!!!HERE'S THE SPOILER!!!
The scene where Agis, Sadira and Ktandeo are fleeing the Templar's in the caverns of Under Tyr, and Ktandeo leads them to a "Temple of the Ancients." A Wraith appears at the door and Ktandeo is allowed to pass through because he's "pure." Agis and Sadira could not enter the Temple. Inside the Temple candles were lit and Ktandeo says they're never extinquished because of the ancients undying faith.
Now the conversation happens where they discuss the gods of the ancients and Ktandeo responds with, "Like all glories of the past, they faded away. No one knows why."
Yet the candles remain lit on "faith." My question is...how is this possible in a world with no gods? Does this mean there is a god somewhere still lurking around hoping for a better future for Athas? Is Divinity not completely dead from Athas? Could there be hope that the gods may be returning? Or should I just not look in to it too much?
This chapter got me thinking of a great adventure I could write where the PC's learn about the Ancient world of Athas where gods did exist, but if I'm to do that it'd have to make sense on a world with no Gods. I don't think I can really get away with telling my players, "The candles are lit through faith." on a world with no gods. Hence why I'm so confused as to how this Temple of the Ancients exists in its current form under Tyr.
I would love some input and opinions on this scene as I find it very intriguing.
Btw, there were no gods at all in 2E's Dark Sun. The scene is there for you to understand that Ktandeo speaks of beings being worshipped in the past as gods, and that modern-day Tyrians consider Kalak a god, thus the author is compairing these ancient gods to, say, the Olympian Gods. Were those real? No, yet millions sacrificed to them daily, and raised temples to their effigies.
I've always been a big fan of no deities. It makes the world more raw and visceral to worship the elements and have no higher beings. It leaves the PCs and the world itself on its own with no outside help and at the mercy of the dragon and SKs. You have to do it yourself, by your bootstraps, because no god will save you.
I have a related question: the wotc designers have proclaimed that the Divine power source is not available. That players cannot worship gods, and thus cannot be Divine classes.
But isn't this particular story a good indication that the Divine power source is present? (unless, like Alphasteam1 said, it was an illusion) Even without Gods, couldn't one potentially gain power through blind faith?
Or, does the power exist only in the Grey and one can only really gain power through undeath (see like Dwarven banshees, elven Dune Runners, etc)?
A raaig's unlife is sustained by his faith...in his god(s), whether the god is real or not. Some 2E books described raaigs as having cleric spells (which they would have gained upon becoming undead, a boon of unlife), while other books didn't describe raaigs this way, and even other books that retconned known raaigs.
Oh, this is a really cool and important topic.
I have a related question: the wotc designers have proclaimed that the Divine power source is not available. That players cannot worship gods, and thus cannot be Divine classes.
But isn't this particular story a good indication that the Divine power source is present? (unless, like Alphasteam1 said, it was an illusion) Even without Gods, couldn't one potentially gain power through blind faith?
Or, does the power exist only in the Grey and one can only really gain power through undeath (see like Dwarven banshees, elven Dune Runners, etc)?
Undeath doesn't require a divine power source. For all we know, the Dwarven Banshees and Elven Dunerunners could have been the result of some event in the past that forever altered those races to produce such undead beings.
There are quite a number of millenia of history to Athas.
I would not do that today.
I find it interesting in a world with magic that there would be faith in something that doesn't exist. Or that those with magic didn't go looking for the gods.
turlough
You have just stumbled on Dark Sun's little secret, that human emotion and dedication are stronger than death, stronger than the dissolution of the Gray, and thus can sustain you into undeath...and the undead have weird and mystical powers, like keeping candles burning forever.
Btw, there were no gods at all in 2E's Dark Sun. The scene is there for you to understand that Ktandeo speaks of beings being worshipped in the past as gods, and that modern-day Tyrians consider Kalak a god, thus the author is compairing these ancient gods to, say, the Olympian Gods. Were those real? No, yet millions sacrificed to them daily, and raised temples to their effigies.
I really like this explanation as it makes sense with everything else we've been presented with for this world. Pennarin also makes a great comparison with the real worlds ancients and the gods they worshipped such as the Olympian Gods as he states. This little fact helps me better grasp what was happening on Athas, where as before I was thinking on just a D&D level which is, (if there's faith, there's Divine Power). I think I was forgetting that Athas truly is different from all other realms and thus works differently with out gods.
