Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 apoxon Jun 22, 2010 22:55:35	I know, I know -- because Neeva and Agis and My-Name-Is-Gladiator killed him. I mean, though, why do you think Wizards decided to set their "snapshot in time" for the setting following his assassination, rather than before? If they were going to ignore the latter 80% of the Pentad, why not the first 20% as well? Was it just so that the heroes could have a home city free of an SK's influence? Or as proof that the SKs are mortal, thus providing motivation for toppling another? Is the setting improved by Tyr's freedom, or watered down by it? Personally, I've always felt that Kalak was one of the more interesting sorceror-kings from the original setting.  He had more of a Merlin-gone-bad vibe than any of the others that I always liked. Any opinions on why the setting is better this way?
#2 Duke5150 Jun 22, 2010 23:13:05	I mean, though, why do you think Wizards decided to set their "snapshot in time" for the setting following his assassination, rather than before? Kalak is designed to be the settings ultimate redshirt. He's suppose to die. He's a plot device. Was it just so that the heroes could have a home city free of an SK's influence? That's a valid reason. Or as proof that the SKs are mortal, thus providing motivation for toppling another? That's another valid reason. Is the setting improved by Tyr's freedom, or watered down by it? Improved. It addsdifferent adventuring elements to tyr than other city-states. There is no super powered arch villain capable of appearing out of no where to stomp your guts out for killing a bunch of templars or whatever. Personally, I've always felt that Kalak was one of the more interesting sorceror-kings from the original setting.  He had more of a Merlin-gone-bad vibe than any of the others that I always liked. Nothing wrong with designing adventures that take place before kalak's death. I might do something like that. Any opinions on why the setting is better this way? Variety. Not every city-state is ruled by a godking who can appear and TPK the entire party at the whim of the DM. Fluff wise, it adds depth to the story (IMO). The senate is struggling, Tithian isn't king yet and the future isn't written. Maybe a player will become the next king of tyr as an epic destiny. Maybe wotc will release an epic destiny (King of Tyr) or something. Gotta wait and see to know what the setting offers before we can honestly know.
#3 Duke5150 Jun 22, 2010 23:24:05	Just an FYI, the queen of Raam was killed by Sadira.
#4 apoxon Jun 22, 2010 23:32:53	But we need to know more before judging.  I don't mean to pass judgement, I'm just curious behind the decision as to why to choose that particular time in Athas' history, and was wondering if anyone had any ideas as to what made it the pivotal moment. So far, I think you've hit on something -- it's the moment the Rebirth races seized the reins of destiny for themselves.
#5 Pennarin Jun 22, 2010 23:55:29	@Apoxon: Athas is described as a static world where few changes happen. There is equilibrium between environment and people, Dragon and Sorcerer-Kings, defilers and preservers, desert and forest. Plunging one city into chaos ensures the rest of the region stays the same yet takes action. Kings and armies move to take advantage of opportunity, and so do raider tribes; the Tyr Veiled Alliance is strengthened, and defilers seek to seize opportunities for great power; ancient evils wake, new ones arise; the levy falters, the Dragon notices. A powers vacuum, with no single person powerful enough to wrestle control and fill it, is a great agency to precipitate overt action and hidden plotting from all corners of the region.  Kalak's death is also one event already mentioned in 2nd Edition Dark Sun, so why not reuse it if it can accomplish all this?
#6 Nyarlathotep Jun 23, 2010 0:23:25	It's been a looooooooong time, so I may be off base, but didn't the original boxed set start out with Tyr being a 'free city' and Kalak being freshly killed?
#7 Pennarin Jun 23, 2010 0:47:23	It did not. That came during the first adventure, Freedom, and the first novel, The Verdant Passage. From the entry on Tyr, in the (original) Campaign Setting Boxed Set: Tyr is ruled by the sorcerer-king Kalak, who calls himself simply King Kalak or, as he sometimes prefers to be addressed, the Tyrant of Tyr. A pragmatic and ruthless man, Kalak is perhaps the most honest of all sorcerer-kings. He rules by the might of his magic and tremendous psionic powers, placing his own security and the stability of Tyr above all other considerations. [...]
