The only one I can think of is the one Abalach-Re used to claim to worship and serve (yes, CLAIM she made the whole thing up to support herself)
The info above by others are some examples. The Green Age lore also hints that there was an abundance of gods worshiped in that Age, but none could actually provide divine power like other D&D worlds do. Thus, they were just like our Earth-based gods: tools of those in power to maintain power, and/or refuges of those who need such fulfillment to bring them solace, peace, and comfort of an afterlife.
...tools of those in power to maintain power, and/or refuges of those who need such fulfillment to bring them solace, peace, and comfort of an afterlife.
While those may hold true for societies structured in certain ways, and for very particular sets of beliefs, there's far more to the wide variety of ancient and modern Earth-based religions, both in purpose and character, than either of the above simplistic pat truisms.
For example, it completely fails to explain or categorize many animistic and pantheistic belief systems, nor systems based on philosophy (either highly ritualized or lacking ritual), etc.
While those may hold true for societies structured in certain ways, and for very particular sets of beliefs, there's far more to the wide variety of ancient and modern Earth-based religions, both in purpose and character, than either of the above simplistic pat truisms.
For example, it completely fails to explain or categorize many animistic and pantheistic belief systems, nor systems based on philosophy (either highly ritualized or lacking ritual), etc.
Yes, of course. Guh. Those aren't an entirety of the descriptions of the reason, nor was it even a remotely comprehensive list. If you'd like, I'll go ahead and write a massive list of all of the reasons why individuals and groups end up creating deities, spirits, and theological structures. I can even go into the psychological reasons, including but hardly limited to a need for structure, the addictive quality of endorphin in the brain when presented with certain stimuli, and much more. However, it would take up a vast number of pages.
Those were simply two of the most common reasons once civilizations have moved beyond simple anthropomorphism of natural phenomenon, drug-induced hallucination, sleep paralysis modified by cultural bias ranging from the most primitive to the most advanced, et al, and into more socially complex theological structures. Thus, it was a simple boiling down into the reasons for actual organized religion, which seemed to be more relevant to the question asked in the OPs initial post, especially in light of the official material's advanced temples and seemingly higher levels of polytheistic religious structure beyond mere animism and the like. Thus, the whole "short answer" lede.
And if you read the Prism Pentad there is mention of earlier religions in the ruins of Under-Tyr. So at one point there were false or other god-like beings, it was just never covered in any detail in the publish materials to date. Besides, when you have god-like effects about (i.e. Elemental Clerics) you tend not to need such things as false beliefs.
What would you (or anyone else who read this post) say? That Athas did have gods at one point, or never did? That thing about the Crimson Knights in UnderTyr and the burning candles got me. Sadira's teacher Ktandeo (sp?) said faith kept the candles burning, but was there a god or not ever that Athas had? Was Troy Denning trying to imply the god was still alive? Or that the god was dead and that faith kept the candles burning even in his absence?
You could say that those were simply elemental clerics pretending to worship a god, I think that's the route I'd go.
Given all the inconsistencies, the DM can go either way, but I like it that it never did have any gods, kind of fits the world, a desolate world in which you don't get any help from any deities kind of fits it's nature, at least in the brown age where survival is the first thing on people's minds everyday.
Short answer: it does.
The info above by others are some examples. The Green Age lore also hints that there was an abundance of gods worshiped in that Age, but none could actually provide divine power like other D&D worlds do. Thus, they were just like our Earth-based gods: tools of those in power to maintain power, and/or refuges of those who need such fulfillment to bring them solace, peace, and comfort of an afterlife.
One thing is that considering there are no true gods on Athas. Then, unlike on other worlds like Toril no one on Athas would ever receive a visit from an avatar. Though, this could make for a good story. Say some outer planar god masquerades as a false athasian one and sends his avatar to Athas. Kind of an interesting idea, just something I thought of, though I'm not sure if I like the idea at all, Athas having gods on it in any form.
