Why stop some things and allow another? - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Why stop some things and allow another?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kronikalkoholik
Jan 19, 2011 16:19:49 I played old Dark Sun and loved the setting. I'm not sure I will play it in 4e, just not sure it will mesh well with that system ( I'm not taking a jab at it and I hope people do play and enjoy it ).

I haven't really looked to much at the system, only peaked into the book at the store. But it seems that the Divine source isn't in. I was expecting them to find a way to include everything but this wouldn't bug me. There are enough other classes that heal know so it isn't really a problem.

Now what I find strange that if they are ok with closing on a whole power source they feel obligated to add in Tieflings and Eladrin.

Any thoughs?
#2
tavitin
Jan 19, 2011 21:10:21 Refluffing a gazzilion powers would be tiresome (and the book would be triple the size)

Refluffing two or three races seems a weekend job, and rewarding since they did a good job at it.

There's your answer.
#3
BRJN
Jan 19, 2011 21:41:21 Dark Sun strikes me as a world where the martial classes can be awesome. Compare this under the OD&D rules, where at higher levels, you had a Magic-User and his sidekicks. DS allows the fighters and rangers and rogues to shine. It also allows Elves and Dwarves to come out from behind their stereotype cardboard cut-outs and do something different for a living (especially elves).

By taking out Divine (and hence Clerics), you make the world tougher; you really can DIE if you pick a fight with the wrong thing. Nobody can magically save your hide.

For comparison to today, in Basic D&D, the classes were: Magic-User, Fighter, Elf, Dwarf, Thief, Cleric. Who does DS make look like a better choice, compared to say FR or LotR? Do you want to play the same character in all three worlds? (If you answered 'different', then DS is doing its job.)
#4
omnijake
Jan 20, 2011 1:52:20 The new dark sun campaign likes to keep things inclusive, so even though the gods have left Athas divine classes are still available as shown through a text box on pg 9 label Divine Characters:

"The gods who once influenced Athas are long dead and nearly forgotten by the people of the world Therefore, heroes who draw on divine power are rare indeed. You won’t find temples or priests of your god. You’ll probably never meet another person who believes in any god. Still, if you really want to play a divine character, you and your Dungeon Master might be able to make it work."

Then they list some example back stories. In fact, that is one of many text boxes that contradicts earlier statements made in the campaign setting, allowing players to have the decision to have full accessibility; another example of this is a text box that gives players reasons to play as a character race the is extinct in Athas--the brilliant dues ex machina include such clichés as your character is a time traveler.

So, for the sake of allowing players more choice 4e has said, "this is standard in Athas, but you and your DM can do whatever you want to change it." The end result is that few things are explicitly closed out.
#5
kronikalkoholik
Jan 20, 2011 7:06:32 Ok makes sense.

I knew that divine weren't straight out forbidden, but they were left up to the DM while Tiefling are explicitly included.

I guess I have to read up on Tieflings in this setting, see how they do them. Also when I played the old Dark Sun I liked the idea of no orcs, but today I see the potential in doing a refluff on them and many basic monsters. With some nice art the deviates from the green skinned fantasy orc to be more like the Urak-Hai ( or whatever there name was ) where represented in LOtR movies (but with bone or hardwood armor instead of iron ).

Ps: Is there a good way of creating a Elemental Cleric using a different class plus some options you could think of?
#6
ian.thomson
Jan 20, 2011 7:35:59 There's also possibilities that some of the gods might have survived in hiding, particularly.

Asmodeus may now be hiding/recovering somewhere in the Grey.

Nibenay is guarding a temple that may belong to Tharizdun (if he's not potentially active, why worry?).

Orcs can easily be reskinned as Tareks. It's actually possible that Tareks are post-Gruumsh orcs (who have since rebelled in worship of earth spirits).

Dug up an old post of mine: "Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around."

Also, in terms of bonuses, 4e characters are close to 2e Dark Sun. Average stat was like 14 in 2e DS, 12 in 4e; but it took like a 16 str to get a +1 to hit in 2e, only a 12 in 4e. 4e HP is higher than previous editions. 4e level 1 is the old level 3 or 4.
#7
tavitin
Jan 20, 2011 8:38:40
Ok makes sense.

I knew that divine weren't straight out forbidden, but they were left up to the DM while Tiefling are explicitly included.

I guess I have to read up on Tieflings in this setting, see how they do them. Also when I played the old Dark Sun I liked the idea of no orcs, but today I see the potential in doing a refluff on them and many basic monsters. With some nice art the deviates from the green skinned fantasy orc to be more like the Urak-Hai ( or whatever there name was ) where represented in LOtR movies (but with bone or hardwood armor instead of iron ).

