I'll see if I can get the old stats on it from 2e DS and try some sort of conversion. Something like +2 Dex/+2 Cha, and maybe a racial trait of "treated as size small" when using weapons to show their overall weaker frame. I haven't looked at the Kenku in any detail, could that be used as a decent starting point?
I could see it done as a tier thing. first its one time per day for maybe two rounds at heroic, encuonter and again 2 rounds at paragon and at epic be an at will move that may allow for hover.
Or they'd just give it the appropriate racial feat support. Typically that's not additional uses (although occasionally a recharge) but benefits when using it.
My guess is that if it does show up, it'll be in Dragon. There's a Genasi that flies as an encounter, a monk encounter that grants flight. It's already possible to have a character fly twice in an encounter.
So, speed 4, small, flies twice an encounter, can fly better with feats, gets better flight at paragon and epic tiers. I know we have too many Dex/Wis races, but aren't they supposed to be somewhat more gifted as elemental priests and such?
Kenku can mimic all kinds of sounds, and they don't get flight. They're also very stealthy, and kinda small. I dunno if that'd work for Aarakocra, but it could be a starting point.
There's also supposed to be flying PCs in Gamma World. May just be possible to tack that bird mutation onto an existing race instead of gaining a theme, call it a day.
Also consider that their balancing factor in 2e was a pervasive claustrophobia, which from a game design standpoint is probably a bad balancing factor, like the shifting alignment of half-giants.
Claustrophobia presents a problem to DM's: dungeons are now likely off the table... which is doable in a DS campaign, but not really a limitation you necessarily want to assume. Also, set too much of the session indoors, and you have a player who has nothing to do, while the rest of the pc's do whatever.
I think kenku would make a fine replacement for Aarakocra, though I am sure not everyone will agree. Like having a large PC race, a flying PC race is pretty cool, and taking that away from them takes away a lot of the appeal of the race.
What I'd really like is for WOTC to give us a monster stat write up for Aarakocra like those in the back of the first two monster manuals. As long as they make it clear for inexperienced DMs that flight might be a major unbalancing issue, I don't see the problem.
Individual DMs can decide for themselves if they wish to allow them.
Granted, we do mainly ourdoor, larger scale adventure instead of dungeons, rinse and repeat.
The inclusion of a flying PC has opened tons of new aspects of an adventure and made it lots of fun for the group (granted, my players aren't the typical beat this, get treasure, go to the next, style where I could see a character with something like flight, may be an issue).
I think try it and see if your group can handle it...
Sanjay
Granted, we do mainly ourdoor, larger scale adventure instead of dungeons, rinse and repeat.
I love the implied superiority there.
The biggest reason balance for stuff like half giants, etc is an issue is due to combat abilities and then the ability to surpass challenges (maybe a mind reader could surpass challenges in a town since he knows what everyone thinkgs, etc) -- people complaining that they can do stuff i can't do, etc. If your players style doesn't care about who does the most damage or what others can do, and they play their choice race/class for other reasons; then ANY race/class combination is acceptable with no drawbacks on gameplay (since a drawback in your game, may not be in mine and vice versa).
I say try it and see if they like it.
Sanjay
not superiority but the style makes all the difference in the world.
Thank goodness style doesn't enter into the equation.
If your players, on the other hand, stopped caring about how they can get a mechanical benefit for every little flavor ability in their race description, then any race/class would be playable with no drawbacks on gameplay.Style frequently hinders balance, but balance never hinders style.
My players rejected 4e (so we went back to our homebrew game system, but added what they liked from 4e) due to some of it's most important balance changes....namely the races one really pissed them off. The class changes as well but the racial ones i think were worst for them.
They want races to be totally different. Yes, you may find it unbalanced, but to what end? Do your players sit there and try and see who does the most damage, etc? We don't have issues of "his character can do this, why can't mine". Everyone does what they can, and smart players can do lots of stuff regardless of the situation.
In a thread about something like this, discussing different editions,etc, i gave an example that a group of players who play because they want to experience the game world through a totally different 'set of eyes' so to speak, 4e doesn't work well. A half orc vs a minotaur for example aren't that different in 4e (yes, some feats,etc can make them different BUT take a thoradorian minotaur frm 3.5e dragonlance vs a half orc vs goliath vs a human, etc). the differences are MUCH bigger regardless of feats, skills, powers, etc.
