Why would someone ever choose to defile? Why is preserving pretty much just the standard arcane magic we're used to with typical D&D, and not harder or less powerful?
Basically: If defiling isn't any better, why doesn't everyone just use preserving magic, and stop messing up the planet? Am I missing something?
It's just a reroll, right? At the cost of messing up allies in the area? It just doesn't seem worth it at all.
At the same time, do not underestimate the value of getting a re-roll when you miss on that daily power that you'd been saving for the BBEG, and you botched the roll when you finally used it. At higher levels, you allies may well feel it's worth it to take that damage if it means you'll be getting that big hit on the BBEG.
EDIT: Also, read the whole paragraph, not just the power.
You can choose to defile with ANY arcane power, not just dailies. When you defile, you kill off plant life within at least 1 square of you. So you can CHOOSE to defile even on your at-wills and encounter powers.
Defiled squares might become defiled terrain (I don't have the DSCC yet, so I don't know what that means), and I would assume that there's some kind of effect there, be it difficult terrain or whatnot.
I'm hoping for maybe a DRAGON article or something that will have lists of possible benefits of defiling for some arane classes shouls they choose to defile with at-wills or encounter powers.
I hate to complain without being able to offer something better, but it just doesn't fit with how they describe it in the book. I imagined it would be something like additional damage or attack bonuses when defiling, or maybe even just penalties when not defiling. They make is seem like such an important, big deal, but it's really just a kinda useful option that can be easily ignored.
It just doesn't make any sense that THIS is what destroyed Athas: A handful of dudes who rolled poorly, and needed the re-rolls.
It's just a reroll, right? At the cost of messing up allies in the area? It just doesn't seem worth it at all.
That's the way that good characters think. But you need to remember that defiling is supposed to be evil. To evil characters that care more about victory and power than about the well-being of their allies, defiling is basically a free feature that says that they get reroll either the attack roll or damage roll of their daily powers.
Alternatively, think of it like the multiple ways that we humans are currently destroying our own environments. When you really think about it, all of the crap that we do to the world isn't really worth it, but we just don't think about it because we're so used to our luxuries. Further, you can bet that if the apocalypse came tomorrow as a result, survivors would kill each other over the remaining available gasoline...
Further, you can bet that if the apocalypse came tomorrow as a result, survivors would kill each other over the remaining available gasoline...
Totally. Dark Sun = Mad Max + Fantasy RPG
And I guess that's how evil characters think, but it doesn't seem very practical. I can't see my players taking advantage of it very readily, but as I said, I can't really come up with anything better.
Preserving is supposed to be harder to do, too, isn't it? The mechanic they used to represent all this just feels off.
The "reroll after you roll" idea is actually easier to handle (don't have to add stuff) and more of a temptation than the usual "choose before you cast if you want to do this" deal for bonuses. Think of it as getting a +1d20 bonus only when you need it, because it can be annoying to:
-use stuff to get a huge bonus just to make sure the attack hits, and you roll a 1.
-use stuff to get a huge bonus just to make sure the attack hits, and you find out after the roll you really didn't need the bonus.
And I guess that's how evil characters think, but it doesn't seem very practical.
There's quite a lot about evil that isn't very practical. ^_~
I can't see my players taking advantage of it very readily...
Good. That means that the Sorcerer-Kings and Sorcerer-Queens are bigger jerks than your players. I view that as a positive thing.
The bottom line is exactly that D&D is a cooperative game that you play with your friends, and characters are always assumed to be part of a group. That's exactly why they probably won't view defiling as being worth it. If this were not a cooperative game in which characters were always assumed to be part of a group, then this might be a different story, but the very concept of D&D encourages characters towards being good in a lot of ways.
Good. That means that the Sorcerer-Kings and Sorcerer-Queens are bigger jerks than your players. I view that as a positive thing.
Good point.
