Most of the people that play and buy pen and paper accessories and books are not in elementary school. Why in each edition are they making it more and more child-like? I wanted the gritty, realistic and highly detailed artwork of previous editions. 3.5 I thought was too cartoonish, but the new one is worse.
I think the system they developed is faster and better but the style of all the rulebooks is too child-like. Especially in Dark Sun. This is supposed to be a deadly, hard world and it looks like a 1994 Saturday Morning Cartoon.
BOoo..
Hehe, Jeff Easly's art -so prevalent in 2e - certainly didn't land in the mature category.
True, but I really wish they could have gotten Brom back for at least some of the art in the new books. His art literally defined the look and feel of Dark Sun.
Are we talking about that guy that was really, really bad at drawing realistic musculature but still tried to make it really overly dramatic anyways and was also really, really bad about overly sexualizing artwork of women? Yeah, no thanks...
Rob Liefeld, one of the Image guys? I never knew he drew Dark Sun stuff.
:P
/\ Art
Personally, I really like most of the art...
Yes, but what do we 8-year olds know?
As much I would have liked to see Brom's work in DS again, I think he has moved beyond the price range of WotC.
Wayne Reynolds is brilliant. David Rapoza did a good job too.
The only artist that really is giving 4e a bad image IMHO is William O'Connor. He does fine monsters, but is horrible at humanoid anatomy and faces. Guy does strange upper arm muscles, breasts and male faces.
They should have Phil Foglio do it all. He can do fun/cartoony mixed with menacing/evil very well. And for Duke he even has cleavage.
Phil Foglio has cleavage? TMI dude, TMI.
My overall favorite art in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide: Shady Dealer.
(PS, I'm in the process of designing a major update to my sticky. It's been my hope that we're all so distracted by having the actual books that no one cares how many setbacks my life throws at me.)
I wanted the gritty, realistic and highly detailed artwork of previous editions.
I liked much of the artwork, but not all of it. There are a few pieces I dislike so much that I try to ignore them while on the page.
The pic for the Mul racial entry is one such piece. This artist's work has appeared in several of the supplements, and I have to say that I'm not a fan. The proportions of the figures seem completely wrong. The picture of a female, metal-clad warrior for the Gladiator character theme is ridiculous on many levels. Overall, though, I was pretty pleased.
I, too, would prefer more realistic artwork. Something along the lines of the art featured in Ptolus would be great. I don't think it will ever happen, though. That's never been the direction in which WotC has gone, as far as I can recall.
But what would I know; I'm a gay 8-year-old.
The picture of a female, metal-clad warrior for the Gladiator character theme is ridiculous on many levels.
Other than being more manga style... i can't really see anything wrong with that picture... the weapons are right, the "metal" could be bone.. i mean it is pretty white, not silver. Though I thought it was metal too, but honestly I don't think it would be unusual for a top tier gladiator to have a metal helm and greaves.
While I probably wouldn't have pulled the trigger to put this (and similar, like the elf chick picture for that one paragon path for athasian minstrels) in the book...
I think they are "good"... and honestly while I don't see darksun through manga eyes... i'm sure there are people that would (for example kids who have never heard of Brom)... and the pieces are few and far between anyway.
I agree with you though on the mul race picture... The artist tried to make them look bulky, and ended up just making them look like they might just have themselves some chromosome 21 trisomy.
If so, really? I don't get why when much of the inspiration of the setting was Barsoom, why wouldn't the art for Dark Sun draw from Barsoom heavily? Barsoom was a desert world with psychic powers, gladiatorial combat, multi-limb monsters, and protagonists dressed appropriately for the heat. That is, little to nothing.
Along comes Dark Sun's imitation of Barsoom, voilá, the look matches . . . except for no characters with no clothing part common on Barsoom. ;)
Dark Sun's....sun is a giant red star, not to mention defiling likely made a giant freaking hole in the o-zone layer. Skin protection is likely much more important than it is on earth's deserts even.
That said, I'm not exactly sure how this art is 8-year old. I liked most of it, found some of the pieces, like the previously mentioned gladiator and mul pictures kind of odd.
Wearing light cloth that covers alot is also good in the desert for protecting the skin against the sun's rays.
