Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 shiyongseng Mar 20, 2010 2:57:29	I've been looking for an updated timline.  All I've found so far is that Dregoth is getting geared up, but they don't mention anything about Hammanu becoming a dragon for a short time and being destroyed, or about him taking Rajaat (the Dark Lens) down.      I'm glad Dark Sun is getting attention again, but I hate to think what's being applied from 4E.  In little time there are already 3 PHBs, and I think 4E is (in Chinese) shi3.  I hope (WotC) 4E doesn't screw up psionics too bad, or even the Dark Sun world for that matter, like they did Dragonlance & FR.  The timeline could be made totaly uninteresting, but I'd like to read Dark Sun novels again.  Becauses of so many changes to the DL world I've not even tried to read more than 3 or 4 of the new books.  I'm sure I'll have the same feeling for FR soon as I do for DL.  I hope they don't do the same to DS.      With there being 3 PHBs out already and 2 DMGs, I can only get three feelings: WotC is trying to fix all the mistakes with 4E book by book, they are wanting to milk people of their money, or a mix of both.  I'm hoping this doesn't happen to DS, because all the revisions will make the timeline and anything in DS a bore to say the least.      Is there an advanced timeline out somewhere like there was for FR?
#2 mouthymerc Mar 20, 2010 8:55:22	For more information on Psionics you'll need to check out the new PHB 3.  It contains the Psionic classes. With there being 3 PHBs out already and 2 DMGs, I can only get three feelings: WotC is trying to fix all the mistakes with 4E book by book, they are wanting to milk people of their money, or a mix of both.  I'm hoping this doesn't happen to DS, because all the revisions will make the timeline and anything in DS a bore to say the least. Or maybe they are expanding their game and giving more options.  To lambast a company for wanting to make money seems silly to me.  How else are they to stay in business if they do not keep producing material?  Feel free to dislike said material, but please do not treat it as something that they are trying to get over on us.  We want new material. And they are not fixing anything, that is what errata is for.  This are new options to expand on the playability of the game. Is there an advanced timeline out somewhere like there was for FR?  From all appearances the timeline is being set to just after the fall of Kalak.
#3 shiyongseng Mar 20, 2010 9:16:09	I don't lambast them for making money, every company needs to do that, but the way they milk people and destroy everything in the process is shameful. So a lot of what happened is going to be ignored after it was written in the novels?  I hope that's not true.  I hope they have more foresight this time and don't ruin another setting.  Add more stuff, sure, it's what people want, but the changes made don't have to be so radical to basically make a new system out of it and get rid of what most people fell in love with.
#4 xlorep_darkhelm Mar 20, 2010 10:52:46	I don't lambast them for making money, every company needs to do that, but the way they milk people and destroy everything in the process is shameful. So a lot of what happened is going to be ignored after it was written in the novels?  I hope that's not true.  I hope they have more foresight this time and don't ruin another setting.  Add more stuff, sure, it's what people want, but the changes made don't have to be so radical to basically make a new system out of it and get rid of what most people fell in love with. I get the distinct impression you don't like WotC or 4E all that much, based on your 2 posts in this thread. There are some of us that do like it, however, please keep that in mind.
#5 mouthymerc Mar 20, 2010 11:30:29	I don't lambast them for making money, every company needs to do that, but the way they milk people and destroy everything in the process is shameful. Seems rather arbitrary.  How are they "milking" people and destroying everything?  For you it may be "milking" but for many others it is giving them what they want.  And if the majority are happy then they are producing a worthy product.  So far, for the most part, everyone seems pumped for what little we've been exposed to about Dark Sun.  As we get into more previews we'll get an even better idea.  Only time and the actual product will tell for sure. So a lot of what happened is going to be ignored after it was written in the novels?  I hope that's not true.  I hope they have more foresight this time and don't ruin another setting.  Add more stuff, sure, it's what people want, but the changes made don't have to be so radical to basically make a new system out of it and get rid of what most people fell in love with. With Forgotten Realms they decided to jump ahead.  With Dark Sun they decided to reset.  I don't know what they did with Eberron as I have never looked that close at it.  One of the least liked aspects of the game, for me, was its tying to the novels.  I ignored it then and I'll ignore it now, if needs be.  This time around the designers seem intent on creating a setting which can be used rather than telling a story.
