Tougher Characters - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Tougher Characters

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Jacek
Jun 16, 2010 8:40:03 What about the character attributes? are there going to be tough encounters? is the lack of magical items and metal will be reflected on higher attributes?

#2
zylo_drizzt
Jun 16, 2010 8:50:42 first off there has been few releases, second off, no there will not be higher stats just because you play dark sun. magic items and such are going to be handled just like dmg 2 with the natural enhancements rule. Better equipment will be handled as masterwork stuff so I am assuming that weapons made out of obsidian will be better than bone and might have an in game effect.

it is no longer in the game that characters should be more powerful just based on how it was in editions previously.
#3
Jacek
Jun 16, 2010 8:54:53 Thanks Zylo... gonna get me that book DMG2... to look into it

Where is that rule? the natural enhacement in what chapter?
#4
firesnakearies
Jun 16, 2010 14:17:49 It's in Chapter 5, on page 138.
#5
Jacek
Jun 16, 2010 18:04:16 Thanks firesnakearies
#6
big_goon
Jun 23, 2010 13:21:53 Instead of using the DMG 2 natural enhancement bonuses (which, honestly, are kind of boring), one could apply the two enhancement bonuses specific attributes (all the powers/damage/skills/defenses associated to the attributes). This would, in effect, leave 4 attributes untouched by enhancement bonus (and all the associated skills, powers and at least 1 defense).

I like this idea. At higher levels, players eventually "fall behind" in 1 or maybe even 2 defenses, and many skills. In effect, players will think they are getting stronger, faster, more intelligent, wiser, etc... but are instead leaving weaknesses for enemies to exploit.

For example: Instead of level 13 Dwarven Fighter getting +3 enhancement bonus, the dwarf gets to choose two attributes to enhance 3 times: the dwarf picks STR and WIS three times. Thus, the dwarf will have +3 enhancment bonus to STR modifiers (+3 to STR attacks, damage, fortitude, Athletics) and +3 enhancemnt bonus WIS modifier (+3 to combat superiority, will saves, perception, insight, etc). Unfortunately, this prevents the dwarf from increasing his/her AC (unless already wearing heavy armor anyways) and Reflex.

If the dwarf cannot find another way to increase this defense, the dwarf will have to get some help when fighting enemies that can target Reflex. A weakness some smart monsters might be able to exploit ;)

I posted a blog about this a while ago, but I should update it.
#7
firesnakearies
Jun 24, 2010 4:03:25 That's a pretty intriguing idea, Big_Goon. I like it. I'll have to think about using something along those lines in my game...
#8
Neutronium_Dragon
Jun 24, 2010 19:20:18 The problem with that idea is that ability score increases already create that effect; doubling it up like that won't just leave a weakness, it'll create a hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense in fairly short order.
#9
big_goon
Jun 25, 2010 14:11:10
The problem with that idea is that ability score increases already create that effect; doubling it up like that won't just leave a weakness, it'll create a hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense in fairly short order.

"hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense" is a weakness, no? It'll only really get that bad when you get to higher levels, like Epic Tier. And yes, it'll make the game challenging and scary - which I think the first encounter in Encounters Season 2 emphasized well.

Eitherway, I'm planning on using a combination of magic items/reward bonuses with my system, so that players get some enhancement bonuses - just not as strong as those listed in the adventurer's vault - and some extra ability score boosts.
#10
Tal-eth
Jun 25, 2010 15:16:38 Hmm...would a player enjoy this though?

I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will.

I think players want challenge and danger...but not to that degree.

/shrug
#11
FlashbackJon
Jun 25, 2010 15:47:09 I'm also not sure it's somehow less boring than the existing inherent bonus system.
#12
big_goon
Jun 25, 2010 17:26:24
I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will.

Hah! Given the choice... no probably not.

But people on Dark Sun don't "choose" to live there. They deal with want they get, and survive if possible. Everybody has weaknesses, including the Dragon and the Sorcerer Kings (talk to King Kalak about weaknesses and he'll give you an earful). The ones that survive are the ones that hide their glaring, exploitable faults.
#13
urzafrank
Jun 26, 2010 0:16:08
I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will.

Hah! Given the choice... no probably not.