Ps: Is there a good way of creating a Elemental Cleric using a different class plus some options you could think of?

Are you familiar with the Theme Mechanic?

After you have chosen a race, class, powers and feats, you choose a theme. One of the themes is called Elemental Priest. Whenever you gain a power, you can choose between your standard class powers or take your theme power instead.

Being a cleric, choosing powers 50/50 between elemental priest and cleric and add icing on top of your cleric powers to make them look more Dark Sunnish, you have yourself a worshiper of the elements
#8
Sarlax
Jan 20, 2011 20:47:59 Generally the classes are pretty flavorless beyond their roles. With no fluff, no divine descriptor, and no class names, many classes within the same role are similar - their powers don't usually scream, "That must be a cleric!" from the mechanics alone.

Given that, you can probably insert the mechanics of a class without trouble. I am inclined to not to that anyway, but if you do, it's probably best to reskin the classes in the old DS fashion. I'd prefer to leave gods out of it all the way and just say all "divine" power actually comes from a sorcerer-king.
#9
tehsquirrely
Jan 21, 2011 13:29:48 It's not difficulty to re-fluff a class, as long as you don't try to refluff all of its powers, just the ones the player(s) are/is taking. Clerics can easily be primal, worshipping spirits. Avengers can be psionic by just changing their oath of enmity to something like "psionic mark." Paladins are a bit harder to do as they're holy warriors, but as a kind of martial/primal hybrid it could be do-able on a certain level. Invokers could be arcane, using ancient eldritch words now mostly forgotten except by a select few, or as powerful templars in service to a sorcerer-king. Runepriests are easily arcane as well, just change the flavor of runes from divine words to eldritch words. You get the picture.

But, for me at least, half the fun of darksun is getting people to play classes they wouldn't normally. Playing a battlemind instead of a paladin, a shaman instead of a cleric, or a psion instead of an invoker. It just makes the world feel different from a list of "standard fantasy settings" that's longer than the fighter's list of powers.
#10
ian.thomson
Jan 22, 2011 10:35:00 Having played a paladin, then switching to a hybrid fighter/paladin (and being fond of hybrids in general), I don't think that's completely true that classes within the same role are pretty much interchangable. Having access to enough classes from different sources, I don't think it's necessary to refluff the divine classes into one of the existing power sources (since the classes in the current power sources do their job as is). As a paladin, most of the powers were built around "You're going to attack me, not because I'll kill you, but for no good reason; and I'm going to be more inspired to attack you if your buddies try to help." As a hybrid, the fighter powers were mostly "I'm going to hit you. You better hit me, too, because I'll hit you if you don't." The paladin's powers make the most sense if they have some sort of supernatural power behind them, and have fluff that involves self-sacrifice, nobility, and all that jazz. It could be reworked as an arcane/psionic deal for a templar class, but handling templars as a theme works better, since the SKs are likely to employ a variety of goons.

Clerics also have far more powers that grant real HP instead of temp HP or buffs. Their powers make more sense with "I'm not healing you, some powerful entity I serve is." They could be refluffed as a class that serves elemental spirits, but we already have the shaman class and elemental priest theme. Need something beefier than a shaman? Play a warlord with the elemental priest theme.

Avengers have more "I'm going to get close to my target and none of his buddies are gonna be able to do anything about it" powers, and Oath of Enmity is pretty much "someone up there wants me to hit you." It could be refluffed as an arcane or psionic class, but monk already handles the psionic deal quite well (not just as a shaolin monk, but "I would be a rogue, but I have psionic power backing my attacks"), and sorcerer and warlock handle striker just fine (warlock can be built for "I would be a rogue, but I have arcane power backing my attacks.") Rogues have to worry about the guy's buddies, rangers do to unless they're not getting close to the target, and neither really teleport.

I'll grant that invokers are indeed pretty close to wizards in mechanics, though they have more buff abilities. In another setting, I'd say invokers could be refluffed as some sort of "wizards with a bit of luck magic" (conversely, wizards could be invokers for a specific deity). However, while such a wizard wouldn't be completely anathema to DS, it's not exactly supported by the setting. Druid powers, with their limitations on weapon use, do lend themselves to some sort of shapeshifting, and primal power lends itself well to that. Psions are close enough to wizards (although different enough from invokers) that power points are the only thing keeping the two from blurring together in hybrid classing.

