After a thousand years (or more, or whatever), Borys and all the surviving SKs couldn't think of a way to permanently destroy their imprisoned former master. Sadira and the Heroes couldn't kill him either.
Why?
Can someone explain to me exactly why this was, and using the PP or something sane, not R&FoaDK drivel?
Curious to see what you guys think.
Rajaat's knowledge was way beyond theirs. There was a time where Dregoth crushed his skull with his Maul, and it still didn't kill them. They even suggested cutting him up and each taking a piece, but they didn't because Sacha and Wyan could let one of them regenerate back to full Rajaat.
It's never said why Rajaat could not be dealt with, in Rise and Fall or another source. What one can read between the lines, though, is that after he was imprisonned his former servants cast him out of their minds as much as possible, giving their lives over to other pursuits. They had a foolproof prison and a foolproof prison-maintaining system, and balance and peace was maintained between their numbers by the only authorithy they accepted to recognize. What more could one ask for? To seek a more permanent solution - after the fiasco of their rebellion - was to run after the devil's tail and risk big. Safety foremost.
One thing I did like in R&FoaDK was the discussions of the Traitors about what they were going to do with Rajaat after they defeated him. In that book, they tried all these different things, had all these different ideas, but nothing could take him out of the picture permanently.
It's actually pretty terrifying, if you think about it; Rajaat, always there somewhere, waiting to unleash his awesome power.
I could not say why really, at least not right now without review the pertinent materials.
I might very a guess though, if anyone wants to comment. Rajaat, in 2nd box, drew up energy from that lovely swamp, and drew upon the spirit of Athas itself. To this he still seems to have a link, and a very strong one, which might explain his utterly incredible Elemental powers (turning the sun blue again, changing statues to look like halflings, sea water from fingertips, etc.). He may not be capable of dying, or perhaps, like a Spirit of the Land, he would have to be defiled to death, and that might mean an awful lot of defiling if we are talking about the Spirit of the Land of Athas itself.
Just a thought. What do you fellows think?
Rajaat was a Pyreen. The Pyreen's are the most "perfect" of species on Athas, therefore we can conclude that they have a connection to the old Lifeshapers and their powers. This being said, can we assume that perhaps all Pyreens are indestructible, but not un-killable.
So Rajaat, like other Pyreens, can always regenerate and rejuvenate after death so long as he is connected to Athas. He did not die in the Hallow merely existed in extra dimensional in a deathless state.
So Rajaat is immortal and indestructible because he is forever linked into Athas' life force.
Ok, thats all.....
Rajaat could have been killed by his champions, but the problem is that doing so would have taken research into how to do it, during which time Rajaat would have found a way to regenerate his form and deal with his traitorous champions at his leisure. The champions, having ambushed Rajaat successfully, were in a situation where they had to act quickly to do something to solve the Rajaat problem. They tried to kill him, but no matter how much damage they did to his body, his life force persisted. It is quite likely that faced with this, and until this point generally in awe of the war bringer, concluded that he could not be killed and gave up even trying.
I would say that Rajaat could be killed, but the method by which it could be done is a secret known to Rajaat only. Perhaps the secret of Rajaat's true death is in the steeple of crystals.
Here is my theory.
Rajaat could have been killed by his champions, but the problem is that doing so would have taken research into how to do it, during which time Rajaat would have found a way to regenerate his form and deal with his traitorous champions at his leisure. The champions, having ambushed Rajaat successfully, were in a situation where they had to act quickly to do something to solve the Rajaat problem. They tried to kill him, but no matter how much damage they did to his body, his life force persisted. It is quite likely that faced with this, and until this point generally in awe of the war bringer, concluded that he could not be killed and gave up even trying.
I would say that Rajaat could be killed, but the method by which it could be done is a secret known to Rajaat only. Perhaps the secret of Rajaat's true death is in the steeple of crystals.
Also some really good points, redking. That's kind of how I see things. They really didn't have time to figure out what to do or by what means Rajaat made himself so invulnerable. I would agree that it's probably possible to kill him but finding out how before he kills you first is the hard part and since he's trapped in the black it's not like you can study him to find out. That and the fact the world in which he accumulated his power is completely changed and finding clues would be next to impossible....
This is a straightforward enough query. What couldn't Rajaat be killed? It seems that not even all the Traitors could permanently destroy him.
