Thought on Psionics vs. Magic - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Thought on Psionics vs. Magic

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
terminus_vortexa
Oct 14, 2008 12:08:50 The thought crossed my mind - Is it possible that Psionics is (like the 3.5 rules mechanics seem to hint) actually more potent by itself than Defiling, and the only reason the common people of Athas seem to think wizards are more powerful is because that's what the wizards WANT them to think. The Champions could have seeded this rumor so that after they wiped out all the mega-powerful Green Age psionicists in the Wars, everyone would be convinced that the natural psionics thay could develop and hone could never match the book-learned magic of the Defilers, thus quelling many potential rebellions that could have occurred if villages sequestered their budding psions and helped them grow powerful enough to make a change for the better.

I remember that in 2E, magic was WAY more powerful than psionics, and the settings and rules were in accordance with this. But in 3.5e, the roles seem reversed, at least in the mechanics.
#2
Zardnaar
Oct 15, 2008 0:21:32 Psionics to me have always seemed slightly overpowered vs a single target. In 2nd ed they could get higher level effects at a lower level than a Wizard and a 3.5 Psion could nova off vs an important target and then rest for the day if all PP's were expended.

Psions are still one of the more powerful classes. If I was an NPC I woudl be scared of them. Defilers were more powerful than Psions and Preservers mechanically in 2nd ed.
#3
tashalatora
Oct 15, 2008 23:24:43 I think in most campaign settings arcane classes are much stronger than psionics due to all of the additional options.

I usually limit Dark Sun games to Core, Complete Psionic, XPH and Athas.org as their expansions are much more balanced than your generic splatbook!

With all of the hatred against magic and needing to fuel spells with the land though, most arcane characters (especially Defilers) wind up holding their spellcasting in reserve in my previous campaigns.
The game winds up seeming slanted against Wizards when compared to Psions or Clerics.

The flavor of Dark Sun always seemed to me like magic was a power to be feared. Maybe the problem is it's just feared because it's a destructive and unknown force... a fear possibly cultivation by it's practitioners.
#4
terminus_vortexa
Oct 16, 2008 17:22:24 i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of. The 3.5E rules really helped support this, I think. ponder - Say the average Dragon has total character levels of 40. Between levels of Dragon and Wizard, his EML (Effective manifester level) is maybe 25-30, same for his caster levels. Metamagic and Metapsionics aside for now(Because metapsionics CRUSHES metamagic in application), said Dragon can do about 20d6 damage with their high-level spells, like Delayed Blast Fireball and such, or around 150 max damage with Disintegrate and such.

A psion of Lv 40 can do 40d6 damage with almost any of their scalable powers. if metapsionic Maximize is employed, it's 36d6 maximized, which is 216 damage. If the manifested power in question is Crystal Shard, the projectile fired isn't subject to PR and no savings throw is allowed.

And all a psionicist (except maybe an Erudite) has to do to get that strong is survive and contemplate. An SK or any other type of defiler has to get access to books, research, vast sums of money, and all the BS that wizards need to do their research and become more powerful. It takes effort, and everyone knows who you are and has some idea of the stuff you're up to. You can't just decide to be a wizard, someone has to teach you. And every spell has limitations on the damage and effects it provides. There is no limit on the potency of a scalable psionic power, and with enough resolve, even a lowly slave who can, by chance, manifest Sustenance, could potentially escape, wander out into the desert, crawl under a nice safe rock, and just meditate and focus for maybe YEARS at a time, all the while becoming more and more potent. If the issue of XP comes up, learning about one's environs and it's populace(sentient or no) should grant XP, even if only a little at a time. Heck, they could maybe even forge an Earth pact while doing so, finding ways to fulfill their end while not even leaving their nice safe hidey hole, through the use of Psionics. But that's neither here nor there. Years later, this being of ultimately common origins, who is now a being of epic might , could crawl out from under his rock, go to the nearest City State, dispatch most of the templars with ease, stride right on up to the SK and pump him full of Intensified Quickened Twinned Burrowing Crystal Shards. ANY psion who lives long enough, strives hard enough, and wants it bad enough can become more powerful thasn any SK, due mostly to the multiclassing necessary for the Transformations.
#5
Pennarin
Oct 16, 2008 23:17:00
i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of.

It think its rather the Order that's leaving the SKs alone, and the SKs - too happy not to have to fight so many powerful opponents - feel obliged not to retaliate.

This was probably a decision made by the Order so they would maximize their chances of survival in the long run.
#6
Zardnaar
Oct 16, 2008 23:51:34
i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of. The 3.5E rules really helped support this, I think. ponder - Say the average Dragon has total character levels of 40. Between levels of Dragon and Wizard, his EML (Effective manifester level) is maybe 25-30, same for his caster levels. Metamagic and Metapsionics aside for now(Because metapsionics CRUSHES metamagic in application), said Dragon can do about 20d6 damage with their high-level spells, like Delayed Blast Fireball and such, or around 150 max damage with Disintegrate and such.

