The Order is a group of powerful psionicists that are focused on keeping psionics "pure." This means not mixing it with other forms of magic, and not using psionic power to advance any goal other than keeping psionic power pure. They believe psionic power should be studied for the sake of studying psionic power, not for changing the world. They won't do anything about the Sorcerer Kings (despite their combining arcane and psionic power), because they're already an established part of the world. They will ignore fledgling psionicists (heroic tier), and may monitor exceptional paragon tier psionicists to keep an eye on potential members or enemies.
In 2e, the group was fairly neutral. You can continue adventuring while being a member by using the excuse of "I'm just testing my abilities," but you're likely to get into trouble doing anything especially fun (like taking out the Dragon...)
The Order is a group of powerful psionicists that are focused on keeping psionics "pure." This means not mixing it with other forms of magic, and not using psionic power to advance any goal other than keeping psionic power pure. They believe psionic power should be studied for the sake of studying psionic power, not for changing the world. They won't do anything about the Sorcerer Kings (despite their combining arcane and psionic power), because they're already an established part of the world. They will ignore fledgling psionicists (heroic tier), and may monitor exceptional paragon tier psionicists to keep an eye on potential members or enemies.
In 2e, the group was fairly neutral. You can continue adventuring while being a member by using the excuse of "I'm just testing my abilities," but you're likely to get into trouble doing anything especially fun (like taking out the Dragon...)
So it's an extremely boring, dead end concept? Okay. Time to change that. *Goes to the writing board*
The Order is a perfect example of what Edmund Burke was talking about when he said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Except in the case of Athas, evil already won. They did NOTHING but polish their collective bald heads and twiddle their orbs. I hate them to bits. My Dark Sun character, an elan psion/pyrokinetic, will light a fire under their butts.
So it's an extremely boring, dead end concept? Okay. Time to change that. *Goes to the writing board*
Read Dragon's Crown 2e adventure and you'll see how "boring" the Order really is.
So it's an extremely boring, dead end concept? Okay. Time to change that. *Goes to the writing board*
Read Dragon's Crown 2e adventure and you'll see how "boring" the Order really is.
I don't buy any material from older editions of the game. I'm merely making my judgement based on what I was told about them. I'll find a way to make them effective villains or what have you.
The Dark Sun campaign setting is a setting of grey vs. black morality; like the Campaign Setting says, "if your PCs won't be the heroes then no one will." Except the heroes are renegade defilers, bloodthirsty halfling tribesmen, completely and utterly alien insect-people, and greedy money-grubbing erdlu feces merchants. The villains, though, are far worse! Absolutely selfish sorcerers who essentially only care about their own power, daemon lords bound in the Abyss, alien intrusions from the Far Realm, and mad warlords who want to dominate a blistered wasteland.
For such a morally ambiguous setting, the villains are pretty clear, and that's what makes the Order so great. Good guys, bad guys, somewhere in the middle - they just don't give a damn. They're totally apathetic. Heroic gladiatorial underdog or viscious templar serving a mortal god, they're going to laser-guide your amnesia and wipe clean your whole brain
I don't buy any material from older editions of the game. I'm merely making my judgement based on what I was told about them. I'll find a way to make them effective villains or what have you.
Thing is, the Order aren't really villians. Nor are they the good guys. They're a group of psionic purists.
I don't buy any material from older editions of the game. I'm merely making my judgement based on what I was told about them. I'll find a way to make them effective villains or what have you.
Thing is, the Order aren't really villians. Nor are they the good guys. They're a group of psionic purists.
Which is completely dull. A dead end concept. "A group of people who just meditate all day" does not make for good storytelling. Especially considering they're Paragon to Epic is power level. So I'm changing them, because as a storyteller, it's my job to write something that doesn't put the players to sleep.
They don't just sit around and meditate, though, they try to kill off any high level psionicist (aside from the existing Sorcerer-Kings) that they think is ruining psionics (multiclassed? hybrid? any alignment besides unaligned? congrats, you're "impure" and a target). In 2e, this actually included Avangions and aspiring Dragon Kings. Those are also reasons to adventure while a member, testing one's ability against threats to the world (the SKs may be evil, but it's within the players' rights to decide they're a necessary evil).
They also provide a high level alternative to the Veiled Alliance (which is mostly heroic with some paragon tier), all a player has to do is advance enough to acquire some underlings and form their own cabal. Yes, a lot of the rest of the Order will be unhappy, but that's just more XP for the party (fights or skill challenges). The VA takes care of common defilers, the Order takes care of aspiring Dragon Kings (because the VA couldn't afford to).
It's also a bit realistic. Look at the dark ages. Catholic clergy were quite well educated and had the power to change the world, but they believed it was better to sit back and try not to muck about with it (and then when some of them did start to muck about, people started getting angry and you had the protestant reformation).
