Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ultimate_cap Sep 02, 2010 14:48:35	I know we've discussed this before, but wanted to re-hash it now that the DSCG is out.  How would you fit Angels and Devils into a DS campaign? I had this vision that they still exist, but no longer have dieties to serve, thus they fight among themselves for power, some even claiming godhood themselves. Some setting/theme questions I'd like some feedback and opinions on...  Where would they reside?  If the gods are gone, are were the angels and devils cast from the "planes above" (the heavens and hells) and banished to Athas?  According to the DSCB, those planes are pretty much inaccessible, so I'm guessing they would have to exist on Athas, somewhere?  Perhaps some seek to return? Do they (angels and devils) know what happend to the gods?  According to the book, we know the gods no longer exist (does the book say exactly what happened to them?  I cannot recall).  I would assume they do not know either (and honestly, there's really no reason to have to explain it). How would they view the people of Athas?  In my vision, they vary from indifferent, to hostile.  Some blame the state of the world on the mortal kind inhabiting Athas and seek to punish them.  Others are sad, solitary begins who conisder this world thier punishment for some past failure, or lost in depression over thier current state, cast from thier former glory.  If Warlocks in the standard PHB get powers from deals with devils (and devils are basically fallen angels) would warlock in DS be able to make pacts with devils and angels?  Or would they still be limited to sorcerer kings?  (or, perhpas, could some of the sorcerer kings actually be angels or devils themselves?). Would it be feasible in such a setting to re-introduce deva's as fallen angels?  Angels that, distraught with thier exhile, lost faith, or some other element, gave up, thier status as angels (or devils) and live among mortalkind (now as a deva)? Thoughts and feedback much appreciated.  Thanks!
#2 Pennarin Sep 02, 2010 16:01:55	The Creature Catalog Raaig entry mentions the most powerful of the three variants is still imbued with divine power, and they are often accompanied by angels, the only remaining ones on Athas (others might still be found in the Astral, beyond the Gray's barrier).
#3 ultimate_cap Sep 02, 2010 16:05:05	The Creature Catalog Raaig entry mentions the most powerful of the three variants is still imbued with divine power, and they are often accompanied by angels, the only remaining ones on Athas (others might still be found in the Astral, beyond the Gray's barrier). Oh, cool, I'll have to check that out!
#4 ian.thomson Sep 03, 2010 11:31:33	For my campaign: Residence: Devils are hiding in the shadowfell, as according to the book (they may have a chunk of Asmodeus with them, or not).  The astral sea, if referred to, is going to be called "the outer dark," following the cosmology in the Conan stories.  Angels would probably come across to the average Athasian the way a Yithian (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yithian) would to any 1920s private investigator.  By the time you realize they're here to help you instead of probe or eat you, you've gone insane.  Course, that's if you encounter an angel that's still good or lawful good. More likely, you're likely to be dealing with something that's a cross between the older Fay (like in Changeling: The Lost) and the Gnostic demiurge (all leading to "we're gonna screw with your sense of reality just to make us feel better," which would allow the players to visit another setting if they wanted, but return if they wanted to get back to Athas). ((Course, if any of my players are reading this, Brandon can attest that I usually don't remember anything I plan for RPGs for more than a month or so.)) Remember the gods?: The gods were destroyed or scattered (if any exist, it'll be Asmodeus, Torog, Tharizdun, Zehir, and Vecna).  If anyone besides the primordials knew (... If they're not busy being inanimate forces to remember), it'd be the angels and devils that served the gods.  Unless they're not really truely immortal (which would explain the Devas' desire to get caught in a cycle of reincarnation). How they view people: Devils would probably not be especially changed in their views of people, although they might be a little more lenient in contracts with warlocks just so they can get their power out there.  Most angels would probably be along the lines of "I've given up on the rest of existance, don't bother me or I'll whack you with this non-euclidian geometric figure I call a sword."  The LG or G ones would probably be happy for the company, perhaps too eager to keep it. Warlock pacts: Still there.  I'm gonna run the SKs as the SKs, but if the PCs leave the Tyr region, they may find a city run by an angelic or diabolic ruler. Devas: In my campaign, devas are extinct, but if a player wants to play one, then they're an apostate rakshasa reincarnated.  Only that deva and the Rakshasas would realize that that's the original form, everyone else would go "whuaaa?" And wtf, there's a snake in my house.
#5 therion666 Sep 03, 2010 14:13:30	The Creature Catalog Raaig entry mentions the most powerful of the three variants is still imbued with divine power, and they are often accompanied by angels, the only remaining ones on Athas (others might still be found in the Astral, beyond the Gray's barrier). Interesting. See dark sun used to be a closed Sphere so nothing extra planar could come through so any angel or demon on the world was trapped there when the gods fell. Deva's for example could be fallen angels or banished angels. However as the Demons now are set in the Elemental Chaos they are available just not Devils. The other option is to redifine the Angel as just an elemental creature. As for Warlocks likewise they would be connected to either the Fey\Elemental lords or the Sorcerer Kings or the Star Pact. However an Infernal Warlock could be connected to a powerful Infernal that is trapped in the world or a Demon Lord. You could even make the Infernal to be more elemental, maybe connected to the Dark Sun itself and be more an elemental warlock which would be rather cool.