They have somewhat interfered with Athas, according to Dragon Kings. Sorry, I don't know the exact page number, but it goes like this
"Jealous of the relationship between Athas and the Elemental Planes, some dark powers (gods) have fabricated living conduits that masquerade as living vorticies, so that they might further interfere in the tiny world of Athas"
So, if that is correct, then Athas DOES have gods, which I also don't like. The clerics think they are worshipping the elements when it is really a god who is granting their power through the living conduit, which I also don't like, belief and communion with the elements should only get you elemental powers, not god granted power. And, like so many other inconsistencies this contradicts it saying in City by the Silt Sea that Athas doesn't have any conduits at all, living or otherwise.
And, what exactly is a LIVING conduit/vortex? Which are basically wormholes to the inner or outer planes, what would be different about a living wormhole than a non-living one (lol could you have an undead one too?
)Isn't it true that even the inner-planes has gods. Though, they are not gods in the traditional sense. They either don't require or don't have interest in having worshippers (or both) They are called Elemental Lords mentioned in some Planescape products on the inner planes. Though, it doesn't mention that elemental clerics abilities are granted by them exactly, but the inner planes in general. There's even mention of a god who's true form resides in the Ethereal Plane.
And, what about elemental paladins? It's said in the original dark sun boxed set that Athas has no paladins not because it has no deities, but because the idea of serving right and justice for the simple reward of peace and inner faith faded from the world a long time ago. But, on a world like Athas, those things are in very short supply, so it would seem to promote paladins rather than discouraging them.
What would you (or anyone else who read this post) say? That Athas did have gods at one point, or never did? That thing about the Crimson Knights in UnderTyr and the burning candles got me. Sadira's teacher Ktandeo (sp?) said faith kept the candles burning, but was there a god or not ever that Athas had? Was Troy Denning trying to imply the god was still alive? Or that the god was dead and that faith kept the candles burning even in his absence?
You could say that those were simply elemental clerics pretending to worship a god, I think that's the route I'd go.
Given all the inconsistencies, the DM can go either way, but I like it that it never did have any gods, kind of fits the world, a desolate world in which you don't get any help from any deities kind of fits it's nature, at least in the brown age where survival is the first thing on people's minds everyday.
I always liked the concept of the Old Gods being poorly understood elemental effects for Dark Sun, but on the other hand I've long held a gaming belief of a Deity being only as strong as the faith of his worshipers.
One other theory I’ve had was: with the prevalence of psionic abilities such as clairvoyance some of those deities may actually be the Champions themselves viewed in their fully Transformed Glory. Really, there is no single right answer.
What would you (or anyone else who read this post) say? That Athas did have gods at one point, or never did?...
I would say Athas did and always has had gods. Not the gaming/system/stat kind of gods I assume you are talking about, but rather the cultural/social/belief gods of the peoples within the setting... if that makes any sense.
I always thought the temple that Tenpug's band occupies was a good example of how the setting actively promoted the notion of multiple layers of ancient (false) gods and deities worshipped on Athas. The temple was dedicated to some forgotten god worshipped by Taraskir, but then when he got b1tch-slapped, his followers started worshipping him. Cut to the age of the campaign setting full of half remembered miss truths, legends and myths – both from the peoples in the setting itself and from my players (thanks to generous seed scattering on my part) – and you have a nice big vat of fluff to stir.
Even without the sorcerer kings actively building their own mythology or my DM meddling, the world as presented is full of false gods – forgotten or otherwise. I'm not sure what would make anyone think it wasn't.
Edit: What would actually constitute as a real god on Athas in game terms?
Further Edit: Has there been a discussion on why there are no real gods on Athas? There doesn't seem to be a thread listed in the archives sticky.
I always assumed it was just a design choice to really push the idea of a world without hope or, dare I say, salvation. A world doomed to die. Maybe I'm missing something though, and there is another reason. Maybe it was just a way to cover for the cool ideas the designers had about how magic works – kind of like form following function? If it was something like this, then I guess the real question is which came first? Hmm...