And if you take the time to invest in it, ie taking all the feats, the PP, and the ED, Defiling becomes super nasty. Reroll at-wills and encounters with an AP, damge enemies, inflict ongoing damage on enemies, make enemies count as allies when you defile, spend a healing surge when you defile, get bonus' to attack or damage rolls when you defile, etc.
And look at the stuff the masters of defiling, the S-Ks, are able to do with their defiler powers. Obviously those are NPC powers and thus not really on the same scale as player powers, but they definitely look like the kind of nastiness that could easily be responsible for scorching the world.
(Defiling was only part of what did it, of course, but it's suggested that it was a major part.)
I'm so building a flower stomping defiler templar hybrid. I'm finally motivated to try out a hybrid build!
If you are a defiler you either need to be a Templar sponsored by a Sorcerer-King and acting in within your jurisdiction or you are likely to get in real trouble and come to the attention of a Sorcerer-King pretty quickly.
A preserver can hide the fact they are an arcane spellcaster, a defiler can't. That's a huge advantage for preservers considering the setting. Especially if your DM isn't okay with an "evil" character working for an evil patron.
Still I like the option that defiling is always available as an option, bit like the Dark Side of the force in Star Wars, talking of the Dark Side, they really wimped out on the mechanics for that in the Saga edition as well.
I suspect they wanted to keep things balanced mechanically, even if the setting flavour is that defiling and preserving are unbalanced, because while defiling is meant to be something NPCs tend to do, some players will want to do it (and some DM's will let them) so if it is really significantly better than preserving then a problem will occur with balancing encounters.
The mechanics does seem backward, but think about it this way, by getting a reroll defiling is actually easier than preserving, so preserving is harder to do. Don't look at it as a do-over in the game, not "Oh crap, this spell isn't working, lucky I'm a defiler, now let's see if I can jump-start this thing the second try." At least that's the way it makes sense to me.
People also need to be reminded that there are feats, paragon paths, and epic destinies that add on to the base arcane defiling power to make it more attractive. If you actually want to play a defiler, you will take them, and your defiling will be better as a result, and you will look for opportunities to use it more often.
Arcane defiling is not something PCs are going to want to use all the time unless they have invested in being defilers, and that's a good thing. But a reroll on a missed daily, especially at a crucial stage in a fight, is something that's going to tempt players very so often. Which, IMHO, is exactly what it's supposed to do.
Now, that said, we cheat. Because we feel combat often gets LOOOOOOONG, we don't expend our powers if they miss, unless it has a miss result.
If you use a daily that has no miss stats, and you miss, its not expended.
If you use a daily that has miss stats, and you miss, you take the miss stats.
Now the flip side is, combat for us is faster, you're going to hit with that 3d10+x power sooner or later. But, I also see that defiling might just be more of a temptation on our end, as you miss on a daily and can defile to try and hit. Miss again, there is a good chance you may darn well defile again next round to get that hit. Then again, maybe this mechanic in normal D&D will backfire in DS.
This change would make defiling much more attractive.
I'm actually seriously considering making the arcane defiling power to not damage creatures. It just kills plants. Makes it more in line of 2e where it took effort to get powerful enogh to hurt creatures with your defiling.
This change would make defiling much more attractive.
Well, yeah, free rerolls to daily powers with absolutely no game mechanics drawback is pretty sweet. Of course, it makes arcane casters a lot more powerful than all the other classes, who don't get such a mechanic.
I'm personally not of the opinion that defiling *needs* to be made more attractive...players who want to play defilers will improve the base power with build options such that it *becomes* a lot more attractive. Players not interested in defiling will be tempted to use it every so often, when they flub a crucial roll. This is as it should be, IMHO.
I'm actually seriously considering making the arcane defiling power to not damage creatures. It just kills plants. Makes it more in line of 2e where it took effort to get powerful enogh to hurt creatures with your defiling.
This change would make defiling much more attractive.
