Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 demonwastesmarauder Aug 28, 2010 19:23:46	Yes, yes, Tyr is just now breathing in the fresh scent of freedom after centuries of oppression, and it's all so hopeful and inspiring and such, but Raam is arguably a better setting for Dark Sun adventures, and likely just as good a home-base, if not better than Tyr. Below, I will describe my formula for ideal adventuring potential, and compare Tyr, and Raam, and Urik, as a sort of negative control. Tyr has = 1. Freedom 2. Danger 3. Support 1. With Kalak dead, centuries of tyranny has been lifted, so there is some freedom to travel, investigate, and engage in commerce. But Tithian and the slayers of Kalak are quickly trying to reestablish order. 2. Danger comes from outside threats attempting to exploit perceived weakness, and the occasional factional infighting, but the new authorities will try to contain these threats. 3. Tyr, as a major city, has plenty of food and water and available weapons for adventurers to stock up on. Contrast this with Urik, which adds a new dimension - Evil to overcome. Urik has = 1. Danger 2. Support  3. Evil to overcome 1. No Freedom; Hamanu keeps everything and everyone on a tight leash. But the danger is overwhelming from his Templars and troops. Arguably, such a tightly controlled place is likely to overwhelm the PC's immediately if they stir up trouble. 2. Urik also, is a large city with many supplies. 3. Hamanu exists as an epic-level threat for PC's. but Raam has the best of everything. For an adventurer. Raam has = 1. Freedom 2. Danger 3. Support 4. Evil to Overcome 1. With the city in the grip of lawlessness, the local police have little interest in solving crimes and work only to line their own pockets. No one to clamp down on the PC's for breaking some silly laws! Such corruption allows ample role-playing opportunities! 2. Danger - because Raam is so lawless, PC's must contend with mobs of starving rioters,  feuding warlords, and Abalach-Re's assassins. Plenty to do and fight, and it's not at all guaranteed that the police will interfere. 3. Support - though lawless, Raam still conducts trade and has some supplies available - just not for the commoners. 4. Evil to Overcome - play off one faction of warlord against the other! Rob, steal, assassinate for whoever pays you! Work for or against the Sorceror-Queen! Defeating Abalach Re can be crucial to an epic-level quest! Or work with her, against her own people! Adventuring goodness abounds!    *sigh* In closing, I conclude that there should be more support for Raam as an adventuring home-base. With Kalak dead, there's little of obvious Epic-level importance to do in Tyr. You can fight Hamanu, but it would be much tougher to have adventures in Urik.
#2 jahatch28 Aug 28, 2010 22:10:47	I can't argue with any of that.. makes sense... the biggest difference is Tyr is going to have to deal with an influx of aggressors (like Urik) and there is room for groups (PCs at higher levels?) to establish themselves in Tyr as more than just another warlord group staking a claim on the lands and city... but, if you like the lawless wild-west style with the oppressors looking the other way, the Raam it is ... My only complaint so far in regards to the sorcerer kings is that far too many adventures (published that is) seem to involve the Sorcerer-kings giving out quests... I would rather see  powerful templars, higher ups in the Veiled Alliance, or important Merchant houses being the initial powers that PCs have to deal with ... the idea what a group of level 1-5 PCs is given a mission by the Shadow King or tasked with achieving something for the Lion of Urik seems silly to me.... Making it known that failure is not an option and that at any time the sorcerer-king in question can check in on you with powerful psychic or magical powers is certainly reason for PCs to do what they are told, but I just don't see sorcerer-kings getting so involved until the PCs are big deals... (sorry, bit off tangent, but it does fit with Raam b/c you really aren't going to see Abalach Re get invovled unless you make fun of her 4-armed, loincloth wearing diety, and instead, it is going to be the midlevel powers and warlords that make life hard for the PCs). The other thing I didn't recall from Dark Sun 2.0 was Tyr being so isolated.. it seems way further "out of the way" compared to some of the other city-states... good place for a revolution (! surprise!) but not some place the PCs are going to retreat to every time an expedition to the Sea of Silt fails... also, something else I need to do, is figure out how the known area of Athas compares in size to other maps (like of Toril/Faerun, or even the Nentir Vale, as well as compared to real life)... I have such a hard time comparing maps and scales across the scope of WOTC products... I had at one time overlayed a scaled map of the Nentir Vale with Southern New England (being in Rhode Island) and the Nentir Vale covered most just about all of Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut... good to know.. now, time to do the same thing with Athas... are these 7 city states ruling an area the size of New England? The whole east coast? most of middle-America?.... google maps here I come.. (okay, now I'm way off topic, sorry DemonwasteMarauder)... Josh