A point of interest is that there is a limit on Athas to how far back in the past one may scry or time-travel. I believe it's right around the beginning of the Green Age. This wall against time-travel may indicate the time of the formation of the Grey, and thus the time at which the Gods were banished, if they ever took interest in Athas at all before that. Perhaps the forces behind the construction of the Grey wanted to make very certain nobody upon the face of Athas ever saw a real deity. I have a theory (and several forgotten quotes from planescape and Dark Sun material. ) that indicate Asmodeus as the culprit and creator of the Grey, as Athas generates the faithless in droves, and only the souls of the Faithless can repair and regenerate his true, broken body. The Grey is described as slowly dissolving souls in a manner very similar to which Asmodeus himself does. The Grey could be some sort of cosmic battery, storing the soul-energy of the faithless for later consumption in an instant by Asmodeus, for an instant return to his true form and power. All done in a place hidden and untouchable by the Gods, so they can neither know nor stop his power.
Asmodeus is older than the gods, according to 2E at least (NO fights about wich edition is "right", please). Athas could well be older than the Gods too. Which would explain why they didn't have a foothold there when Asmodeus cut the place off and hid it. I believe it was through his subtle machinations that Athas became the HELL it is today, one which constantly produces evil, faithless souls too consumed with self-preservation or gaining personal power to notice his hand. When he finally consumes the Grey and re-ascends, perhaps he will use the independently powerful Sorceror Kings as his new high-up minions, as the powers of ALL devils derive from the principles of the Pact Primeval, scribed between Asmodeus and the Gods. Basically, all lawful evil souls are consigned to Baator in the name of Asmodeus, and tortured, the very act releasing the energies that feed Devils and fuel their spells. If Asmodeus re-ascends, he will no longer be Asmodeus, he will once again be Ahriman. The Pact Primeval will be rendered null, the ability of Devils to sustain themselves will be destroyed, and they will all slowly lose their essences, and lose their powers much more quickly. Asmodeus will need a new army, and ne led by Dragon Kings and populated with Psionicists(beholden to no deity or external source for their power) and Defilers(whose magic works on ANY plane, and is not bound by the tard-ass Weave or moons of Krynn or whatever. it's stated in Planescape that Lower Planar creatures have a special afffinity for Defilers, delighting in their destructive magic, independent of any control mechanism like the Weave.
Or, if the Pact Primeval is not broken by the reversion of Asmodeus to Ahriman, he will have a new army and set of generals, free to travel the Planes if properly schooled, and with a predisposition to become slavers. The population of Athas could be weilded like a brand-new weapon against the multiverse, capturing people and dragging them back to Hell for torture and consumption. It is not so very different from capturing slaves for any other arena, in the mind of most Athasians, I think.
and many folk would consider the SorcerorKings to be gods because they obviously are! (they have unimaginable power/age, ergo gods to the ignorant masses)
in my version of Tyr, the "Kingsmen" are brown-shirt-like thugs who support Kalak...and act as informants, bully boys etc...people are attracted to power.
It is interesting that as a response to pointing out the observation you provided was an overly-simplistic and badly limited one, you compound the error.
You state you can provide numerous pages on the topic, apparently indicating some depth of study. That left me surprised at your use and repetition of various perceptual errors found in early-to-mid 1900's anthropological theory -- such as long debunked Eurocentric philosophies of societal evolution from "primitive" to "civilized" and categorizations of social artifacts of a culture (such as religion) as "simplistic" and "complex" based upon that.
By way of example, claims that modern Western monotheistic religions contain "more socially complex theological structures" than so-called "primitive" religions, that pantheistic or animistic belief structures are in any way simple or are forgotten elements of past religions that societies eventually "move beyond", that polytheistic religions--past and present--function and behave in ways similar to the monothesisms with which we are familiar today (ie: polytheistic temple faiths are faiths whose societal purpose arises from a social context of "controlling the population" or "providing succor"--especially in the form of an afterlife--and so forth), are all claims that have not held water for decades.
So your description of the beliefs and functions of "our Earth-based religions" fails to explain any very modern and widely-practiced religions that are not like Western monotheisms, or even to explain European polytheisms.
There was also your apparent ignorance of modern religions containing religious elements you have suggested are ancient relics that do not exist in "advanced" religion (which you seem to believe is defined as: organized, temple-based, polytheistic religion); examples would be, say, Jainism, forms of Buddhism, various Hindu sects, etc. And, actually, even some forms of Judaism, or Sikhism. As well as various ancient religious practices and belief structures, polytheistic and otherwise.
