And they are placing the 4e setting about the same time as the old one, as opposed to trying to advance things 100 years or so to fit things in.
Am I worried? No. I'll houserule and homebrew.
Do I like everything I'v heard? No. No divine power just sucks. Spell casting bards, no half giants. (goliaths are NOT halfgiants) Seriously nerfed thrikreen, blah blah blah. And don't get me started on the art work.... Or the fact that the game takes place AFTER Kalak dies. So again, using Kalak as a sorcerer king require homebrew. I swear, he's the most powerful redshirt in darksun.
Ultimately, I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst. But don't be surprised if/when you see my rant thread, with a laundry list of "wtf were you thinking wotc!" complaints, after DS is released.
As a paying customer and a very long time fan of the setting, I reserve the right to bitch and complain.
Well, now that I think about it, the only thing I'm actually worried about, is the map. The revised map was awesome and included tons and tons AND tons of locations. So if the 4e map doesn't list as much, I'll be pretty steamed as I'll not be using it that much.
Well, now that I think about it, the only thing I'm actually worried about, is the map. The revised map was awesome and included tons and tons AND tons of locations. So if the 4e map doesn't list as much, I'll be pretty steamed as I'll not be using it that much.
Was that the one they did on cloth that came with the boxed set? I think I can say that was the most awesome map ever in a D&D product.
Do I like everything I'v heard? No. No divine power just sucks. Spell casting bards, no half giants. (goliaths are NOT halfgiants) Seriously nerfed thrikreen, blah blah blah.
Yeah, but
Am I worried? No. I'll houserule and homebrew.
So...are you worried or not? Make up your mind. Why bitch and moan about everything they change if you are perfectly happy to houserule everything you don't like?
There was no divine power in the first place, so I don't see what the problem is. The gods of Athas buggered off, remember?
And Goliath's being the new Half-Giants is pretty much just them houseruling it in to place. No different than what you plan to do. HOW DARE THEY DO SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD DO.
Ultimately, I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst. But don't be surprised if/when you see my rant thread, with a laundry list of "wtf were you thinking wotc!" complaints, after DS is released.
There is no pleasing some people.
As a paying customer and a very long time fan of the setting, I reserve the right to bitch and complain.
A smart person would do some research when the book comes out, and decide based on that if they should become a paying customer or not. Your "right to complain" should only be exercised if the product is forced on to you. Which it isn't. If you don't like it, then don't buy it.
As for my opinion on the release, I am enthusiastic about it. From what I've seen and heard, it'll still be all the parts of Dark Sun I loved. If there is anything I disagree with, I'll just houserule it (without a shaking of fists and gnashing of teeth and angry rant on the forums). If anything is left out...well, I have the original source books to draw from. Nothing is lost. I'm just gaining an option to run the campaign world with 4th edition mechanics.
Ultimately, I'm hoping for the best and expecting the worst. But don't be surprised if/when you see my rant thread, with a laundry list of "wtf were you thinking wotc!" complaints, after DS is released.
I won't... As I never underestimate the ability of people to bitch and moan about stuff.
So...are you worried or not?
I guess I wasn't clear about this. I'm worried (not actually the correct word) about the quality of the new map and what will be included. Beyond that, no.
Make up your mind.
I already have as much as I can with the little information we've been given.
Why bitch and moan about everything they change if you are perfectly happy to houserule everything you don't like?
I never said I was "perfectly happy" to houserule. But there isn't much of a choice if I don't like something.
There was no divine power in the first place, so I don't see what the problem is. The gods of Athas buggered off, remember?
Yes, there was. No divine power is something new to 4e and is not a part of the original setting. Divine magic was part of the original incarnations. IMO, there are better alternatives to handling divine power, instead of simply excluding it from the setting.
And Goliath's being the new Half-Giants is pretty much just them houseruling it in to place. No different than what you plan to do. HOW DARE THEY DO SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD DO.
There is a difference between houseruling in general and specific changes. They are NOT doing it the way I would.
There is no pleasing some people.
You might not understand this concept, but it is possible to like certain material without enjoying the entire product.
A smart person would do some research when the book comes out, and decide based on that if they should become a paying customer or not.
You should think before you type. I'v been a paying 4e customer for awhile now, having purchased the vast majority of the released material and I'v been a firm supporter of a 4e darksun since before we even knew it was a possible choice. Wotc loves customers like me, because of the amount of money I spend. My money allows me to complain or compliment as I see fit. And as for opting not to buy it. That's simply not going to happen. Even if only 10% of the finished product is useful to me, I'll still buy it. I bought the FRPG and the FRCG and very little of that is useful to me.
Besides, I'v been waiting awhile for a new edition of darksun.
Please feel free NOT to reply if you wish to continue being a belligerent troll. Thanks.
Even if we can homebrew something within the new DS setting, EACH time they will build a campaign or a new adventure (or scenario) they will build it with the Goliath as Half-giant (per example). We will have to modify the scenario each time such a bad thing happen.