Some players WANT those differences regardless of anything else and they don't mind.
I've had parties with a a hatchling dragon, a half giant, a kender, several wizards, etc all in the same party (a mega planescape game) and guess what? it had some of the best roleplaying, the best overall adventure (in termsof the players exploring and doing stuff) i've ever DM'ed or been part of. No one cared that hte half giant destroyed anything it attacked, or tha thte dragon could fly, etc. Most of the sessions were driven by the kender doing something stupid and everyone else chasing after him and ending up part of something bigger. OR the non kenders doing something and everyone just kinda falling into their place in that adventure.
Overall, the uniqueness in that party (12 players) opened up so much more adventure possibilities without me (DM) having to actually do anything.
This, is what I find lacking in 4E. It's why i say, i think groups should try whatever they want (flight, etc) and see if they can handle it. If they can, it will expand their game horizons alot more IMHO...
It may not be better for everyone; that is fine, but it may bebetter for you
Sanjay
I'll repeat: style frequently hinders balance, but balance never hinders style. To expound: if you find that balance hinders your style, then that speaks to an issue with your level of creativity (specifically, the lack thereof). If you think that reducing at-will flight to an encounter power somehow limits your ability to roleplay an aarakocra, then you are not trying hard enough (or perhaps, at all).
Your implication that you somehow automagically have morebetter roleplay because you have no concern for balance is amusing, though.
The difference is still there.
A better example might be that race...no idea what it is called....in 2e it was like a squirrel? do you know it? 1.5 feet tall or so. Literally, a walking squirrel.
Let's say they tried to translate that to 4e. THey would make it larger, probably get rid of it's ability to climb almost perfectly in regular trees, etc. And then, since it's larger, raise it's damage to more in line with dwarves or halflings.
Question; is it still a squirrel? I would argue no.
Yes, it's similar in ways and yes, you can imagine yourself that you are the squirrel man, etc but the 2 are NOT the same.
One of them has all the limits of what we would expect from a squirrel (not very strong, easily injured, etc) BUT at the same time has teh full benefits as well (climbing, very fast, sneak around since they can hide easily).
What I am saying is that some players like that full difference and if your players do, then that is where 4e falls flat. You can imagine, in the above example that your dwarf or halfling sized squirrel is a squirrel, until you try and walk on some thin little branch, and it breaks and you fall. Or you try and fit into a 6 inch wide hole and can't.
But what if your players WANT that full experience in every possible way? That is the error i made when I changed our game to 4e. Our players did NOT like the 4e experience since what they cherished....the 100% differences between everyone is what made it fun for them, since every campaign they've ever played in, they always became something totally different each time and experienced it how they wanted....
Combat is more of a minor speedbump in our games, that the experience overall is what drives my players. Hence, the exact balance of some games isn't to their liking. It doesn't offer certain thigns they want. However, 3.5e, 2e also didn't offer certain things; hence we had to slowly over time homebrew a system that worked for us.
Neither style is better or worse, but the style of players determined what game is better for them...
Same reason why some prefer StarCraft/Warcraft than Age of Empires. Both are RTS games but the gameplay experience differs greatly in the 2...You can't say one is better than the other, since in a way, i would say they are made for different audiences. You can play both in a similar way (to a certain degree), but it's not the same even then.
Sorry if I sounded insulting; my example didn't mean too...
Sanjay
morebetter
You're awesome, FlashbackJon!
Sorry if I sounded insulting; my example didn't mean too...
Yes, I must apologize for the snarkiness of my replies. I can typically glean intent, but was, for whatever reason, ignoring it.
You can't say one is better than the other, since in a way, i would say they are made for different audiences. You can play both in a similar way (to a certain degree), but it's not the same even then.
This I completely agree with. I still feel that balance will not interfere with roleplay or even the narrative of game actions (as in the squirrel examples), but that could just be how our styles differ.