IMHO, because he had permanently linked himself to the elemental planes, specifically, to the Elemental Plane of Water. That is, he is not entirely pyreen anymore. He is the first advanced being, only he combined psionics and magic to bind himself to the Elemental Plane of Water. He may have bound himself permanently to one or more elemental vortices, absorbing them into himself and becoming one with them. Only...unlike Sorcerer-Monarchs...he can tap the power of the vortice(s) himself. He has successfully combined arcane, elemental and psionic power sources into one.
Because of this connection, he might...he just might...be part of, if not the major cause of the lack of water on Athas. He is so intimately bound to it, that he acts as the single most potent conduit between it and Athas. When he was trapped, the normally cyclical nature of water ceased to be. Too much of the raw element of water is funneled to him, and not to Athas itself. Even before being trapped, the raw element was going to him, and not to the world at large. He likely hid this, although the aftereffects are still present. The swamp beneath the Jagged Cliffs are permanently filled with mist and swampy, watery wetlands. This, it was hinted, was where much of his research was being conducted.
Because he is now essentially simultaneously existent in the material plane and the Elemental Plane of Water, killing him becomes nigh impossible without the ability to first destroy that link. The Elemental Plane of Water is intimately tied to the power of LIFE. Thus, he is constantly flooded with life-giving power, endlessly replenishing.
His current prison is, thanks to the lens, allowing water back into the world in a manner not seen in millennia, likely beyond his control. As with the swamp, an area intimately connected with Rajaat seems awash with water.
That's my theory, at least.
Here's a theory, deconstruct as you wish:
Rajaat was a Pyreen. The Pyreen's are the most "perfect" of species on Athas, therefore we can conclude that they have a connection to the old Lifeshapers and their powers. This being said, can we assume that perhaps all Pyreens are indestructible, but not un-killable.
So Rajaat, like other Pyreens, can always regenerate and rejuvenate after death so long as he is connected to Athas. He did not die in the Hallow merely existed in extra dimensional in a deathless state.
So Rajaat is immortal and indestructible because he is forever linked into Athas' life force.
Ok, thats all.....
Oh my, what a lovely idea! And it plays well with phaaf_glien's previous idea too: that all pyreens are immortal, trully. And it explains that many who have "died" when they grew tiered of the world could have retreated into the fold of a spirit of the land, sheding their bodies and permanently merging their life force with the spirit.
Kinda like alot of fantasy books where you can only kill XYZ being with ABC weapon. Kal Torak ad the Orb of Aldur in the Belgariad, Sauron and the one ring, etc etc.
I follow and agree with the essentials of much of what you had to offer. My question is, why the water association?
I assume you draw this conclusion from the fact that Rajaat draws down clouds from the sky to act as flesh, and that he pours seawater from his fingertips in gargantuan amounts and that he uses spells that are like storms and commands giant fish. Understandable. Surely this demonstrates an extremely strong affinity with the Element.
Rajaat does other things while he is free though. First and foremost, he changes the color of the sun. If you can explain this to me, I am all ears. The only thing I can imagine is an infinite access (both in duration and in scope) to the raw power of either the Planes of Fire, Sun, Radiance or all three (probably Fire... Denning said he didn't like paraelemental stuff, and thought of Caelum and Rkard as fire clerics, not sun clerics). Also, Rajaat's mere presence seems to change statues of human generals, viziers and templars into statues of halflings (Elemental Earth?).
In either case, everything Rajaat does, from the sun to the water and the statues, etc., is done with association not so much to the elemental planes, but association with a the Blue Age, another time.
If we do argue Rajaat's powers are elemental, I have to argue, Tectutktitlay (love the name you chose, and the fist [so fitting]), that we are not simply talking about a link to Elemental Water. Indeed, the transformation is the sun is almost infinitely more dramatic and extensive than the massive amounts of sea water (note, not pure water) Rajaat was pouring in. To me, we thus have to imagine Rajaat has extreme links to Elemental Fire and Water (Sun or Water, or whatever), and indeed, in all likelihood, if we give our ascent to those two planes, we might as well include all the Inner Planes.
The creation of life that Rajaat manages, however, indicates extreme and seemingly almost infinite "life-shaping" or "life-bending" powers, which to me were probably beyond any of the life shaping the ancient halfling could have done. Instantly, he makes that grown building stuff, fish and aquatic life aplenty, etc. Perhaps his inability to die is tied to the incredible life shaping knowledge to which he has access.