A psion of Lv 40 can do 40d6 damage with almost any of their scalable powers. if metapsionic Maximize is employed, it's 36d6 maximized, which is 216 damage. If the manifested power in question is Crystal Shard, the projectile fired isn't subject to PR and no savings throw is allowed.

And all a psionicist (except maybe an Erudite) has to do to get that strong is survive and contemplate. An SK or any other type of defiler has to get access to books, research, vast sums of money, and all the BS that wizards need to do their research and become more powerful. It takes effort, and everyone knows who you are and has some idea of the stuff you're up to. You can't just decide to be a wizard, someone has to teach you. And every spell has limitations on the damage and effects it provides. There is no limit on the potency of a scalable psionic power, and with enough resolve, even a lowly slave who can, by chance, manifest Sustenance, could potentially escape, wander out into the desert, crawl under a nice safe rock, and just meditate and focus for maybe YEARS at a time, all the while becoming more and more potent. If the issue of XP comes up, learning about one's environs and it's populace(sentient or no) should grant XP, even if only a little at a time. Heck, they could maybe even forge an Earth pact while doing so, finding ways to fulfill their end while not even leaving their nice safe hidey hole, through the use of Psionics. But that's neither here nor there. Years later, this being of ultimately common origins, who is now a being of epic might , could crawl out from under his rock, go to the nearest City State, dispatch most of the templars with ease, stride right on up to the SK and pump him full of Intensified Quickened Twinned Burrowing Crystal Shards. ANY psion who lives long enough, strives hard enough, and wants it bad enough can become more powerful thasn any SK, due mostly to the multiclassing necessary for the Transformations.