You confuse animism and pantheism with shamanism, and make multiple references to (and dismissal of) "mere" "primitive" animism, as though it were some monosyllabic grunt practiced only by mythical brutes in animal skins, rather than a complex and internally varied element of various theologies that also happen to be an integral part of a number of vibrant modern religions.
Which is why I found your response to the OP's question short-sighted, as it provided an unrealistic answer to the question, coming from a very limited position that only works within particular cultural and religious frameworks that are not the end-all of "actual" organized religion.
Especially because that answer supported the unfortunate typical gamer-think (and hoary D&Dism) that polytheistic religions are just like Christianity/Islam/Judaism, but with more gods, each of whom acts like and are presented more-or-less like the Judeo-Christian God in a funny hat, and have priests who more-or-less act, think, and believe like medieval Catholic churchmen, complete with a social structure and set of beliefs inherent to the Dark Ages of Europe.
A truly serious answer to the question, one that would contribute to a richer view of Athas by providing fodder material for modeling (so-called) false religions--or rather, religious practice for which practitioners do not receive divine spells, or whose gods do not actually exist--would utilize the criteria by which religion arises in actual societies.
I would have thus expected an answer that did not rely on simplistic notions and just-so stories born of singular, limited experience or that pushed a particular worldview about a highly diverse and complex set of sociological practices. And thus my pointing out the failure of that small set you provided to explain or encompass the diversity of practice and philosophy of various religions in the real world.
Especially in looking at Athas, and its unique cosmological position, an organized, temple-based animistic or pantheistic religion would seem a very good fit, both in Athas' ancient days and perhaps even moreso in its modern days, as would various nontheistic religions*.
*We are unaware, for example, whether or not the god in the temple of Under-Tyr was a "god" of the sort we expect as D&D players -- some pseudo-polytheistic Yahweh-in-all-but-name deity -- or something more along the lines of the position of the Buddha in Buddhism, who can be classified as a deity in a religious structure, though not one Westerners would generally recognize as such.
As such, I would think the number of false religions on Athas would be as varied and complex as modern religious beliefs--including religions which include animism or pantheism (real, not the entirely illusory "primitive" "simple" "unorganized" version you are espousing), especially given Druidism and the nature of the elemental priesthoods on Athas, as well as nontheistic and philosophical religions, given the philosophies taught by the Way. It would also be particularly easy to derive local polytheistic pantheons from various elemental beings (ones who simply don't care about the faith built around them), or even desert monsters and beasts, for various reasons (mistaken or otherwise).
If anyone can find it, there was a post on the mailing list a long time back where, as I recall, I outlined those ideas better and took a stab a basic outline of modern Athasian belief structures.
What would you (or anyone else who read this post) say? That Athas did have gods at one point, or never did? That thing about the Crimson Knights in UnderTyr and the burning candles got me. Sadira's teacher Ktandeo (sp?) said faith kept the candles burning, but was there a god or not ever that Athas had? Was Troy Denning trying to imply the god was still alive? Or that the god was dead and that faith kept the candles burning even in his absence?
Faith is the great underrated power source of Dark Sun, if you look at it closer.
When you die, and your want to live is so strong, you become an undead. There is no god of death that does this, nor is it apparently a characteristic of the Gray. You just rise as an undead.
When you believe enough in a false god then you rise into a raaig upon your death and - surprise - acquire abilties as if your divine prayers for temporal powers were answered.
The candles in the Under-Tyr temple are not powered by any regular person's faith...but by the faith of undead supplicants. Keeping the candles lighted is the same and as easy for them as a priest gaining powers upon becoming a raaig. Somehow the candles become part of the undead's self, and probably other things in the temple become a part of them too. The temple and its candles were so important to these supplicants that, upon their death, they became part of the whole undead thing that affected them.
I know nothing of religion, so nice of you to point out that polytheism is not "God" x 10, but something we of the Western world have not experienced in quite a bit.
Could you, if you feel like it, elaborate on the real differences between polytheistic religions and D&D's crapo-astic interpretation of it?
- the Grey could be the very belly of Asmodeus. Perhps the very reason the Grey is so hard to pierce is because everyone assumes that it is a local variation of the Astral or Ethereal, when in fact, it is located in the very bottom of Baator!
