The one small hiccup with that, of course, is the Dragon. He and his Sorcerer-King 'minions' usually don't take the best view of those entertaining thoughts along the lines of changing the metaphysical status-quo, and generally go about stopping via through the time-honoured tradition of hitting them with a pointy stick.
Why can't gamers resist tweaking established worlds? Really, if you don't like the world as is; take the parts you do like for a homebrew world of your own creation.
Now i know that Athas is different, but i dont see how the Astral Sea cant be "repaired" by some epic level character or even the Avangions or even the pyreen any insights would be most welcome
Because you can't make a god. Because sometimes something is too damaged to fix. As for becoming something as powerful as a god, well, that is pretty much what the dragon is, and what the sorcerer kings/theoretically existing avangions are in the process of doing...
...You do realize that tweaking the world is the entire point, right?
I was trying to be polite in my first post. Perhaps I should said something about completely altering the core concepts of a world or some such.
The gods's spheres of influence dealt with aspects of civlization (they acted more like guides, via immortal servants, for the mortals) while the primordials influence dealt with the wild and natural aspects of the world. The gods lived remotely in their dominions in the Astral Sea while the primoridals lived in the Elemental Chaos. Some of the primordials, though prefered to dwell on Athas, thus forging special bonds with the planet.
When magic appeared in the world, both gods and primordials wondered how this new power source manifested. To them only higher powers could introduce a new one. The gods, though, far removed from the everyday lives of the mortals didn't look into in more deeply.
At this time there was only Divine, Primal and Psionic powers. When magic was revealed publicly, everyone saw it was a beneficial source of power (preserving magic). A source that didn't do nature any harm and that could benefit the various nations on Athas.
The Cleansing Wars came as a surprise to everyone, both mortals and immortals, for Rajaat did successfully prepare his move, hidden from everyone. The release of defiling magic coupled with the destruction of various races and nations came as a hard blow to both primordials and gods.
Both power groups were weakened by this event, the primordial due to the destruction of the land and the gods due to the destruction of their worshipers. Gods tried to intervene, but the defiling magic released on Athas closed all gates to the Astral Sea. They lost most of their powers and influence due to the lack or worshipers and soon became dormant. While the Elemental Chaos was still accessible, the primordials were greatly weakened by the destruction of the world they created. Those who had forged special bonds with the planet tried to change things but it was too late. The ravaging of the world stripped them all of most of their strength and could not unleash their elemental fury upon Rajaat and his Champions. Some tired but were defeated and put into eternal slumbers.
The way my campagin is heading, my players want to revive a primordial (probably more as they get information) and help him (them) fight against the sorcerer-kings in order to restore Athas to the Green Age. It will be a long and arduous task that will be completed (if they're lucky) close to level 30. They're level 13 at the moment.
I did not imagine a scenario were the players could reopen a way to the Astral Sea yet. My players are not interested in the lost divine aspect of the world (their characters are not that is). They are more closely related to primordials (being spritually led by a shaman) and more interested in getting rid of the sorcerer kings and restoring the planet as it was during the Green Age.
To return ot the main topic, accepting that a player take the demigod epic destiny could be the way to create a new divine being (avangions and sorcerer-kings are not divine beings, technically speaking (power source that is). It would of course require worship from a large number of people though and thus could quite possibly happen but also quite dangerous with the sorcerer-kings and the Dragon nearby. Why would a demigod be forced to live in the Astral Sea anyway? He could just remain on Athas and develop his religion there, granting divine power to their worshipers.
No being in Athas have what is called 'hope', without hope people don't see much reason in prayers, without prayers you don't have much a god huh?
Maybe there is an Astral Sea, or gods wandering about, but they are unable to do anything, because in Athas the Astral Sea is like a Prison, once you accend to godhood, you become trapped by something really powerful unexplainable.
You can DM an entire epic level adventure of PCs inside the Astral Sea trying to "unlock" it from the inside, and discover a fistful of information on gods, the ages of athas, the dragon, Rajaat, while trying to break free from there.