What sort of interesting, Order-related plot hooks are you (that is, anyone) using in your games?
They don't just sit around and meditate, though, they try to kill off any high level psionicist (aside from the existing Sorcerer-Kings) that they think is ruining psionics (multiclassed? hybrid? any alignment besides unaligned? congrats, you're "impure" and a target). In 2e, this actually included Avangions and aspiring Dragon Kings. Those are also reasons to adventure while a member, testing one's ability against threats to the world (the SKs may be evil, but it's within the players' rights to decide they're a necessary evil).
This of course creates the huge plot hole of why they'd allow the Sorcerer-Kings to exist, and no "Because they've been there a long time" is not a good excuse. Also, I don't know how it worked in 2e, but Avangions have no connection to psionics (indeed, some Sorcerer-kings don't either).
They also provide a high level alternative to the Veiled Alliance (which is mostly heroic with some paragon tier), all a player has to do is advance enough to acquire some underlings and form their own cabal.
Preserves and Psionicists are rather different. An alternative this is not.
Yes, a lot of the rest of the Order will be unhappy, but that's just more XP for the party (fights or skill challenges). The VA takes care of common defilers, the Order takes care of aspiring Dragon Kings (because the VA couldn't afford to).
..... yeah, I'm not buying this for even a second. Again, in 4e, the Dragon God epic destiny has no relation to psionics.
It's also a bit realistic. Look at the dark ages. Catholic clergy were quite well educated and had the power to change the world, but they believed it was better to sit back and try not to muck about with it (and then when some of them did start to muck about, people started getting angry and you had the protestant reformation).
They were stupid. Epic level psions are decidedly not.
In 2E, however, they did just that, by creating an artifact that dampened all psionics in the world, effectively weakening the Sorcerer-Kings enough to make them relatively vulnerable to the high-level psionicists in The Order immune to the psionics-dampening field due to handy macguffins. In 2E, not only were Sorcerer-Kings literally both very high level magic-users and psionicists, but they wielded epic spells that required both high level magic and psionic ability to use (i.e. were both 9th level spells and 9th level psionic powers). With psionics dampened, these powers were negated. Quite a big deal, considering that the survival of the world itself (think: Rajaat) ironically depended on Borys's use of some of those epic spells. In this sense, in 2E The Order were basically the only other faction to come anywhere near challenging the Sorcerer-Kings.
With 4E's homogenous use of power sources and the likes, a lot of this feel has been removed. The Sorcerer-Kings aren't both spell-casters and psionicists so literally, and to become a Sorcerer-King/Dragon/Avangion one doesn't need to cast subsequently more powerful dual wizard and psionic spells. And so The Order's focus of keeping psionics pure isn't as clear cut in 4E as it was in 2E.
They're still usable though. The goal of 'keeping psionics pure' sounds ambiguous, and it should be - The Order's actual actions and dealing should be Epic Tier, and any whispers even Paragon tier characters hear of The Order should be murky and mysterious simply because the reality of those dealings are above them, figuratively and literally.
They were stupid. Epic level psions are decidedly not.
Says who? Half a dozen people have suggested ideas and you've thrown them all out the door because you're still clinging to the idea that the Order is pointless.
Continuing the example of the Church in medieval times, imagine what happens when the Order decides to take a more active role. Psionic purists, eh? Wasn't Rajaat a racial purist? What happens when the Order has secretly been building up an army or a large group of assassins to wipe the slate clean? They know psionic power can kill the world just as defiling magic has, and they want to nip the problem in the bud so what do they do? Slaughter every psionic user in the Tyr region
(unless you want there to be one...)
Was there any link between the Order and the Mind Lords?
Sadly no, as you've probably found out in the thread I made about the matter. The Mind Lords of Saragar (Last Sea region) predate The Order. I think the SK's (Champions) are the only ones who are as old as the [3] Mind Lords of Saragar. It would be really interesting and fun if the Order discovered a whole city of psionic users not under their "hegemony", and mortified when they find out the Mind Lords of Saragar surpass them in every way. haha
@AlsoAnima: If you don't like the idea of The Order being just a group of psionic purists who sit on their ass and meditate, have them be agents of Saragar sent out as "hunter-killers" targeting extremely powerful psionicists. The reasoning behind this could be to prevent ANY chance of Saragar's discovery by outsiders. What better way to maintain Saragar's secrecy and safety?
Paradon my french, but is in flaming **** is Saragar?
Please see:
www.digitalwanderer.net/darksun/
Paradon my french, but is in flaming **** is Saragar?
Pardon my English, but I do not understand yours...
Would that be..."Where is Saragar?"
Two For One:
The Order could be secretly cooperating with the SK's,
to keep Far Realms bad guys from showing up,
and ruining the little racket they've got going.
