I was thinking about Dark Sun, Exalted and warforged for some reason and trying to figure out how warforged could work.
The first thought I had was that metal warforged don't work. Well, they could and it could be used to explain why there isn't much metal now, although where they all went would be a question. But, as I understand it, warforged were created to fight. In that case, it makes sense they were created with the best materials to withstand attacks, which was metal.
For Athas, though, what if they were made from bone, obsidian or wood? In two of those cases, they could be "alive" in that they need energy of some sort, defiling can hurt them, but like the thri kreen, it's not as important anymore. Again, we don't want to penalize them with an impossible idea, that they need more wood or bone to fix themselves when it would be tough to get or find, but it's a base. They could have an living element, perhaps the bone or wood versions are still alive in some sense, and so poison could hurt them. And they need food but maybe the sun gives them a lot of what they need but darkness, and cutting off the sun, is bad?
I guess my thought was about the Alchemicals of Exalted, which are constructs of the magical materials of the world. That led me to the logical thought of warforged in Athas being the same, made of living materials of what was present. Maybe this was the living materials? Maybe the first warforged were people who melded with wood or bone, first as a cover, but then it took over? Maybe later creators skipped the first host? What if some didn't? What if some creators took the life force of a person and put it in a forged body?
My thought was more that there is lots of potential there and rather than lose that, I was trying to find a way to make it fit into the world.
Any other ideas or thoughts like this?
I did search for it's own thread but didn't find one. My apologies if it already exists.
turlough
IMO, Warforged don't work in Dark Sun. You would have to change the background of the setting too much to allow for the inclusion of them, much like my view of shifters, Eladrin, gnomes, drow...
That being said, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that during the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat and the Champions developed the Warforged to fight in their armies. The remnants of these magical constructs, what people call the Warforged, could be personal servants of the Sorceror-Kings. Or the characters could run into an ancient Warforged in an ancient ruin/dungeon. Having never encountered such a creature, they could then try and research it and uncover some hidden truths about the history of Athas (99% of people on Athas have no idea of the planets history.) In this case I would use Warforged as NPC's and surprise monsters to fight, but dissallow PC Warforged.
Well, it seems I didn't have to change the background setting that much at all =) Regardless, it's your game and anything you deem appropriate is correct. Such is the might and power of the DM!
Stuff the official history, decide it for your own game 
a) they are constructs of orgnaic and obsidian. Chitin and bone, agafari wood, etc?
b) made by the Sorceror Kings, or an ancient sorceror king who's now dead (several dead citiesare alluded to int he 1st boxed set).
C) they coudl be anything:
maybe psionicists place their minds into them before death
maybe they were an attmept to make people (or vessels) able to survive the deadly heat and lack of water of Athas...
bodyguards of defilers.
A complete mystery even to themselves!
you can imagine such creatures hiding their identities, working secretly for the sorceror kings, or the Veiled Alliance..hidden by psionics or skilled disguise or working in aeras unfit for living beings...are they know, shunned, feared or lusted after as valuable, or with jealousy as they no no thirst or hunger?
Don't let the offcial history etc force you as DM or player into a striaghtjacket.
yes, metla is rareon Athas, TODAY, but not perhaps in the past, and no one says you can't have warforged made out of non-metal, as they have organic materials anyway.
;)
IMO, Warforged don't work in Dark Sun. You would have to change the background of the setting too much to allow for the inclusion of them, much like my view of shifters, Eladrin, gnomes, drow...
First off just to be clear I'm against genre contamination;
But actually with the effects of the Pristine Tower, Shifters and/or Changelings could easily merge in to Athas as some divergent sub-species that had set up camp near or in the forests surrounding the tower, figuring the random mutations to be a reasonable price for a reliable water source and security. Eventually the effects started to become predicable and controllable. They have remained an unknown due to the fears of the areas effect by others and the lack of any real need to travel outside of the area (as there is food and water available locally), that could also lead to a xenophobic culture unwilling to contact the outside world.