Aarakocra
Racial Traits Average Height: 5’1”-5’6” Average Weight: 80-120lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity Size: Medium Speed: 5 squares Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, Auran Skill Bonus: +2 Nature, +2 Perception Feather Fall: You gain a +5 racial bonus to Acrobatics checks to reduce falling damage. Death from Above: Whenever you are elevated at least 10 feet higher than a creature, you gain a +2 racial bonus to damage rolls against that creature. Increase to +4 at 11th level, +6 at 21st level. Feathered Flyby : You can use Avian Flight as an encounter power.
Avian Flight Encounter Move Action Personal Effect: Fly 8 squares. If you don’t end your move on solid ground, you float to the ground without taking falling damage.
Aarakocra
Racial TraitsAverage Height: 4’5”-5’5”Average Weight: 60-120 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma or Wisdom
Size: MediumSpeed: 5 squares, Fly 6
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, AarakocraSkill Bonus: +2 Acrobatics, +2 Athletics, +2 PerceptionMigratory Flight: You gain overland flight 10. You can take a move action to use overland flight only if you have taken no actions this turn, except free actions or move actions using overland flight. You can then take only these actions until the start of your next turn.
Clumsy on the Ground: If you end your turn or make an attack while on a square that touches solid ground, you are considered to be grounded. While grounded, you gain a -2 penalty to all attack rolls and defenses.
Racial Traits:
Average Height: 7’0”-8’0”
Average Weight: 80-100lbs
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom or Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 5 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Aarakocra, Common
Skill Bonus: +2 Perception, +2 Nature
Aarakocra weapon proficiency: You are proficient in all simple and martial spears.
Claws: Aarakocra may use unarmed attacks with a +3 proficiency bonus doing 1d6 damage. Aarakocra unarmed attacks count as light blades.
Versatile limbs: An aarakocra may perform fine manipulations with both its hands and feet, though it may not use its feet while walking or hands while flying.
Aarakocra Flight: When you are not bloodied, you gain Overland Flight 12. You also have the aarakocra flight power.
Wing Buffet: You gain the wing buffet power.
Aarakocra Flight Aarakocra racial power
Encounter
Minor Action: You gain a fly speed of 6 until the end of your next turn.
Special: This power may not be used when bloodied.
Wing Buffet Aarakocra racial power
Encounter
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: Two creatures
Effect: Push the target one square.
Regardless, I do NOT want the aarakocra to have an once-per-encounter-only flight, or overland-only flight. I want it to have some sort of actual flight on all the time as its only racial ability. Since my design for aarakocra doesn't have any of the other bonuses the small races such as halflings or gnomes possess, the associated penalty is in turn more limited. I went ahead and made the penalty for being a clumsy grounded aarakocra PC half as harsh as a monster with the same penalty (clumsy grounded is normally a -4 penalty to all attacks and defenses).
Oh please no, i'm sorry but the game has way too many Dex, Wis races out there (Elf, Thri-Kreen, RC Shifter, Gitzerai, and Wilden) why not Dex, Int or something else, really i don't have enough exsperiance with these guys to know what else would fit.
This is, unfortunately, the best fit I can think of (I'm as annoyed by another Dex/Wis as the next guy). The fluff states quick and weak (high Dex, low Str and Con in the old books), they shy away from arcane, but they make excellent ranged psionic warriors (+1 for Cha or Int, but both have a Wis-secondary option), elemental clerics (+1 for Wis, regardless of whether this is now shaman or stays "cleric"), and druids (another +1 for Wis).
I understand WotC has shied away from penalties. They have not, however, completely eliminated them. See: Small races. This is why I made the aarakocra racial penalty quite specific and something that will come up rarely (i.e. it will only come up if indoors in a 1-square high area, if knocked down, or if forced to attack from a ground-adjacent square due to good tactical positioning or forced movement.
Regardless, I do NOT want the aarakocra to have an once-per-encounter-only flight, or overland-only flight. I want it to have some sort of actual flight on all the time as its only racial ability. Since my design for aarakocra doesn't have any of the other bonuses the small races such as halflings or gnomes possess, the associated penalty is in turn more limited. I went ahead and made the penalty for being a clumsy grounded aarakocra PC half as harsh as a monster with the same penalty (clumsy grounded is normally a -4 penalty to all attacks and defenses).