Really? Because right now .... I find Defiling way more attractive than if it just killed plants. Sure your allies suffer, but so do the enemies.
I'm actually seriously considering making the arcane defiling power to not damage creatures. It just kills plants. Makes it more in line of 2e where it took effort to get powerful enogh to hurt creatures with your defiling.
This change would make defiling much more attractive.
Well, yeah, free rerolls to daily powers with absolutely no game mechanics drawback is pretty sweet. Of course, it makes arcane casters a lot more powerful than all the other classes, who don't get such a mechanic.
I'm personally not of the opinion that defiling *needs* to be made more attractive...players who want to play defilers will improve the base power with build options such that it *becomes* a lot more attractive. Players not interested in defiling will be tempted to use it every so often, when they flub a crucial roll. This is as it should be, IMHO.
Yeah it does make arcane more powerful. But then I'm OK with that given the social implications. I need to find the stuff we used for our 3.5e DS game. There were ways templars (and others but templars used it the most) could detect defilers.
That and the general social stigma is not something I plan on glossing over.
I'm actually seriously considering making the arcane defiling power to not damage creatures. It just kills plants. Makes it more in line of 2e where it took effort to get powerful enogh to hurt creatures with your defiling.
This change would make defiling much more attractive.
Really? Because right now .... I find Defiling way more attractive than if it just killed plants. Sure your allies suffer, but so do the enemies.
As per the book, arcane defiling only affect allies.
Yeah it does make arcane more powerful. But then I'm OK with that given the social implications. I need to find the stuff we used for our 3.5e DS game. There were ways templars (and others but templars used it the most) could detect defilers.
That and the general social stigma is not something I plan on glossing over.
Ugh. My experience has been that trying to balance game mechanics with roleplaying does not work well. But to each his own.
What it is going to do is make your allies very, very angry. And by 'your allies' I mean 'the people playing the other characters, sitting there at the table with you, who are now all calling you an ****.'
Which is a pretty neat secondary effect, modeling the social stigma in even the least in-character groups ever.
As per the book, arcane defiling only affect allies.
Except that the only reason you'd defile is to have the chance to harm your enemies, so defiling hurts them, too.
As per the book, arcane defiling only affect allies.
No it doesn't. As per the book, Arcane Defiling hurts enemies thanks to the reroll giving you a second chance to hit, and then the feats damage enemies directly.
Characters have the option of defiling, but it doesn't seem to really give any bonus or advatage, other than ruining some land, and maybe damaging your allies.
Why would someone ever choose to defile? Why is preserving pretty much just the standard arcane magic we're used to with typical D&D, and not harder or less powerful?
Basically: If defiling isn't any better, why doesn't everyone just use preserving magic, and stop messing up the planet? Am I missing something?
This is exactly my response to this as well. Why defile?
That's why I'm house-ruling that in addition to the mechanic already, your power basically increases in power and size. That way you get a bigger benefit. In thise case if you're using a 1st level Daily, it becomes 11th (if 11th then 21st).
You also take penalties from long term use and it becomes harder to not defile if you do it too many times.
Now there's always going to be screaming about it: "But that will unbalance the game!" But I think the issue is that at its fundamental level defiling is an unbalancing element. It just is: no way around it. And that's actually entirely the point of it! As I say in my blog post, it's the "Sexy Side of the Force", until you're taking charisma penalties and you're hunted by the Veiled Alliance and your party is giving you a wide berth just in case you "slip up" again because you can't control the preserving tendency and are getting addicted to the power rush.
but i see people here saying there is no dis advantage to perserving.
What about the fact that perservers are constantly hunted by the corcerer kings
The fact that anybody with high enough prionic or arcabe skill can tell you are faking it to make it look like psionics
makes it almost inpossible to use any of your powers inside one of the cities
or the kings guards would be al over you.
defilers on the other hand get sanctiond by the courcerer kings they can use thir powers al they like
The new one is that you can get good at defiling and then it gets to be tempting.