There is evidence of hidden outsider cultures beyond the known City-states and villages, the Pyreen have to come from someplace (yes I know where) and the Vichilli are know to inhabit someplace in the (IIRC) Ring Mts. but the exact location is unknown. Those are just from the first rules set, the second edition box set introduced three new cities/governments and an empire to the west.
IMO, Warforged don't work in Dark Sun. You would have to change the background of the setting too much to allow for the inclusion of them, much like my view of shifters, Eladrin, gnomes, drow...
I disagree, given the existence of psionic constructs, such as those found in the Last Sea region, and artifacts such as the Obsidian Man of Urik, etc. (One could even make a case for Warforged being elemental or druidic spirits given form.)
I think that this has already been discussed elsewhere, but I think they could easily be worked in as Rhulisti creations. That is made by halfling lifeshapers, either ancient relics or recent creations from the jagged cliffs. I could easily see the latter incorporating chitin and wood into a lifeshaped design.
For the record I don't like the concept warforged in DS.
With that said, you could put a spin on it that they were created by the Order as a slave/servitor type race.
It seems as if there are various thoughts on this.
They don't fit because they weren't in the original boxed set. Okay, but is that a reason to keep them out now? A living creature made of wood, obsidian or, rarely, metal seems that it could fit with the history and mythology of the life shapers. However, life shapers also aren't in the original boxed set. That seems to lead us to a very fixed version of what should or should not be in there.
I disagree with it, as well. When the original boxed set came out, RPG design was still relatively new and DND was wargaming, not role playing. I don't want to play in a world that is constrained by that thinking. For example, I think we can agree that starting at 3rd level in the boxed set was to give the characters a better chance to survive what was a tough world. I hope we can agree that's not needed anymore with 4E. Hopefully, then, we can relook at other things and update them but still have it be Dark Sun.
It doesn't fit the style/theme/feel of Dark Sun. I have a tough time with this one because I have asked several times in various boards and forums and no one can give a good answer as to what Dark Sun's style, theme or feel is. We all seem to have our own idea of it and with ten years of no official support, although athas.org did a great job, we have all created our own versions of Dark Sun. That's not bad.
Again, I think that the game designers of today will give us a much better explanation of what they think Dark Sun is and let us go from there. I think Dark Sun and 4E are a good fit and I cannot wait to see what they do. Further, I want a modern version of it, not something from nearly twenty years ago.
Getting back to warforged, they could not only fit but fit better than anything else, in my opinion. They were created to help the wars, either side. They were created as assassins to take out particular individuals, whether as part of the cleansing war or not. Further, it's not like we can't add more. Maybe they all have inherent weaknesses introduced to make them controllable. (And that always works, doesn't it?)
Dark Sun needs to be mysterious. Okay, this one is tough to argue with but I don't completely agree with it. Mysterious, yes, but it also needs to be playable. It needs to have areas that the DM can explore on their own but common mysteries with several main explanations. If all we have are a bunch of mysteries, and the DM has to explain everything, then the game designers didn't do as well as they could have, imo. I don't want to do that much work! That's their job! I want a fun world in which to set adventures.
That doesn't mean that everything needs to be explained. But some explanation can lead to more mysteries while still being playable. That's what is needed.
For example, I think they need to definitively state what caused the destruction of the planet. I think they need to say if life shapers exist and how they came about. They need to explain why it's not part of the multiverse, if they keep that, and what dramatic purpose it solves by doing so. But, they don't need to explain every ruin, every new race or every little thing. Just the big ones. They need the main timeline but not every single year detailed.
So, I guess I am looking for niches for the warforged to occupy and have that. btw, I am not an eberron fan and have never played a warforged nor had a player who did. But, as I said, I think they do fit, or can fit, Dark Sun well and was looking for some ideas on it. I got that and I think you for them!
turlough
The reason I don't like the concept of warforged in DS (or any other setting) is that its a staple race for the Ebberon campaign. While its a cool race I just have issue with it being included offically in DS.
It would be like avangions being officially indoctrinated into the Forgotten Realms. Sure, a logical explanation could be concocted to justify their existence in that setting without a doubt, but IMO all that does is tarnish their uniqueness in DS.