So, it's Asmodeus's bungholio? :D
Well a lot of folk have suggested Athas is the dry, nasty butthole of Existance, now we have proof!! :p
Expanding on my earlier post, there is material in a Guide to Hell that describes the fate of the faithless, and how Ahriman(Asmodeus) consumes them. It almost exactly matches descriptions of the Grey, which led me to an unsettling thought - the Grey could be the very belly of Asmodeus. Perhps the very reason the Grey is so hard to pierce is because everyone assumes that it is a local variation of the Astral or Ethereal, when in fact, it is located in the very bottom of Baator!
I suppose you could go this way as a Dark Sun DM if you want. I don't like it personally. I always thought/theorizes that the Grey was the effect/an effect of Athas being a closed sphere. Of course, it's not completely closed, as the mists of Ravenloft (as domains of dread says at least, though Psionic Artifacts of Athas contradicts it) can reach it, and it IS possible (though difficult) to transfer to the other two adjacent planes, the ethereal and astral.
Keep in mind that the Grey really didn't come in play officially until the Preservers and Defilers book, it was mentioned in the Pentad, but you'll notice (as you probably already know) that lots of DS products make reference to other planes, such as Dragon Kings in which parts of the Dragon and Avangion Metamorphosis's must take place on other planes, it makes no mention of the Grey at all.
And, where is this stuff about Asmodeus creating the Grey? You said you can't recall the exact quotes, but can you recall the Planescape books those quotes are in at least? All I've read about him is that (in the Book of Vile Darkness) is he rules the 9th level of Baator but isn't a deity, or predates all deities.
There was also an old 1st edition Dragon Magazine article called Politics of Hell in which there was a Lucifer Morningstar (the Devil, yes despite people saying D&D contains no satanic references) he had unlimited wishes which could only be overridden by the almighty, but someone told me nothing in Dragon is official.
Faith is the great underrated power source of Dark Sun, if you look at it closer.
When you die, and your want to live is so strong, you become an undead. There is no god of death that does this, nor is it apparently a characteristic of the Gray. You just rise as an undead.
It depends really. Dwarves who don't complete their focus became dwarven banshee's (who can only be destroyed by Borys's spirit lords, or the essence of Rajaat- that black ooze stuff)
People who have suffered great wrongs, or horrible deaths, or both rise as vengers (or revenants, which are basically the same thing)
Pretty much everyone else goes to the Grey, however- Thri Kreen of Athas says that the Thri Kreen have a heaven in the Happy Hunting Grounds (Beastlands) and a cold hell in Baator (Stygia) I suspect whoever wrote that forgot about the Gray completely, most likely. Or less likely, the Thri Kreen can somehow get through the Grey with the power of their belief.
And, also there is something that says Hamanu (spoiler- Rise and Fall of a Dragon King) goes to this other place after he has spent 1000 years in the stone, though Kevin Melka said that book was pretty much non-canon and Lynn Abbey really screwed up.
I also want to point out that the power of faith is responsible for the rise or sustenance of many Athasian undead, like those specter-knights in the Verdant Passage, with their candles that burned on faith. many types of Athasian undead come to be specifically because of belief or conviction. Dwarves become Banshees when they die with an unfulfilled focus. Maybe their belief in the need to fulfill a focus is enough of a faith or belief that Asmodeus cannot consume their souls, and so the Grey rejects them(Ahriman vomits them out) until they fulfill their focus, and are relieved of their burden of faith, making them ripe for consumption.
My take on it,
In the Green Age, there were (false) gods and (false) belief systems based on them. Probably a lot, just like here on Earth. Given the vast powers and spread of psionics its easy to imagine religions based on the origin and application of psionic power. The elements and spirits of the land granted power as well, though that was probably held in lesser regard during a civilized age dominated by psionics.
During the Cleansing Wars religion was perverted into a powerful recruiting tool and source of endless crusades. Only elven hearts will allow the sun to rise! See the power of these Champions, truest servants of the gods! The path to heaven is paved with corpses of the hated orcs!