#8 nimblegrund Jun 23, 2010 0:52:16	Death of Kalak is a very interesting event for Athas because it means that after countless thousands of years of Sorcerer King rule, a Sorcerer King has been assassinated.  For the people of Athas, this is unthinkable... impossible even, but there it is. It presents a fascinating base of operations for Player Characters.  It is a place where they can be free of the SK's tyranny, where slaves are free, where they can actually make a difference.  It represents hope for a world that has been dying of thirst for it.  It also represents for a DM a place where countless adventure hooks can be plucked with ease.  The world is closing in on Tyr, and it is going to need these newfangled things called heroes, if it is going to survive. It is honestly the most interesting time to run a Dark Sun game in, and the fact that they chose that time period for the game makes me ecstatically happy.
#9 prickly Jun 23, 2010 5:10:30	In the original 91 boxed set, Kalak is described as ruining trade in Tyr and annoying the nobles and merchants. It is hinted that a attempt at rebellion  is immanent. Then they released the freedom module where it happens. Now while that idea would make an awesome game, as a default starting time its not that good of an idea. I think the new approach, setting the default to just after the rebellion, is much better as it gives the option for a lot of really good adventures of different flavours in Tyr itself and for the other reasons mentioned above. An Aside , The Dark Sun game I'm starting soon will deal with Kalaks death. My players don't know much about the setting, so I'm hoping to shock the pants off them.
#10 Bly2729 Jun 23, 2010 8:16:04	Starting briefly after Kalak's death places the PCs at the most appropriate point when a band of intrepid heroes might band together.  One of the earlier Dark Sun editions I think put its start point decades after Kalak's death.  Aside from putting out some new threats its arbitrary.  His death is marks the beginning of the end for the Sorcerer Kings and your character can begin to question their background and upbringing in a culture that stagnated for centuries under the SKs. For comparison, why does Eberron start a couple years after the Treaty?  Immediately after wouldn't allow a good explanation for parties made up of different nationalities and demobilization would be intense.  A couple of years gives PCs time to get settled after the Last War but not too much time to find a new non-adventuring job.
#11 silverbullet5774 Jun 23, 2010 9:23:26	I mostly feel they set the starting point to this particular time because it can be used as a tool for DMs to drive the story and for players to have a "relatively" safe city. My PCs will be starting their campaign July 3rd, in the city of the shadow king, Nibenay.
#12 turlough Jun 23, 2010 10:38:06	IIRC, and I don't have a source for this, Denning said that they had always intended to have Kalak be dead and if he could do it over, would have started with it this way.  I'm not arguing there are lots of ideas in the original boxed set.  But, at least for me, today's game designers need to start with something that has the conflict already present.  In a setting where nothing has changed and there is no reason to think it will change for thousands of years, they are missing something.  Setting it right after an "unkillable" SK is killed means this is the interesting time in Dark Sun!  I don't know Eberron very well but it's my understanding that the time in which it's set is like right after WWI.  The conflict is technically over but there are a lot of things brewing.  FR is weird.  There are sources of conflict, going back to the grey boxed set, but there is nothing "simmering" close to the surface.  I like that and am hoping to see that in the new Dark Sun, as well as updated information to 4E, which I also like.  turlough
#13 greyorm Jun 23, 2010 12:12:47	But, at least for me, today's game designers need to start with something that has the conflict already present.  In a setting where nothing has changed and there is no reason to think it will change for thousands of years, they are missing something. Alternately, it is a bad idea because the heroes should be the force for the change, the things that cause the stagnant state to end. Which is how it works in much heroic fiction. With something or someone else causing changes, the PCs can too easily become reactive rather than proactive, merely responding to events rather than being their cause.
#14 Duke5150 Jun 23, 2010 12:20:04	But, at least for me, today's game designers need to start with something that has the conflict already present.  In a setting where nothing has changed and there is no reason to think it will change for thousands of years, they are missing something. Alternately, it is a bad idea because the heroes should be the force for the change, the things that cause the stagnant state to end. Which is how it works in much heroic fiction. With something or someone else causing changes, the PCs can too easily become reactive rather than proactive, merely responding to events rather than being their cause. Yup, one thing that bothered me about the old freedom module. "lets follow this powerful npc and leech xp and treasure while not doing a damn thing! WOOHOO!"
#15 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 23, 2010 12:52:51	In a way I agree with Greyom. When we played will all SKs alive, cities were a frightful place. I think new players won't know what it felt like to live in a hopeless world. I never, ever run Tyr as a city with much hope. The power vacuum is pretty immense. Kalak may have annoyed and irritated people to no end, but there was stability there. Now there is a fledgling government, fear of being invaded from the outside, lack of resources, a whole new bunch of people that need to be employed (all of the slaves), and not enough money to go around. Basically, it is a city-state that is bankrupt, and the poor Veiled Alliance and city council are sitting in the middle of their failed attempt at freedom, with no easy way to restore "normality" to the place. Think of a place with over 50% of the population basically homeless and jobless, and you might get an idea of Tyr. There is a lot of civil unrest in the undercurrent of the city-state, and a great many new and insurmountable troubles it has to deal with. At least all Kalak wanted to do was kill everyone, it would have been fast and efficient, with no further suffering. Now the people get to suffer.