As you've written it, Aarakocra don't have the ability to hover. They're forced to move constantly, possibly provoking attacks of opportunity and precluding shifting. That might slightly balance things though. The real problem is an Aarakocra who can fly constantly without an altitude cap can just fly 6 squares above the battlefield and use ranged attacks all day long. They're immune to a lot of attacks, essentially, though possibly a big ranged target.
I'm not sure that its balanced, but tying flight to being unbloodied gives flight some major risks. Giving overland flight also lets them fly at will, but restricts them from flying in combat situations, which basically balances things out. Making actual flight their racial power gives them eough strength to fly and fight for two rounds, which is a decent chunk of time; overland flight is still available in combat if they need to get somewhere, just not constantly. Feats could boost flight during Heroic, while a second feat (possibly given by racial paragon paths) can upgrade flight later.
I do like the idea of just giving them a simple fly speed though, and keeping an Aarakocra airborn most of the time makes them more similar to the 2nd edition race. But a Ranger or Seeker Aarakocra could just shoot from above all day long at minimal risk, since bows have such a massive range. A good DM could balance things out with well-designed encounters, but they might be a lot of work and a major selling point for 4e in my mind is less work for the DM.
As you've written it, Aarakocra don't have the ability to hover. They're forced to move constantly, possibly provoking attacks of opportunity and precluding shifting. That might slightly balance things though. The real problem is an Aarakocra who can fly constantly without an altitude cap can just fly 6 squares above the battlefield and use ranged attacks all day long. They're immune to a lot of attacks, essentially, though possibly a big ranged target.
No hovering is by design, to make sure they provoke and have to move about. I figured hover would be a paragon level feat or PP feature.
A ranged character flying above the battlefield is no better or worse, in my experience, than an eladrin that teleports atop a difficult to climb elevation, or, worse, a ranger that stands 30-40 squares away in open spaces (or as far as possible otherwise). Moreover, it gives them a severe risk: If you are knocked prone, you crash, and are highly likely to take sizable damage. 6 squares? That's 3d10 if you are knocked prone. If you are slid 6, suddenly you are -2 to attack and defenses as you are adjacent to the ground. Hell, you are slid, pushed or pulled 3 squares down to a raised elevation that is 3 squares high, and suddenly you are -2 to all attacks and defenses.
Plus, as you point out, they are a huge target, easily hit by a multitude of ranged attacks without benefitting from cover, etc. If they want to fly about and be all-but immune to melee combatants, they are going to be THE prime target for ALL of the enemies with ranged attacks.
I did, in fact, think this through. ;)
I'm not sure that its balanced, but tying flight to being unbloodied gives flight some major risks. Giving overland flight also lets them fly at will, but restricts them from flying in combat situations, which basically balances things out. Making actual flight their racial power gives them eough strength to fly and fight for two rounds, which is a decent chunk of time; overland flight is still available in combat if they need to get somewhere, just not constantly. Feats could boost flight during Heroic, while a second feat (possibly given by racial paragon paths) can upgrade flight later.
I do like the idea of just giving them a simple fly speed though, and keeping an Aarakocra airborn most of the time makes them more similar to the 2nd edition race. But a Ranger or Seeker Aarakocra could just shoot from above all day long at minimal risk, since bows have such a massive range. A good DM could balance things out with well-designed encounters, but they might be a lot of work and a major selling point for 4e in my mind is less work for the DM.
Rangers and Seekers can already shoot from enormous distances and be incredibly safe unless the DM decides otherwise. They do so without taking the risk of huge damage and attack/defense penalties due to knocking prone or forced movement. At paragon, if they're an elf, they can do so while constantly using the RUN action without taking a to-hit penalty. Combine that with a 20/40 or 25/50 range, and those types of characters are already incredibly frustrating for DMs.
This, to me, is more in line with a watersoul genasi, who is able to swim about in deep water features without breathing, pop up to attack as necessary, etc. They, too, are considerably safer from melee combatants, especially if ranged-centric characters.
