Also the Rajaat. What is that?
The Blue Age was the time before the Green Age I believe. It was a time where the world was ruled by the halflings. I think it was the Green Age when the new demi-human races came to fruition.
Rajaat is a halfling and he was the first sorcerer as he discovered magic. He came to being some time in the Green Age. He infamously trained his "13 Champions" in the ways of magic (which were human and the current Sorcerer Kings and Queens) and duped them to believe he wanted a world where only humans and halflings existed. So they started the Cleansing Wars. But the champions found out Rajaat wanted to cleanse the world of all but halflings and they rebelled and imprisoned him in what's called, "The Black." It's a place of nothingness somewhere beyond "The Gray" or in the 4e terms, "the Shadow Fel."
You won't or shouldn't see any stats for Rajaat. In my opinion he's Dark Sun's version of Tharizdun. Tharizdun would end all existence if he's released and Rajaat will likely do the same to Athas if he's released. ...Well...end all existence for all but halflings I guess.
Hope that helps.
These halflings eventually developed the art of "lifeshaping", using psionic energy to literally grow and reshape living organisms into any purpose they desired, creating a vast array of biotech devices. Eventually, though, something called the Brown Tide swept through the oceans, devastating all of the living creatures in it - the halflings literally drained the energy of the sun, turning it into a yellow sun, to purge it, but as a side effect the water level dropped and so the continents were revealed. The halflings also began to mutate, though I'm not sure whether this was accidental or deliberate self-exposure to lifeshaping, being refashioned into all of the various other races - humans, dwarves, elves, giants, lizardmen, etc. Only a relatively small percentage remained in their original forms.
Rajaat was either a human or a halfling, but insane and deformed either way. He saw the Green Age as an abomination, as the halflings were no longer the sole masters of the world, and sought to purge the other races so that the halflings would rule once more. He invented arcane magic, before which only psionics had existed, by violently tearing away the lifeforce of the planet itself, and secretly taught it to 13 foolish, evil humans. These "Champions" began a series of genocidal wars, slaughtering a number of races and basically reducing Athas to its present state before they learned that Rajaat would have them, and all of humanity, killed off next once they were finished. They turned on him and imprisoned him in the Black, which was basically Athas's plane of shadows. In this version of the lore, the Dragon, the previously enigmatic eldritch abomination that was the terror of all of Athas, was retconned to be Borys, the most powerful of Rajaat's Champions, whose rampages were actually directed at gathering lifeforce to reinforce the wards that sealed Rajaat away.
Despite how much it gets referenced around here, it's actually not quite as popular as you may think. As is ever the case in D&D, you have a wide gamut of fans from those who hated all of the changes in lore from the 1e boxset to those who embrace the 2e boxset as the one truth to those who like some ideas (say, that the Sorcerer-Kings are actually aspiring Dragons and each is actually an archdefiler and genocidal warlord from the lost history of Athas) and hate other ideas (all the races descended from halflings, the Dragon is actually the gatekeeper for some even more powerful entity).
The Blue Age
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The first age of athas. Covered by an endless ocean, with an azure sun in the sky. Few islands dot the ocean and these were marshes, swamps and the peaks of mountains rising out of the ocean. Forest overed tips capped in snow.
Halflings were the only intelligent race on athas with small tribes of primitive thrikreen. arcane magic and psionics were unknown at this time and they only had a limited grasp on elemental magic. Halflings used a rocklike plant "assumed to be a form of coral" to construct their cities. Halfling nature masters using life shaping power created everything from tools to buildings to living grafts. These nature masters worked with nature and not against it. There were others called nature benders who bent and warped nature. Creating devastating weapons. Nature masters fought nature benders.
The nature masters tried to increase the sea's resources and made a mistake, creating a brown plant that sucked the life out of the ocean which caused the brown tide. The managed to stop the brown tide but it changed the sun from blue to yellow. This ends the blue age and begins to green age and the rebirth follows.