In the age of Sorcerer Kings, the 'State religion', a thousand years of tradition and the obvious powers they grant enforce worship of the local King. Within the cities all false religions are demoted to cult status and doomed to eventual extermination.
The Kings have little reach. Just beyond their city walls its a religious free-for-all. Elemental worship mixes with false prophets and madmen of the wastes. Nomadic elven tribes may have a patron deity passed down for generations. Dwarven clans may worship a pantheon of heroic ancestor spirits. Free slaves may worship a glowing rock they found in the desert. Anything goes because no one knows.
As for the real gods, the ones in the Astral, we can assume the following:
1) They know about Athas. The Grey isnt a perfect barrier for the non-divine and people do on occasion leave Athas. Some of them will interact with divine followers, and have been doing so since the first planar traveler left the world. For thousands of years and through many Ages the gods have known of Athas and sought to gain their worship. Which means...
2) They cant get here from the Astral. Not as an avatar, not by sending divine power, none of it works; they are completely cut off. Any divine worshiper they send here is stranded without divine powers. In the Green Age they may have even started a full-blown Church of Pelor or Vecna, though prayers went unanswered. In the current Age any wayward and powerless worshiper is soon killed or enslaved, ranting to anyone who will listen about the god that has forsaken him. Curious gods may investigate by sending a powerful mage or psion, someone able to operate without divine aid. They would soon discover the truth and report back: theres nothing to gain here, move along.
Or Athas has a god like AO of the Realms, an impartial and uncaring ubergod who prevents others from accessing 'his' sphere.
I prefer the simple approach: it just doesnt work, never has and never will. If Dregoth really wants to be a god he has to transport himself and all worshipers to some other world and try again. Being immortal already, thats not such a hard goal, though success would forever deny his return to Athas.
Curious gods may investigate by sending a powerful mage or psion, someone able to operate without divine aid. They would soon discover the truth and report back: theres nothing to gain here, move along.
An offworld mage would arrive powerless,with a bunch of flashy but useless trinkets. The wealth he'd bring(Gold is like iridium on Athas)would protect him maybe for a while, get him schooled in the local arcana if he's REALLY lucky. Most likely, any offworld mage would quickly get killed.
Very few deities would think to send a psionicist as their agent, so only those crafty few would have any hope of finding out the truth and reporting the deific uselesness of Athas.
An offworld mage would arrive powerless,with a bunch of flashy but useless trinkets. The wealth he'd bring(Gold is like iridium on Athas)would protect him maybe for a while, get him schooled in the local arcana if he's REALLY lucky. Most likely, any offworld mage would quickly get killed.
Very few deities would think to send a psionicist as their agent, so only those crafty few would have any hope of finding out the truth and reporting the deific uselesness of Athas.
Actually there is the divine agent prestige class in Psionics handbook.
And, actually, isn't there more than one reference to Athas in Planescape Products. One that Baatorians admire that defilers fuel their destruction with destruction, and a faction in Sigil (which brings up something else, is there a portal to Athas in Sigil? Or would the Grey block such a thing?) which admires the champions of Rajaat in destroying the Chaotic races of Athas.
What's cool is Athas could be a refuge to you if a god is angry with you. You could give him the bird safely behind the Grey.
And on the other hand, a preserver of defiler would be MUCH more powerful on a world with lush greenery. Our DM ruled as a preserver I could memorize an extra spell. And just imagine the havoc a high level psion could do on a world like Krynn, totally devoid of psionics, they'd have absolutely no defense under 2E rules, there was no psionics are different rule, they were different without saying.
Or Athas has a god like AO of the Realms, an impartial and uncaring ubergod who prevents others from accessing 'his' sphere.
Actually, isn't there mention of a Guardian of Athas, by Pavek? Though what it guards against isn't clear. Clearly not ecological destruction, it stood idly by during the Cleansing Wars, but say if someone wanted to destroy Athas itself.......maybe.
There are inner planar gods called the elemental Lords (not sure how many there are) but they don't care about gaining or even having worshipers.
I guess it would be kind of hard for most Powers to not notice Athas. Since there's Athasians in Sigil, chances are they have had some interaction with a church, though it's stated that they don't generally like the idea of Gods. Since all Athasians have psychic potential but most don't develop it, their psychic nature would not be readily apparent, not leaving much of a clue as to what types of powers will still function on Athas.