Just as small characters take a penalty to maximum possible damage, automatically, all the time, if they are weapon wielders, plus a lot of the nifty riders available for two-handed weapons (lots of high crit and brutal options there, in addition to the damage), the above aarakocra have a sacrifice in exchange for, granted, a higher payoff. Thus, the total lack of other racial features. Those small characters, in exchange for the damage penalty, as a bonus can walk through small spaces without hinderance, and squeeze through tiny spaces.
Just as small characters take a penalty to maximum possible damage, automatically, all the time, if they are weapon wielders, plus a lot of the nifty riders available for two-handed weapons (lots of high crit and brutal options there, in addition to the damage), the above aarakocra have a sacrifice in exchange for, granted, a higher payoff. Thus, the total lack of other racial features.
I see you point. If you make their flight related to being bloodied, you free yourself from having to constantly throw certain types of control at the party though. Granted, those aren't always uncommon, but tying flight to being unbloodied means every encounter (at least in Heroic) has a chance to take an aarakocra down. That might be enough of a balance to ditch the clumbsy grounded penalty, which is my only substantial beef with your design.
Here's what it might look like if we go halfsies on this one: Reducing their base speed forces them to rely on flight a bit more. I'm giving them a flying charge feature, which gives melee characters an incentive to stick close to the enemies, and a hover racial power so they have an option so they have a racial power which can be modified. Their racial could be modified to let them shift before or during flight, etc. I still went Dex, Wis/Int because I feel they're better as intuitive and cunning, rather than a force of personality. There is still a strange problem of armor. If you don't restrict flight to light armor you've got the potential of having a full-plate and shield Aarakocra flying around the battlefield. Kinda silly, but Aarakocra should still be able to be fighters and warlords.
Racial Traits:
Average Height: 6’4”-7’10”
Average Weight: 75-110lbs
Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom or Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 4 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Aarakocra, Common
Skill Bonus: +2 Perception, +2 Nature
Aarakocra weapon proficiency: You are proficient in all simple and martial spears.
Diving Charge: When you charge while flying, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls.
Aarakocra Flight: When you are not bloodied, you gain Flight 6 and Overland Flight 12.
Winged Skill: You gain the winged skill power.
Winged Skill Aarakocra racial power
Encounter
Minor Action
Effect: You gain the ability to hover until the beginning of your next turn.
Feats:
Aarakocra weapon training
Prerequisites: Aarakocra
Benefit: You gain proficiency in superior spears, and a +1 bonus to damage when wielding spears.
Paragon of Birds
Prerequisite: Aarakocra, 11th level
Benefits: Your Aarakocra Flight racial trait continues to function when you are bloodied.
I guess that Dex+Wis/Int sounds good
I like the flying while not bloodied thing, especially since this is Dark Sun they wouldn't stay in the air too long, by the way maybe the Aarakocra weapon training should give them taining in one kind of Superior Spear, rather than all of them, i think the land speed should be 5, that way they're not so darn slow on the ground.
I guess that Dex+Wis/Int sounds good
Other racial feats (cf. Dwarven Weapon Training, Githzerai Blade Master) give multiple superior weapons, so I don't think this is an issue. It should probably be more like:
Aarakocra weapon training
Prerequisites: Aarakocra
Benefit: You gain proficiency in all superior spears, and a +2 feat bonus to damage when wielding spears (+3 at 11th level, +4 at 21st level).
As for the slower speed of 4, I figure it helps balance out the ability to fly without being a "penalty" per se. It makes it a bit more dangerous for an Aarakocra to be bloodied, but most of the time they can just hop around the battlefield. It might be problematic with heavy armor though, though heavy armor on an Aarakocra is problematic anyway. The slow speed also open up some potentially interesting racial feats based on whether or not an Aarakocra is bloodied or flying:
Winged Blast
Prerequisite: Aarakocra
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to hit with close blasts when you are not flying.
Buffeting Wings
Prerequisites: Aarakocra
Benefit: When you have the ability to hover from your Winged Skill racial power, you gain combat advantage against all adjacent enemies.
So Aarakocra could just fly above the battle, but they risk falling if they take one or two good hits, and there are incentives for them to be on the ground and up close to enemies.