The first age of athas. Covered by an endless ocean, with an azure sun in the sky. Few islands dot the ocean and these were marshes, swamps and the peaks of mountains rising out of the ocean. Forest overed tips capped in snow.
Halflings were the only intelligent race on athas with small tribes of primitive thrikreen. arcane magic and psionics were unknown at this time and they only had a limited grasp on elemental magic. Halflings used a rocklike plant "assumed to be a form of coral" to construct their cities. Halfling nature masters using life shaping power created everything from tools to buildings to living grafts. These nature masters worked with nature and not against it. There were others called nature benders who bent and warped nature. Creating devastating weapons. Nature masters fought nature benders.
The nature masters tried to increase the sea's resources and made a mistake, creating a brown plant that sucked the life out of the ocean which caused the brown tide. The managed to stop the brown tide but it changed the sun from blue to yellow. This ends the blue age and begins to green age and the rebirth follows.
You're a prime example as to why the Campaign Guide fell short. Only us old players know the real Dark Sun and the new players are left with a world that's very vague about everything. So to help answer your questions.
The Blue Age was the time before the Green Age I believe. It was a time where the world was ruled by the halflings. I think it was the Green Age when the new demi-human races came to fruition.
Rajaat is a halfling and he was the first sorcerer as he discovered magic. He came to being some time in the Green Age. He infamously trained his "13 Champions" in the ways of magic (which were human and the current Sorcerer Kings and Queens) and duped them to believe he wanted a world where only humans and halflings existed. So they started the Cleansing Wars. But the champions found out Rajaat wanted to cleanse the world of all but halflings and they rebelled and imprisoned him in what's called, "The Black." It's a place of nothingness somewhere beyond "The Gray" or in the 4e terms, "the Shadow Fel."
You won't or shouldn't see any stats for Rajaat. In my opinion he's Dark Sun's version of Tharizdun. Tharizdun would end all existence if he's released and Rajaat will likely do the same to Athas if he's released. ...Well...end all existence for all but halflings I guess.
Hope that helps.
Well I think the intention is to reinforce the idea that the history of Athas beyond those who actually lived it is supposed to be vague. The history is a secret and therefore does not need to be included in the main campaign book. Personally I don't want the players to know things that there PCs shouldn't know about the world since it leads to metagaming issues that were a hallmark of the 90's. Not to mention that I don't care to have the events of the novels decide the direction and/or backdrop of my campaigns, nore the secret lore to be so avaliable to the players that the sense of awe and mystery when the PCs are confrunted by snipet's of the history no one but a handfull of entities would know.
You're a prime example as to why the Campaign Guide fell short. Only us old players know the real Dark Sun and the new players are left with a world that's very vague about everything. So to help answer your questions.
The Blue Age was the time before the Green Age I believe. It was a time where the world was ruled by the halflings. I think it was the Green Age when the new demi-human races came to fruition.
Rajaat is a halfling and he was the first sorcerer as he discovered magic. He came to being some time in the Green Age. He infamously trained his "13 Champions" in the ways of magic (which were human and the current Sorcerer Kings and Queens) and duped them to believe he wanted a world where only humans and halflings existed. So they started the Cleansing Wars. But the champions found out Rajaat wanted to cleanse the world of all but halflings and they rebelled and imprisoned him in what's called, "The Black." It's a place of nothingness somewhere beyond "The Gray" or in the 4e terms, "the Shadow Fel."
You won't or shouldn't see any stats for Rajaat. In my opinion he's Dark Sun's version of Tharizdun. Tharizdun would end all existence if he's released and Rajaat will likely do the same to Athas if he's released. ...Well...end all existence for all but halflings I guess.
Hope that helps.
Well I think the intention is to reinforce the idea that the history of Athas beyond those who actually lived it is supposed to be vague. The history is a secret and therefore does not need to be included in the main campaign book. Personally I don't want the players to know things that there PCs shouldn't know about the world since it leads to metagaming issues that were a hallmark of the 90's. Not to mention that I don't care to have the events of the novels decide the direction and/or backdrop of my campaigns, nore the secret lore to be so avaliable to the players that the sense of awe and mystery when the PCs are confrunted by snipet's of the history no one but a handfull of entities would know.