Indeed, it's really hard for me to transfer those last pages of the CS into game terms. I'm not sure Denning really thought of those events in game terms. It is useful for us to do so though.
Extreme skills in life shaping and infinite access to the elemental planes seems plausible and logical Tectuktitlay. I agree with your idea that elemental links, or as pennarin posits, the links with the spirits of the land, must be SEVERED for him to be killed; this, and the fact that his life shaping powers are such that exterminating every last germ of his body would probably be very difficult, as he has somehow marvelously differentiated his physical form and his spirit (and mind and essence).
Rajaat is pretty darn tough.
I'd be curious to see what you fellows have further to say. I'd like to solve Rajaat in game terms, as I think that would allow for a host of other issues to gain some clarity.
Laudable posts all, I must say.
It could be that in making the SKs into his Champions Rajaat instilled a sort of a fail safe that he could not be killed by his students in the event of their betrayal. Its been established that he's capable such feats. Take the Scourge of Rhard for example. Rajaat created that blade and some how made Hammanu immune to its affects. Why couldn't he have done something similar with the SKs in relation to himself?
It's even been suggested that Rajaat cannot be killed while the Traitors still live, a curious and disturbing possibility.
Good points I say.
Rajaat was a Pyreen. The Pyreen's are the most "perfect" of species on Athas, therefore we can conclude that they have a connection to the old Lifeshapers and their powers. This being said, can we assume that perhaps all Pyreens are indestructible, but not un-killable.
That doesn't seem to be what Troy Denning was saying, it says in the Cerulean storm, something like "He tried to rectify his hideous appearance with his human spirit" it implies he was a deformed human.
Interestingly, even Slavicsek, when he started taking control of Dark Sun directly, with the publication of Beyond the Prism Pentad, does not anywhere in that supplement refer to Rajaat as a pyreen... he hadn't come up with it yet. Instead, he calls Rajaat a "being," whatever that means.
Slavicsek just made the pyreen thing up. It was published in the 2nd box materials, and like I said, most people here prefer it that way.
Denning had no pyreen in mind though; I think that that is really quite obvious at this point.
Refer to our previous thread if you'd like a more thorough discussion.
http://69.8.198.225/showthread.php?t=281034
That's enough for now.
A response to Tectuktitlay:
I follow and agree with the essentials of much of what you had to offer. My question is, why the water association?
I assume you draw this conclusion from the fact that Rajaat draws down clouds from the sky to act as flesh, and that he pours seawater from his fingertips in gargantuan amounts and that he uses spells that are like storms and commands giant fish. Understandable. Surely this demonstrates an extremely strong affinity with the Element.
Two reasons. One, the end of the PP, yes. Second, the only other area in-world we have that is DIRECTLY associated with Rajaat is The Swamp. And it is described as causing perpetual mists, and contains water much deeper than it looks. Moreover, it was the focal point for at least some of his experimentation. Thus, we have two examples of Rajaat's immediate vicinity being greatly influenced by water.
We also have Rajaat linking his Dark Lens-created Sorcerer-Monarchs bonded to conduits with the elemental planes. In their case, to all the planes simultaneously, but seemingly to a much less significant degree than the magnitude with which Rajaat manipulates the elemental power he is seen utilizing.
Rajaat does other things while he is free though. First and foremost, he changes the color of the sun. If you can explain this to me, I am all ears. The only thing I can imagine is an infinite access (both in duration and in scope) to the raw power of either the Planes of Fire, Sun, Radiance or all three (probably Fire... Denning said he didn't like paraelemental stuff, and thought of Caelum and Rkard as fire clerics, not sun clerics). Also, Rajaat's mere presence seems to change statues of human generals, viziers and templars into statues of halflings (Elemental Earth?).
The Sun bit is, in my mind, nothing more than an illusion. This is something his immediate presence altered. However, I see it mentioned nowhere that the REST of Athas experienced a blue sun. That is likely to get some mention, as an omen ala the Messenger, or similar. Thus, that was nothing more than the sun appearing as he wishes it to in his presence. The water, however, appears to be concrete, and exists beyond Rajaat's re-imprisonment. The statues might be the same, or might be nothing more than a manifestation of the Way, or use of preserving magic. Altering the physical form of an existing object seems to fall within either of those spheres, especially an inanimate object. Creating massive, unseen amounts of water that sticks around afterwards, however, is not within the realm of the Way or magic. It is, however, within the sphere of clerics of water, albeit to a significantly greater degree.