From the undead that we do see on Athas, it's about the power of that persons will to allow them to continue their "life" in unlife to hopefully fulfill what they needed to accomplish. The example of the Dwarven Banshees, and Elven Dune Runners by Big Goon supports this argument. As suggested by Alphasteam with the explanation above, the ability to sustain lit candles through that "faith" or power of will they're able to keep the candles lit till their faith ends.
Now the question is, is there any undead on Athas that don't meet those requirements? Dregoth fits those requirements as far as I remember, but what about the Caller in Darkness? What about the obsidian wastes south of the Tyr region and the Undead city? Does that all fit the requirements of dedication and the will to live beyond death to complete a greater focus? Time for me to bust out some more of my old 2e boxed sets.
From the undead that we do see on Athas, it's about the power of that persons will to allow them to continue their "life" in unlife to hopefully fulfill what they needed to accomplish. The example of the Dwarven Banshees, and Elven Dune Runners by Big Goon supports this argument. As suggested by Alphasteam with the explanation above, the ability to sustain lit candles through that "faith" or power of will they're able to keep the candles lit till their faith ends.
I should add to this that we should remember that faith and will have not sustained or saved living people in the real world (besides religious beliefs), but that our fictional litterature has some characters that wanted their faith and will to help or save them, to no avail, and were instead empowered upon their death, coming back as a much more deadly and capable ghost, or Vlad coming back as a vampire (God and his priesthood couldn't or wouldn't save his wife, yet the powers of darkness rewarded him handsomly upon his death).
Now the question is, is there any undead on Athas that don't meet those requirements? Dregoth fits those requirements as far as I remember, but what about the Caller in Darkness? What about the obsidian wastes south of the Tyr region and the Undead city? Does that all fit the requirements of dedication and the will to live beyond death to complete a greater focus? Time for me to bust out some more of my old 2e boxed sets.
No, many an undead are the result of a curse, or the intervention of a powerful Gray being, or owe their existence to a flimsy explanation like "a few of those who die of thirst in the Salt Flats rise as salt zombies". The rest, like morgs, kaishargas, and t'lizes, are self-empowered through rituals performed before death.
Now the question is, is there any undead on Athas that don't meet those requirements? Dregoth fits those requirements as far as I remember, but what about the Caller in Darkness? What about the obsidian wastes south of the Tyr region and the Undead city? Does that all fit the requirements of dedication and the will to live beyond death to complete a greater focus? Time for me to bust out some more of my old 2e boxed sets.
The Deadlands are a bizarre situation (the Obsidian wastes, as you call them). In a sense, they were all cursed by the crazy attempt at interdimentional magic that was performed there (I can't go into too much detail about it, due to the restrictions placed on certain sourcebook materials that never were completed), but also in a sense due to the nature of the Obsidian Plains. In 4E terms, the obsidian there would have most likely come from the Shadowfell, poured out into the material plane of Athas, and corrupts those who die upon it into rising back as undead.
Now the question is, is there any undead on Athas that don't meet those requirements? Dregoth fits those requirements as far as I remember, but what about the Caller in Darkness? What about the obsidian wastes south of the Tyr region and the Undead city? Does that all fit the requirements of dedication and the will to live beyond death to complete a greater focus? Time for me to bust out some more of my old 2e boxed sets.
The Deadlands are a bizarre situation (the Obsidian wastes, as you call them). In a sense, they were all cursed by the crazy attempt at interdimentional magic that was performed there (I can't go into too much detail about it, due to the restrictions placed on certain sourcebook materials that never were completed), but also in a sense due to the nature of the Obsidian Plains. In 4E terms, the obsidian there would have most likely come from the Shadowfell, poured out into the material plane of Athas, and corrupts those who die upon it into rising back as undead.
OK, knowing this unknown and knowing I know I won't get to know it... is a terrible thing.
What sourcebook is this?
You have just stumbled on Dark Sun's little secret, that human emotion and dedication are stronger than death, stronger than the dissolution of the Gray, and thus can sustain you into undeath...and the undead have weird and mystical powers, like keeping candles burning forever.
Btw, there were no gods at all in 2E's Dark Sun. The scene is there for you to understand that Ktandeo speaks of beings being worshipped in the past as gods, and that modern-day Tyrians consider Kalak a god, thus the author is compairing these ancient gods to, say, the Olympian Gods. Were those real? No, yet millions sacrificed to them daily, and raised temples to their effigies.
minor quibbling point of clarification here: You're claiming impossible knowledge with the above statement about the Olympian Gods. :P
I won't make it a religious discussion, and thus risk closure. Just thought I'd mention that.
and to a later comment about will having never sustained or saved anyone in real life, not true. Maybe not in the way you may be thinking of it, but sheer will power can allow you to do things that your body would normally shut down rather than allow, and even survive far longer than a logical person would expect. In a world where most people have some psionic abillity, it's hardly a jump to conclude that will power can do some crazy crap, albeit, not that often.
