Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 naxel Aug 03, 2011 5:08:35	Rajaat is the First Sorcerer and the most powerful defiler alive (if imprisoned). As such shouldn't he have been on the road to becoming a Dragon, something which all defilers eventually become when powerful enough? I imagine the Dark Lens and access to the Pristine Tower's secrets would have made it an even easier goal for him to attain, unlike Borys or Kalid-ma. Also, why didn't Rajaat empower himself with the Pristine Tower like he empowered his Champions?
#2 DontEatRawHagis Aug 03, 2011 9:22:12	While I can't speak for any of the previous editions or backstory, maybe Rajaat surpassed the power of the Dragon and saw no point in becoming one. Maybe he didn't know about how to become a dragon. What race is Rajaat any way?
#3 Raddu76 Aug 03, 2011 9:39:13	In my Athas there never were any gods and Rajaat is the closest thing that Athas has to a god since he discovered magic.  As such, he didn't need to become a dragon, he was already beyond them.   In the Prism Pentad Rajaat killed Tec and banished Andropinis without too much trouble showing his strength.
#4 naxel Aug 03, 2011 17:29:10	What race is Rajaat any way? In 2e Rajaat was a pyreen, Dark Sun's stand-in for the "I'm better than you" race since their elves are nomadic thieves. As such, he didn't need to become a dragon, he was already beyond them. I suppose that makes some sense. I just feel like he gave away so much power to the Champions so freely
#5 phoenix_m Aug 03, 2011 21:22:06	If I remember correctly, Rajaat wasn't a Defiler - he discovered magic both preserving and defiling. He taught defiling to the champions only after he had openly taught preserving to those capable of magic use; this is why one of the early battles in the ‘Cleansing War’ was labeled the ‘Preserver Jihad’.  Also, Rajaat seemed to be more interested in the elemental powers direction, though this may have only been after his imprisonment.  Lastly, I think the Dragon Metamorphosis Spell wasn’t discovered until around the time of or even after his imprisonment by the Champions.
#6 tentagil Aug 03, 2011 21:46:42	Rajaat is a pyreen which was essentially what the ancient Halflings evolved into after they ended the Blue age.  He created the champions and sent them out to cleanse the world of all the other races that had evolved from the Pyrene since he wanted to return things to the blue age and the halfling empire since he essentially hated what he was.  His discovery of how to manipulate life force, thus resulting in Athas's magic made him incredibly powerful and in generaly he's actually more powerful then the Dragon.  And he killed off several of his champions without effort near the wars end and replaced them just as easily.  It took the combined power of all the champions to slay him and imprision his soul.  Then they helped Borys become the Dragon to keep Rajaat imprisioned.  He's essentially the gate keeper holding the prision shut, though he probably can't take on a fully powered Rajaat one on one. Really if you get into the history, as evil as the Sorc-Kings might be they are the only defense between the people and the Dragon's hunger, and the Dragon is the only defense between them and Rajaat's desire of complete genocide.  Thats what i love about Dark Sun.  its a very grey to black world with very little true good guys.  And even the evil guys have a somewhat redeeming reason why they do what they do.
#7 naxel Aug 04, 2011 6:03:31	I interpret the Preserver Jihad (something with little information anyway) as a sort of pre-war campaign where it was Rajaat and a few of his students leading small armies against simply preservers and their small armies. This differs from the Cleansing Wars not only in its smaller scale, but it's also not a raging cataclysmic event that literally mutilated the very earth which would be justified in the Rebirth races being killed off. So having discovered all arcane magic I certainly imagine him to be a defiler, and the 4e campaign guide confirms this simply by saying Rajaat is a defiler. I also imagine that if it takes the combined effort of some 13 Champions, one of which is a full-fledged Dragon, to take down Rajaat and the two loyalist Champions then certainly Rajaat must be very powerful. In my mind a very powerful defiler turns into a Dragon. My question is why didn't Rajaat become one?
#8 DontEatRawHagis Aug 04, 2011 7:18:45	In my mind a very powerful defiler turns into a Dragon. My question is why didn't Rajaat become one? I think the general concensous is that Rajaat didn't need to become a Dragon. To become a Dragon requires a very powerful ritual. If your looking for a book where it says why he didn't, I dont think there is.