In either case, everything Rajaat does, from the sun to the water and the statues, etc., is done with association not so much to the elemental planes, but association with a the Blue Age, another time.
Right, those were more the force of his will acting on his immediate vicinity, to express a time he wishes to bring back to Athas.
*snip bits about the sun, as I explain my view of that above*
The creation of life that Rajaat manages, however, indicates extreme and seemingly almost infinite "life-shaping" or "life-bending" powers, which to me were probably beyond any of the life shaping the ancient halfling could have done. Instantly, he makes that grown building stuff, fish and aquatic life aplenty, etc. Perhaps his inability to die is tied to the incredible life shaping knowledge to which he has access.
Now, life-shaping and life-bending ARE likely powers Rajaat has explored, what with his obsession with the Blue Age. Combined with magic, psionics, and the elements (especially the life-giving element of Water), life-shaping does indeed seem to fit with what he was doing to the world, bringing back the coral-grown buildings, etc. Remember, Rajaat has also studied the life-altering powers of the Pristine Tower, as well. He has studied artifacts of immense power from the Blue Age, Green Age, and Age of Magic.
Indeed, it's really hard for me to transfer those last pages of the CS into game terms. I'm not sure Denning really thought of those events in game terms. It is useful for us to do so though.
I really do think it was nothing more than an illusion of his ideal world, in terms of the sun turning blue. A bit of flair, if you will, until he can do it for real.
Extreme skills in life shaping and infinite access to the elemental planes seems plausible and logical Tectuktitlay. I agree with your idea that elemental links, or as pennarin posits, the links with the spirits of the land, must be SEVERED for him to be killed; this, and the fact that his life shaping powers are such that exterminating every last germ of his body would probably be very difficult, as he has somehow marvelously differentiated his physical form and his spirit (and mind and essence).
Rajaat is pretty darn tough.
I like the idea of a link with the Spirit of the Land...however, I do not know that I agree with it. The Spirits of the Land appear to be the combined consciousnesses of manyfold millennia worth of sentients, and perhaps the sum has manifested a greater consciousness beyond the many minds making up it/them. I do not know that the Spirits of the Land would agree to be party to his plans of genocide of all races save the halflings, and the return of a fully blue planet. The Spirits of the Land, to me, seem to be more of a construct of the Green Age, not the Blue Age, as that appears to be the age that both psionics and elemental magic emerged. Spirits of the Land seem very likely to me to some sort of combination of elemental links and psionic imprinting upon the land (think object reading, or other psychic imprints, on a much grander scale, building upon itself once started for thousands upon thousands of years).
In your defense, Beyond the Prism Pentad emphasizes that Rajaat has some special connection with the Elemental Plane of Water, but that publication, and its author, Bill Slavicsek, are, especially in my estimation, very poor sources to draw upon.
As to the issue of Rajaat's swamp, which Slavicsek made up, not Denning, here is the info from 2nd box:
Rajaat discovered "magic" about 8,000 years ago, that strange and mystical science that had heretofore not occurred on Athas. he could only accomplish small things at first, but he eventually found a place of power where he could experiment in secret. It was an idyllic glen surrounded by a forest of green and intersected by a river of glistening blue, and it was located at the base of the Jagged Cliffs. Here, secluded and hidden from his fellow pyreen, Rajaat learnedto draw energy from life itself to power his magic. But in dong so, the meadow turned into a dire fen, a swamp of foul proportions-and the First Sorcerer was born. (tWC, 12)
It was a garden of Eden, Jannat Allah, which had a river, but it was not solely or even centrally associated with water.
Granted, water is what is emphasized in The Cerulean Storm. This has more to do with Rajaat's obsession with the Blue Age however, and not any overriding interest in water or the Elemental Plane of Water. Like I emphasized, the water he produced was salt water, just like in the Blue Age.
His effect on the world is not Water oriented, but Blue Age oriented. How he accomplished this is what we are discussing.
It seems very difficult for me to accept your illusion hypothesis. Such seems to me to be only an easy solution to a difficult problem, as, again, nowhere in the CS are these effects even hinted at being illusions. They are all the more terrifying and impressive because they are really happening.