The sorcerer kings are definitely good at defiling. So are some of the NPC templars I am going to use.
The PC's might go that way, but it takes some effort.
Perhaps the world is already so drained that defiling is no longer so easy to do at whim. You need to know what you are doing.
Characters have the option of defiling, but it doesn't seem to really give any bonus or advatage, other than ruining some land, and maybe damaging your allies.
Why would someone ever choose to defile? Why is preserving pretty much just the standard arcane magic we're used to with typical D&D, and not harder or less powerful?
Basically: If defiling isn't any better, why doesn't everyone just use preserving magic, and stop messing up the planet? Am I missing something?
This is exactly my response to this as well. Why defile?
That's why I'm house-ruling that in addition to the mechanic already, your power basically increases in power and size. That way you get a bigger benefit. In thise case if you're using a 1st level Daily, it becomes 11th (if 11th then 21st).
You also take penalties from long term use and it becomes harder to not defile if you do it too many times.
Now there's always going to be screaming about it: "But that will unbalance the game!" But I think the issue is that at its fundamental level defiling is an unbalancing element. It just is: no way around it. And that's actually entirely the point of it! As I say in my blog post, it's the "Sexy Side of the Force", until you're taking charisma penalties and you're hunted by the Veiled Alliance and your party is giving you a wide berth just in case you "slip up" again because you can't control the preserving tendency and are getting addicted to the power rush.
What I don't understand is: where is this idea of Defiling crawling from?
Defiling in 2nd edition wasn't this powerful. Heck, it wasn't powerful at all. Skipping all the horrible details of how defiling was implemented in 2nd edition, it was simply casting spells; unless you knew how to preserve, being a normal wizard equalled to defiling. There were some inconsequentials maluses to everyone around you (-x to everybody equals to no change whatsoever) and that was that.
Where does this idea that spellcasting in Dark Sun is more powerful come from? Defiling isn't upgraded casting. It's not more powerful. It's not better. Simply put, casting arcane spells on Athas is harder, and Defiling is a shortcut, not a boost.
What I don't understand is: where is this idea of Defiling crawling from?
Defiling in 2nd edition wasn't this powerful. Heck, it wasn't powerful at all. Skipping all the horrible details of how defiling was implemented in 2nd edition, it was simply casting spells; unless you knew how to preserve, being a normal wizard equalled to defiling. There were some inconsequentials maluses to everyone around you (-x to everybody equals to no change whatsoever) and that was that.
Where does this idea that spellcasting in Dark Sun is more powerful come from? Defiling isn't upgraded casting. It's not more powerful. It's not better. Simply put, casting arcane spells on Athas is harder, and Defiling is a shortcut, not a boost.
Yeah, except there's no functional way to make it a shortcut in the new rules. What it did before was shorten your path to power. That doesn't happen now, so what's the temptation with it? Like I said, it's imbalancing.
In my games defiling is strongly discouraged, but the roleplaying aspect should be there. I've simply raised the bar on the negatives, increased temptation and made it a more active choice. I'm not sure how this goes against the feeling of the setting or is even remotely controversial.
There are some benefits to defiling if you take the feats, but I'm not sure the feats are really much better if at all than other feats you would be taking so it seems a wash to me. I don't see much of a reason to defile and not on a good-evil side of the story but just on a practical side.
yeah in 2e I think you leveled up quicker, which is a fairly big thing especially for the slow leveling mage types.
There are some benefits to defiling if you take the feats, but I'm not sure the feats are really much better if at all than other feats you would be taking so it seems a wash to me. I don't see much of a reason to defile and not on a good-evil side of the story but just on a practical side.
Yeah in the first box set for 2nd Ed, it was just faster leveling, but in the revised setting, you needed less XP and you could end up learing more spells for that day(or less if you failed a int check).