The Order works WITH the SK's.
or
One for One:
The Order could secretly be kept in line by the SK's,
because they end up doing the dirty work toward Far Realms-y
problems the SK's want to keep in line too.
The Order works FOR the SK's ... perhaps unknowingly.
or
They All Miss It:
The Order doesn't really know that their Psi-Only policy
is the actual way to power in Dark Sun.
They haven't stumbled on it just yet.
The SK's know this, but have to use arcane/sorcery
to keep their little Banana Republics going.
The SK's also know what arcane you need to accomplish this.
That's the ... r e a l ... secret they know.
(evil grin)
The SK's ARE The Order.
1) a collective consciousness is emerging, implying many people in one place subtly offer more power to psionicists, explaining that after the Cleansing Wars the Champions led the remnants of civilization into the relatively small Tyr region
2) psionics are tied to phrenic planes (akin to divine/astral realms and shadow/shadowfell) which means that these planes of thought and reason are oddly close to Athas and not blockaded by the Grey
3) the natural 'evolution' of each race means psionic powers come with that next step, perhaps implying that the Sorcerer-kings were trying to rush this evolution within themselves or perhaps trying to rush it even in normal citizens but it was an experiment gone terribly awry
4) conversely, psionics are a degeneration and rather than a defense against the Far Realm psionic power is of the Far Realm's taint. This has horrible implications for Athas I don't even need to mention
Another possibility is : The Spellplague !!
Spellplague is strong enough to remake the magic And psionic "stuff" floating around,
including The Far Realms, Dark Sun, the various Deities, etc ...
Who knows what it really did ??
As for why they don't interfere with the SKs (despite them being dragons and falling under the "perversion" bit) . . . it's exactly it that they've "been around a really long time." Even if you don't like it, it's the truth. The SKs have been around for thousands and thousands of years. As far as the Order is concerned, they (the SKs) are part of the natural order of things. The problem they decided they had was with newbies showing up and disrupting the "natural order" of things (of which the SKs are decidedly part of). Of course (in the adventure), not too long after the Order takes this hard-line stance re: psionic enchantment mixing they get demolished in their little civil war and all the hardliners get killed and/or defeated. So there's really no way to know what those hard-liners might have done about the SKs had they remained in power.
Sure the Order could probably take em (if a handful of heroic tier wannabes can take out half the SKs of the region PLUS the Dragon PLUS Rajaat, then a secret cabal of dozens (or hundreds) of epic-tier psions should be able to take down ALL of them.
Anyway, in the "new" 4e version, things apparently haven't gotten that far. So for the "time being" it's probably still the Order party line to warily watch advanced beings and continue watching things and waiting to make a definitive decision.
As for Saragar, it's the oldest vestige of civilization still around on Athas (that we know of). A hold-over from the green age that predates everything, including the sorcerer kings and rajaat, run by a trio of bodiless psions of (supposedly, though the original stats don't match up to the spin) unmatched psionic power who used time travel to orchestrate the preservation of an inland sea and a slice of green age civilization where magic is outlawed (to a degree the SKs could only dream of). On the surface it looks like a paradise (complete with sandy white beaches, surfing druids and psionic dolphins!), but it's a mind-controlled police state where folks who aren't happy are mind-wiped and brainwashed to "make" them happy.
It's really a plot by the Yugoloths to reclaim their various thrones.
It's all this complicated, because that's exactly how they roll/role/whatever.
We are ALL suckers in their secret plans.
(evil grin)
The Order did not kill Korgunard, and then eat his heart. A halfling member of the Order killed him and ate his heart. That particular member was acting alone - most members appear to act in a solo capacity as well - and followed his cultural beliefs on appropriating the power of his enemy through consuming his heart.
That's what the Order wants you to think. That they can take out any Avagnion they want, but just don't want to. The ultimate truth is up to the DM, but there's some possibilities...
1. They really do think S-Ks and Avagnions are abominations, and that they should be slain. And eaten, if you ask their halfling members. And they're just powerful enough to do it.
2. As 1. above, only they're not powerful enough to take out all the S-Ks and Avagnions. They just want everyone to think they are. And the one that got eaten was attacked in his sleep.
3. The Avagnion faked his death and the halfling was put up to it and paid handsomely, because the Order is neither Lawful nor Good and thus the enemy of the Avagnions (who might actually believe it to be a pawn of the S-Ks, whether this is true or not). At least the alignment part holds true for 2e when the fluff was written.
1. They really do think S-Ks and Avagnions are abominations, and that they should be slain. And eaten, if you ask their halfling members. And they're just powerful enough to do it.
Or... maybe they are more than capable of taking out the Dragon and S-Ks... but they won't because they know the consequences of doing that would be worse than the current situation... which leads me to wonder how the Order perceives the death of King Kalak.
Huh?
Nothing important, just taking your assertation about the halfling acting alone and all that and finding ways to turn it on its ear.