#9 Kamelion Aug 04, 2011 14:19:25	I interpret the Preserver Jihad (something with little information anyway) as a sort of pre-war campaign where it was Rajaat and a few of his students leading small armies against simply preservers and their small armies. This differs from the Cleansing Wars not only in its smaller scale, but it's also not a raging cataclysmic event that literally mutilated the very earth which would be justified in the Rebirth races being killed off. This is correct, as far as canon matters.  The Preserver Jihad began in the year of King's Agitation, 134th King's Age and lasted a thousand years.  In the year of Priest's Contemplation, 144th King's Age, Rajaat empowered his preservers and the Cleansing Wars began.  (Note that Rajaat discovered magic over 4500 years before this.) So having discovered all arcane magic I certainly imagine him to be a defiler, and the 4e campaign guide confirms this simply by saying Rajaat is a defiler. I also imagine that if it takes the combined effort of some 13 Champions, one of which is a full-fledged Dragon, to take down Rajaat and the two loyalist Champions then certainly Rajaat must be very powerful. In my mind a very powerful defiler turns into a Dragon. My question is why didn't Rajaat become one? A couple of issues here.  Rajaat seems to have straddled the line between preserving and defiling as his needs dictated, but I see no problem with deciding that he comes down on the side of being a defiler in the final analysis.  Also, when the Champions overthrew him, Borys had not yet become the Dragon.  In fact, none of the sorcerer-kings had begun their metamorphosis yet.  Still, Rajaat was certainly very powerful and it took a concerted effort to overthrow him and Sacha and Wyan. It's not necessarily the case that a powerful defiler becomes a dragon, though.  If that works for you, go for it.  But generally speaking, it's a choice that has to be made, by virtue of casting the defiler metamorphosis spells (with or without the Lens and Tower, to use Farcluun, Esturren or Graytch as examples of defilers who sought dragonhood without the Lens and Tower, compared with the Champions who did use them.) You could play with the idea that becoming a powerful defiler inexorably draws you towards dragonhood, of course.  There could be something in the imbalance of repeated use of defiling energies that prompts the transformation.  Lynn Abbey developed the idea that a fledgling dragon was inexorably drawn down the path of transformation to full dragonhood, so you could extend that back into the higher levels of being a defiler.  Might be kinda cool.
#10 pavek Aug 04, 2011 14:50:54	This question, to me, is like asking why didn't/doesn't Elminster become a Lich.   I would say, in my point of view, Rajaat had surpassed the power of any current dragon many thousands of years ago.  In one of the books ( I'm pretty sure it was RaFoaDK, I know not canon, blah, blah, blah) someone (probably Hamanu) stated that Rajaat could have cleansed the planet of all the races in an afternoon but decided to play out the whole Cleansing Wars thng instead.   To a being that powerful becoming a dragon serves no purpose and as the ceator of all arcane magic he can do as he pleases.  Again, just my opinion.
#11 Kamelion Aug 04, 2011 16:15:36	This question, to me, is like asking why didn't/doesn't Elminster become a Lich.   I would say, in my point of view, Rajaat had surpassed the power of any current dragon many thousands of years ago.  In one of the books ( I'm pretty sure it was RaFoaDK, I know not canon, blah, blah, blah) someone (probably Hamanu) stated that Rajaat could have cleansed the planet of all the races in an afternoon but decided to play out the whole Cleansing Wars thng instead.   To a being that powerful becoming a dragon serves no purpose and as the ceator of all arcane magic he can do as he pleases.  Again, just my opinion. That's how I see it as well.  Rajaat discovered magic something like 8000 years before the current day.  That's an outrageous amount of time.  That's as long as humans on Earth have known about the plough.  By the time of the Cleansing Wars, his mastery of magic was as old as the pyramids are now.  Becoming a dragon is probably a piffling distraction to him.  A bauble to dangle in front of his Champions to keep them keen and distract them while he prepares his ultimate betrayal.  The issue is not so much why didn't he become a dragon, it's how remarkable it is that it took a dozen defiler/psions on the cusp of dragonhood to overcome him.
#12 DontEatRawHagis Aug 04, 2011 20:34:08	As far as 4e there is the Paragon path of Dragon King I believe(no book infront of me to check), which gives you the Dragon appearance. However a Defiler does not have to choose that path, in fact they could choose any path they want and still be as powerful as a defiler on the path to Dragon.
#13 Pennarin Aug 09, 2011 13:44:06	Careful reading of the lore shows the Jihad must have continued through part of the Cleansing Wars. Hamanu, a late comer to the Champions and the Wars, was boss to Merek the Wrong, a defiler warlord that persecuted the preservers. Also, in 2e Pyreens were their own race, but the progenitor race of all others - human, elves, etc - were the halflings. In 4e it is NOT clear whether Pyreen is something that exists as a race; we know an epic destiny allows you to become one, but there is a vague suggestion that you emulate those Pyreen you met in your life...whether these are members of a race or other PCs that reached epic.
#14 Evil_Rabbit101 Aug 11, 2011 15:34:44	I was always under the impression that Rajaat was beyond the power of the dragon and the champions. As some have pointed out, he invented magic and had a lot more time to play with it and develop it.
#15 naxel Aug 11, 2011 18:06:03	So Rajaat was just giving automatic weapons to cavemen children while he was kicking back and watching the world fall apart?
#16 Evil_Rabbit101 Aug 11, 2011 22:31:04	Rajaat was probably a beyond a Sun Wizard (what Sadira is). So he probably is a unique sort of advance being. sorry, but i have been out of playing d&d and specially dark sun, for a while. i'm just getting back into it now. what is a sun wizard?