Why must defiling equate with more power? Because that is what I'm seeing with a lot of these "fixes". In the original box set defilers gained levels faster. If you want to give your defilers more power faster just increase the amount of XP they gain over everyone else in any encounter they use defiling. That should be fair, right?
However, a small number of status effects might change that considerably. Making sure you land that "stun" status on a big-bad with a nasty AOE attack could easily spare your party more than 13 hitpoints, each. Likewise, a number of debuffs that the whole party can take advantage of might start ticking the damage boost in a favorable direction. Imposing (large) penalties to defenses, or even attack values might make defiling worthwhile, but it becomes fuzzier.
Also, depending on how often your party TPKs, and whether or not your arcane caster is likely to be one of the last PCs standing... the tradeoff associated with arcane defiling improves considerably as your allies begin dropping around you. :-) On the off chance that you are the last PC standing, you're going to NEED that reroll - and at that point, there is no reason not to.
You defile because your character is someone that doesn't care about the damage to the environment that casting magic causes or possibly you are someone doing it in a dire circumstance. It is convenient and easy. The mechanic does not dictate how it is represented in the world, though. The mechanic is a concept of the game that will, hopefully, make someone think about using it. If defiling is your thing you can get progressively better at it through feats, PP and epic destinies.
Why must defiling equate with more power? Because that is what I'm seeing with a lot of these "fixes". In the original box set defilers gained levels faster. If you want to give your defilers more power faster just increase the amount of XP they gain over everyone else in any encounter they use defiling. That should be fair, right?
Defiling should equate to more power because that is what the setting dictates. The issue isn't I want MOAR POWERS, but the rules do not reflect the fluff of the setting in this regard.
You can defile constantly as a theme. The arcane defiling feature is when you go quick and dirty to make sure an attack succeeds. It's not more powerful, just more reliable. A preserver doesn't get to draw this much power because they take more time to throw their spells out. This is reflected in the Veiled Alliance theme by many of the powers requiring a standard + minor action to reach their full potential.
Preserving is supposed to be harder to do, too, isn't it? The mechanic they used to represent all this just feels off.
I hate to complain without being able to offer something better, but it just doesn't fit with how they describe it in the book. I imagined it would be something like additional damage or attack bonuses when defiling, or maybe even just penalties when not defiling. They make is seem like such an important, big deal, but it's really just a kinda useful option that can be easily ignored.
It just doesn't make any sense that THIS is what destroyed Athas: A handful of dudes who rolled poorly, and needed the re-rolls.
My personal take on the way Defiling should have worked is.
The caster casts Any Spell then it Defiles but doesn't injure comrades.
The caster Defiles harder and also Drains Allies thus empowering the spell as per the DS Defile mechanic.
The spell caster chooses to Preserve but it takes up a minor action to Preserve.
The feat Skilled preserver changes the preserve action to a free action.
This is closer to the origional system.
My personal take on the way Defiling should have worked is.
The caster casts Any Spell then it Defiles but doesn't injure comrades.
The caster Defiles harder and also Drains Allies thus empowering the spell as per the DS Defile mechanic.
The spell caster chooses to Preserve but it takes up a minor action to Preserve.
The feat Skilled preserver changes the preserve action to a free action.
Quite interesting. I like the idea that a caster has to commit something to the act of preserving because it's supposed to be harder. However, I'm leery of saying that it should consume an action to do so, because it makes some powers (those with sustain actions) almost unusable. Rather than punishing a specific class of powers (particularly a class that otherwise has no special connecion to defiling), I'd impose another cost.
Option 1
When casting any spell, the caster can, as a free action immediately before casting an arcane spell, make a Arcana check to not defile, representing her careful measurement of the best way to responsibly use the available life energy to fuel the spell. If check succeeds, proceed normally. If it fails, the spell will defile a small area (maybe just the occupied square) automatically; however, the caster can choose instead to not cast an arcane spell on this turn.
Option 2
All arcane characters gain the Defiler's Recovery power.