If one wants to bring in the divine classes, just bring them in. If you don't want them to be divine, I would recommend refluffing them as a completely new power source. There's stuff in the 2e books to grab. How about bringing back the elemental vortexes? The Cerulean storm? Halfling lifetech?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kronikalkoholik Jan 19, 2011 16:19:49	I played old Dark Sun and loved the setting. I'm not sure I will play it in 4e, just not sure it will mesh well with that system ( I'm not taking a jab at it and I hope people do play and enjoy it ). I haven't really looked to much at the system, only peaked into the book at the store. But it seems that the Divine source isn't in. I was expecting them to find a way to include everything but this wouldn't bug me. There are enough other classes that heal know so it isn't really a problem. Now what I find strange that if they are ok with closing on a whole power source they feel obligated to add in Tieflings and Eladrin. Any thoughs?
#2 tavitin Jan 19, 2011 21:10:21	Refluffing a gazzilion powers would be tiresome (and the book would be triple the size) Refluffing two or three races seems a weekend job, and rewarding since they did a good job at it. There's your answer.
#3 BRJN Jan 19, 2011 21:41:21	Dark Sun strikes me as a world where the martial classes can be awesome. Compare this under the OD&D rules, where at higher levels, you had a Magic-User and his sidekicks. DS allows the fighters and rangers and rogues to shine. It also allows Elves and Dwarves to come out from behind their stereotype cardboard cut-outs and do something different for a living (especially elves). By taking out Divine (and hence Clerics), you make the world tougher; you really can DIE if you pick a fight with the wrong thing. Nobody can magically save your hide. For comparison to today, in Basic D&D, the classes were: Magic-User, Fighter, Elf, Dwarf, Thief, Cleric. Who does DS make look like a better choice, compared to say FR or LotR? Do you want to play the same character in all three worlds? (If you answered 'different', then DS is doing its job.)
#4 omnijake Jan 20, 2011 1:52:20	The new dark sun campaign likes to keep things inclusive, so even though the gods have left Athas divine classes are still available as shown through a text box on pg 9 label Divine Characters: "The gods who once influenced Athas are long dead and nearly forgotten by the people of the world Therefore, heroes who draw on divine power are rare indeed. You won’t find temples or priests of your god. You’ll probably never meet another person who believes in any god. Still, if you really want to play a divine character, you and your Dungeon Master might be able to make it work." Then they list some example back stories. In fact, that is one of many text boxes that contradicts earlier statements made in the campaign setting, allowing players to have the decision to have full accessibility; another example of this is a text box that gives players reasons to play as a character race the is extinct in Athas--the brilliant dues ex machina include such clichés as your character is a time traveler. So, for the sake of allowing players more choice 4e has said, "this is standard in Athas, but you and your DM can do whatever you want to change it." The end result is that few things are explicitly closed out.
#5 kronikalkoholik Jan 20, 2011 7:06:32	Ok makes sense. I knew that divine weren't straight out forbidden, but they were left up to the DM while Tiefling are explicitly included. I guess I have to read up on Tieflings in this setting, see how they do them. Also when I played the old Dark Sun I liked the idea of no orcs, but today I see the potential in doing a refluff on them and many basic monsters. With some nice art the deviates from the green skinned fantasy orc to be more like the Urak-Hai ( or whatever there name was ) where represented in LOtR movies (but with bone or hardwood armor instead of iron ). Ps: Is there a good way of creating a Elemental Cleric using a different class plus some options you could think of?
#6 ian.thomson Jan 20, 2011 7:35:59	There's also possibilities that some of the gods might have survived in hiding, particularly. Asmodeus may now be hiding/recovering somewhere in the Grey. Nibenay is guarding a temple that may belong to Tharizdun (if he's not potentially active, why worry?). Orcs can easily be reskinned as Tareks. It's actually possible that Tareks are post-Gruumsh orcs (who have since rebelled in worship of earth spirits). Dug up an old post of mine: "Torog could be hanging around in the underdark, and Tharizdun is still hanging around the abyss. I also figure Asmodeus (or a chunk of him) managed to sneak into the Grey with the rest of the devils, but that the (unaligned) Raven Queen is gone. Vecna managed to bust outta Ravenloft, so he shouldn't have any trouble hiding from some primordials. The Yuan-Ti are still around, so it's fitting (and Conan-esque) to have Zehir around." Also, in terms of bonuses, 4e characters are close to 2e Dark Sun. Average stat was like 14 in 2e DS, 12 in 4e; but it took like a 16 str to get a +1 to hit in 2e, only a 12 in 4e. 4e HP is higher than previous editions. 4e level 1 is the old level 3 or 4.