#6 shiyongseng Mar 20, 2010 12:54:39	You're right, I don't like them. When I was growing up I loved D&D, it got me interested in reading when I was in school, and then of course from there, playing.  I lost interest in Dragonlance because of what they did to the world, and I'm quickly losing interest in FR from what the've done.  I, along with all my gaming friends have lost interest in what WotC have done to D&D as a whole with 4E.  Now I feel they are going to destroy another setting.  Everyone wants to do reboots these days, like it will cover up their mistakes.  Movie producers are doing it, so why not jump on the bandwagon?  They should continue with what they've done and try to make it interesting again - like an Avangion getting through all of its transformations, or even a dragon that doesn't go crazy, more defiler dragons appearing from a far off land and battling a current one, or even something stronger (since 4E seems to be about power now - 30th lv.).  With a reboot they are messing up the timeline.  If they come out with more novels, I'll give it a try, but I'm not holding my breath when it comes to WotC. You say for me to keep in mind that some of you like what WotC have done, as you should keep in mind that there are many of us out there that do not.  Some call it trolling, but I don't see how it can be called that when customers have a voice- good or bad.  Unless I'm throwing curse words around it's far from trolling.  I just don't want to see DS made a bland world too.
#7 big_goon Mar 20, 2010 14:21:35	Doesn't a reboot have to reset everything, like move it 300 years in the future? They're just moving the timeline a little further along in the PP novels, but except for the city of Tyr, everything else is pretty much the same as the original release. I am also not at all worried about them messing up Dark Sun. I see it more as an opportunity - compared to a lot of other settings, Dark Sun has been given minimal attention in the past decade. At this point, they have little to lose. The strong fan base for Dark Sun, as well as the strong 4e fan base, will purchase enough copies of the Dark Sun setting to push it forward. They have little to lose in the DDI subscriptions, for the same reason. They aren't releasing very much material for the setting that "won't work" in one manner or another in another setting (be it a self-made apocolyptic world or a desert/wasteland area in another setting). Remark that WotC has made several attempts to market the Dark Sun books to "work in your own desert world". About the rate/speed of the release of material. I find this funny because I've been itching for them to release MORE - I don't think there is a single Dark Sun fan here on the forums that said "they've been releasing meterial too quickly". I mean, we still have to wait...5 months?... for Dark Sun to get released? Remember, the "only" thing they've released is core rules, Ebberron and FR. That's not a tremendious amount for a publishing company.
#8 mouthymerc Mar 20, 2010 16:25:27	I, along with all my gaming friends have lost interest in what WotC have done to D&D as a whole with 4E.  Now I feel they are going to destroy another setting.  If you do not like the direction, then your next best option is to play the Dark Sun AD&D2 game.  Or play the adaption at athas.org for 3rd.  It sounds to me that you've already made up your mind based on the fact that you do not care for 4E.  Hate to break it to you, but it is here to stay for a while, so i don't think that fact that you don't like the direction is going to be too effective.  But voice away if it helps. Everyone wants to do reboots these days, like it will cover up their mistakes.  Movie producers are doing it, so why not jump on the bandwagon? Reboots are not about fixing mistakes (although they can be).  They are about starting over with a fresh view.  This has been a ongoing phenomena in comics and movies.  Sometimes it is done well, sometimes not, and there will always be the naysayers there to tell you that they were right when they said it would be crap and shouldn't be done at all.  That's life.  Unless you try it you will never know if it will be successful. They should continue with what they've done and try to make it interesting again - like an Avangion getting through all of its transformations, or even a dragon that doesn't go crazy, more defiler dragons appearing from a far off land and battling a current one, or even something stronger (since 4E seems to be about power now - 30th lv.).  With a reboot they are messing up the time line.  If they come out with more novels, I'll give it a try, but I'm not holding my breath when it comes to WotC. Any of this stuff is going to be possible in a reboot.  No details of the timeline have been given out except vague notions, including that it will pick up shortly after the death of Kalak.  No state of the region has been put forth, nor any other details.  Anything is possible at this point.  I think that is what they are trying to present, a campaign with possibilities.  The original setting followed the novels so closely that in a short time 4 of the dragon-kings were disappeared (1 banished and 3 killed).  The campaign setting needed a fresh coat of paint. You say for me to keep in mind that some of you like what WotC have done, as you should keep in mind that there are many of us out there that do not.  Some call it trolling, but I don't see how it can be called that when customers have a voice- good or bad.  Unless I'm throwing curse words around it's far from trolling.  I just don't want to see DS made a bland world too. Nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure.  I take it all as it is intended keeping in mind your distaste for 4E and the fact that we really have little to go on just yet.