It's not only a complain, but a fear that things like the HG will screw up a big part of the setting because that's what MADE the setting interesting.
Criticism is perfectly fine. The halfgiant is a big deal when it comes to darksun. But, honestly, in my opinion, 4e darksun no longer has half giants. It has goliaths, which are not half giants. At least not by the standards of "this" half giant fan. And the only reason this bothers me and others, is because of how cool and awesome 2e half giants are.
But like all things 4e, I'll get used to it over time.
It would not surprise me at all if they refluff Goliaths to be called "Half-Giants" in the world of Dark Sun and keep the original fluff for half-giants intact.
And if they don't, you can. It isn't a huge deal.
And as per divine magic, I think you're mistaken on them completely ruling it out. They've said multiple times that they won't be flat-out banning things like 2e did. It just gets re-fluffed to fit. Suggestions of what would/would not be appropriate for the setting are as far as they will go. Not to mention Clerics, as I recall drew from elemental powers. Templars and whatnot drew from the power of the sorcerer kings. Druids drew from primal energies (which they do for reals now in 4e anyway). Divinity did not enter in to it. So, I wouldn't be worried about losing an aspect of the campaign that was never there in the first place.
Yes, I was trolling to some extent. But only because I'm sick of "everything wotc does to D&D is a personal attack on me" posts. And I know I'm not the only one who finds these equally belligerent rants worthy of ridicule.
I still hold to my statement that if you don't like what they release, you shouldn't buy it. It is my opinion that if you purchase something knowing full well that you hate 90% of the content you have no right to complain. You don't go to a restaraunt and order food you know don't like, only to shout at the chef because it tasted revolting.
Nothing I've seen or heard so far has indicated that they are swaying too far from the original setting. The only thing drastically changed (in my opinion) is the inclusion of all the new races. And that is just a fact everyone needs to live with. 4e mechanics are based on inclusion and they leave it up to the DM to exclude inappropriate content. They include everything so that everyone can have the option of playing the game their way. It is all modular. This makes everyone happy. Including you if you let it.
As for the tieflings and Drays everywhere... I honestly think they are mistakes. On one hand, I get the whole 'we need everything for PHB1 to work' theory. On the other hand, they *really* do not fit and should have been filed under the 'don't tell' policy along with the gnomes. They might be PHB1, but frankly, its the third setting, and clerics and paladins get sidelined and they are PHB1. Draegoth and his plannar mirror thing was something I always hated. Breaking setting rules just to break setting rules to prove he is super awesome was pretty lame in my bood. Tieflings are based on D&D cosmology, cosmology that Darksun never had outside of the elemental planes. Oh sure, they 'had it, but it was restricted' because TSR was too chicken to just admit it was a totally different setting and nothing outside of the elemental planes existed.
As for arcane bards. If they can sideline an entire power source, they can throw in one extra class while they are at it. Rogues are closer to Athasian bards than PHB2 bards are anyways. Especially considering what a huge freaking deal arcane magic is in the setting. Maybe the book with re-flavor arcane bards as being Veiled Alliance operatives only... Actually, that sounds pretty good. The Veiled Alliance is trying to fight a cultural war against the Sorcerer Kings, and they don't run around announcing themselves to everyone, so just because you've never heard of arcane bards in the original dark sun, and the bards you did hear about had nothing to do with them, doesn't mean they didn't exist (because they did exist, because you knew about veiled alliance spellcasters).
The biggest irritation I have is some of the art. It appears they put goliaths in the artwork instead of half-giants, unless that is supposed to be a tattooed Mul. If your not going to draw half giants, then don't call them half-giants.
It also looks like they went with the 'man in a rubber mantis suit' with the abdomen-less Thri-kreens who wear pants for the art. They are insects, draw them like insects.
There is no need for Dregoth to be anything that he was before, besides perhaps being a sorcerer-king, an undead dragon, and the founder of a new race of creatures created in his (formerly living) image - the dray.
Dray will be...dragonborn, reskinned and refluffed. DDI even just released an article on exchanging the Dragonborn's dragon breath ability with dragon fear, which fits better the children of the Dread King.
They fit rather well, compared to other settings that never had a draconic humanoid race to begin with.
Tieflings are humans corrupted by devils, but they could be humans or elves or whatever corrupted by something else, if you wanted them to be that way. WotC (and you, for that matter) can make them corrupted by anything they/you like. My liking would be corruption by uncompromising, harsh, primal things from deep within the screwed up Feywild of Athas. Like many other creatures living there, the Feywild's inhabitants find Athas to be more hospitable to their home plane and emigrated long ago.
Tieflings are based on D&D cosmology, cosmology that Darksun never had outside of the elemental planes. Oh sure, they 'had it, but it was restricted' because TSR was too chicken to just admit it was a totally different setting and nothing outside of the elemental planes existed.