Dark Sun's....sun is a giant red star, not to mention defiling likely made a giant freaking hole in the o-zone layer. Skin protection is likely much more important than it is on earth's deserts even.
If we're going to get all sciency on a fantasy world (oy vey, ozone hole?) why not just assume races have "evolved" to tolerate enough of the sun's rays to not need light clothing like we do on earth?
I think a good bit of the artwork for Dark Sun 4E really sucks.
The Thri-kreen are in my opinion is just horrid. This is what I like my Thri-Kreen to look like.
IDK. Some of the new "no-abdomen" thri-kreens are pretty badass:
...while there actually was a lot of 2e thri-kreen art that was easily more horrible than any of the 4e stuff:
I mean, really? ew. lol. In fact, while i like the idea of an inhuman race with features like big-ass bug abdomens, a lot of the art just looked awkward. I can't find a majority of the thri-keen pics i've seen in the old books online but more often than not the old thri-kreens looked bizarre with their tiny single pair of legs supporting a body with a heavy, bloated kaboose.
As much is generally hate Baxa's stuff, i admit that he did a pic in Dragon Kings that is my favorite depiction of the thri-kreen, abdomen or no. Wish i could find a copy online.
I really like that top pic, they look cool as hell. I wish it was done with a background and with some color.
and btw, for those who weren't around during 2e, THIS is what a Mul oughta look like...
THIS.
I'm not generally unhappy with the 4e DS art (although some of it is face-palmingly bad), but I do think it was better in 2e. I was under the impression that TSR and Wizards always required ownership of artwork used in their products, so I wonder why we don't see at least one of the old Brom's here and there, especially the cover, since presumably Wizards owns the artwork anyway. Maybe it's in keeping with a standardized look across products, but Dark Sun, imo, should be allowed to depart a bit.
(child's giggle)
Of course their have been a lot of artisitc misfires in 4e in general. There is a picture that goes with a monk PP in the PHB3 that (I think) is supposed to be a monk swirled in mists, instead it looks like he farted and is kind of embarrased by it.
Think John Steuart Curry (Google Images him if you don't know) who did amazing paintings of people living in middle America. His work is very provocative and imaginative without delving into fantasy.
In passing, I have to give kudos to Tyler Jacobson for the picture of the dray defiler (DSCC page 33). He's the only artist to ever succeed in making a dragonborn woman look sexy.
It's just a shame she's also irredeemably evil... 
Most of the people that play and buy pen and paper accessories and books are not in elementary school. Why in each edition are they making it more and more child-like? I wanted the gritty, realistic and highly detailed artwork of previous editions. 3.5 I thought was too cartoonish, but the new one is worse.
I think the system they developed is faster and better but the style of all the rulebooks is too child-like. Especially in Dark Sun. This is supposed to be a deadly, hard world and it looks like a 1994 Saturday Morning Cartoon.
BOoo..
Do you own the book or do you thumb through them at the book store?
Try page 86 with the Mul gladiator holding a bloody blade in one hand and a severed head in the other. All the while standing on a blood soaked arena floor.
Or try the PHB1 at the art for the Rituals chapter with the dead fighter with blood running out of his nose and his distressed face.
And another page in PHB1 that I cant recall right now but its a female character with a maul caving in a zombie or goblins head and the spray that followed afterwards...
If this stuff is too childlike for you I'd really hate to see what your definition of mature or deadly would be. This isn't an all out gore fest, nor Heavy Metal with fantasy T&A all over the place.
I think the only real problem I have with some of the 4e DS art is that all the mul women and most of the elves (of both sexes) look like half-elves. I think the only elf that actually looks like a proper Athasian elf (i.e. 7 feet tall with strangely elongated legs) is the one on page 45 of the DSCC, and it's been squished down to about the size of a postage stamp!
In passing, I have to give kudos to Tyler Jacobson for the picture of the dray defiler (DSCC page 33). He's the only artist to ever succeed in making a dragonborn woman look sexy.
Really? I don't like that Elf picture because she looks like a Goliath - she has the exact same skin tone and patterns, as well as Goliath eyes. It's easier to see in the art gallery - picture 22.
Really? I don't like that Elf picture because she looks like a Goliath - she has the exact same skin tone and patterns, as well as Goliath eyes. It's easier to see in the art gallery - picture 22.