Anyhow I think it goes somehting like this.
The Grand High Poobah goes out to convert the masses to his new religion, and he is the mouth of God/gods. A potential red headed convert comes along and he goes into his spiel about fire, brimstones and the eternal amount of jellybeans you will get in the afterlife if you convert to his religion and make a donation which he can forward onto his High Holy Poobah as he is only the Grand High Poobah and is outranked. Red headed man mutters something and Flamestrike ends the conversation rather quickly.
Lastard
Faith is the great underrated power source of Dark Sun, if you look at it closer.
When you die, and your want to live is so strong, you become an undead. There is no god of death that does this, nor is it apparently a characteristic of the Gray. You just rise as an undead.
When you believe enough in a false god then you rise into a raaig upon your death and - surprise - acquire abilties as if your divine prayers for temporal powers were answered.
The candles in the Under-Tyr temple are not powered by any regular person's faith...but by the faith of undead supplicants. Keeping the candles lighted is the same and as easy for them as a priest gaining powers upon becoming a raaig. Somehow the candles become part of the undead's self, and probably other things in the temple become a part of them too. The temple and its candles were so important to these supplicants that, upon their death, they became part of the whole undead thing that affected them.
I guess when one doesn't have some parasitic "Power" feeding on their soul their whole life, there must be some kind of untapped reservoir of "faith energies" that would be unused and available. I think the Grey is largely composed of dissolute soul energy.
Faith and belief do seem to have the power to overcome death, after a fashion, on Athas. In a land with no gods, it seems to be up to the strong of mind to determine if they will dissolve and ultimately perish in the Grey, or if they truly believe in something greater than themself, they can reject the Grey's grip and remain on Athas. (Makes me contiinue to ruminate on the
myriad of connections between Ahriman and the Grey).
That was a great...rant, greyorm. Incredibly, despite it's lenght, I read it all. Could you, if you feel like it, elaborate on the real differences between polytheistic religions and D&D's crapo-astic interpretation of it?
I tried to make it as non-ranty as possible and thread-relevant. Cool that you read it through. I can probably give a short summary, though one could fill a book with details (and people have!).
Part of the problem is that there is no such thing as "polytheistic religion"--that is, "polytheistic religion" as a thing of a type. Many mythologies contain polytheism or rather polytheistic elements--ie: include more than one deity--but differ significantly from one another in other ways and are not as interchangeable as just swapping around deity names and leaving everything else be.
Some quick differences that hold true for various polytheisms or don't. Some of the quite different polytheisms are the ancient Middle Eastern and Egyptian ones:
Gods don't fight for worshipers, instead gods are tool-boxy: you pray to the god thought to have influence over the thing you're praying about.
Temples are often to multiple deities. Priests serve a pantheon, not a deity. Though in some cultures, priests would worship or serve a particular patron deity, particularly if the deity was their city's or clan's patron. This would still not be the "top god", however, unless it was the "top god" that is.
Worshipers don't hear sermons and priests don't run about preaching the holy word. Priests don't generally counsel the common people or perform Sunday-service-like rites or confessionals or carry around the Big Book of My God's Moral Commandments.
Oftentimes, priests are utterly unconcerned with the spiritual state of the common person, and their duties are to perform rituals that keep the universe operating correctly, remind the gods of their duties or placate/honor them.
Priests acted as a record-keepers, mathematicians, law-keepers, and/or political counselors whose knowledge of universal law can help the ruler make wise decisions.
Holy books/stories may not be about morality or rightness or entering the afterlife. They may instead be stories about why things are the way they are and how the gods do it all, how the universe is shaped and what it is made of, how to commune with and influence the gods, etc.
But depending on the culture and the religion, some of those are different. A better place to start would be the Wikipedia entry on polytheism. There's also an interesting bit here explaining a bit about Hinduism and contrasting it with monotheism.
Yes, of course. Guh. Those aren't an entirety of the descriptions of the reason, nor was it even a remotely comprehensive list. If you'd like, I'll go ahead and write a massive list of all of the reasons why individuals and groups end up creating deities, spirits, and theological structures. I can even go into the psychological reasons, including but hardly limited to a need for structure, the addictive quality of endorphin in the brain when presented with certain stimuli, and much more. However, it would take up a vast number of pages.