To be fair, WotC did say they were rewinding to the original boxed set, where Athas had the same old cosmology as the rest of D&D, no restrictions. Page 79 of the Rules Book even stated that fiends from the Outer Planes can travel to Athas at-will, but rarely do so if not summoned. Dragon Kings had a full explanation of the 2nd edition cosmology.
It also looks like they went with the 'man in a rubber mantis suit' with the abdomen-less Thri-kreens who wear pants for the art. They are insects, draw them like insects.
After searching around, most Thri-Kreen art seems to be generally abdomen-less in general, except for a few fan sketches.
Darksun is defined by resources. Either everything is Darksun or nothing is Darksun. Because either all the resources have been used up, or there are still lots of resources to be used up.
If a Sorcerer King could just magic up a hole to somewhere else to suck dry, well... They would. A lot.
As for the Thri-Kreen. They had abdomens for the majority of the 2nd edition art.
To be fair, WotC did say they were rewinding to the original boxed set, where Athas had the same old cosmology as the rest of D&D, no restrictions. Page 79 of the Rules Book even stated that fiends from the Outer Planes can travel to Athas at-will, but rarely do so if not summoned. Dragon Kings had a full explanation of the 2nd edition cosmology.
WotC did confirm, in the very latest Returning to Athas, Part 1 Design and Development DDI exclusive article, that the setting would be a rollback to the first boxed set...but they also confirmed cherry picking upon later developments, like the existence of Dregoth. The Gray and the Black were later developments, and mostly stopped planar travel. This may still be the case.
Criticism is perfectly fine. The halfgiant is a big deal when it comes to darksun. But, honestly, in my opinion, 4e darksun no longer has half giants. It has goliaths, which are not half giants. At least not by the standards of "this" half giant fan. And the only reason this bothers me and others, is because of how cool and awesome 2e half giants are.
But like all things 4e, I'll get used to it over time.
I would say that statwise goliaths make the most perfect half giants you can device in 4th ed.
If you want to keep half giants being Large, having tremendous strength and incredible resiliance, then just remove the option for them to be playable characters and make them Elite Brute monsters.
All in all, AD&D didn't give a damn about being balanced, which can lead to very cool things, but such design isn't compatible with 4th edition. I understand taking a "that's not an Half Giant to me" stance but it's literally a case of "Wizards couldn't have done better". You can't play a class with twice the HP in 4th edition.
I'm sorry but there were no Eladrin and trying to fit them in is one of those situations where no matter what kind of reasoning they come up with it will never fit.
In my opinion here are the races that define Dark Sun: Mul, Human, Beardless Dwarf, 7ft Tall Elves, Thri-Kreen, Half Giants, and Cannibalistic Halflings. In my opinion this should be the starting lineup and anything else should be brought in later. But with Wizards **** "2 book campaign rule" they have to cram in everything like tryign to fit a 12 inch foot into a size 10 shoe. Sure it will fit but it's going to hurt like hell.
To be fair, WotC did say they were rewinding to the original boxed set, where Athas had the same old cosmology as the rest of D&D, no restrictions. Page 79 of the Rules Book even stated that fiends from the Outer Planes can travel to Athas at-will, but rarely do so if not summoned. Dragon Kings had a full explanation of the 2nd edition cosmology.
WotC did confirm, in the very latest Returning to Athas, Part 1 Design and Development DDI exclusive article, that the setting would be a rollback to the first boxed set...but they also confirmed cherry picking upon later developments, like the existence of Dregoth. The Gray and the Black were later developments, and mostly stopped planar travel. This may still be the case.
Yeah, I wouldn't be too surprised to see planar travel heavily restricted instead of outright banned. Also, it occurs to me that under 4e, even sticking to the later Inner Planes alignment would still allow easier access to the Abyss and 2e's Planes of Chaos. While the idea of an Athasian invasion of the Abyss is kind of cool, it's far-fetched enough that I don't feel it would undermine the isolated, resource-poor themes of Dark Sun. The big risk there would be other Prime Material worlds.
Yeah, I wouldn't be too surprised to see planar travel heavily restricted instead of outright banned. Also, it occurs to me that under 4e, even sticking to the later Inner Planes alignment would still allow easier access to the Abyss and 2e's Planes of Chaos. While the idea of an Athasian invasion of the Abyss is kind of cool, it's far-fetched enough that I don't feel it would undermine the isolated, resource-poor themes of Dark Sun. The big risk there would be other Prime Material worlds.
The thing is if you have access to any of the other planes you have access to then go to another plane from that plane.
I could see planar travel having existed at one time but was barred and any demons or devils that were on Athas are stuck there which in turn would be great because they would be very unique.
What I am also worried about is the size of the world and its past history. I actually like Rajaats Cleansing Wars, the halfling origin of the world; I also really like the Kreen Empire, Last Sea and Jagged Cliffs. They are a bit badly managed at times, but work great as a concepte for Barsoom-like vision of Dark Sun.
While I doubt it will happen, I would love the book to actually include some new places beyond Tablelands.