Now i know that Athas is different, but i dont see how the Astral Sea cant be "repaired" by some epic level character or even the Avangions or even the pyreen any insights would be most welcome
Because you can't make a god. Because sometimes something is too damaged to fix. As for becoming something as powerful as a god, well, that is pretty much what the dragon is, and what the sorcerer kings/theoretically existing avangions are in the process of doing...
You absolutely can make a god. Read the demi god epic destiny. You become a god. You start small, but you are a god regardless. You can grant divine aid, do god type things, and over time you can become a more powerful god, perhaps reaching the status of greater god someday.
As to fixing things, why not? You're a god. Or, more likely, a group of gods. Hell, you don't even have to live in the astral sea at first. You can create a dominion on athas, hidden from the rest of the world. Start healing the world in noticable ways, and worshippers will flock to you. Even if they have to hide their worship from the sorcerer kings.
I made a fey pact hexblade for dark sun who sacrificed himself to himself using ancient rituals and channeling the power of a place with a very powerful primal magic pressence and a permanent tie to one of the few remaining realms of the land within the wind. His pact is with himself/that place/what he is becoming. His epic destiny will be Chosen, and at the end of his adventuring career, should he survive, he will attain apotheosis.
A different character in the same campaign is a revenant avenger. He has no god, but instead is an avenger of Athas. He died as a powerful shaman, killed by templars of the now dead sorc king of Tyr. In the grey, his will was strong enough that he kept his mind completely in tact, and set about studying the metaphysical make up of athas, while forcing his soul to re-constitute a new body over the course of centuries. In the process of that, he learned that Athas had once had gods, and that they had looked upon the defilement of their world with disgust, and had abandoned Athas to it's fate.
In a moment of unimaginable wrath, he forced this knowledge into the conciousnesses of all the minds he could find in the grey, alive and dead, and used their emotional responses to being faced with this knowledge in such a visceral manner to power a ritual that reached across the cosmos, finding the ancient athasian gods of good, who were the most to blame in his mind, and drove a fishhook into their power, syphoning it to power his rebirth, and grant him divine power at the expense of their pain.
Now, as he gains knowledge, he is able to channel greater amounts of that divine power, with the goal of eventually either dragging the gods back to the world they abandoned and forcing them to save it, or failing that, replace them himself.
Why can't gamers resist tweaking established worlds? Really, if you don't like the world as is; take the parts you do like for a homebrew world of your own creation.
Better question: Why can't some gamers handle other gamers doing things in a world that in no way effects the disgruntled gamer?
Dregoth wanted to become a god but could not, because there are no divine conduits to allow gods to come into being.
If one wants to redefine the basic laws of Dark Sun I can't see a real problem with it (if it suits your game), but it would never happen if one sticks to the old style cannon.
My understanding of the good old days was that there were no divine conduits. As a result there is no way to access the divine power source because gods cannot access the power of their believers. Consequently they cannot exist in the same way that gods exist in other setting.
Dregoth wanted to become a god but could not, because there are no divine conduits to allow gods to come into being.
If one wants to redefine the basic laws of Dark Sun I can't see a real problem with it (if it suits your game), but it would never happen if one sticks to the old style cannon.
Fair points, all.
A couple things:
First, the old style cannon isn't necessarily valid in 4th edition. I generally prefer to use any old cannon that doesn't conflict with new cannon, but if there's an issue, I always place priority on the latest cannon.
Second, there's absolutely no reason that new divine conduits can't be created. Or a different way of functioning as a god can't be found.
Certainly, a group of PCs at the apex of their epic destinies, on the verge of, or having just achieved apotheosis, can solve the problem.
Third, gods at some point existed on Athas in 4th edition. How do I know that? The very fact that the official campaign god mentions the possibility of finding wasted old forgotten gods in the desert means that the continued existence of a god or gods is possible, and thus the former existence of a god or gods is certain, or very nearly so.
My solution would be that there were once conduits, but they were severed by the gods as they abandoned Athas. One or two stayed, dying off or becoming powerful non divine entities. Players who wish to return divine magic to Athas can do so as their epic destiny, or possibly in paragon, with the aftermath being the focus of the rest of the campaign.