Defiler's Recovery
You unleash defiled energy to fuel your magic.
Encounter (Special) 
Arcane, Necrotic
Minor Action Close burst 20
Target: Allies in burst
Effect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and skill checks and grant combat advantage (save ends). You regain the use of one expended encounter power of your choice.
Special: During the short or extended rest that occurs before the encounter in which you use this power, you can choose to defile squares in a burst 20. If you do, replace the effect with following:
Effect: The target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and skill checks and grant combat advantage until the end of your next turn. You regain the use of one expended encounter power of your choice.
Defiling should equate to more power because that is what the setting dictates. The issue isn't I want MOAR POWERS, but the rules do not reflect the fluff of the setting in this regard.
I've never got the impression that it was supposed to be more powerful. Only that it was supposed to be an easier path to power in that you care not about the damage to the environment. Most mechanics, though, have equated it to more power which is why defiling is one of the few things that annoyed me in the past.
I lik it now. People can choose to be defilers and defile away and most of it is fluff. The defiling power is there for a little oomph at a cost. A cost which makes the defiler careful about using it in his group.
(1) It should not be an always superior choice, tactically.
(2) It should be constantly tempting.
(3) It should not get in the way of the general mechanics, or add another layer of complexity.
I also think that, implicitly, it's assumed that most arcane users will be preservers. Defiling is *bad*. It's an option that's rife with dramatic potential, but your heroes are not supposed to be *all* cynical defilers. (I assume this is the default stance for the setting.)
When making houserules for this, keep (3) in mind, especially. Some of the rules posted would slow down the majority of the spells. (The current arcane defiling rule only intervenes in play somewhat rarely, and I found it to be adequately enticing for a player to defile at least once. That was an awkward in-character conversation.)
I debate (1) myself, and I think it depends on the group. In some games, you can have a superior tactical option with a fictional consequence attached, and players will only go for that bonus when they've made the story choice (in this case, to defile. But some groups would take that same setup and always defile, because of the obvious bonus.
However, curses make for fine "targeted" defiling vs. enemies, which is something a lot of people seem to be looking for. Lots of curse specific feats and items are already flavored into doing something vile to the targets. If you play a warlock defiler, they give you a good roleplaying element to use. Infernal warlocks steal life force from their curse targets (Gaining temp hp when they die).
The curse deals more damage to the targets, which can be flavored as being effects of defiling.
Basically you just have to then justify what the preserver warlocks do with their curses, something that would be different from the defiling ones.
"This is a surprisingly lush area. If you defile, he'll be knocked prone." Or something like that.
It depends on the group, again, whether such a thing would be cool or lame.
lol
Put another way, better to offer a carrot than a stick. Preservers have it hard enough already.
It's just a reroll, right? At the cost of messing up allies in the area? It just doesn't seem worth it at all.
At the same time, do not underestimate the value of getting a re-roll when you miss on that daily power that you'd been saving for the BBEG, and you botched the roll when you finally used it. At higher levels, you allies may well feel it's worth it to take that damage if it means you'll be getting that big hit on the BBEG.
EDIT: Also, read the whole paragraph, not just the power.
You can choose to defile with ANY arcane power, not just dailies. When you defile, you kill off plant life within at least 1 square of you. So you can CHOOSE to defile even on your at-wills and encounter powers.
Defiled squares might become defiled terrain (I don't have the DSCC yet, so I don't know what that means), and I would assume that there's some kind of effect there, be it difficult terrain or whatnot.
I'm hoping for maybe a DRAGON article or something that will have lists of possible benefits of defiling for some arane classes shouls they choose to defile with at-wills or encounter powers.
I like defiling but i feel that it is not evil enough just with the standard rules...
So in my campaign I houserule that defiling hurts allys and enemys alike (yes it is a minion killer - but I might rule that minions get not killed but paralysed while in pain).
I Like Chiba_monkeys idea of allowing to defile all powers. Yes why not... I will try... he he