As to planar travel-it was very rare, but did happen on Athas, not only Dregoth but also in adventure modules, DS computer games and hints in the setting. Of course the Githyanki invasion is well over the top, but smaller scale contact is ok with me, provided it happens in extreme violent or dangerous circumstances.
I am not worried.
Dark Sun is my favorite dnd setting by far, so I definately fall into the 'fanboy' catagory.
4E Dark Sun CAN NOT, and WILL NOT, satisfy everyones individual preferences from 2E.
Obviously there MUST be changes.
I see great things, not doom and gloom.
Warlocks get power from Sorceror kings? Awesome!
Half Giants and Thrikreen not stupidly overpowered? Excellent!
Defiling as a constant temptation to arcane wielders? Perfect!
Themes for characters like 'Templar' and 'Gladiator'? Wonderful!
Ok, so I am excited and like what I see.
One could see an iteration of Dark Sun where the Sorcerer-Kings are well aware and capable of planar travel, but after early encounters with archdevils, demon princes, and gods, realized there were limits to their own power. In typical paranoid fashion, they might have locked down all knowledge of the further planes (beyond the Black, Grey, and "Land behind the Winds") as to keep themselves hidden and safe from extraplanar beings. Though they may lust for resources and power, they're drawn more to control - something they can't do if they permit or engage in extraplanar travel.
Conversely, as Athas is a resource-poor backwater with unfriendly locals; who would bother to go there, except on a very limited basis?
That may not be the Dark Sun people are used to, but it's one I wouldn't mind exploring. It's a setting where the apocalypse happened before the world was even finished forming.
It's actually quite old-school Planescapey to have each world with their own "reflection" of the planes (where enterprising DMs can still link Prime Materials at oppposite ends of the infinite expanses of the Outer/Inner/whatever they're called now Planes). Perception guiding reality and all.
Imagine Dark Sun's version of what was once Sigil...
I think the biggest issue with leaving the door open to plannar travel by even a crack is: Players.
If there are rules in the game system for plannar travel, and plannar travel is technically possible in the setting... Then players are going to try and do it, and they are going to get angry when you keep railroading them out of it. Even though you keep railroading them out of it because they want to do something utterly absurd and destructive to the setting (like make a cross plannar water and metal import company).
Other things don't make sense either. If summoned demons and devils show up with metal weapons, then players want to go hunt demons. If summoned demons and devils show up with bone and obsidian weapons, then you've got to explain why that plane and by (extention the other planes) have become just like Athas, or you've got to explain why in divineless setting has its own personal lower planes.
The elemental planes were the only planes really addressed, and they were personal copies just for Athas. They made sense because they were personal copies and they were ruined, just like the planet had been ruined, just like the sun and been ruined. Even if players managed to wheedle their way into one of the elemental planes, they were still 'in Darksun'.
Plannar travel just isn't important to the setting. If it was missing, it shouldn't have an actual impact on anything relevant to the setting.
This is why I hated Dregoth. In my opinion he read like one of the worst cases of a "DM PC". Having a NPC do something that the players would clearly want to do, yet your not going to allow them to do becaue it will break the setting, is just rubbing their noses in how much cooler your NPC is than their characters ever will be.
I'm very sold on the concept of parallel cosmologies where each set is wrapped around the core world as the center. It sidesteps a number of the issues with travel from Athas - Demons don't have metal weapons, as they're a reflection of Athasian fears and reality. Athas' Sigil might be ruined, the Lady a rusted husk of glories long faded (leaving the City States as the only remaing points of light anywhere in the multiverse).
A Dark Sun-centric implementation of the planes would look very different than the core setting or FR or the like. As long as the themes and tone are intact, I'd love to have the tools to find ways to work them in.
This may be me, but I'm reading it as an alternate universe where the Primordials won their war against the Gods. Everything is still there, but it's the crappy version. If there is an Astral Sea, it's the Astral Sea after the Primordials tore it to pieces. Maybe there is no Abyss, because Tharizdun died before he could unleash that bag of horrors. Arcane magic is super destructive because there's no god of magic there to guide it. So it is all Dark Sun, just what we consider Dark Sun might have expanded a little.
This is my reading as well... If 2e boxed set was what happens when you take the "default" 2e universe and Athas it up, the new setting will be what happens when you take the 4e "default" universe and send it through the Athas filter.
Instead of just trying to ditch everything that wasn't in 2e to recreate the 2e setting in full, this allows us to still have fun 4e stuff, but with the Athas flavor we loved.
I think it's a great way to do things, but I know people will complain no matter what.
I think it also works because it doesn't tempt players to be bad. The idea of plannar travel taking them to places where they can get a really awesome free lunch is going to tempt them to try and figure out a way to abuse the system. (edit: and under demonunderpant's idea, lunch wouldn't be free, and they might be expected to give a big tip because of the 'ambiance')
This may be me, but I'm reading it as an alternate universe where the Primordials won their war against the Gods. Everything is still there, but it's the crappy version. If there is an Astral Sea, it's the Astral Sea after the Primordials tore it to pieces. Maybe there is no Abyss, because Tharizdun died before he could unleash that bag of horrors. Arcane magic is super destructive because there's no god of magic there to guide it. So it is all Dark Sun, just what we consider Dark Sun might have expanded a little.