Those were simply two of the most common reasons once civilizations have moved beyond simple anthropomorphism of natural phenomenon, drug-induced hallucination, sleep paralysis modified by cultural bias ranging from the most primitive to the most advanced, et al, and into more socially complex theological structures. Thus, it was a simple boiling down into the reasons for actual organized religion, which seemed to be more relevant to the question asked in the OPs initial post, especially in light of the official material's advanced temples and seemingly higher levels of polytheistic religious structure beyond mere animism and the like. Thus, the whole "short answer" lede.
Wow. Even as a religious person, that is one of the best responses to something on these forums I've ever seen.
I salute you, sir.
What would you (or anyone else who read this post) say? That Athas did have gods at one point, or never did? That thing about the Crimson Knights in UnderTyr and the burning candles got me. Sadira's teacher Ktandeo (sp?) said faith kept the candles burning, but was there a god or not ever that Athas had? Was Troy Denning trying to imply the god was still alive? Or that the god was dead and that faith kept the candles burning even in his absence?
You could say that those were simply elemental clerics pretending to worship a god, I think that's the route I'd go.
Given all the inconsistencies, the DM can go either way, but I like it that it never did have any gods, kind of fits the world, a desolate world in which you don't get any help from any deities kind of fits it's nature, at least in the brown age where survival is the first thing on people's minds everyday.
For some reason, your post makes me want to run a DS campaign. Normal, no gods, etc. Then, when the players have gotten attached and used to their characters and the setting, introduce a god. Perhaps outcast from another world.
hmmm in a setting that dark, with powerful beings that are into killing "false prophits" and the like...could be interesting. and a new way to mess with my players' heads. :P
I was looking at the Monster Compndium II when me and my pals were playing other week, Raaigs, iirc??...spirits of people who worshiped the now forgotten and dead gods of ancient times...
(I'll go dig it up again if need for exact details)
so, Athas DID have gods once upon a time ;)
In the green age there were gods, real ones that would come down and do godly things, grant spells, and had exarchs and avatars and everything else. For reasons unknown, they left and turned their backs on Athas. Maybe they had to, maybe they saw what the future held and moved on, maybe they just got bored and things would've been fine otherwise; who knows. The grey formed not long after that. Some say the gods placed it to protect Athas, others say they did it to shut Athas off from other places, still others say that the grey was a side effect of no deific hand to care for and guide the souls to a resting place. But none of that matters.
The gods are gone, they aren't coming back, and there would be no welcome if they did. Athasian's will live a hard life and die in the end, and when they do there will be no glorious or hellish afterlife.
Earth, Air, Wind and Fire mentions the Old Gods and the madmen that worship false gods on page 7
Why does this give me the feeling it could make for some very interesting Star Pact warlocks who believe (incorrectly?) that they've made a pact with one of those Old Gods?
Oh back on the original topic
I was looking at the Monster Compndium II when me and my pals were playing other week, Raaigs, iirc??...spirits of people who worshiped the now forgotten and dead gods of ancient times...
(I'll go dig it up again if need for exact details)
so, Athas DID have gods once upon a time ;)
This was one of those things that was regularly beaten to death on the old mailing lists.
Suffice it to say that the DSMC2 was not exactly well edited, and shouldn't be taken as proof of anything, especially when it runs counter to the statements and intentions of rest of the product line.
Wow this topic was one of the most interesting things i have read in quite some time. As for the hellish after life athas is already a very desicated hell. And as faith goes faith in one's self is the most a mere mortal without psionics could hope for. I mean what a bleak world no gods except the dragon kings no redemption save some narrow escape through psionic means and scrounging around in the dust trying with all your will just to find something meager to eat and much less to drink . Your blood is worth more than your life and the sand elves will ensure that won't last very long. A year is a long wait but i'm definitely hyped about this one...... Elder gods, elemetal gods, but no known gods these poor souls are destined to feed the never ending hunger of chaos and to have their bleached bones lie forever in the scorching winds of ATHAS!!!