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Understanding survival days

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
saroxisfox
Sep 29, 2010 18:43:15 I'm trying to understand survival days for the game I'm running. As I understand it, you need a survival day or you start having problems with Sun Sickness and whatnot, but you can travel by night to make it just an endurance check versus the cold.

My problem is, once my players decided this, they just run around at night, not using survival days at all - just eating and drinking regularly and making endurance checks. I am also unclear what exactly the long-term effects of failing the checks would be. And whatever those may be, can players just burn a survival day to "undo" them? It seemed really frustrating to myself and my players, and while I don't just want to ditch the whole thing, I still don't fully understand the system as I read it.
#2
tentagil
Sep 29, 2010 20:12:33 The survival days are their food and drink, as well as sun balm to prevent burns and various other required items to survive while traveling the wastes. So they still have to use them, and even if they only travel at night unless they find a cave or something each day sun sickness is still a factor since during the day they are still out in the sun.

Basically traveling on Athas is exteremly harsh.

From what I understand with the sun sickness yes useing a survival day should remove the effects. Same should go for the effects from the cold. I don't think they went in to what the longer term effects of the cold are but I personally have them slowed as a result of a failure in the next encounter, and continual failures I start adding a damage factor as they are essentially getting frost bitten.
#3
Bly2729
Sep 29, 2010 21:30:29 If anything, traveling at night is actually more hazardous. If you travel without resources during the day, the DM attacks your Fortitude defense. The 1st symptom is - You lose a healing surge and can't regain it without a recovery. The attack roll could always be a 1.

At night, you still suffer the attack roll for Sun Sickness, but you also have to make an endurance check. The nightly endurance check occurs whether you're supplied or not.

Would your PCs rather make two checks or one?
#4
ritorix
Sep 29, 2010 21:35:21 DSCS p199:
"Resting by Day: Adventurers who take extended
rests during the day remain subject to contracting
sun sickness, but they gain a +4 bonus to Fortitude
against such attacks."

You still need one survival day, per day, everyday.

Now at night, you risk losing healing surges on top of needing a survival day. Night travel is more risky than day travel.

And you can make the lost healing surges matter more by preventing extended rests unless they are at major story points. Sure they sleep every night, but they dont get a 'good rest' until they reach civilization or an appropriate story point.

Take my current game for example. Party leaves Urik for a trip to Silver Spring, a week-long wilderness journey. Does that mean a week of extended rests, every night as they go? Hell no. They will be on their toes until they reach civilization again. So night travel will eat away at their surges in a meaningful way, and sun sickness would be a threat too if they are unsupplied.
#5
baronspam
Sep 29, 2010 23:36:42
Survival days are an abstraction of supplies needed to travel well and safely outside of the city states. They include food, water, medicines like skin balms and salts, proper clothing (despite the fact the everyone in the art is always half naked) shelter material for nightimes, fuel, protective gear (face mask if you are near the silt sea, etc). As others have pointed out, you need those survival days every day, night time travel or day time travel. If you travel at night you have problems on top of those of that come from being unsupplied.
#6
atomicbanana
Sep 30, 2010 16:22:02 Isn't there a monster that only comes out at night? The Anakore. Maybe your party sleeps during the day, but when that red orb drops below the horizon and they wake up....

The party awakes from a troubled sleep, haunted by distant, bird-like cries that always seem to be approaching. Everyone sits up, and ROLLS INITIATIVE.

I just realized I didn't say anything about survival days in my response. But they've been pretty well covered. [/edit]
#7
awaken_D_M_golem
Sep 30, 2010 18:33:44 But that's the point ... after working out the mechanics of the specific rules,
the DM can still hose the players in TRUE Dark Sun style.

Thievery (trained skill) encounters come not just during the night.
Waking up from sleep, are rules in the DMG.
"Dude !! Where's my sword ?!"
#8
furiousgreg
Sep 30, 2010 18:51:12

From what I understand with the sun sickness yes useing a survival day should remove the effects. Same should go for the effects from the cold.