#17 phoenix_m Aug 12, 2011 6:06:09	Basiclly, what Sadira became in the 'Amber Enchantress' novel, her magic was now powered by the sun.
#18 Evil_Rabbit101 Aug 14, 2011 16:32:26	Basiclly, what Sadira became in the 'Amber Enchantress' novel, her magic was now powered by the sun. sorry, i don't think i read that one. does she have any unique powers as a sun mage? or is just that she gets her powers from the sun that makes her special?
#19 therion666 Aug 15, 2011 16:42:26	I was always under the impression that Rajaat was beyond the power of the dragon and the champions. As some have pointed out, he invented magic and had a lot more time to play with it and develop it. In the old edition of the story, Rajaat wasn't that powerful (maybe an immortal Psionic warrior\Defiler) and the ability to become a Dragon required a dangerous ritual to be performed. In fact there's no indication that the Dragon creation ritual was available before Borys of Eb took upon the full transformation. The ritual was a combined Psionic\Defiler ritual which needed the life essence of living things to power to ritual. The other Sorcerer Kings after overthrowing Rajaat, each underwent a certain Dragon level but only Borys went all the way (until Dregoth that is), however the transformation turned Borys mad and he began ravaging the landscape and people. This rather turned the other sorcerer kings off of the dragon transformation plan. Kalak of Tyr had planned his transformation at the great games, where he was was going to trap his City States people in the gladiatorial arena and drain them of their life force to jump start the Dragon transformation to full dragon(effectively jumping about 8 or more epic levels). As it turned out the Veiled Alliance spotted what Kalak was planning and turned to the halfling 'druids' for guidance who came up with the magical Heartwood spear that cut through the sorcerer kings Magical and Psionic defences and killed the demented King. Rajaat had tasked each of his champions with exterminating a race (thus no gnomes, kobolds, orcs and goblins exist in Dark Sun) Borys of Eb was the butcher of dwarves who clearly failed. The dark sun Wiki below is very accurate to the origonal story. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Sun
#20 Evil_Rabbit101 Aug 15, 2011 20:09:59	So what is the new story? soes it differ in any significant way?
#21 maddreamer Aug 15, 2011 23:39:56	I think I read somewhere that Rajaat was that powerfull because of sun magic (draining power from the sun, the ultimate source of life) + in old canons, only human or half-elves can become dragons and Rajaat is a Pyreen. I think refluffing Rajaat as a dragon would alter too much the essence of the setting (where there is one fully transformed dragon), even if it can be arguably justified by the mechanic of 4e darksun. PS: sorry for the poor use of english, i'm french :P
#22 DontEatRawHagis Aug 16, 2011 0:14:44	So far there is no official word on Rajaat in 4e. Though there could have been some Dragon or Dungeon article that I missed. Also I just got my hands on the Dark Sun Dragon-Kings book and agree with Maddreamer. The Dragon is only possible for Elves or Humans in old Canon. Maybe in 4e its different but I think there will not be an official call unless another book/novel series starts to fiddle with the origins again.
#23 Nocturnalchemy Aug 16, 2011 0:46:21	Rajaat's true nature in 4th edition appears to have been deliberately left vague, so that different DMs could simply decide what he is in their respective campaigns.
#24 naxel Aug 16, 2011 7:24:51	As I think I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, the 4e campaign guide just says that Rajaat was a powerful defiler who sought to exterminate the [vague] races he deemed impure
#25 Dungeoneering Aug 16, 2011 13:07:30	I don't really 'get' Rajaat as a character.  Granted, I never read the Prism Pentad.  But I never understood why he wanted to destroy everybody or what he hoped to accomplish.  Where did he come from?  How did he discover magic?  None of it really makes sense to me. Fortunately the 4e campaign guide is pretty agnostic on the subject, so I'm pretty much leaving him out of my campaign entirely.
#26 khorne37 Aug 17, 2011 13:24:50	So far there is no official word on Rajaat in 4e. Though there could have been some Dragon or Dungeon article that I missed. Also I just got my hands on the Dark Sun Dragon-Kings book and agree with Maddreamer. The Dragon is only possible for Elves or Humans in old Canon. Maybe in 4e its different but I think there will not be an official call unless another book/novel series starts to fiddle with the origins again.  There will be no race limitation on becoming a dragon in 4th. In second edition there were level caps on races to make things balanced. Thus you would never see a Half Giant Dragon because they would unbalance the game. However in 4th edition the playing field has been flattened class powers have been made equal so there is no reason to put a class limit on anyone. However dragons and avagions are no longer dual classed psion/wizards they are now just arcane users. I like the blend of the psion and the magic user it is what set truly powerful beings apart from those who were a single class however getting to that point of 20/20 level before being able to advance as a dragon/avangion would take a huge campaign to accomplish.