Hate to break it to you byt wizards will beat Psions in the damage game, usually by abusing metamagiced scorching rays and using feats like sudden empower or sudden maximise. A level 40 Dragon is also a crap character for a lvl 40 PC and will get owned by a lvl 40 Psion or Wizard. The Psion of wizard will also have alot more equipment as well due to not having to spend anything on metamorphosis spell or has a better offensive epic spell for the same price or less- one that summons up primal elementals or something. I can almost guess who will win a combat at those levels between Dragon/Psion/Wizard with 100% accuracy more or less. Can you?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 terminus_vortexa Oct 14, 2008 12:08:50	The thought crossed my mind - Is it possible that Psionics is (like the 3.5 rules mechanics seem to hint) actually more potent by itself than Defiling, and the only reason the common people of Athas seem to think wizards are more powerful is because that's what the wizards WANT them to think. The Champions could have seeded this rumor so that after they wiped out all the mega-powerful Green Age psionicists in the Wars, everyone would be convinced that the natural psionics thay could develop and hone could never match the book-learned magic of the Defilers, thus quelling many potential rebellions that could have occurred if villages sequestered their budding psions and helped them grow powerful enough to make a change for the better. I remember that in 2E, magic was WAY more powerful than psionics, and the settings and rules were in accordance with this. But in 3.5e, the roles seem reversed, at least in the mechanics.
#2 Zardnaar Oct 15, 2008 0:21:32	Psionics to me have always seemed slightly overpowered vs a single target. In 2nd ed they could get higher level effects at a lower level than a Wizard and a 3.5 Psion could nova off vs an important target and then rest for the day if all PP's were expended. Psions are still one of the more powerful classes. If I was an NPC I woudl be scared of them. Defilers were more powerful than Psions and Preservers mechanically in 2nd ed.
#3 tashalatora Oct 15, 2008 23:24:43	I think in most campaign settings arcane classes are much stronger than psionics due to all of the additional options. I usually limit Dark Sun games to Core, Complete Psionic, XPH and Athas.org as their expansions are much more balanced than your generic splatbook! With all of the hatred against magic and needing to fuel spells with the land though, most arcane characters (especially Defilers) wind up holding their spellcasting in reserve in my previous campaigns. The game winds up seeming slanted against Wizards when compared to Psions or Clerics. The flavor of Dark Sun always seemed to me like magic was a power to be feared. Maybe the problem is it's just feared because it's a destructive and unknown force... a fear possibly cultivation by it's practitioners.
#4 terminus_vortexa Oct 16, 2008 17:22:24	i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of. The 3.5E rules really helped support this, I think. ponder - Say the average Dragon has total character levels of 40. Between levels of Dragon and Wizard, his EML (Effective manifester level) is maybe 25-30, same for his caster levels. Metamagic and Metapsionics aside for now(Because metapsionics CRUSHES metamagic in application), said Dragon can do about 20d6 damage with their high-level spells, like Delayed Blast Fireball and such, or around 150 max damage with Disintegrate and such. A psion of Lv 40 can do 40d6 damage with almost any of their scalable powers. if metapsionic Maximize is employed, it's 36d6 maximized, which is 216 damage. If the manifested power in question is Crystal Shard, the projectile fired isn't subject to PR and no savings throw is allowed. And all a psionicist (except maybe an Erudite) has to do to get that strong is survive and contemplate. An SK or any other type of defiler has to get access to books, research, vast sums of money, and all the BS that wizards need to do their research and become more powerful. It takes effort, and everyone knows who you are and has some idea of the stuff you're up to. You can't just decide to be a wizard, someone has to teach you. And every spell has limitations on the damage and effects it provides. There is no limit on the potency of a scalable psionic power, and with enough resolve, even a lowly slave who can, by chance, manifest Sustenance, could potentially escape, wander out into the desert, crawl under a nice safe rock, and just meditate and focus for maybe YEARS at a time, all the while becoming more and more potent. If the issue of XP comes up, learning about one's environs and it's populace(sentient or no) should grant XP, even if only a little at a time. Heck, they could maybe even forge an Earth pact while doing so, finding ways to fulfill their end while not even leaving their nice safe hidey hole, through the use of Psionics. But that's neither here nor there. Years later, this being of ultimately common origins, who is now a being of epic might , could crawl out from under his rock, go to the nearest City State, dispatch most of the templars with ease, stride right on up to the SK and pump him full of Intensified Quickened Twinned Burrowing Crystal Shards. ANY psion who lives long enough, strives hard enough, and wants it bad enough can become more powerful thasn any SK, due mostly to the multiclassing necessary for the Transformations.
#5 Pennarin Oct 16, 2008 23:17:00	i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of. It think its rather the Order that's leaving the SKs alone, and the SKs - too happy not to have to fight so many powerful opponents - feel obliged not to retaliate. This was probably a decision made by the Order so they would maximize their chances of survival in the long run.
#6 Zardnaar Oct 16, 2008 23:51:34	i think the fact that the Sorcerer kings leave the Order almost entirely alone is indicative of a deep-seated fear and respect for what a focused and driven psionics user is capable of. The 3.5E rules really helped support this, I think. ponder - Say the average Dragon has total character levels of 40. Between levels of Dragon and Wizard, his EML (Effective manifester level) is maybe 25-30, same for his caster levels. Metamagic and Metapsionics aside for now(Because metapsionics CRUSHES metamagic in application), said Dragon can do about 20d6 damage with their high-level spells, like Delayed Blast Fireball and such, or around 150 max damage with Disintegrate and such. A psion of Lv 40 can do 40d6 damage with almost any of their scalable powers. if metapsionic Maximize is employed, it's 36d6 maximized, which is 216 damage. If the manifested power in question is Crystal Shard, the projectile fired isn't subject to PR and no savings throw is allowed. And all a psionicist (except maybe an Erudite) has to do to get that strong is survive and contemplate. An SK or any other type of defiler has to get access to books, research, vast sums of money, and all the BS that wizards need to do their research and become more powerful. It takes effort, and everyone knows who you are and has some idea of the stuff you're up to. You can't just decide to be a wizard, someone has to teach you. And every spell has limitations on the damage and effects it provides. There is no limit on the potency of a scalable psionic power, and with enough resolve, even a lowly slave who can, by chance, manifest Sustenance, could potentially escape, wander out into the desert, crawl under a nice safe rock, and just meditate and focus for maybe YEARS at a time, all the while becoming more and more potent. If the issue of XP comes up, learning about one's environs and it's populace(sentient or no) should grant XP, even if only a little at a time. Heck, they could maybe even forge an Earth pact while doing so, finding ways to fulfill their end while not even leaving their nice safe hidey hole, through the use of Psionics. But that's neither here nor there. Years later, this being of ultimately common origins, who is now a being of epic might , could crawl out from under his rock, go to the nearest City State, dispatch most of the templars with ease, stride right on up to the SK and pump him full of Intensified Quickened Twinned Burrowing Crystal Shards. ANY psion who lives long enough, strives hard enough, and wants it bad enough can become more powerful thasn any SK, due mostly to the multiclassing necessary for the Transformations. Hate to break it to you byt wizards will beat Psions in the damage game, usually by abusing metamagiced scorching rays and using feats like sudden empower or sudden maximise. A level 40 Dragon is also a crap character for a lvl 40 PC and will get owned by a lvl 40 Psion or Wizard. The Psion of wizard will also have alot more equipment as well due to not having to spend anything on metamorphosis spell or has a better offensive epic spell for the same price or less- one that summons up primal elementals or something. I can almost guess who will win a combat at those levels between Dragon/Psion/Wizard with 100% accuracy more or less. Can you?