It is not that my theories are necessarily correct. I am open to options. Perhaps Rajaat just Willed these things to happen (don't ask me how). Perhaps we are dealing with some bizarre time traveling, or time altering ability.
Rajaat's access to the Elemental Planes seems a good guess though, to me at least. I really can't accept it as being just an illusion that the sun changed color. If Rajaat was for illusions, he would have just covered his ugly ass with one a long time ago, and the Cleansing Wars and all that would never have happened.
Ha.
Well. Good debate.
Curious to see your response.
Not to be blue Tec, but I do fear your illusion interpretation seems a little forced. There is not even a hint that any of what we see in the CS is an illusion at all. Truly, I think what happened really happened.
Nope, just an illusion. The primary piece of evidence for me is this: When Rkard tapped the power of the actual sun as it really existed in the (DM-universe) here-and-now...it was red. It was the dark sun, not the blue sun of a bygone era. It both shattered the illusion of the blue sun hanging over the Valley of Dust and Fire, and trapped Rajaat through the elimination of his shadow.
Again, it is mentioned nowhere else afterwards in any way, shape or form, not even once, even after the acknowledged appearance of the Tyr-storms, that the sun turned blue. Considering that a mere comet was seen as a portent of doom, and its disappearance likewise, some brief mention of a world-spanning event like the sun changing would surely make it into even a single sentence, somewhere.
As for Rajaat's shadow, that, too is obviously part of it. He is linked to life (through magic and life-shaping), to the elements but especially water, seems powerfully psionic, and is linked to the Black seemingly due to his time in the Hollow. He seems to be expanding his connection to as much of reality as he possibly can, piece by piece, era by era, with patience and focus, and sometimes out of pragmatism.
As to the issue of Rajaat's swamp, which Slavicsek made up, not Denning, here is the info from 2nd box:
Rajaat discovered "magic" about 8,000 years ago, that strange and mystical science that had heretofore not occurred on Athas. he could only accomplish small things at first, but he eventually found a place of power where he could experiment in secret. It was an idyllic glen surrounded by a forest of green and intersected by a river of glistening blue, and it was located at the base of the Jagged Cliffs. Here, secluded and hidden from his fellow pyreen, Rajaat learnedto draw energy from life itself to power his magic. But in dong so, the meadow turned into a dire fen, a swamp of foul proportions-and the First Sorcerer was born. (tWC, 12)
It was a garden of Eden, Jannat Allah, which had a river, but it was not solely or even centrally associated with water.
However...this was during the Green Age. Before the Age of Magic, which he himself ushered in. This was a time where the entire WORLD was covered in the environs of a standard fantasy world, by and large. There was a healthy mix of forest, savannah, oceans, rivers, desert, mountains, and so on. This was before the defilers and the war began to destroy the land, and prevent new growth. This was before the seas were slowly replaced with silt. This is an era in which a garden of lush beauty was not rare in the least, but rather an everyday part of life.
However, The Swamp is STILL a place deeply connected to water, even in the Age of Sorcerer-Kings, after most of the waters have been destroyed. Although the Crimson Savannah has rivers snaking throughout it, and is certainly much healthier in terms of the level of moisture, The Swamp is described as much deeper than it appears, and is a confluence of water where everything seems to stay permanently moist, misty, and perverted by life-bending and defiler magic simultaneously.
Granted, water is what is emphasized in The Cerulean Storm. This has more to do with Rajaat's obsession with the Blue Age however, and not any overriding interest in water or the Elemental Plane of Water. Like I emphasized, the water he produced was salt water, just like in the Blue Age.
His effect on the world is not Water oriented, but Blue Age oriented. How he accomplished this is what we are discussing.
In my opinion, he has too powerful a link to Water. Water is obviously grievously wounded, metaphysically speaking. Look at what is in abundance in Athas: Silt, fire, the sun, wind, earth, rock, magma. What is missing? Water. Water forms clouds, which blocks the harmful rays of the sun. Oceans likewise absorb heat, and keep silt mired at the bottom of the depths. Clouds cause rain, which causes otherwise barren rocks to be rich earth, teeming with life. Wind and water combined cools. Water turns magma back into rock. All of the elements on Athas are in abundance...save Water. Without this key element, although the other elements gain in power, that power isn't tempered. Something is wrong, and Water is one of the huge, major keys to what is wrong with Athas. And the greatest link to Water we've seen, the only being we've seen AT ALL capable of simply summoning vast amounts of water on a whim, is Rajaat. His old lab...covered in water to this day. His prison...covered in water. His vision...a world covered in water. I think he formed TOO powerful a link to Water, and his very existence, or perhaps merely his very imprisonment, is slowly destroying Water.