#9 Pennarin Mar 20, 2010 17:43:14	Nothing's to prevent one self from running a 4e DS game with the fluff - and accompanying crunch when modifications are possible - from the 2e setting. ...but it's also an opportunity to embrace change and perhaps be liberated by it. I sure want to have fun! Respecting canon, I'm discovering, is less and less at the top of my list.
#10 flip Mar 20, 2010 19:16:59	I love the logic here:  They bumped up the timeline of Forgotten Realms -- they killed the setting!  They moved the timeline for DS back -- they killed the setting! I'm also bemused by the recollection of just how violently many of us reacted to the setting changes in DS2.  For those who don't remember:  Many Were Not Pleased.  They're rolling it back to the time period that many of us liked to play in.  Don't like the reset?  Keep playing in FY10, nothing is stopping you.  It's actually easier to move the timeline forward, in this case, than it would be to move it back (backfilling stats for the Dragon and some 4 dead Sorcerer Kings, among other things) On the milking comment.  For the campaign settings, WotC is definately NOT milking us.  They're creating three books.  Three.  That's it.  Preordered on Amazon, I'm going to end up shelling out about $50.  They are most assuredly not milking the campaign settings.  TSR was king of milking the campaign settings, and it ended up fragmenting their audience so badly that it killed the company.  WotC's takeaway for 3e was  "don't do so damn many settings" ... There was discontent about the lack of support for $favorite_dead_setting.  So, their takeaway for 4e:  Do some core books, and make sure that everything in the "generic" line is cross-compatible, so everyone can use it.  So far, I'd say they're doing a decent job of it.
#11 greyorm Mar 20, 2010 21:13:39	I am soooooo tired of these stupid edition wars. What is it? Each generation of gamers has to repeat them ad nauseum like a bunch of mindless lemmings unable to stop jumping off that cliff? Forty years of the same nonsense is ridiculously tiring. Role-playing? Just a bunch of jerks trying to ruin wargaming! How dare they?! Sorry, flashback...did we ever resolve that one? Those dirty role-players got theirs, right? We showed them, yeah? Anyways. TSR was king of milking the campaign settings, and it ended up fragmenting their audience so badly that it killed the company. That, and piss-poor business management, due to a CEO who despised their audience so much she banned gaming on the premises of a game company (including playtesting) and enjoyed suing the fans as well as other game companies. Regardless, agreed with all that, Flip. Shi may not realize many of us were not happy at all with the 2E setting and the changes introduced by the novels, which killed the appeal of said setting by destroying/explaining away many of the core things that we found so captivating about Athas. In fact, I've been praying for years on these very forums that they "kill" the setting in the exact manner you are so upset with. I can't cheer loudly enough about their choice to finally do so! (Though, not knowing what is in the final product, I don't know how far they're going with it, and if things like Rajaat are going to be jammed down our throats or the history will be left mysterious and open to interpretation -- gods, I hope so! -- so there is a certain check on my enthusiasm.) A reboot in this case is ideal: a chance to do it right, or at least erase what was done wrong and give the setting its original integrity and points of interest back, add new ones, make the whole thing fresh. But...publishing additional rulebooks with additional rules is...somehow instead fixing rule mistakes in the previous rulebooks and so milking customers and destroying the game? Whatnow? That accusation makes no sense.