And besides a few weirdos who may or may not be sincere, Greek Gods worship is a dead religion.
And yes, in regard to will power, Athas is like Earth: will power will not save you unless you spontaneously develop a wild talent that can (and psionics on Earth are pseudo-science). But becoming undead is another matter on Athas, as it seems that will power has a lot more weight there than when you're alive.
Actually Pen, Hellenismos (as the belief is now called) is having a resurgence in Greece. But that is neither here nor there in regards to the topic.
I would feel more comfortable referring S-K worship to Pharonic worship, as the Pharos became actual deities after their mortal death in Ancient Egyptian Mythos.
As for faith on Athas, of course things work miracles - powers (magic/elemental/psionic) exist on that world, unlike here on Planet Dirt.
And I did not refer to SK-worship as similar to the Olympian gods, rather I was compairing the more ancient worship of gods during the Green Age as being like Olympian gods.
And sorry if I sound aggressive, I got an headache at work
Please, Doctor, you indeed are making it into such a conversation. Sheer will power in the real world won't give you magical powers to alter reality, is what I'm stating. If so all rapists and kidnappers would fry at one point or another, killed by their victims, for if there's people in life that are polarized into very strong emotions it's victims of violent/hateful crimes.
And besides a few weirdos who may or may not be sincere, Greek Gods worship is a dead religion.
And yes, in regard to will power, Athas is like Earth: will power will not save you unless you spontaneously develop a wild talent that can (and psionics on Earth are pseudo-science). But becoming undead is another matter on Athas, as it seems that will power has a lot more weight there than when you're alive.
as long as it stays acedemic, I'm fine. that was all I wanted, was to avoid it going into closure territory.
Anyway, as someone who practices Asatru, I tend to roll my eyes at "other than a few wierdos who may or may not...etc." arguments about ancient religions. not because it offends my faith, because it doesn't, but rather because I've spoken to and gotten to know enough "pagans" or various sorts that I'm as positive as I can be that enough of them are sincere that it's really not an issue.
Either way, there's nothing strange(in athas) about the concept of the collective will of a large number of people creating divine or divine like effects, and then sustaining them after the group has died out.
sounds like something that someone who names themselves after a david edding character would do. :D
And yes, in regard to will power, Athas is like Earth: will power will not save you unless you spontaneously develop a wild talent that can (and psionics on Earth are pseudo-science). But becoming undead is another matter on Athas, as it seems that will power has a lot more weight there than when you're alive.
I find that comment strange as many ghost stories and legends in our world over the centuries specifically relate to the concept of a soul being unable to pass onto it's final rest due to something specific like an unforgiven slight, unfinished business, a lost love, etc....
Athas is a fictional world, not a real one - but from a conceptual story perspective the idea that a soul becomes a ghost/undead due to strong willpower and an unwillingness to let go makes perfect sense to me.
If the concept is something that people put stock into in the real world (even if you don't agree with it) when we don't have conclusive magic, psionics, etc..., how odd is it that the concept would exist in a fantasy world like Athas?
D&D souls are idealized formless things - neither living, dead, or undead. In regular D&D those souls pass through the reach of the Raven Queen on their way to unknowable places, and only a few such souls get turned around and made into undead.
On Athas, when people die they become undead. All souls on Athas become undead spirits inside the Gray. Those spirits, not necessarily evil or good, or tortured or rested, eventually get dissolved by the plane.
Those dead that were strong-willed have their spirit survive dissolution longer. If it's even stronger willed, it gains powers, or instead becomes a corporeal undead on Athas, and all those types of undead - in the Gray, and on Athas - are powerful compared to a normal Athasian. The stronger the will, or need, or dedication, the stronger the undead you become.
When I said: "But becoming undead is another matter on Athas, as it seems that will power has a lot more weight there than when you're alive.", I stated that the living Athasian gains no powers, no special resistance, no insight, no connection to powers beyond, by being strong or weak willed. Willpower, when alive, is a characteristic of your personality; it may drive you or sway others, but it won't allow you to levitate out of the pit in which you've fallen and broken your leg. Once you've died in that pit, though...and you really wanted to finish that mission of yours...that's another matter entirely.
Clearer?