Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 phaaf_glien Jan 13, 2009 14:53:40	In the adventure module Freedom (everyone's favorite), there is a mention of a "chief templar" who is differentiated from Tithian, a high templar of two high bureaus. His name is not given. Was this man a subordinate of Tithian's, or was he the most senior templar in the city, who filled the so-called "Senior Templar" position later held by Timor (or perhaps held by Timor even then)? The pertinent lines from Freedom, in Part Four, Section A, Proclamation, are as follows: "That evening, before the meal is served, the chief templar (not High Templar Tithian) appears above the slave pits, accompanied by lesser templars. Half-giant guards circulate among the slaves, shouting for silence and clubbing those who disobey..." In my view, it would be very useful to come up with a working hierarchy or rank structure for the templars of all the cities, as such a system would be very useful in actually playing in any of the city states. Understanding the various governmental systems, responsibilities, etc., would be very useful indeed. Thoughts on the "chief templar"?
#2 Pennarin Jan 13, 2009 16:35:12	Here the chief templar is the highest ranked templar in charge of the brick manufacturing operation, whatever his actual rank is within the templarate. "Chief" as in highest ranked, in opposition to lesser templars. High templar is another matter; "high" is a title. Besides, none of the normal places - supplements, novels - mentions any other high-ranked templar position besides "high".
#3 Kynesis Jan 13, 2009 19:21:37	Specific structures will differ between cities, some of the city cultures are pretty extreme and have had quite a while to develop their own specialties. Despite their differences though, it's likely that they're all developed from a base concept and structure, it's highly unlikely that each Sorcerer King figured out and implemented their own templarate structure that just happens to be similar to each other city. They'd also likely have influenced one-another as they developed... I wonder if there are real world historical references we could extrapolate from. edit: obviously I don't mean 'real world templars' but there may well be supporting governmental / utility orders somewhere who a ruler relied on and essentially did the hands-on work of building and maintaining law and infrastructure of a city. We could probably piece together a references from novels, but they'd be included for the sake of their stories rather than to show the basis of a fully functioning templarate... templarate template.. hmm I don't suppose we have any political scientists, archeologists, sociologists or professional city planners who could throw in a few key requirements... (can't hurt to ask). It might be best (if you're going to attempt it) to focus on a single city that's most easily understood (Tyr, Urik or Balic) and later refine from that work the likely model of the base template.
#4 phaaf_glien Jan 13, 2009 19:36:06	Kynesis, thank you for your thoughtful response. Indeed, historical examples might be useful, but they must take a back seat to whatever canon we can glean. While I might sympathize with your view on the "chief" Pennarin, you do not substantiate your statement. Where do you get your information? I would side with it myself, but... how do we get there?
#5 Pennarin Jan 13, 2009 22:20:42	You provided a quote, I provided an analysis. "That evening, before the meal is served, the chief templar appears above the slave pits, accompanied by lesser templars. Half-giant guards circulate among the slaves, shouting for silence and clubbing those who disobey..." Sounded like an accurate analysis to me...
#6 aini Jan 20, 2009 7:56:20	Chief templar is likely another word for the senior templar of that area. My understanding of Templar society is that there are several 'high templars' each with designated sphere of influence/responsibilities and report directly to the king (or after kings death, directly to a templar minister which is Timor). These are the following 'Senior Templar' positions from the City State of Tyr 2nd edition suppliment. Administration - supervises templar scribes who maintain records and communication between other departments. The Arena - administers stadium functions. Fields - responsible for agricultural and farming concerns. Finance - tax collecting and treasury. Gardens - maintains and patrols the king's gardens. Mines - supervises the operations of Tyr's iron mines. Public Works - in charge of construction of public and private structures within the city. Security - in charge of intelligence operations. State - in charge of ambassadorial relations with other city-states and external powers. Trade - regulates businesses within the city. Water - oversees Tyr's wells and supplies. During earlier era while Kalak is still building his zigurat (ie the Freedom module) i would expect Tithian being high templar of the Arena, and later the Kings works likely is the same as public works but entirely focused on the zigurat, with other templars in other roles all reporting to the king as you see in the novels.
#7 Pennarin Jan 20, 2009 17:04:28	Do you remember where it says templar minister? I don't recall that term, but sounds like a good idea.
#8 Band2 Jan 21, 2009 12:17:23	Do you remember where it says templar minister? I don't recall that term, but sounds like a good idea. In City-State of Tyr on page 9, the organization of the templars is discussed. Timor's title is given as Senior Templar and Minister of Tyr. That section also refers to the head templar of each Bureau as a minister, though I am not sure that it is using minister as a title or as another way of saying manager. It does give the head templar of each Bureau a title as Senior Templar.
#9 Pennarin Jan 21, 2009 13:11:34	So the novels and books interchangeably use High Templar of and Minister of to speak of the chief templar of each Bureau...interesting. So they all answer to the King of Tyr, or if he's dead then to the Minister of Tyr.