I agree with this guy. Dark Sun for me was much more fun before I knew all the history. After that it's just any other sci-fi/fantasy setting. The fun is in not knowing and recieving small snippets.
You're a prime example as to why the Campaign Guide fell short. Only us old players know the real Dark Sun and the new players are left with a world that's very vague about everything.
Which is exactly what WotC wanted to do. It was a return to something along the lines of the original box set (which is what I consider the "real" Dark Sun) with some later stuff thrown in. I'm glad it is a reboot, not that I couldn't and did ignore much of the craptastic metaplot. I really like how everything is laid out right now. Reminds me of that wonder I got when I had the original box set.
Duke 5150 has all the right answer.
Damn know all ;)
I hardly know it all. Luckily I have everything darksun from all editions, except some of the novels. So I can look it up. Since I completely enjoy re-reading the exact same material hundreds upon hundreds of times, I'm happy to answer questions.
[edit] Strike that. I do not own glory and blood. (the convention area series) Although I'm in the process of getting it.
What about Telephatic Dolphins at blue age?
that I think is the funniest thing I have read in days...
Well I think the intention is to reinforce the idea that the history of Athas beyond those who actually lived it is supposed to be vague. The history is a secret and therefore does not need to be included in the main campaign book. Personally I don't want the players to know things that there PCs shouldn't know about the world since it leads to metagaming issues that were a hallmark of the 90's. Not to mention that I don't care to have the events of the novels decide the direction and/or backdrop of my campaigns, nore the secret lore to be so avaliable to the players that the sense of awe and mystery when the PCs are confrunted by snipet's of the history no one but a handfull of entities would know.
I plan on the history playing a huge part in my campaign. Finding out some of what went on in Athas' past is part of the wonder and mystery of Dark Sun. When the players recieve a nice infodump about some Athas' past, it should feel like a truly wonderous moment. Luckily none of my players knows much at all about the history. I'm also ignoring the events of the novels and telling my own story, with the exception of the death of Kalak. The fact that the players are as ignorant about history as their characters is going to make it so much better.
They're references to the lore from the 2e "Expanded" boxset; 4e has gone back to the much vaguer lore from the original 1e boxset
Hold the phone....There was a 1st Edition Dark Sun? I thought Dark Sun began in the 2nd Edition.
They're references to the lore from the 2e "Expanded" boxset; 4e has gone back to the much vaguer lore from the original 1e boxset
Hold the phone....There was a 1st Edition Dark Sun? I thought Dark Sun began in the 2nd Edition.
Double-hold indeed. 1e Dark Sun?!
So, my treasured trove of 2e Material wasn't the original version? Oh the horrible betrayal!
I'm hoping this was a typo, or else I need to start scanning eBay to keep my collection bragging rights...
I think he was talking about the 1st box and the 2nd box, both printed during 2nd edition.
Oh thank god. All is right in the world again. Thank you Goldomark.
The Blue Age is more up in the air, with the idea of the world once being covered in water and the halflings being the masters of the world being uncertain, neither confirmed nor denied but they are mentioned.
Really, the only thing from the novels that has been retconned is all the post death of Kalak present day history. Though there is still the question of whether Sacha and Wyan are still around, or if they were ever still around, and if Kalak was one of the Champions or not in 4e.
Also, why wouldn't Kalak have been a Champion?
As for Kalak, read this thread: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Ah...hm. Interesting. Who are Sacha and the other one?
Sasha and Wyan
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Sacha of Arla was the curse of kobolds and rajaat's first champion. He served kalak and tithian until he had his head crushed in by rikus, while trying to free rajaat.
Wyan of bodach was the pixie blight and 12th champion of rajaat. I think he also served kalak and tithian. (i don't remember) Wyan was finally destroyed when sadira cut his head in half with the scourge.