I was really just thinking of the proportions. I don't think she looks much like a goliath, though, even with the stripey skin and pupilless eyes.
In most of the 2e artwork, female muls were as brawny and buff as their male counterparts yet in 4e they all look like puny half-elf women. Futhermore, in 2e all muls were supposed to be bald (despite some incredibly rare pics where they had topknots) and yet in 4e not only are the topknots written right into the text but every depiction of a female mul shows her with long, flowing hair! The end result is that the male muls in 4e look "right", as per the history of the setting, while the female muls look like generic skinny fantasy women.
The female mul seems buff and hard and competent to me, no issue. Maybe ONLY males are really bald, due to male hormones like us humans?
On the elves, well, the Dark Sun elves are all athlets by default, experts at running... It's obvious that they should be less scrawny than other settings elves, no?
Also, this is not technicaly the old setting, but a remix, so....
Also, this is not technicaly the old setting, . . .
No kidding . . .
I think the system they developed is faster and better but the style of all the rulebooks is too child-like. Especially in Dark Sun. This is supposed to be a deadly, hard world and it looks like a 1994 Saturday Morning Cartoon.
I totally agree with you. Bring back Brom!
There is actually some halfway decent art in the Darksun book, but its nothing compared to the 2nd edition art.
In general 4th edition art has been far, far inferior to 2nd edition art. I suspect that a lot of the art budget has gone into DDI. DDI is awesome, but I do miss the amazing fantasy art that populated the world in the days of old.
Some guy jcpillar forgot the childish cartoons of AD&D1, and the juvenile teenage fantasy bits of AD&D2....
Or the oD&D ads that were published in comic books?
Also, this is not technicaly the old setting, . . .
No kidding . . .
Then go play the old one. The major argument against 4e: It changes way too much. The older stuff is better. The new art is stupid. etc.
Then go play the old stuff lol. If you dont like it stop geeking out of over how you dont like that they did to your role playing game.
Whats the point of a new addition if it doesnt make changes? No matter how big or small. I've been playin since 2nd ed. and I like 4e the best. No I'm not some 14yr old kid with a WoW account. Ive been playin since 2e was the latest thing hehe.
Simply put. Just play what you like and realize all you have is an opinion.
Im afraid the female mul is yet another casualty of 4e's "sexification" of the female specimens of PC races.
Oh, I'm certainly not opposed to sexy female characters in the artwork. But WotC's 4e artists have already proven they can make female characters look sexy while also being obviously tough and powerfully-built. The half-orc and goliath artwork in PHB2 is awesome, IMO, as is the picture of Mearedes in the DSCC. The female mul artwork fails, not by making mul women look sexy, but by failing to make them look like mul. "Looking like a mul" and "looking sexy" shouldn't be mutually exclusive, and it's a shame the artists didn't really even try to pull that off like they did with half-orcs and goliaths for PHB2. And so we ended up with bald (or topknotted) half-elves pretending to be mul.
Simply put. Just play what you like and realize all you have is an opinion.
Who peed in your cornflakes? Lighten up, no one made you the enforcer against wrong-thought, a forum-ninja wielding dulled strawmen to strike down someone's light humor . . .
The was alot of bad art in earlier editions including Darksun. SOme of the Kreen in 4th ed look better than the Kreen on the front of TK of Athas in 2nd ed. Muls in particular look quite bad in 4th ed though.
see, this is pretty ironic. i have the old MM2 (from the early 1980s) and i think it has an early 'kreen in it. however, some of those bugs that started appearing around the late 1990s looked like garbage: they were chubby and pink and for some reason, looked like old leather that got left in the rain. blah!
ANYHOW, i can't wait to actually check out some of the new DS stuff
well for any one complaining the art "sucks" then go draw your own, if you cant stop complaining about that suckage of art its better than anything you can make.
I suppose in a thread discussing whether the art is marketed to 8-year-olds, we were overdue for an argument as if it were from an 8-year-old.
Excellent work!well for any one complaining the art "sucks" then go draw your own, if you cant stop complaining about that suckage of art its better than anything you can make.
I'm actually more amused that this is the Poster's first ever post.
Flaming the flamers...love it