#6 RyndarLocke Sep 03, 2010 14:18:28	The Creature Catalog Raaig entry mentions the most powerful of the three variants is still imbued with divine power, and they are often accompanied by angels, the only remaining ones on Athas (others might still be found in the Astral, beyond the Gray's barrier). Interesting. See dark sun used to be a closed Sphere so nothing extra planar could come through so any angel or demon on the world was trapped there when the gods fell. Deva's for example could be fallen angels or banished angels. However as the Demons now are set in the Elemental Chaos they are available just not Devils. The other option is to redifine the Angel as just an elemental creature. As for Warlocks likewise they would be connected to either the Fey\Elemental lords or the Sorcerer Kings or the Star Pact. However an Infernal Warlock could be connected to a powerful Infernal that is trapped in the world or a Demon Lord. You could even make the Infernal to be more elemental, maybe connected to the Dark Sun itself and be more an elemental warlock which would be rather cool. From a purely RP standpoint, I think an infernal Warlock defiler would maybe draw his pact from the Sun itself.
#7 Grummore Sep 03, 2010 14:24:08	Very simple for me. In Darksun, as it always have been, there are no Devil (demon) or Angel.
#8 ultimate_cap Sep 03, 2010 18:41:18	For my campaign: Residence: Devils are hiding in the shadowfell, as according to the book (they may have a chunk of Asmodeus with them, or not).  The astral sea, if referred to, is going to be called "the outer dark," following the cosmology in the Conan stories.  Angels would probably come across to the average Athasian the way a Yithian (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yithian) would to any 1920s private investigator.  By the time you realize they're here to help you instead of probe or eat you, you've gone insane.  Course, that's if you encounter an angel that's still good or lawful good. More likely, you're likely to be dealing with something that's a cross between the older Fay (like in Changeling: The Lost) and the Gnostic demiurge (all leading to "we're gonna screw with your sense of reality just to make us feel better," which would allow the players to visit another setting if they wanted, but return if they wanted to get back to Athas). ((Course, if any of my players are reading this, Brandon can attest that I usually don't remember anything I plan for RPGs for more than a month or so.)) Remember the gods?: The gods were destroyed or scattered (if any exist, it'll be Asmodeus, Torog, Tharizdun, Zehir, and Vecna).  If anyone besides the primordials knew (... If they're not busy being inanimate forces to remember), it'd be the angels and devils that served the gods.  Unless they're not really truely immortal (which would explain the Devas' desire to get caught in a cycle of reincarnation). How they view people: Devils would probably not be especially changed in their views of people, although they might be a little more lenient in contracts with warlocks just so they can get their power out there.  Most angels would probably be along the lines of "I've given up on the rest of existance, don't bother me or I'll whack you with this non-euclidian geometric figure I call a sword."  The LG or G ones would probably be happy for the company, perhaps too eager to keep it. Warlock pacts: Still there.  I'm gonna run the SKs as the SKs, but if the PCs leave the Tyr region, they may find a city run by an angelic or diabolic ruler. Devas: In my campaign, devas are extinct, but if a player wants to play one, then they're an apostate rakshasa reincarnated.  Only that deva and the Rakshasas would realize that that's the original form, everyone else would go "whuaaa?" And wtf, there's a snake in my house. Very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  Still trying to figure how I want to work them into the lore of my DS (want to put that twist on it, as far as "what happened to the Angels after the gods were defeated). I think the idea of Deva's being fallen angels is pretty cool.  Reflavor thier text to refect a "great awarness" (as opposed to past exerpiences). What does happen to characters that die in DS?  Do their souls go anywhere?  Do they wander the spiritworld aimlessly (with no gods to serve after death)?
#9 ian.thomson Sep 03, 2010 18:58:02	Devas as fallen angels also works, although I think I'm gonna keep the existance of angels from my players. For my game, at least, the dead go to the grey/shadowfell, where their souls gradually congeal into the rest of the grey, like an ossuary.  This is if they have the strength of will to not just die (i.e. aren't NPCs that noone cares about).
#10 OneWeirdCat Sep 03, 2010 19:59:22	in my view, what angels there are hide in the astral sea.  Devils the same.  The primordials won, they defeated the gods, archons and elementals reign supreme.  Primal spirits barely keep them in check, which is how life still exists.  It is possible the sorcerer kings and dragon defeated many primordials in battle once upon a time.  Or most of the primordials killed each other off when the gods were no more.  Soooo, what few angels or devils left are very tough, very smart, or very lucky, and probably very concerned with survival.  The sorcerer kings may have rituals to contact or control them, but precious few others would.  Would they come to Athas for any other reason?
#11 ultimate_cap Sep 03, 2010 23:12:19	The sorcerer kings may have rituals to contact or control them, but precious few others would.  Would they come to Athas for any other reason? Exactly, they wouldn't.  Now, if they were "stranded", that's another story.  Or exhiled, however you want to use 'em in your game. Hmmmm....what if all the angels and devils were simply deva now?  Fallen/exhiled to Athas, cut off from thier old existence when the gods were destroyed (defeated, vanquished, cast out...take your pick).  Would make for some interesting scenes when say, a demon, showed up and it could "smell" the taint of angel on the deva.  Sense the angelic blood...hmmmm...
#12 vigilant1 Sep 04, 2010 1:27:06	Considering the number of sorcerer kings that claim themselves as gods, or are worshiped as such, what if they had angels serving them? Perhaps a sk would "reward" one of their templars by changing them into an angel, only with out mentioning that they would become mindlessly obedient.
#13 Pashalik_Mons Sep 04, 2010 1:38:14	Considering the number of sorcerer kings that claim themselves as gods, or are worshiped as such, what if they had angels serving them? Perhaps a sk would "reward" one of their templars by changing them into an angel, only with out mentioning that they would become mindlessly obedient. I'm gonna file this under "Things to do when I become a Sorcerer-King"  kthx.