Both were disembodied heads, beheaded after the rebellion of the champions for trying to help rajaat. Although in rise and fall of a dragon king, they had their bodies consumed by borys during his transformation into a dragon. The novel goes against some of the canon, so it's up to you to decide which story you like more.
Sacha of Arla was the curse of kobolds and rajaat's first champion. He served kalak and tithian until he had his head crushed in by rikus, while trying to free rajaat.
Wyan of bodach was the pixie blight and 12th champion of rajaat. I think he also served kalak and tithian. (i don't remember) Wyan was finally destroyed when sadira cut his head in half with the scourge.
Both were disembodied heads, beheaded after the rebellion of the champions for trying to help rajaat. Although in rise and fall of a dragon king, they had their bodies consumed by borys during his transformation into a dragon. The novel goes against some of the canon, so it's up to you to decide which story you like more.
You had an original boxed set, then revised one based on a set of novels a good part (if not the majority) of the userbase fundamentally rejected, and THEN they let everyone and their mother work on the setting. It basically went on 3 stages:
- Box 1: very lithe, probably too light on history, universally appreciated.
- Box 2: post Pentad, disliked by many but still fundamentally consistent
- further material: complete chaos, people different from the original authors changing the canon and contradicting the setting's lore in several places, different sources giving different explanations to the same things, and so on. You were fundamentally guaranteed that any release that focused on a topic would have contradicted your previous material somehow.
4E proposes some ideas, like Rajaat, the Champions, and the Cleansing Wars, but leaves some up for debate - as in ignoring the issue at all, like the Blue Age. I can totally understand what WotC did with 4E's Dark Sun and I believe it was the right route - that is, leaving the history a mystery but at least having some name drops here or there - but personally I could use a bit more fluff.
The only other campaign setting I'm even remotely familiar with is Eberron. That setting has a long history written up and also hints as to where the present might lead into; it talks of the Age of Demons and Giants and whatnot but then also speculates that the Last War isn't completely done with. I like that.
Where is Dark Sun going? I understand that after the Prism Pentad and 3.5's magazine timeline push of 300 years there just aren't too many people wanting to know that answer. I still want to know. I want something more than, "maybe the age of the sorcerer-kings is coming to an end..." I guess it's just up to me now, though
Yeah, I've been following Dark Sun for maybe a little over a year now and I've certainly come to realize that the revised edition of it is...disliked, to put it modestly. Nonetheless, there were so many books and adventures released in that time it's hard to not overlook them for inspiration. It's in this regard that one's gotta sift through it all.
4E proposes some ideas, like Rajaat, the Champions, and the Cleansing Wars, but leaves some up for debate - as in ignoring the issue at all, like the Blue Age. I can totally understand what WotC did with 4E's Dark Sun and I believe it was the right route - that is, leaving the history a mystery but at least having some name drops here or there - but personally I could use a bit more fluff.
The only other campaign setting I'm even remotely familiar with is Eberron. That setting has a long history written up and also hints as to where the present might lead into; it talks of the Age of Demons and Giants and whatnot but then also speculates that the Last War isn't completely done with. I like that.
Where is Dark Sun going? I understand that after the Prism Pentad and 3.5's magazine timeline push of 300 years there just aren't too many people wanting to know that answer. I still want to know. I want something more than, "maybe the age of the sorcerer-kings is coming to an end..." I guess it's just up to me now, though
Now, if you want my opinion, my view of the 2nd edition material is that:
- the Pentad was a set of fairly bad novels that contained some good to awesome details. It was poorly written, it was hardly surprising or exciting, but it provided the backstory, and lots of texture to the setting.
I strongly dislike the chain of events past Kalak's death; in fact, my biggest beef with it is that it turned Dark Sun from an unique setting into your average "the Dark Lord is coming" setting. Fans hate it because the first boxed set created this wonderful world and then the novels proceeded to demolish it piece by piece.