#16 cnahumck Jun 23, 2010 13:18:42	I have to say that I agree with this, though I would say that the numbers go well over 50%.  Probably about 75%, due to the lack of stability; especially only a few weeks after the fall of Kalak.  4e Tyr might be different, with the power of the templars still entact (magically if not politically, something not in place before).  However, Tyr is actually one of the worst places to be, because it is so uncertain. Other cities would be both safer to be in, and much more stable.  One things I have never really understood is why there is this assumption that PCs need to make the who region like Tyr, free of those evil SK's.  What about working with or for those evil SKs.  Yes, they are evil, but in a world like Athas, making sure your evil boss is victorious might be a good thing.  Many of the SKs seem to value stability and life in ways that are subtle and rarely nuanced here on the boards.  Kalak, I think, is an exception.  Don't get me wrong, any of the SKs would slaughter their whole city out of self preservation.  However, that is a rare case, and not likely to happen. Other ways to do the campaign: Help Nibenay uncover ways to correct the past.  He spends much of his time contempating that, and looking into ways to avoid a draconic rampage as he advances.  Helping him find ways to become a full dragon without destroying anything else could be an interesting campaign. Help Hamanu take Tyr and control the Iron Mines. Help the Oba expand the forest. Working with the merchant houses and get involved with a trade war. Noble house conflicts within a city state. Keep the peace in Raam. Reopen trade and interaction with the Lost Cities of the North for Draj. Start, lead, help, or build up a slave or elf tribe or independant village so that it is a major force outside of the city states. The PCs are heroes.  But that doesn't mean that they need to be heroes for good.  They can be heroes for a city state, or a merchant house.  They can be the champions of a SK, or the Order.  Hero cannot be understood outside of the context within which the hero lives.
#17 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 23, 2010 13:31:15	The PCs are heroes.  But that doesn't mean that they need to be heroes for good.  They can be heroes for a city state, or a merchant house.  They can be the champions of a SK, or the Order.  Hero cannot be understood outside of the context within which the hero lives. Agreed. I've always wanted to run a campaign where the group were all loyal to a particular SK. Like a group from Urik who are loyal to Hamanu, King of the World, and go out to fight for Urik by defeating other pretenders (read: other SK's) that try and attack their people. This group could even be seen as a group of heroes in the eyes of the Urikites, but as quite vile and dangerous to other city-states' residents. They don't all have to be Templars, just people who believe in what the SK is doing (or has told everyone he/she is doing).
#18 Nyarlathotep Jun 23, 2010 19:06:44	The PCs are heroes.  But that doesn't mean that they need to be heroes for good.  They can be heroes for a city state, or a merchant house.  They can be the champions of a SK, or the Order.  Hero cannot be understood outside of the context within which the hero lives. Agreed. I've always wanted to run a campaign where the group were all loyal to a particular SK. Like a group from Urik who are loyal to Hamanu, King of the World, and go out to fight for Urik by defeating other pretenders (read: other SK's) that try and attack their people. This group could even be seen as a group of heroes in the eyes of the Urikites, but as quite vile and dangerous to other city-states' residents. They don't all have to be Templars, just people who believe in what the SK is doing (or has told everyone he/she is doing). Oooooh, I like that idea.  Especially the 'heroes to their home city, villains to the rest' part.  If I were running it, they wouldn't have to be templars as you say, but I think the whole idea might be the brainchild of an ambitious templar and he would be the guy they answer to (rather than the king, at least at the heroic and maybe paragon tier) and he would have assembled the team and gives them assignements. Don't mind if I thieve your idea do you? This just might be my campaign.
#19 Tyranthraxus Jun 23, 2010 23:39:27	i much prefer there being a SKing Free city. It helps with not only picking the 'Templar theme' being an ex templar because of someones death, but also creates a lot of story opportunities (already shown in the Dark Sun podcast). Will there be a new Sorc King? Im sure there are quite a few people wanting that power (Has Tithian been mentioned at all yet in this discussion.. the amount of quoting going on has made it difficult to read new thoughts on this). The fact that outside sources are moving to Tyr to get a piece for themselves is great, however not so good for Tyr is that other Sorc Kings now have a better shot at taking Tyr. In all, Kalak's death has created a plot bonanza.