#7 tavitin Jan 20, 2011 8:38:40	Ok makes sense. I knew that divine weren't straight out forbidden, but they were left up to the DM while Tiefling are explicitly included. I guess I have to read up on Tieflings in this setting, see how they do them. Also when I played the old Dark Sun I liked the idea of no orcs, but today I see the potential in doing a refluff on them and many basic monsters. With some nice art the deviates from the green skinned fantasy orc to be more like the Urak-Hai ( or whatever there name was ) where represented in LOtR movies (but with bone or hardwood armor instead of iron ). Ps: Is there a good way of creating a Elemental Cleric using a different class plus some options you could think of? Are you familiar with the Theme Mechanic? After you have chosen a race, class, powers and feats, you choose a theme. One of the themes is called Elemental Priest. Whenever you gain a power, you can choose between your standard class powers or take your theme power instead. Being a cleric, choosing powers 50/50 between elemental priest and cleric and add icing on top of your cleric powers to make them look more Dark Sunnish, you have yourself a worshiper of the elements
#8 Sarlax Jan 20, 2011 20:47:59	Generally the classes are pretty flavorless beyond their roles. With no fluff, no divine descriptor, and no class names, many classes within the same role are similar - their powers don't usually scream, "That must be a cleric!" from the mechanics alone. Given that, you can probably insert the mechanics of a class without trouble. I am inclined to not to that anyway, but if you do, it's probably best to reskin the classes in the old DS fashion. I'd prefer to leave gods out of it all the way and just say all "divine" power actually comes from a sorcerer-king.
#9 tehsquirrely Jan 21, 2011 13:29:48	It's not difficulty to re-fluff a class, as long as you don't try to refluff all of its powers, just the ones the player(s) are/is taking. Clerics can easily be primal, worshipping spirits. Avengers can be psionic by just changing their oath of enmity to something like "psionic mark." Paladins are a bit harder to do as they're holy warriors, but as a kind of martial/primal hybrid it could be do-able on a certain level. Invokers could be arcane, using ancient eldritch words now mostly forgotten except by a select few, or as powerful templars in service to a sorcerer-king. Runepriests are easily arcane as well, just change the flavor of runes from divine words to eldritch words. You get the picture. But, for me at least, half the fun of darksun is getting people to play classes they wouldn't normally. Playing a battlemind instead of a paladin, a shaman instead of a cleric, or a psion instead of an invoker. It just makes the world feel different from a list of "standard fantasy settings" that's longer than the fighter's list of powers.
#10 ian.thomson Jan 22, 2011 10:35:00	Having played a paladin, then switching to a hybrid fighter/paladin (and being fond of hybrids in general), I don't think that's completely true that classes within the same role are pretty much interchangable. Having access to enough classes from different sources, I don't think it's necessary to refluff the divine classes into one of the existing power sources (since the classes in the current power sources do their job as is). As a paladin, most of the powers were built around "You're going to attack me, not because I'll kill you, but for no good reason; and I'm going to be more inspired to attack you if your buddies try to help." As a hybrid, the fighter powers were mostly "I'm going to hit you. You better hit me, too, because I'll hit you if you don't." The paladin's powers make the most sense if they have some sort of supernatural power behind them, and have fluff that involves self-sacrifice, nobility, and all that jazz. It could be reworked as an arcane/psionic deal for a templar class, but handling templars as a theme works better, since the SKs are likely to employ a variety of goons. Clerics also have far more powers that grant real HP instead of temp HP or buffs. Their powers make more sense with "I'm not healing you, some powerful entity I serve is." They could be refluffed as a class that serves elemental spirits, but we already have the shaman class and elemental priest theme. Need something beefier than a shaman? Play a warlord with the elemental priest theme. Avengers have more "I'm going to get close to my target and none of his buddies are gonna be able to do anything about it" powers, and Oath of Enmity is pretty much "someone up there wants me to hit you." It could be refluffed as an arcane or psionic class, but monk already handles the psionic deal quite well (not just as a shaolin monk, but "I would be a rogue, but I have psionic power backing my attacks"), and sorcerer and warlock handle striker just fine (warlock can be built for "I would be a rogue, but I have arcane power backing my attacks.") Rogues have to worry about the guy's buddies, rangers do to unless they're not getting close to the target, and neither really teleport. I'll grant that invokers are indeed pretty close to wizards in mechanics, though they have more buff abilities. In another setting, I'd say invokers could be refluffed as some sort of "wizards with a bit of luck magic" (conversely, wizards could be invokers for a specific deity). However, while such a wizard wouldn't be completely anathema to DS, it's not exactly supported by the setting. Druid powers, with their limitations on weapon use, do lend themselves to some sort of shapeshifting, and primal power lends itself well to that. Psions are close enough to wizards (although different enough from invokers) that power points are the only thing keeping the two from blurring together in hybrid classing. If one wants to bring in the divine classes, just bring them in. If you don't want them to be divine, I would recommend refluffing them as a completely new power source. There's stuff in the 2e books to grab. How about bringing back the elemental vortexes? The Cerulean storm? Halfling lifetech?