But people on Dark Sun don't "choose" to live there. They deal with want they get, and survive if possible. Everybody has weaknesses, including the Dragon and the Sorcerer Kings (talk to King Kalak about weaknesses and he'll give you an earful). The ones that survive are the ones that hide their glaring, exploitable faults.

if their faults are that glaring they will die.......... and auto death is not fun.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Jacek Jun 16, 2010 8:40:03	What about the character attributes? are there going to be tough encounters? is the lack of magical items and metal will be reflected on higher attributes?
#2 zylo_drizzt Jun 16, 2010 8:50:42	first off there has been few releases, second off, no there will not be higher stats just because you play dark sun. magic items and such are going to be handled just like dmg 2 with the natural enhancements rule. Better equipment will be handled as masterwork stuff so I am assuming that weapons made out of obsidian will be better than bone and might have an in game effect. it is no longer in the game that characters should be more powerful just based on how it was in editions previously.
#3 Jacek Jun 16, 2010 8:54:53	Thanks Zylo... gonna get me that book DMG2... to look into it Where is that rule? the natural enhacement in what chapter?
#4 firesnakearies Jun 16, 2010 14:17:49	It's in Chapter 5, on page 138.
#5 Jacek Jun 16, 2010 18:04:16	Thanks firesnakearies
#6 big_goon Jun 23, 2010 13:21:53	Instead of using the DMG 2 natural enhancement bonuses (which, honestly, are kind of boring), one could apply the two enhancement bonuses specific attributes (all the powers/damage/skills/defenses associated to the attributes). This would, in effect, leave 4 attributes untouched by enhancement bonus (and all the associated skills, powers and at least 1 defense). I like this idea. At higher levels, players eventually "fall behind" in 1 or maybe even 2 defenses, and many skills. In effect, players will think they are getting stronger, faster, more intelligent, wiser, etc... but are instead leaving weaknesses for enemies to exploit. For example: Instead of level 13 Dwarven Fighter getting +3 enhancement bonus, the dwarf gets to choose two attributes to enhance 3 times: the dwarf picks STR and WIS three times. Thus, the dwarf will have +3 enhancment bonus to STR modifiers (+3 to STR attacks, damage, fortitude, Athletics) and +3 enhancemnt bonus WIS modifier (+3 to combat superiority, will saves, perception, insight, etc). Unfortunately, this prevents the dwarf from increasing his/her AC (unless already wearing heavy armor anyways) and Reflex. If the dwarf cannot find another way to increase this defense, the dwarf will have to get some help when fighting enemies that can target Reflex. A weakness some smart monsters might be able to exploit ;) I posted a blog about this a while ago, but I should update it.
#7 firesnakearies Jun 24, 2010 4:03:25	That's a pretty intriguing idea, Big_Goon. I like it. I'll have to think about using something along those lines in my game...
#8 Neutronium_Dragon Jun 24, 2010 19:20:18	The problem with that idea is that ability score increases already create that effect; doubling it up like that won't just leave a weakness, it'll create a hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense in fairly short order.
#9 big_goon Jun 25, 2010 14:11:10	The problem with that idea is that ability score increases already create that effect; doubling it up like that won't just leave a weakness, it'll create a hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense in fairly short order. "hit-on-anything-but-a-1 defense" is a weakness, no? It'll only really get that bad when you get to higher levels, like Epic Tier. And yes, it'll make the game challenging and scary - which I think the first encounter in Encounters Season 2 emphasized well. Eitherway, I'm planning on using a combination of magic items/reward bonuses with my system, so that players get some enhancement bonuses - just not as strong as those listed in the adventurer's vault - and some extra ability score boosts.
#10 Tal-eth Jun 25, 2010 15:16:38	Hmm...would a player enjoy this though? I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will. I think players want challenge and danger...but not to that degree. /shrug
#11 FlashbackJon Jun 25, 2010 15:47:09	I'm also not sure it's somehow less boring than the existing inherent bonus system.
#12 big_goon Jun 25, 2010 17:26:24	I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will. Hah! Given the choice... no probably not. But people on Dark Sun don't "choose" to live there. They deal with want they get, and survive if possible. Everybody has weaknesses, including the Dragon and the Sorcerer Kings (talk to King Kalak about weaknesses and he'll give you an earful). The ones that survive are the ones that hide their glaring, exploitable faults.
#13 urzafrank Jun 26, 2010 0:16:08	I don't think I would want to embrace the illusion of becoming more powerful only to find out that I'm a "glass cannon," if you will. Hah! Given the choice... no probably not. But people on Dark Sun don't "choose" to live there. They deal with want they get, and survive if possible. Everybody has weaknesses, including the Dragon and the Sorcerer Kings (talk to King Kalak about weaknesses and he'll give you an earful). The ones that survive are the ones that hide their glaring, exploitable faults. if their faults are that glaring they will die.......... and auto death is not fun.