#20 Pennarin Jun 24, 2010 0:12:40	Those having read The Crimson Legion know that Hamanu sends an army to march on Tyr to restore the flow of iron, crucial to the extraction of the obsidian that forms the backbone of Urik's economy. This army is eventually defeated through exceptional circumstances, but now that the novel is one possible alternative on how things go down an alternative might be victory and domination under Urikite regency. Plenty of story potential there. The other Sorcerer-Kings are not gonna like the monopoly on iron and obsidian that Hamanu will hold.
#21 Pennarin Jun 24, 2010 0:36:49	I just read Wiki's short Story section on one of the old Dark Sun PC games, and it states that a plot exist by the Dragon and his Lord Warrior to take over Tyr...and I was like whaa? As if the Dragon needs plots to take down cities.
#22 firesnakearies Jun 24, 2010 4:20:08	What about a Dark Sun campaign where instead of dying, Kalak succeeded?  He completes his ritual and becomes a full dragon.  What happens then?  That could be a whole different kind of interesting time for the Tyr region. Or maybe one where he has only faked his death, and fled (either as a full dragon, or not), and everyone thinks that Kalak is dead, so things are mostly the same as they would be in the regular scenario, at least for awhile.  But out there, secretly, Kalak is doing something, and eventually its going to come to light.
#23 xlorep_darkhelm Jun 24, 2010 5:08:33	What about a Dark Sun campaign where instead of dying, Kalak succeeded?  He completes his ritual and becomes a full dragon.  What happens then?  That could be a whole different kind of interesting time for the Tyr region. Or maybe one where he has only faked his death, and fled (either as a full dragon, or not), and everyone thinks that Kalak is dead, so things are mostly the same as they would be in the regular scenario, at least for awhile.  But out there, secretly, Kalak is doing something, and eventually its going to come to light.  All of those could be interesting for campaigns, true. Just means you'd need to make up Kalak and his stats...
#24 turlough Jun 24, 2010 8:34:59	But, at least for me, today's game designers need to start with something that has the conflict already present.  In a setting where nothing has changed and there is no reason to think it will change for thousands of years, they are missing something. Alternately, it is a bad idea because the heroes should be the force for the change, the things that cause the stagnant state to end. Which is how it works in much heroic fiction. With something or someone else causing changes, the PCs can too easily become reactive rather than proactive, merely responding to events rather than being their cause. But these ideas aren't mutually exclusive.  If we go with the idea that the PCs are the ones to kill Kalak (and on a side note, it NEVER went over well how Freedom started with the PCs being slaves with any group I ran through it), then it would be great to get ideas in the book how that might be accomplished, what success or failure means and ideas after it is accomplished.  A lot of us on the boards really like the original boxed set.  However, from the standpoint of buying a ready to go campaign, there is a lot lacking in it.  All of the city states are treated as independent places.  There is little talk about how they interact.  It's assumed, especially with Tyr's iron mine and Urik's obsidian mine, but that's about it.  Now, this does go to what *I* would like to see in a setting for DND (or any role playing game) but I don't know how far this is from what most would want.  Further, setting up conflict gives more areas where the PCs can interact and be heroes in some way, which is also what we want.  For example, it would be nice if the boxed set had spelled out, although mostly at high levels and leaving details to each DM, how much Tyr was sharing its iron or how much obsidian Urik was sharing.  Were they being stingy?  Reasonable?  Generous?  What if Nibenay harvests wood from the forest at a rate that the Oba finds wrong?  Again, lots of possibilities for conflict and the resolution can be diplomatic or fighting.  What do the other city states bring to the table?  Why is Balic important?  What does it have?  (Again, just thinking of the boxed set.  I am sure Dune Trader had a chart on this.  Even then, is it enough?  What if Balic is declining because whatever they brought to the table isn't needed as much anymore?  What are the merchants, nobles and the SK going to do about it?  Are they at odds or helping each other?)  I also completely agree that working for the SK of your home city does not mean you are evil, except as perceived by others.  In fact, what if the PCs are in a "weak" city that can't afford to go to war?  So, the SK, or merchants, or whomever, tell the PCs they cannot start a war?  (Of course, then you need to figure out what it means if they do!)  I think we are actually hitting on something that annoyed me about GH back in the day.  Back then, as a young teenage DM, reading the GH boxed set was no fun for me.  It presented this world as a snapshot of what it was and the writing at the time didn't inspire me at all.  