#3 demonwastesmarauder Aug 28, 2010 22:50:19	My only complaint so far in regards to the sorcerer kings is that far too many adventures (published that is) seem to involve the Sorcerer-kings giving out quests... I would rather see  powerful templars, higher ups in the Veiled Alliance, or important Merchant houses being the initial powers that PCs have to deal with ... the idea what a group of level 1-5 PCs is given a mission by the Shadow King or tasked with achieving something for the Lion of Urik seems silly to me....     Even here, there is opportunity. The campaign guide says that many Templars of Abalach-Re are in fear for their lives and rarely travel in some neighborhoods. Some of them ignore their duties out of self-preservation on  the lawless streets. That might create a reason for the Sorceror Queen to look towards people outside the normal power structure for sensitive tasks! Hint-hint.      But that would be unthinkable in Draj, Urik, or Nibenay. If a task is worth doing, but the Sorceror King is too busy or engaged, well - that's what Templars are for. It's hard to imagine why any of them would not just send some templars for whatever needs doing.      In Urik, you do anything illegal and the rest of the game would become either a hiding skill challenge, or an escape the city skill challenge. And that would be all. Tyr maybe has some potential, but there's no one there anymore appropriate as enemies for high-paragon or epic PC's.    But Raam. Almost anything could happen!
#4 Duskweaver Aug 29, 2010 4:56:12	now, time to do the same thing with Athas... are these 7 city states ruling an area the size of New England? The whole east coast? most of middle-America? The map in the DSCS covers an area about the size of the south-western USA, taking in California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico and Colorado.
#5 Belphanior Aug 29, 2010 7:12:27	While Raam does have those four things, it also has something else: nothing. By which I mean, Raam is on the verge of collapse. It's far too short on food, supplies, and tools. Trade with other cities is also lower than Tyr, because Raam may need a lot but it has little to give in return. As a consequence, Raam lends itself to only a few adventure scenarios, mainly urban survival that is just as brutal and starved as in the desert. I think you'd actually have to keep track of survival days inside Raam, something which other cities wouldn't need. This is actually a kind of cool adventuring locale, merging dense urban populations with the hunger of the wastelands (while Abalach-Re plays the fiddle, no doubt). But it's not a good choice for the prime adventuring hub. You might go to Raam to retrieve something, but you wouldn't stick around. Tyr is worth fighting for. Raam is a waste of time.
#6 jahatch28 Aug 29, 2010 9:12:16	I guess Belphanior won't be vacationing in Raam... I do see what Belph is saying, but I don't think Raam is actually going to collapse this season, this year, or even this campaign... (unless you want it to.. I mean... having Tyr in upheavel and then Raam follow would be cool for a campaign)... Raam sounds a lot like the current Iraq/Afghan situation... tribes and warring factions fighting over scraps, but somehow they keep it together and fight back against other invaders, other warlords, etc... it is going to be a bit more about survival than living in Tyr, but maybe that is good for the campaign, not letting the PCs get lazy... or maybe it makes the PCs want to get the heck out of Raam and find some place somewhat more stable... Josh
#7 demonwastesmarauder Aug 29, 2010 11:28:52	Well obviously the warlords and power-factions are able to survive well enough. It's just common people who rely on the 'goodwill' of their government that are out of luck. In that kind of environment armed ruffians will be the ones to get the goodies. And that can easily be the PC's. You could try to work with positive elements to uplift Raam from chaos, if you wanted, just like Tyr, where you can fight against aggressors and would-be tyrants. But Raam also has a big, juicy Sorceror Queen to fight if you wish.
#8 nosan2 Aug 29, 2010 21:47:54	Southwestern US overlaid on Dark Sun 4e map www.azathought.com/darksun/2010/08/how-b...