Nicely put!
I don't get this contradictory view.
It's ok to rewrite the setting to include an athasian feywild, eladrin and tieflings. To replace dray and halfgiants with dragonborn and goliaths, but the idea that halforcs and gnomes survived the cleansing war is blasphemy....
Either the 4e version is a completely new setting based on the original or it is a revision/conversion of the original. As a brand new setting based on the original, wotc can include anything and everything in 4e and they can make it work. This way, shardminds, genasi, the feywild and whatever else, have always been part of darksun (4e). But as a revision/conversion of the original material, we will end up with holes that don't make sense.
Why is it ok to add this race but not that one?
Why is it ok to change this part of the history, but not that part?
Why does this new concept fit, but you couldn't make this concept work?
Many times since picking up 4e, I'v seen wotc back themselves into a corner with 4e because of two things. Mechanics and Balance. A lot of people have refused to play 4e and no small amount have walked away from 4e after spending some time with it. Some of us, like myself and some of you have remained loyal customers. And I'v complained very little about 4e. It's a good/fun system.
But when it comes to darksun, the entire reason I'm a fan of D&D in the first place, I can't help but criticize what they're doing and how so many people can defend the changes wotc makes while condemning the ideas that come from non-wotc sources. Is it celeb worship? An idea is good because a wotc employee presented it?
Maybe it is all about balance and mechanics,and fluff is completely mutable. In which case, 4e darksun is not about the setting at all, but instead, all about what new combat options the setting can offer players and DMs. Which makes me a little sad.
I'm trying to see the logic and make sense of things. But it's like a bad acid trip in a fun house filled with mental patients on the wrong medications...
In my mind, the setting is all about survival and contrast with core D&D settings. Tieflings don't violate this (a homeless race sprung from unnatural unions of ages long past? Perfectly Athasian), while Gnomes (magical woodland folk) don't. Sure, you could change Gnomes, but the name and concept are closely tied to sylvan settings and laughing, magical spirit folk. For this reason, I'm wary of Eladrin as well - why change something and "Dark Sunify" it, when more can be gained by eliminating them and creating some stark contrast.
It's not about change or cutting and pasting from the original core set; it's about taking the ideas presented in that core set and applying those ideas to the current state of D&D. It's mirroring the original decisions, but not repeating them outright. Not contradictory in the least. In fact, wanting 2e background with 4e rules seems more contradictory to me; the original Dark Sun made plenty of setting concessions to facilitate the rules. Doing the same for 4e seems more in line than a flat out cut-and-paste job.
I'm trying to see the logic and make sense of things. But it's like a bad acid trip in a fun house filled with mental patients on the wrong medications...
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but-
Personally I think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
If you're looking to restart the world as if you never left it between 2e and 4e, then the changes would be really awkward.
If the end goal, however, is to "reboot" the setting and take a 4e default setting, and run it through an imaginary "Athas Filter" then you have to take each element and ask how or why it should be, or how it would change (based on the major themes of the world.)
Some elements will strike a higher chord with the "importance meter," and can't be changed quite as easily while still keeping the "feel" of Athas intact, while others can be to help a 4e player feel more connected to the setting.
They're not starting with a default 2e world, so a lot of the end result will be different.
For instance, 2e didn't have Goliaths. So for a 2e Darksun, where the idea of a lumbering hulk like race was desired the outcome was half-giants. Since 4e already has a race that with a few cosmetic mods could fit this role, why ditch that element instead of refitting goliaths to play the part? Same with Dragonborn.
For the Feywild, 2e didn't have one to begin with so we have no idea how it could/would have been handled. So the designers seem to be asking, what WOULD happen if the Feywild was a part of Athas. The result is posted in Rich Bakers blog.
It's not really a retcon, just a different filter since because it's a reboot they're not looking for continuity with anything other then the "feel" of the setting.
As for Gnomes, and other "cleansed" races that's a part of the backstory, so changing that would put a big change to the feel of the setting.
(Though I do like the direction they seem to be taking in that instead of saying X doesn't exist, they're saying X only exists if YOU want it to. Something that should be assumed by any gamer, but seems to be lost unless specifically told so by the rules.)
I think that the designers seem to be putting a LOT of thought in doing this setting right. I commend them for that!
Then again, I also liked the new Star Trek movie.
In my mind, the setting is all about survival and contrast with core D&D settings. Tieflings don't violate this (a homeless race sprung from unnatural unions of ages long past? Perfectly Athasian),
I fail to see how tieflings are perfectly athasian, although I have no problem with including them. Also, anything can be perfectly athasian. That's one of the hooks of darksun, is that it gave us a new outlook on the different races and made them "perfectly athasian".
while Gnomes (magical woodland folk) don't.