- the backstory however was great; I like Rajaat, even if just in his past perspective. The Champions, the Cleansing Wars, it's all great stuff. In our gaming group, the general perception is that the Dragon is a far, far better and more fitting BBEG, so in our games the tone is generally that the villains now are much more powerful than they were when Rajaat was around, and that the Dragon is more powerful than Rajaat ever was. However, the idea of the Champions studying and fighting under Rajaat, and his nature, and his sad, dramatic story are a staple of the setting for me.
- Rise and Fall of a Sorcerer King I consider complete non-canon rubbish. It's so full of stupidity and innacuracies that the setting is far better if you just ignore it.
All in all, 4e is the best of all worlds. It still have the very strong backstory, and the charming characters, it captures the best of the novels (The Verdant Passage) and does away with all that was unnecessary or unwanted. The sandbox is intact but the pieces are set to take it wherever you want. A perfect mix of the 1st and 2nd boxed set, both of which had strong points.
I guess it's just up to me now, though
It's up to you and your players. That's sort of the point of this being an RPG, rather than a movie or a series of novels.
I genuinely cannot understand the mindset that demands steaming piles of metaplot handed to them on a plate. Now, I'm not in the habit of telling people they're "doing D&D wrong". I think it's a big enough game to appeal to lots of very different ways of "doing it". But wanting a setting where the big, meaningful stories have effectively already been told and all the awesome, world-changing stuff has already been done (or will inevitably be done) by some third-rate author's godlike Mary Sue NPCs, seems contrary to the very spirit of an RPG to me.
Now, if you want my opinion, my view of the 2nd edition material is that:
- the Pentad was a set of fairly bad novels that contained some good to awesome details. It was poorly written, it was hardly surprising or exciting, but it provided the backstory, and lots of texture to the setting.
I strongly dislike the chain of events past Kalak's death; in fact, my biggest beef with it is that it turned Dark Sun from an unique setting into your average "the Dark Lord is coming" setting. Fans hate it because the first boxed set created this wonderful world and then the novels proceeded to demolish it piece by piece.
- the backstory however was great; I like Rajaat, even if just in his past perspective. The Champions, the Cleansing Wars, it's all great stuff. In our gaming group, the general perception is that the Dragon is a far, far better and more fitting BBEG, so in our games the tone is generally that the villains now are much more powerful than they were when Rajaat was around, and that the Dragon is more powerful than Rajaat ever was. However, the idea of the Champions studying and fighting under Rajaat, and his nature, and his sad, dramatic story are a staple of the setting for me.
- Rise and Fall of a Sorcerer King I consider complete non-canon rubbish. It's so full of stupidity and innacuracies that the setting is far better if you just ignore it.
All in all, 4e is the best of all worlds. It still have the very strong backstory, and the charming characters, it captures the best of the novels (The Verdant Passage) and does away with all that was unnecessary or unwanted. The sandbox is intact but the pieces are set to take it wherever you want. A perfect mix of the 1st and 2nd boxed set, both of which had strong points.
Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. The post death of Kalak stuff was mostly questionable or bad (though I liked Sadira the Sun Wizard and the Cerulean Storm as an isolated thing, ignoring it's origins), but the background history was pretty phenomenally awesome.
I haven't read Rise and Fall since my first reading when it was published, but as I recall one of the things it tried to accomplish was paint Hamanu as an anti-hero, which just sorta kinda goes against what's accepted for Sorcerer Kings.
Where other sorcerer kings were obsessed with furthering the dragon metamorphosis and preventing the bestial rage, Hamanu was obsessed with preventing the metamorphosis if possible and prolonging it as long as he could. Instead of devoting his time to acquiring life force and studying rituals to become a dragon, he devoted his time to his city.
I'v read a couple hundred D&D novels, easily, and rise and fall is among my favorites, despite it's flaws. I found it to be a great story.
I genuinely cannot understand the mindset that demands steaming piles of metaplot handed to them on a plate.