The reason I don't like the concept of warforged in DS (or any other setting) is that its a staple race for the Ebberon campaign. While its a cool race I just have issue with it being included offically in DS.
It would be like avangions being officially indoctrinated into the Forgotten Realms. Sure, a logical explanation could be concocted to justify their existence in that setting without a doubt, but IMO all that does is tarnish their uniqueness in DS.
Okay, I can understand that. Thanks!
turlough
I don't think it's very hard to pin down the flavor of Dark Sun:
It's post-apocolyptic, low-tech, sword & sandal and dystopian. Not only did the original boxed set paint the picture very clearly it is also what got everyone on board the setting and garnered so much acclaim. The later boxed set really muddied the waters and kind of lost the plot IMHO.
One of the biggest elements that pulled me in was how different of a setting this was. D&D has so many creatures that omission is needed to give a setting a distinctive feeling.
At most, there should only be sidebars explaining how X could be introduced into Athas. That allows cross selling of all the books and lets players decide if they want to include rules that are 'optional' for Dark Sun without finger painting all over the newly restored Mona Lisa!
I'd like to keep (and share with new players) the original vision that attracted me so much in the beginning.
I don't think it's very hard to pin down the flavor of Dark Sun:
It's post-apocolyptic, low-tech, sword & sandal and dystopian. Not only did the original boxed set paint the picture very clearly it is also what got everyone on board the setting and garnered so much acclaim. The later boxed set really muddied the waters and kind of lost the plot IMHO.
One of the biggest elements that pulled me in was how different of a setting this was. D&D has so many creatures that omission is needed to give a setting a distinctive feeling.
At most, there should only be sidebars explaining how X could be introduced into Athas. That allows cross selling of all the books and lets players decide if they want to include rules that are 'optional' for Dark Sun without finger painting all over the newly restored Mona Lisa!
I'd like to keep (and share with new players) the original vision that attracted me so much in the beginning.
Okay, I get that. I think I am not a big fan of post apocolyptic, mainly because I only see it as being the downward slide to everything ending. But that is a good description of it and I need to remember that for my own game.
Thanks!
turlough
Okay, I get that. I think I am not a big fan of post apocolyptic, mainly because I only see it as being the downward slide to everything ending. But that is a good description of it and I need to remember that for my own game.Thanks!
turlough
Well then turlough, maybe Dark Sun isn't the game world for you. I'd suggest you try one of the more optimistic settings.
When the original boxed set came out, RPG design was still relatively new and DND was wargaming
The original DS boxed set came out in late 1991. A good twenty years after RPGs had made the break from wargaming, also the decade in which White Wolf's Storyteller system made its debut and when "purple prose" and "role-not-role" and "story before mechanics" was all the rage in gaming circles.
Well then turlough, maybe Dark Sun isn't the game world for you. I'd suggest you try one of the more optimistic settings.
No, I disagree. I like everything up to it. My version of it will be the PCs, over the course of many campaigns, slowly saving the world and bringing it back. Partially. That's been my thought.
I am merely asking tons o' questions to get other details sorted out. The bad thing about the new way they are doing settings is that it doesn't have a detailed timeline and I still have to do a fair amount of work. In contrast, when the timeline of the Realms came out, I could flip to any page, read an entry, and build something around that, with the basic details already done for me. Now, I have to do those basic details as well.
For the most part, I like that! Don't get me wrong! I also don't mind a society that's sliding backward and the PCs are there to help. (Exalted does this a lot and in some ways could be post apocolyptic but without the extreme environments except near the wyld.) What I am more saying is that, since Dark Sun didn't get much work on it, as others have said, Rajaat has been the one that has been developed. But, he existed over a very LONG period of time and there had to have been mortal movers and shakers, kings and queens, petty tyrants, that did things at various points as well. That's the kind of information that I think would be more helpful because then I don't have to touch Rajaat at all!
Hopefully this makes sense. Thanks for all of the ideas!
turlough