But, it didn't give the exact information I am asking for here.  What are the goals of the SKs?  What are they trying to do?  Even the Dragon Kings books didn't tell us these things.  They had assumptions but never did they specifically say, "X is trying to do this, Y is doing that, Z is doing this other thing."  For myself, I want a specific idea on what the relationships are, what the conflict is and other ideas for adventures to make the PCs heroes.  I want to know what the SKs are doing long term, or at least a few of them for ideas.  Same for the other major power groups, such as the Veiled Alliance and the merchant houses.  I can choose to ignore it but that's what I want as a base.  [For myself, I see the veiled alliance like the Tok'ra of Stargate SG-1 in that they had been "fighting" the bad guys for thousands of years but not until O'Neill and the rest show up do they see any progress in their goals.] So, going back to the response to me.  I agree that the PCs absolutely should be the force for change.  I am creating my own Dark Sun around that idea and it's a long term plan for my weekly group to eventually play all of the PCs that help make the Tyr area a better place, spread out over centuries.  I want a snapshot of a world that includes goals of the city states rulers, and other organizations, and the plans they have at that moment to achieve those goals. Great discussion!  Thanks! turlough
#25 P1NBACK Jun 24, 2010 12:48:40	I too am confused by this because they keep saying they are "going back to the original boxed set" but from what I've read, Kalak is still alive in the original boxed set. In fact, he'll still be alive when I begin my DS campaign next month. I do find it odd that they'd start the campaign not JUST BEFORE his death (where the PCs might be able to have a hand in it), but just after... Weird.
#26 silverbullet5774 Jun 24, 2010 13:48:31	The PCs are heroes.  But that doesn't mean that they need to be heroes for good.  They can be heroes for a city state, or a merchant house.  They can be the champions of a SK, or the Order.  Hero cannot be understood outside of the context within which the hero lives. Agreed. I've always wanted to run a campaign where the group were all loyal to a particular SK. Like a group from Urik who are loyal to Hamanu, King of the World, and go out to fight for Urik by defeating other pretenders (read: other SK's) that try and attack their people. This group could even be seen as a group of heroes in the eyes of the Urikites, but as quite vile and dangerous to other city-states' residents. They don't all have to be Templars, just people who believe in what the SK is doing (or has told everyone he/she is doing). Oooooh, I like that idea.  Especially the 'heroes to their home city, villains to the rest' part.  If I were running it, they wouldn't have to be templars as you say, but I think the whole idea might be the brainchild of an ambitious templar and he would be the guy they answer to (rather than the king, at least at the heroic and maybe paragon tier) and he would have assembled the team and gives them assignements. Don't mind if I thieve your idea do you? This just might be my campaign. I kninda have this going on in my campaign, but right now its set up as the pl;layers choice. They are freed from slavery by an ambitous templar that sees their potential, and sent on a task in her behalf. Once they get to the place the task takes place they will have a choice to either side with the opposing faction or take up the templar as their patron.
#27 Pennarin Jun 24, 2010 14:02:50	I too am confused by this because they keep saying they are "going back to the original boxed set" but from what I've read, Kalak is still alive in the original boxed set. In fact, he'll still be alive when I begin my DS campaign next month. I do find it odd that they'd start the campaign not JUST BEFORE his death (where the PCs might be able to have a hand in it), but just after... Weird. They weren't that literal. It's a general rollback to the spirit of the original box.
#28 Pennarin Jun 24, 2010 14:04:20	I'm starting a thread on possible alternate futures for a campaign. Please everyone post your alternate future events in it!
#29 silverwulf Jun 27, 2010 19:25:16	Let's be realistic. What hope would noob 3rd level, unequipped PC's have of contributing anything meaningful in a direct manner to killing Kalak or holding off his minions? Playing the supporting role is about all you're able to do at that point. I like starting right after Kalak's death. It's a moumental, world changing event that says although it's not likely, change IS possible. And, it doesn't make Tyr any more safe in my book. If anything, with the possibility of corrupt government officials, others aspiring to become SK's, complete chaos and a lack of people to enforce rules, etc...it's potentially MORE dangerous than the city-states where the SK's keep order with an iron fist.
#30 The_Crimson_Dawn Jun 28, 2010 2:55:02	They probably chose this time so that there will be a point of light to stay in.  If Tyr is under tyrrany what will WoTC use as the PoL?  I do not neccessarilly think that you need a PoL but we all know WoTC loves them.