That makes no sense to me. Elves work fine but gnomes don't. Both are magical woodland folk and the elf is the poster child for tree hugging forest dancing song singers. But that has no meaning in darksun, where the stereotypical elf doesn't exist.
Sure, you could change Gnomes, but the name and concept are closely tied to sylvan settings and laughing, magical spirit folk.
So are elves and they worked fine. Dwarves are closely tied to bearded drunks, but that has nothing to do with athasian dwarves. Darksun breaks D&D stereotypes and would do so with gnomes. (I'd hope)
why change something and "Dark Sunify" it, when more can be gained by eliminating them and creating some stark contrast.
Because that is exactly what darksun does. It takes a race and makes it unique from every other setting.
It's mirroring the original decisions, but not repeating them outright.
I'm not sure I understand this part. Beyond mechanics, I don't get what you mean.
In fact, wanting 2e background with 4e rules seems more contradictory to me;
What are you talking about? I want "DARKSUN" background. The edition has nothing to do with it.
How am I being contradictory by wanting darksun to remain darksun? The crunch can change to meet the requirements of the new system, but the concept and content could stay the same. For instance, divine power could have been included, but it's my assumption that they chose not to support it simply because it was less work, would reduce cost of production (time spent making DP work in the setting) and because at some point, a bunch of people got together and claimed divine magic didn't make sense in the setting.
the original Dark Sun made plenty of setting concessions to facilitate the rules. Doing the same for 4e seems more in line than a flat out cut-and-paste job.
What concessions did 2e darksun make and where is this information coming from. Also, you keep talking about a cut and paste job and I have no idea what that means. Is 4e eberron a cut and paste job, in your opinion?
Maybe you just don't understand what I want or what my point is.
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking but-
That darksun not end up like the transformer movies, or gijoe movie or xmen movies. That they not claim that concept X has no place because it doesn't fit with in the setting, then add in concepts Y and Z by "making them fit.
Personally I think it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
Personally, I want consistency. I want to open up the 4e DS books and feel like I'm reading darksun and not some half baked knock off.
If the end goal, however, is to "reboot" the setting and take a 4e default setting, and run it through an imaginary "Athas Filter" then you have to take each element and ask how or why it should be, or how it would change (based on the major themes of the world.)
Why it should be included is the easiest question to answer. Because including it would be fun.
How to include it is only slightly harder. Since this is a reboot/rewrite of the setting, and it will be
following the 4e guidelines, then "how" something fits into the setting would be a simple matter of creativity. Give it an athasian flavor and don't hold to the 4e "core Points of Light" vision. Like elves or dwarves.
Some elements will strike a higher chord with the "importance meter," and can't be changed quite as easily while still keeping the "feel" of Athas intact, while others can be to help a 4e player feel more connected to the setting.
Again, you can make anything feel athasian when you take it in a different direction than that found in the default points of light material. (core/other setting) Half the folks I'v talked to have no experience with darksun in prior editions, so to them, everything in 4e DS with "feel" like darksun.
You could have gold dragons in 4e darksun and most of them wouldn't notice the difference, just like most of them won't notice divine magic being gone as leaving a very real hole in the setting.
They're not starting with a default 2e world, so a lot of the end result will be different.
No, they're starting with darksun but converting it to 4e. So they can do whatever they want and a good portion of the fans won't notice a difference. Where as someone like me will see the difference. And I'm not against additional content, I'm against removing original content.
For instance, 2e didn't have Goliaths. So for a 2e Darksun, where the idea of a lumbering hulk like race was desired the outcome was half-giants. Since 4e already has a race that with a few cosmetic mods could fit this role, why ditch that element instead of refitting goliaths to play the part? Same with Dragonborn.
Ok, I'll try and clear this up. The moment I read the PHB1, I knew halfgiants would never be in darksun unless we got large race rules. While I will miss true half giants, I like goliaths and they make perfect sense as a substitution. Dragonborn as dray is also a perfect example of how you can take a new race and fit it into darksun, as are tieflings. My issue is that we have four kinds of elf, so adding Dray as its own race wouldn't be a pointless chore, since dray are NOT dragonborn.
And again, I can accept the reskin. We actually have to change most, if not all, of the PoL races to fit darksun.
For the Feywild, 2e didn't have one to begin with so we have no idea how it could/would have been handled. So the designers seem to be asking, what WOULD happen if the Feywild was a part of Athas. The result is posted in Rich Bakers blog.
Yes, this is wotc taking something new and making it fit the setting, yet this doesn't cause fans to shout "kitchen sink!", although, talk about adding certain races or classes and that is exactly what happens and that is the problem. I say add everything we can, but stop taking stuff out. You can't claim that something like divine magic doesn't belong and then add something that doesn't belong to the setting, like a magical fey world filled with jungle, lakes, and fey creatures and THEN claim that gnomes are completely wiped out.