"Canon". The word is "canon".
I am deeply sorry. In fact...ok, nevermind. I really don't care.
My understanding of the good old days was that there were no divine conduits. As a result there is no way to access the divine power source because gods cannot access the power of their believers. Consequently they cannot exist in the same way that gods exist in other setting.
Dregoth wanted to become a god but could not, because there are no divine conduits to allow gods to come into being.
If one wants to redefine the basic laws of Dark Sun I can't see a real problem with it (if it suits your game), but it would never happen if one sticks to the old style cannon.
Fair points, all.
A couple things:
First, the old style cannon isn't necessarily valid in 4th edition. I generally prefer to use any old cannon that doesn't conflict with new cannon, but if there's an issue, I always place priority on the latest cannon.
Second, there's absolutely no reason that new divine conduits can't be created. Or a different way of functioning as a god can't be found.
Certainly, a group of PCs at the apex of their epic destinies, on the verge of, or having just achieved apotheosis, can solve the problem.
Third, gods at some point existed on Athas in 4th edition. How do I know that? The very fact that the official campaign god mentions the possibility of finding wasted old forgotten gods in the desert means that the continued existence of a god or gods is possible, and thus the former existence of a god or gods is certain, or very nearly so.
My solution would be that there were once conduits, but they were severed by the gods as they abandoned Athas. One or two stayed, dying off or becoming powerful non divine entities. Players who wish to return divine magic to Athas can do so as their epic destiny, or possibly in paragon, with the aftermath being the focus of the rest of the campaign.
If I ever had players that intended to become Gods, it would be pretty easy to flavor to universe, for example:
The Astral Plane exists. It might have been home to Gods or benevolent beings at some point, but not anymore. The Astral plane now exists as a barren sea of demons and crazed beings from the outer realms. The sea is devoid of life-giving resources, similar to the Sea of Silt and how it used to be a blue ocean. If any demi-planes exist, they might be merely ruins from a past age, or fortresses isolated from the rest of the universe. If the Gods lost the war with the Primordials, the demi-planes are probably being reformed in the image of Primordials or other powerful beings (from the Far Realms? there are no Gods to stop them...) that roam the Astral Sea.
Conduits exist, but without Gods or beings interested in shepherding the souls of the dead, the conduits are now clogged with dead mortal spirits. Mortal scholars call these passageways the "Grey" and are currently unusable.
PCs intending to become Gods might have make their way through a conduit, fashion a demi-plane (make a new one by negotiating with a Primordial being, re-establish one from existing ruins, steal one from an active demi-plane, etc) and then clear a conduit of dead to re-establish communication with Athas.
Are the spirits in the Gray stopping PCs from adventuring out into the Astral Sea? Or are they there to protect Athas from something beyond? Does the Dragon have some control over the spirits in the Gray?
My understanding of the good old days was that there were no divine conduits. As a result there is no way to access the divine power source because gods cannot access the power of their believers. Consequently they cannot exist in the same way that gods exist in other setting.
Dregoth wanted to become a god but could not, because there are no divine conduits to allow gods to come into being.
If one wants to redefine the basic laws of Dark Sun I can't see a real problem with it (if it suits your game), but it would never happen if one sticks to the old style cannon.
Fair points, all.
A couple things:
First, the old style cannon isn't necessarily valid in 4th edition. I generally prefer to use any old cannon that doesn't conflict with new cannon, but if there's an issue, I always place priority on the latest cannon.
Second, there's absolutely no reason that new divine conduits can't be created. Or a different way of functioning as a god can't be found.
Certainly, a group of PCs at the apex of their epic destinies, on the verge of, or having just achieved apotheosis, can solve the problem.
Third, gods at some point existed on Athas in 4th edition. How do I know that? The very fact that the official campaign god mentions the possibility of finding wasted old forgotten gods in the desert means that the continued existence of a god or gods is possible, and thus the former existence of a god or gods is certain, or very nearly so.
My solution would be that there were once conduits, but they were severed by the gods as they abandoned Athas. One or two stayed, dying off or becoming powerful non divine entities. Players who wish to return divine magic to Athas can do so as their epic destiny, or possibly in paragon, with the aftermath being the focus of the rest of the campaign.