"Each daylight period that an unsupplied character or mount travels through the wilderness, Athas makes an attack against Fortitude. On a hit, the target contracts sun sickness."

Survival Days do not heal the effects of the attack, only prevents the attack.

#9
furiousgreg
Sep 30, 2010 19:03:58
"NIGHT TRAVEL
Sun sickness can be avoided by waiting for the sun to set before undertaking ajourney. This strategy carries a different set of risks."

This line states that the Sun Sickness attack can be avoided by traveling at night in exchange for another type of check. So if you only travel at night then it seems to be true that there is no Sun Sickness attack.

However the DM should be very strict about any travel, or even any real activity IMO, at all during the day and require that even foraging, which requires some travel, or say being in combat, force either the consumption of a Survival Day or an Attack. If you aren't strict about this then you will get the OPs situation of the players exploiting what looks like a loophole in the system.
#10
furiousgreg
Sep 30, 2010 19:24:29
My problem is, once my players decided this, they just run around at night, not using survival days at all - just eating and drinking regularly and making endurance checks.

A Survival Day, as mentioned before, is an abstract for ease of bookkeeping and to keep players and GMs from having to keep track of how much food and water etc. you are carrying and consuming. So if you are letting your players "eat and drink" regularly then they are essentially using a Survival Day, and you should be keeping track of those costs. Now there is no agreed upon cost for water (at least not one clearly stated) but there is for food and for water skins (you have to carry water in something). So for each time they eat and drink regularly in the desert there should be a cost.

Oh, and foraging at night should be a very, if not extremely, difficult skill check.
#11
ritorix
Sep 30, 2010 21:19:01 If you travel at night you still have to sleep sometime. If you sleep during the day, you still need to save vs sun sickness (at +4). Its right there RAW. Unless you are all muls and dont need to rest every day, I guess?

The only exception I make for my games, is if players are not 'outdoors' for the whole 24 hours. If they run out during the day, do whatever, and return to the city by night, they are fine.
#12
furiousgreg
Sep 30, 2010 21:50:49
If you travel at night you still have to sleep sometime. If you sleep during the day, you still need to save vs sun sickness (at +4). Its right there RAW.

I agree with you actually. I say it seems like it's that case because they use the word avoid, which if you only read this one section, means you would avoid the attack. This contradicts the passage you're referring to.
Basically it's poorly written. They should say: each day you are unsupplied out in the desert you get a Sun Sickness attack, if you take an extended rest during the day that attack is at +4 Fort. If you do not travel during the day, taking you extended rest, you either a) Are attacked by Sun Sickness (+4 Fort.) and you make an End. check for traveling at night. Or b) you avoid the Sun Sickness Attack and make an END check instead.

Right now the way it's worded and the fact it's two separate paragraphs makes it seem contradictory.
#13
saroxisfox
Oct 01, 2010 14:50:47 I guess the other part of my question is, what's the penalty for failing said endurance check if they still go that route? I was having them lose healing surges, but I'm not sure if that or a different course is the right action.
#14
furiousgreg
Oct 02, 2010 9:11:20

For each 8-hour period spent traveling by night, an adventurer must succeed on an Endurance
check against a moderate DC or lose one healing surge (or hit points equal to the character’s
healing surge value if no healing surges are available).