It seems very difficult for me to accept your illusion hypothesis. Such seems to me to be only an easy solution to a difficult problem, as, again, nowhere in the CS are these effects even hinted at being illusions. They are all the more terrifying and impressive because they are really happening.
Rkard, and his link to the actual sun, and his summoning of the sun's actual, tangible power, even in the presence of the Warbringer himself, points to this one aspect of Rajaat's appearance being illusion. Else, the massive sun summoned by Rkard would have been a blue sun, for, being a cleric of the sun, he was ACTUALLY tapping into the REAL power of the sun itself.
Rajaat's access to the Elemental Planes seems a good guess though, to me at least. I really can't accept it as being just an illusion that the sun changed color. If Rajaat was for illusions, he would have just covered his ugly ass with one a long time ago, and the Cleansing Wars and all that would never have happened.
I actually doubt the illusion was even conscious. As for the sun...my understanding is this: The sun was blue. The halfings used the Pristine Tower to physically funnel energy AWAY from the sun to destroy the Brown Tide. This changed the sun yellow, and they could not put it right, and feed energy back to the sun to make it blue once more. That change was irrevocable, at their level of understanding. When Rajaat used the power of the sun to make his Champions, he funneled still more energy from the sun, changing it from yellow to red. When Sadira was at the Tower, she too was bound to the sun itself. The Pristine Tower is, per the evidence I've seen, linked to the sun, able to focus the energy of the sun, bind things to it, and so on. At least, that is but one aspect of the Tower, which seems likely to be linked to all of the elements, and to life-shaping and life-bending. It is likely one of the most potent constructs of Blue Age technology. With Rajaat's understanding of the many different energies of Athas' metaphysics, who knows? Maybe he was going to use the Tower, combined with defiling/preserving magic, and take the energy of the living beings across the world and feed them back to the sun, turning it blue. It certainly seems possible with the metaphysical make-up of the Athasian universe, and the forms of energy utilized therein (Elemental and life energy; When you break it all down, that's it. Preserving/defiling magic utilizes the life-force of others. Psionics instead taps into one's own life-force. Life-shaping merely shapes and bends existing life-force, rather than taking away).
I don't know that Rajaat cares what others think of his looks. He seems to self-obsessed. Even if he looks gorgeous, HE still knows what he is. HE still knows the history of the world, and that the world is supposed to belong to the halflings, not to the New Races, be they human, dwarf, elf, or even pyreen. He seems to know and understand that all of the races of the world ARE halflings...merely distorted, deformed halflings. Like his deformation, only less obvious. He seems to wear his own deformation like a badge of honor, not a badge of shame. He flaunts it, he doesn't hide it. He exaggerates and emphasizes it, rather than diminish it. Why he is obsessed with brining Water back to the world, life-shaping back to the world, and handing it all back to the halflings...that is an unknown. Part of his past we simply aren't privy to. He was giving the world back to the halflings under the GUISE of giving it to the humans. Even in the PP, the Sorcerer-Monarchs were SHOCKED at his plan once discovered. He was lying to them, using them. Likely, because humans were the most powerful overall race, due to an ability to both breed swiftly, and adapt quickly. They aren't an overspecialized race, but rather are good at everything. They could use magic faster, they were psionic experts in that era, and could use elemental magics, and hints are that druidic magics likewise existed at the time, meaning they could also tap into the Spirit of the Land. Being such a versatile, abundant race made them a great choice. That they are also warlike, and humans often engage in genocide against their own, made them the perfect choice.
Slavicsek just made the pyreen thing up. It was published in the 2nd box materials, and like I said, most people here prefer it that way.
Denning had no pyreen in mind though; I think that that is really quite obvious at this point.
I have to ask...as a game world grows and more people add to the pot isn't that the way it always works...since Denning left his race in quastion...and salvicsek answered it...doesn't that by defult make it right?