So now we rewrite that the champions went into the feywild to kill their assigned race, or all gnomes fled the feywild. What about the shadowfell? How does this impact darksuns cosmology? What changes will be done? I keep getting the feeling that people accept the changes because "wotc said so". I'm actually very accepting of a lot of the new additions, even though I use them as examples. What I do not accept is the lost of divine magic in the setting. I'll never accept that.
As for Gnomes, and other "cleansed" races that's a part of the backstory, so changing that would put a big change to the feel of the setting.
They're already changing the backstory by adding things like the feywild, tieflings and removing divine magic. They will be rewriting everything they need to, in order to make it fit. Cleansing war survivors would not change the feel of the setting. It's already changed, unless you're completely new to darksun.
(Though I do like the direction they seem to be taking in that instead of saying X doesn't exist, they're saying X only exists if YOU want it to. Something that should be assumed by any gamer, but seems to be lost unless specifically told so by the rules.)
Ok, THIS is where I hope you are correct. But when I read stuff like "darksun has no divine magic" I get bent. Darksun always did before, it's part of the "feel" of the setting. So I hope they take an eberron approach to 4e DS. (everything in D&D has a place) That way, it will reduce the amount of work DMs and players have to do to include things, like divine magic...
I think that the designers seem to be putting a LOT of thought in doing this setting right. I commend them for that!
While I want to agree and somewhat do, I can't help but go back to the same broken record. Divine magic, nerfed thrikreen and defiling magic that focuses on humanoid life force instead of plant life force.
But again, I can accept a "kitchen sink" setting far easier than I can accept them giving darksun the "marvel ultimates" treatment. Which simply makes me shudder. As you can tell, I loved darksun. To me, it IS D&D and while I enjoy other settings and the core D&D, none of that sold me on the hobby. This is why I'm so critical. Because darksun Rulez Jo Face Off!
Some people get crazy over their favorite sports team, or their favorite band/singer/actor. I get worked up over my favorite novels and game setting. I'm a fan of the setting, not who holds the license. Although I don't hate wotc. They're ok, if frustrating.
I fail to see how tieflings are perfectly athasian, although I have no problem with including them. Also, anything can be perfectly athasian. That's one of the hooks of darksun, is that it gave us a new outlook on the different races and made them "perfectly athasian".
That makes no sense to me. Elves work fine but gnomes don't. Both are magical woodland folk and the elf is the poster child for tree hugging forest dancing song singers. But that has no meaning in darksun, where the stereotypical elf doesn't exist.
I think the comment about Tieflings being perfectly Athasian is that they almost fit exactly as is. Their core background history was that they were the product of a destroyed empire whose leaders had intermingled with devils in a mad pursuit of arcane power.
Plus did you see the artwork from the Encounters Season 2 premades? That Tiefling Psion in the Lawrence of Arabia garb looks just awesome. They're a race that gets bonuses versus weak and bloodied creatures, and has natural fire resistance. If that's not suited for thriving in the hot desert struggle, I don't know what is.
As for gnomes, eh I don't know. I think the difference between elves and gnomes is the built in arcane affinity that gnomes are supposed to have. Yeah, that could be changed and I can think of a lot of ways to make them really fierce and interesting, but in the end I suppose I don't really want to.
Part of what makes traditional gnomes charming is the trickster personality associated with the little guys, and I'm not sure I could personally justify the motivation of knocking people off their high horses when everyone is already scrambling in the blood and sand for petty survival.
While I want to agree and somewhat do, I can't help but go back to the same broken record. Divine magic, nerfed thrikreen and defiling magic that focuses on humanoid life force instead of plant life force.
I find it quite humorous that the very pieces that have some people up in arms are the things that have me jazzed.
I'm very much looking forward to DS4E but realise chnages have to be made.
Primal far more suits the elemental worship than divine does. 2E never had primal and druids were divine caster and shared quite a few spells with clerics. The original DS completely banned paladins - it is not much of a stretch to remove divine and it makes sense - why rework divine classes if they are going to fit the same niche as primal classes.
Original half-giants were never going to make it in. Minotaurs lost oversized weapons because they were overpowered. A race with oversized weapons AND reach? Broken beyond description. Goliaths fit the bill of a large, tough, strong race well. Just make INT the dump stat and RP their shifting alignments.
Thri-kreen needed downgrading as well - otherwise they'd only be an NPC race. Being able to wield four weapons would have no benefit the way 4E works, so a racial power to simulate this works.
I'll wait until the books come out to read them but I will be doing some houserules. Various races will be dead and gone; orcs, goblins, gnomes, minotaurs, shardminds, warforged. Dragonborn as Dray? Maybe, but only with dragonfear instead of dragonbreath. I like the idea behind the Eladrin but still unsure wetehr they will get used. If they do, they will be cautious and isolationist to the point of xenophobia, whose only interaction with the outside world would be to hunt down and execute arcanists. Of course the SKs will have spread storied of how the evil djinn come out of nowhere and murder random people for no reason. They may be doing what is right but they are completely misunderstood.