Yes they loose a Surge or HPs. Also if you think your players are abusing the system just to get out of paying for Survivals Days, then adjust things a bit to compensate. Make sure that they have to keep track of their food and water, not just hand wave it, and remind them that they can't travel as quickly at night either, so a four day journey could end up being a 6 or 7 day journey (with 6-7 random encounter rolls instead of 4) don't for get the penalties for fighting in the dark. Make the END DC a little higher, or start charging for water (roleplay [Diplomacy check] bartering with the only water merchant in town).
You shouldn't penalize players for coming up with good ideas and avoiding danger, but at the same time you shouldn't let them exploit loopholes because the writing is bad.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 saroxisfox Sep 29, 2010 18:43:15	I'm trying to understand survival days for the game I'm running. As I understand it, you need a survival day or you start having problems with Sun Sickness and whatnot, but you can travel by night to make it just an endurance check versus the cold. My problem is, once my players decided this, they just run around at night, not using survival days at all - just eating and drinking regularly and making endurance checks. I am also unclear what exactly the long-term effects of failing the checks would be. And whatever those may be, can players just burn a survival day to "undo" them? It seemed really frustrating to myself and my players, and while I don't just want to ditch the whole thing, I still don't fully understand the system as I read it.
#2 tentagil Sep 29, 2010 20:12:33	The survival days are their food and drink, as well as sun balm to prevent burns and various other required items to survive while traveling the wastes. So they still have to use them, and even if they only travel at night unless they find a cave or something each day sun sickness is still a factor since during the day they are still out in the sun. Basically traveling on Athas is exteremly harsh. From what I understand with the sun sickness yes useing a survival day should remove the effects. Same should go for the effects from the cold. I don't think they went in to what the longer term effects of the cold are but I personally have them slowed as a result of a failure in the next encounter, and continual failures I start adding a damage factor as they are essentially getting frost bitten.
#3 Bly2729 Sep 29, 2010 21:30:29	If anything, traveling at night is actually more hazardous. If you travel without resources during the day, the DM attacks your Fortitude defense. The 1st symptom is - You lose a healing surge and can't regain it without a recovery. The attack roll could always be a 1. At night, you still suffer the attack roll for Sun Sickness, but you also have to make an endurance check. The nightly endurance check occurs whether you're supplied or not. Would your PCs rather make two checks or one?
#4 ritorix Sep 29, 2010 21:35:21	DSCS p199: "Resting by Day: Adventurers who take extended rests during the day remain subject to contracting sun sickness, but they gain a +4 bonus to Fortitude against such attacks." You still need one survival day, per day, everyday. Now at night, you risk losing healing surges on top of needing a survival day. Night travel is more risky than day travel. And you can make the lost healing surges matter more by preventing extended rests unless they are at major story points. Sure they sleep every night, but they dont get a 'good rest' until they reach civilization or an appropriate story point. Take my current game for example. Party leaves Urik for a trip to Silver Spring, a week-long wilderness journey. Does that mean a week of extended rests, every night as they go? Hell no. They will be on their toes until they reach civilization again. So night travel will eat away at their surges in a meaningful way, and sun sickness would be a threat too if they are unsupplied.
#5 baronspam Sep 29, 2010 23:36:42	Survival days are an abstraction of supplies needed to travel well and safely outside of the city states. They include food, water, medicines like skin balms and salts, proper clothing (despite the fact the everyone in the art is always half naked) shelter material for nightimes, fuel, protective gear (face mask if you are near the silt sea, etc). As others have pointed out, you need those survival days every day, night time travel or day time travel. If you travel at night you have problems on top of those of that come from being unsupplied.
#6 atomicbanana Sep 30, 2010 16:22:02	Isn't there a monster that only comes out at night? The Anakore. Maybe your party sleeps during the day, but when that red orb drops below the horizon and they wake up.... The party awakes from a troubled sleep, haunted by distant, bird-like cries that always seem to be approaching. Everyone sits up, and ROLLS INITIATIVE. I just realized I didn't say anything about survival days in my response. But they've been pretty well covered. [/edit]