Whateer the blue sun in the Valley of Dust and Fire it was a localised efect, illusion or not. Hell it may have been a manifestation of Rajaats desires rather than an illusion.
I would go for localized effect. He really did change all those things, the statues, the halfling rock, the sun, really did happen within what he called the "blue lands". He was literally bending reality, but he was out such a short time that it had no permanence at all. It was a taste of the blue age to come.
Could have been anything really. A vision of the past, future, an illusion, a projection, a fantasy who knows? Maybe not even the authors or Rajaat himself. Any of us could be right and we can't really prove each other wrong.
However, as to the general consensus that the blue sun was localized, credence to this being given especially because it is not mentioned in 2nd box materials--I cannot agree.
Slavicsek, although passionate and knowledgeable about DS, was not a careful researcher. His understanding of the events of the PP is basic, even crude or downright incorrect at times, and he fed his interpretations and new vision for Athas into the materials he brought about during the 2nd box era. Just look at Beyond the Prism Pentad and the 2nd box itself for evidence of this.
In all honesty, he probably forgot or glossed over the fact that there was a blue sun for a time, or he forgot or glossed over it enough so that he did not bother to mention it when describing such things as the Great Earthquake and everything else that happened after the events of the CS. Slavicsek was just sloppy that way, as one can see especially in how he handled Beyond the Prism Pentad. The Dark Lens was destroyed in the end of the CS, but for him, he reads over this and says it is still there, in the Valley of the Cerulean Storm. Indeed, the very quake which we know as the Great Earthquake might very well have been inspired by the quaking from when the Lens was cast into the lava destroyed... the destruction of such a powerful artifact sending shockwaves across Athas that loosed the tectonic plates near the Kreen Empire, etc.
Slavicsek was sloppy, and just because he doesn't mention the fact that the sun turned blue, doesn't mean that that was not the case.
On the other hand, some of you I think argue quite well for the case that the effects were all local. It is hard to imagine how the sun is local, but one could always ascribe it to the supernatural.
Good discussion.
Here's an alternate theory, but one that uses material published later.
Personally I think that Dregoth's attempt at divine ascension (which was in the works but not released until athas.org picked it up and revised it for 3e) may have precedent in Rajaat. Rajaat was powerful enough to travel anywhere in the multiverse, including beyond the known Athas cosmology. As Dregoth discovered true gods in his travels, Rajaat must have known about them, and researched something akin to Karsus's Avatar.
Here's a thought, in lieu of the divine theory. Rajaat is at the very least a preserver 20/defiler 20/psionicist 20. He most likely (I'd wager 100% chance) has a connection to a vortex just like the SK's. He is obviously much more powerful than a 21st level Dragon of Tyr (a champion). He is probably an advanced being of unknown nature, putting him at an estimate of 70th level.
The PP was written during 2e's prime, so we have to think in 2e terms. But in 3e terms I bet you could make an epic spell to do all his stuff. The DC's would be ridiculously high (quickened, no verbal, somatic, or material components, over huge areas) but it's Rajaat here and not a PC.
That doesn't seem to be what Troy Denning was saying, it says in the Cerulean storm, something like "He tried to rectify his hideous appearance with his human spirit" it implies he was a deformed human.
Interesting theory, the idea that Rajaat could be anything other than pyreen seems to stick a bit though. I'll have to look into my old books, but when does the setting actually start to flesh Rajaat out as a story character? Is it only the 2nd setting published?
IN my own universe, Rajaat as a human or even a normal being is too simple for me. I may make a few enemies here, but RAFOK (Rise and Fall of a Sorcerer King) has become one of my favorite DS novels and is the source of inspiration for my 4E DS campaign.
In that book, Rajaat is far too grotesque and powerful a creature to be a mere human. His life span for one, even though it can be explained in some form to magic and psiionics, is far too long even for DND.
just a thought
There are some words in many languages - english, french - that are not universal but race-specific. These cause issues in fantasy or SF settings in which humans are confronted with alien races and still have to use concepts like "he still had his humanity", or "these were humanitarian concerns".
If the writter is not creative enough with his choice of words, or doesn't realise this can sometimes happen, then he'll stick to these terms even though they are nothing but language restrincts. They aren't specific choices made by the author.
Obviously I don't have the words to say what I want to say, hope someone understood what I meant.
"Your Vogonity...."
Lol