#12 xlorep_darkhelm Mar 20, 2010 23:01:12	I love the logic here:  They bumped up the timeline of Forgotten Realms -- they killed the setting!  They moved the timeline for DS back -- they killed the setting! I'm also bemused by the recollection of just how violently many of us reacted to the setting changes in DS2.  For those who don't remember:  Many Were Not Pleased.  They're rolling it back to the time period that many of us liked to play in.  Don't like the reset?  Keep playing in FY10, nothing is stopping you.  It's actually easier to move the timeline forward, in this case, than it would be to move it back (backfilling stats for the Dragon and some 4 dead Sorcerer Kings, among other things) On the milking comment.  For the campaign settings, WotC is definately NOT milking us.  They're creating three books.  Three.  That's it.  Preordered on Amazon, I'm going to end up shelling out about $50.  They are most assuredly not milking the campaign settings.  TSR was king of milking the campaign settings, and it ended up fragmenting their audience so badly that it killed the company.  WotC's takeaway for 3e was  "don't do so damn many settings" ... There was discontent about the lack of support for $favorite_dead_setting.  So, their takeaway for 4e:  Do some core books, and make sure that everything in the "generic" line is cross-compatible, so everyone can use it.  So far, I'd say they're doing a decent job of it. 100% agree. I don't think I could have put it any better.
#13 shiyongseng Mar 21, 2010 5:07:50	The jump ahead in the timeline didn't kill FR to me, it was the Spell Plague, the death of almost all key characters that made the world interesting, killing off half of the patheon, changing magic, making floating lands so it wasn't just unique with just the Shadowvar's two kingdoms (I felt that was one of the ideas that made them interesting), and many others.  It was too much at one time, and many people didn't like Shade and the princes coming back anyway, so it was all done horribly in a short amount of time - rather a jumble. To me a rewind is like saying 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!'  I do admit that when DS was most popular I was reading DL and FR, but I didn't mind the books for DS once read.  I wanted to look at a timeline because I know in some of the modules there were small stories, and I have not read all of those stories, so some information is missing to me.  When I did find timelines they stopped with Rajaat being re-imprisoned, but I read the book on Hammanu's death, so I thought it strange. Again, I don't feel a rewind is a chance to 'do it right', they should just deal with their mistakes by building on top of it, making it interesting again.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could rewind everything?  Go back a few years in our lives? Granted, this is a fantasy setting, but in our lives we learn from our mistakes to make a better future- without rewinds. The idea of milking people was because of three PHBs out in about, what, 2 years time?  None of the previous additions had this, correct?  They had other books to add to the system, but you didn't need those if you wanted to play core types.  Core types were left out of the 4E PHB 1, a few added to 2, now what's in 3?  I don't even want to look, because it stretches out what should have been in the first book.  The same thing with a DMG 2 so soon.  3x had the PHB, then the PHB 3.5, then the 3.5 PHB 2, but not in 2 years time - give or take a few months for what 4E has done.  Now we'll have to have all 3 4E PHB's along with the DS world book, DS PHB just to play, oh, and a Psionic guide - all to play the basic game. Thanks for the information, I'll be sure to check it out. I hope the novels in the future for DS are an interesting read, and that the rewind in the timeline turns out for the better. I just don't have a lot of faith in WotC though, but we'll see. They may not 'kitchen sink' it, but they could 'toilet bowl' it like FR/Dragonlance.