I agree with you; I don't expect and certainly don't want a metaplot to be sold to me. New World of Darkness saved us from that mistake. I just wanted the 4E campaign setting to have some more plot hooks than, "battle sorcerer-kings" and "explore Green Age ruins." I suppose that's what a lot of fantasy adventures boil down to: fight evil sorcerers and explore dungeons, but still...
I dunno
If you look at any TSR campaign setting, the original materials were really well done. But the follow-on materials that try to keep up with the books are uninspiring at best. Like Dark Sun.
So what's the Cerulean Storm?
Cerulean Storm
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The cerulean storm was created from the remains of rajaat's cloud body and sustained by tithian who is "trapped in the black yet tied to rajaat in the hollow." The cerulean storm stays in the same region. Tyr storms are powerful and destructive smaller storms that travel to different locations building strength as they go. They eventually release all their energy in a climax of rain, hail, wind, thunder and lightning before dying off due to burning up all their energy very quickly. They can reach just about anywhere in the tyr region, at least as far as the mountains. I'v no idea if tyr storms go beyond the ringing mountains. I doubt it.
It says there is one tyr storm every month in different parts of the tablelands (tyr region) though no area recieves more than one visit each year. Tyr storms last no more than an hour and usually dissipate within 20 minutes leaving death and devastation in their wake.
The cerulean storm was created from the remains of rajaat's cloud body and sustained by tithian who is "trapped in the black yet tied to rajaat in the hollow." The cerulean storm stays in the same region. Tyr storms are powerful and destructive smaller storms that travel to different locations building strength as they go. They eventually release all their energy in a climax of rain, hail, wind, thunder and lightning before dying off due to burning up all their energy very quickly. They can reach just about anywhere in the tyr region, at least as far as the mountains. I'v no idea if tyr storms go beyond the ringing mountains. I doubt it.
It says there is one tyr storm every month in different parts of the tablelands (tyr region) though no area recieves more than one visit each year. Tyr storms last no more than an hour and usually dissipate within 20 minutes leaving death and devastation in their wake.
I genuinely cannot understand the mindset that demands steaming piles of metaplot handed to them on a plate.
I agree with you; I don't expect and certainly don't want a metaplot to be sold to me. New World of Darkness saved us from that mistake. I just wanted the 4E campaign setting to have some more plot hooks than, "battle sorcerer-kings" and "explore Green Age ruins." I suppose that's what a lot of fantasy adventures boil down to: fight evil sorcerers and explore dungeons, but still...
I dunno
Dark Sun also emphasizes other aspects; slavery, environment, survival. These are all common aspects which would not be common in other settings. The villain might use psionics instead of magic. Warlords and such also play a big role in this setting. The big villain could be a bandit warlord or a templar warlord. Or it could be a Dark Sun creature harassing a village. Many of the previous plot hooks work in this setting once you twist in a little Dark Sun flavour.
Not to mention that plot hooks are a dime a dozen theses days. Just off the top of my head there were these two, The 36 Plots and The Big List of RPG Plots. It is just a matter of putting the Dark Sun spin on them.
Don't think I'm disappointed with the setting! 4E Dark Sun is everything I've ever wanted in my homebrew worlds; no more homebrew for me now haha I just wish the CS had some more fluff, is all.
Also, thanks for Cerulean Storm info
So what's the Cerulean Storm?
This?
And by the way, I agree with that sig.
My position on this issue is best summed up by this webcomic.
Ah yes, White Wolf. Yeah, that was quite the mess too. In fact, I haven't played a WW game since the mid-90's, largely due to their screwing up their product lines. I suppose it's possible and likely that competition with WW helped push TSR down the metaplot road. On the other hand, TSR was being run by absolute morons (EGG was being pushed out), so it really is pretty amazing that the quality of even the worst publications was as good as they were.
To the best of my knowledge [and this is coming from Gary Gygax himself] he was pushed out in the 1980s by the Bloom Brothers. Gary sort of got Jack Kirbied and didn't wind up with a whole lot from his co-creation. The company was then bought by an individual entrepreneur from the Bloom Brothers who had already pissed a great deal of money and cred away.