If I ever had players that intended to become Gods, it would be pretty easy to flavor to universe, for example:
The Astral Plane exists. It might have been home to Gods or benevolent beings at some point, but not anymore. The Astral plane now exists as a barren sea of demons and crazed beings from the outer realms. The sea is devoid of life-giving resources, similar to the Sea of Silt and how it used to be a blue ocean. If any demi-planes exist, they might be merely ruins from a past age, or fortresses isolated from the rest of the universe. If the Gods lost the war with the Primordials, the demi-planes are probably being reformed in the image of Primordials or other powerful beings (from the Far Realms? there are no Gods to stop them...) that roam the Astral Sea.
Conduits exist, but without Gods or beings interested in shepherding the souls of the dead, the conduits are now clogged with dead mortal spirits. Mortal scholars call these passageways the "Grey" and are currently unusable.
PCs intending to become Gods might have make their way through a conduit, fashion a demi-plane (make a new one by negotiating with a Primordial being, re-establish one from existing ruins, steal one from an active demi-plane, etc) and then clear a conduit of dead to re-establish communication with Athas.
Are the spirits in the Gray stopping PCs from adventuring out into the Astral Sea? Or are they there to protect Athas from something beyond? Does the Dragon have some control over the spirits in the Gray?
khorne37: I like it. Not necessarily the way that I would go, but I would certainly be interested if my DM proposed it.
It just may be the destiny of a group of Pcs to do just that and become the gods of a reborn Athas.
I like this idea a lot. I'm planning to run a Dark Sun campaign in the near future and was mapping out the story arcs for each tier. You have just given me my epic tier goal. Thanks!
If you want to stick to the rules of the world and not deviate then NO GODs can be on athas as they were killed off or forced out of this particular world. If you want to make games revolve around trying to bring them back there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing that can not be done in the game as the DM is the one who makes all the decissions ultimately. If you are trying to make a work around from the rules to make something happen that the world is not built for then you are just creating a varient world similiar to the original.
Avangions (which were in 2e) are pretty much pantheistic Messiahs, and are closer to some real-world conceptions of God ("Through the incarnation, God descended into nature in order to super-animate and take it back to him" - Teilhard de Chardin; also c.f. Avatar in Hinduism, Anima Mundi of Paracelsus and Spinoza, and Gaia theory) than the "gods" (more like really powerful angels) in other settings. The issue is that the "divine" tag from other settings is wiped out. I'd say a successful Avangion would be pretty much divine, even without a tag saying so.
Primal characters also have the potential to become divine without the "divine" tag as well. The Fire priest theology from 2e's Earth, Air, Fire and Water is pretty much taken from Zoroastrian-influenced Neoplatonism (something the early Christian church, medieval Kabbalists and Sufis ate right up).
Honestly the bottom line is this: It is your world and you can do anything you like with it. If you want Bozo the clown to be the supreme being of Atas he can be. If you want the gods to return to Athas it is your will.
If you want to stick to the rules of the world and not deviate then NO GODs can be on athas as they were killed off or forced out of this particular world. If you want to make games revolve around trying to bring them back there is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing that can not be done in the game as the DM is the one who makes all the decissions ultimately. If you are trying to make a work around from the rules to make something happen that the world is not built for then you are just creating a varient world similiar to the original.
No, if you stick to the rules, then the PCs START in a world without gods. It's up to the DM and the players to decide if the PCs end their adventures in a world without gods. You might as well say that Tolkien created several different Middle Earths, one where Sauron existed, one where he was trapped in a ring, and one where he was destroyed. There is this thing called change, and it happens over time. Stories, like the kind created by D&D and other RPGs, revolve around change. Show me where, in the rules, it says "you cannot bring gods back to Athas, thus we, Wizards of the Coast, do mandate."
Note that the sorcerer-kings will probably NOT take rivals lightly, so any would-be godling is likely to draw an awful lot of unwanted interference down on himself. Of course, that is what Epic Tier is for...