#14 mouthymerc Mar 21, 2010 8:24:13	They had other books to add to the system, but you didn't need those if you wanted to play core types.  Core types were left out of the 4E PHB 1, a few added to 2, now what's in 3?  I don't even want to look, because it stretches out what should have been in the first book.  The only core types needed were cleric, fighter, rogue and wizard.  They were all present.  I'm sure, though, that your version of what is core and mine are different.  The classes are more robust this time around so they had to keep the amount of them to the eight shown.  They wanted to change things up so rather than the same old classes the designers used relatively new classes to inject new energy into the game.  I think this was rather successful considering the uses of both the warlock and the warlord and how popular they are. The 3/3.5 PHB contained 11 classes with 20 levels; the 4E PHB contains 8 classes with 30 levels.  220 levels to the new 240 levels.  This was done so that the player only needed one book to play out his entire character, rather than the numerous books needed in earlier editions. It is completely debatable what should have been in the first PHB.  With different classes would it have done as well?  No way to say.  As it is it seems to have done just fine. 3x had the PHB, then the PHB 3.5, then the 3.5 PHB 2, but not in 2 years time - give or take a few months for what 4E has done.  Rose-coloured glasses, eh?  Are we forgetting all the "Complete" books that came out every year more or less?  This format is no surprise as it has been stated from the beginning that this was how they were going to do it.  Consecutive PHBs rather than class specific books (which are now the Power books to a certain degree). Now we'll have to have all 3 4E PHB's along with the DS world book, DS PHB just to play, oh, and a Psionic guide - all to play the basic game. DS Campaign book, Creature Catalog, and an adventure (Marauders of the Dune Sea, I think).  There will be no DS Player's Guide.  All information for playing characters will be contained in the Campaign guide.
#15 ian.thomson Mar 21, 2010 8:43:13	EDIT: mouthymerc hadn't posted by the time I started writing this... In 3e you had a bunch of other books that had new classes in them that were not called Player's Handbooks, but they cost just as much and had somewhere between a quarter or maybe half as much useful stuff.  4e is just lumping those classes into the PHBs and only releasing useful content in the PHBs.  Also, all the core types were included in 4e PHB1 - Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard.  Period.  Those are the core types, the additional stuff in 3e was additional, not standard. WotC didn't include the Bard, Sorcerer, and Barbarian because they were not finished at that time.  It would have been milking us to have released an unfinished product and then a few years later release the PHB 4.5 with a fixed Bard, instead of finishing it as much as they can and releasing errata if needed. Psionic classes have never been a part of the initial PHB of any edition, and that's mostly what's in the PHB3.  There is other stuff, but WotC was nice enough to put it there instead of Dragon magazine. If WotC really wanted to milk us, they would have released the PHB3 without power points and without the non-psionic stuff as the "psionics handbook" about a year after the PHB1 for $35, and then around now would be releasing the "expanded psionics handbook" with the power point system added in.  Then when Dark Sun came out, instead of just the campaign book and the monster book, they would release the "Dark Sun Campaign Setting", followed by "Monster Compendium: Monsters of Athas," followed by "Magic of Athas," "Sorcerer-Kings," "Elemental priests and Templars," "The Deadlands," "Races of Athas," "Unapproachable East"... and on and on.  Which is how they did stuff in 2e and 3e.  They aren't doing that in 4e. There is no "psionic guide," the PHB3 has the psionic stuff in it.  There is no Dark Sun PHB, there is the campaign guide, which contains info for both players and DMs.
#16 greyorm Mar 21, 2010 11:41:56	Wouldn't it be nice if we could rewind everything?  Go back a few years in our lives? Granted, this is a fantasy setting, but in our lives we learn from our mistakes to make a better future- without rewinds. Ignoring for the moment the confusion of real life with fiction, tell me of what possible benefit is it to not rewind, to not erase mistakes, when one has the ability to do so? Do you or did you, say, leave mistakes on your math homework after they were pointed out to you, instead of erasing and correcting them? At work or school, do you turn in the first draft of a project, instead of correcting and removing the mistakes you made in further revisions? Etc. Clearly, one does erase and correct and remove mistakes from one's work, rather than "incorporating" them, and the notion that one has to or should incorporate mistakes simply because some things in life are not erasable is a bizzare notion. It is absolutely goofy when talking about a fictional construct such as a game setting's history, characters, or other elements. But, really, whatever. You like the 2nd Edition material? Feel free to use it! Ain't no one gonna stop you. No matter how much you want them to, WotC's crack legal SWAT team will not kick down your door with a cease-and-desist in hand and force you to utilize 4E and 4E DS against your will so you can decry them as evil Nazi(tm) bastards bent on destroying the entire gaming industry while robbing everyone of their pocketbook. It's OK. You can use the 2nd Edition setting material.