed. The few Athasians who have journeyed beyond the Gray into the depths of the Astral Sea (usually agents of the sorcerer-kings, dispatched to seek long-lost treasures) have found little more than desolate ruins and terrible abominations."(pg17)
This would imply that the Astral Sea is definitely still there, but the surrounding text makes it sound like souls have to be rerouted through the Gray instead of direct to the Astral Sea, so you could still be right about the infrastructure being mucked with, even if not destroyed.
Hope that helps a bit.
Dragons and Gods are uniquely handled in Athas, and I would like to keep it that way. The Inner planes are the bomb!
faculty.fordham.edu/klima/anselm.htm&nbs...