#7 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 30, 2010 18:33:44	But that's the point ... after working out the mechanics of the specific rules, the DM can still hose the players in TRUE Dark Sun style. Thievery (trained skill) encounters come not just during the night. Waking up from sleep, are rules in the DMG. "Dude !! Where's my sword ?!"
#8 furiousgreg Sep 30, 2010 18:51:12	From what I understand with the sun sickness yes useing a survival day should remove the effects. Same should go for the effects from the cold. "Each daylight period that an *unsupplied* character or mount travels through the wilderness, Athas makes an attack against Fortitude. On a hit, the target contracts sun sickness." Survival Days do not heal the effects of the attack, only prevents the attack.
#9 furiousgreg Sep 30, 2010 19:03:58	"NIGHT TRAVEL Sun sickness can be avoided by waiting for the sun to set before undertaking ajourney. This strategy carries a different set of risks." This line states that the Sun Sickness attack can be *avoided* by traveling at night in exchange for another type of check. So if you only travel at night then it seems to be true that there is no Sun Sickness attack. However the DM should be very strict about any travel, or even any real activity IMO, at all during the day and require that even foraging, which requires some travel, or say being in combat, force either the consumption of a Survival Day or an Attack. If you aren't strict about this then you will get the OPs situation of the players exploiting what looks like a loophole in the system.
#10 furiousgreg Sep 30, 2010 19:24:29	My problem is, once my players decided this, they just run around at night, not using survival days at all - just eating and drinking regularly and making endurance checks. A Survival Day, as mentioned before, is an abstract for ease of bookkeeping and to keep players and GMs from having to keep track of how much food and water etc. you are carrying and consuming. So if you are letting your players "eat and drink" regularly then they are essentially using a Survival Day, and you should be keeping track of those costs. Now there is no agreed upon cost for water (at least not one clearly stated) but there is for food and for water skins (you have to carry water in something). So for each time they eat and drink regularly in the desert there should be a cost. Oh, and foraging at night should be a very, if not extremely, difficult skill check.
#11 ritorix Sep 30, 2010 21:19:01	If you travel at night you still have to sleep sometime. If you sleep during the day, you still need to save vs sun sickness (at +4). Its right there RAW. Unless you are all muls and dont need to rest every day, I guess? The only exception I make for my games, is if players are not 'outdoors' for the whole 24 hours. If they run out during the day, do whatever, and return to the city by night, they are fine.
#12 furiousgreg Sep 30, 2010 21:50:49	If you travel at night you still have to sleep sometime. If you sleep during the day, you still need to save vs sun sickness (at +4). Its right there RAW. I agree with you actually. I say it seems like it's that case because they use the word avoid, which if you only read this one section, means you would avoid the attack. This contradicts the passage you're referring to. Basically it's poorly written. They should say: each day you are unsupplied out in the desert you get a Sun Sickness attack, if you take an extended rest during the day that attack is at +4 Fort. If you do not travel during the day, taking you extended rest, you either a) Are attacked by Sun Sickness (+4 Fort.) and you make an End. check for traveling at night. Or b) you avoid the Sun Sickness Attack and make an END check instead. Right now the way it's worded and the fact it's two separate paragraphs makes it seem contradictory.
#13 saroxisfox Oct 01, 2010 14:50:47	I guess the other part of my question is, what's the penalty for failing said endurance check if they still go that route? I was having them lose healing surges, but I'm not sure if that or a different course is the right action.
#14 furiousgreg Oct 02, 2010 9:11:20	For each 8-hour period spent traveling by night, an adventurer must succeed on an Endurance check against a moderate DC or lose one healing surge (or hit points equal to the character’s healing surge value if no healing surges are available). Yes they loose a Surge or HPs. Also if you think your players are abusing the system just to get out of paying for Survivals Days, then adjust things a bit to compensate. Make sure that they have to keep track of their food and water, not just hand wave it, and remind them that they can't travel as quickly at night either, so a four day journey could end up being a 6 or 7 day journey (with 6-7 random encounter rolls instead of 4) don't for get the penalties for fighting in the dark. Make the END DC a little higher, or start charging for water (roleplay [Diplomacy check] bartering with the only water merchant in town). You shouldn't penalize players for coming up with good ideas and avoiding danger, but at the same time you shouldn't let them exploit loopholes because the writing is bad.