Maybe you just don't understand what I want or what my point is.
Nor you, mine. I think we're talking completely different things here; datapoints and specifics versus theme and general context. I gather you really do care that the details are the same as the original, as you see the tone and theme intrinsically tied to those specific pieces. I don't care about the details much; if the intangibles - the general feel, the themes and ideas - match the original, then I'm good (and find excitement in exploring something both new and familiar).
I take back what I said about gnomes too - make them slaves of the remaining Eladrin, extinct but for the mercy of their masters - and I'm happy. Toss in a strong bitter and malicious streak and you've got a reimagining in the spirit of the original release.
I think that some of the mechanical changes that are being made, such as templar power being arcane and elemental priest channeling primal spirit power, suit the setting better a lot better.
I also really like that the setting goes back to the original box set with a few inclusions of some later stuff.
One of the things I liked about the original was that the history of the world was a complete mystery and the fact that they did the Dark Sun equivalent of revealing the secret of the day of mourning (to make a cross setting reference ) miffed me somewhat.
So I am glad that the world is returning to that time and the whole Rajaat deal is only a possible history. One I shall personally never use.
The fact that kalak is now deposed at the beginning of the default campaign start also makes a lot more sense. In the original he was about to be deposed, a revolution was immanent.
I think thats a story that people will play through once, having the baseline for most adventures starting after the fact makes more sense to me.
The only change I'm leery about are the elemental priests. To me, elemental worship is brought about by a 2E limitation - that of parties needing clerics. Even though Athas has no true gods, they needed someone that could heal. Thus the elemental priests were put in. One of 4E's strong points is the fact that non-divine parties can perform just as well as parties that have one, and I wouldn't have been bothered if they removed the elemental priests altogether.
They decided to include the elemental worship, and that made a bunch of people happy. I don't like it myself, and their treatment of it makes me raise an eyebrow. Primal? Really? Personally, I would rather just include 4 "elemental deites" that are quiet. There's an Earth, Sea, and Sun domain in Divine Power, and that could work IMO.
The bottom line is, I don't like all the changes, but I'm not going to nerd-rage over it either. Maybe it's because I only have minor complaints. But I think it's more Dark Sun is alive and well. Tons of fans who never even heard of DS before are talking about it in their blogs, people want to finally try out 4E just to play in Athas again, and hardcore fans still get to share their DS stories with new people.
athas.org did a great job of continually casting Gentle Repose on Dark Sun, and they kept it up long enough for WotC to finally bring on the Raise Dead. Sure, the Raise Dead fumbled a bit and it now has that weird, dimmed gaze, but in the end it's alive and well, and I can't wait to discuss how we'll make the player's lives hell again. >
Or maybe Gnomes did survive in Dark Sun, just no one can tell them apart from halflings :P
That said, a similar problem could be brought up when you have Elves and Eladrin.
I think the problem with Gnomes, is how do you make them different than haflings if they arent magic fairy people from forests?
Or maybe Gnomes did survive in Dark Sun, just no one can tell them apart from halflings :P
That said, a similar problem could be brought up when you have Elves and Eladrin.
About gnomes, that's sort of what I meant when I said their built in arcane talents were a problem.
What they're doing with Eladrin seems to be to strip out the Eladrin's wizardry heritage and make them paragons of psionic study and manipulation. They still live in Fey enclaves, and they still have the greater feel of their culture compared to Elves. But yes, I imagine physically a lot of people would mistake an Eladrin for an Elf, and I also imagine that is solely to the Eladrin's advantage.
What are you talking about? I want "DARKSUN" background. The edition has nothing to do with it.
How am I being contradictory by wanting darksun to remain darksun? The crunch can change to meet the requirements of the new system, but the concept and content could stay the same.
The changes to fit edition rules, and even the slow mutation of the setting over time from its first incarnation, are significant and in some cases were setting-changing. In fact, it isn't hard to see how the original version of the setting is clearly built around the limitations and ideas of 2nd Edition D&D, whose crunch was not altered to fit the setting but whose crunch clearly informed the setting significantly.
For example, before 3E, DarkSun had no halfling or dwarven spellcasters. Classes were limited to specific races and the idea of dwarven mages made some DS fans gnash their teeth in horror and declare the world completely b0rked -- "a betrayal of the vision of Dark Sun".
Defiling also changed significantly between the set's first and second editions, from "you defile when you cast" to "you choose to defile when memorizing or when casting". Even more so when Dark Sun was converted to 3rd Edition rules, when the defiler and preserver classes were combined into one class, and defiling became Feat-based. Also, before 3E, only humans and half-elves could become Advanced Beings.
Another point of interest is that, originally, Rajaat didn't make halflings his champions and chosen people because in 2nd Edition D&D they weren't capable of magic (except illusionism); this was retconned as "Rajaat didn't want to make halflings impure by exposing them to magic" in 3E, where halflings could be wizards.
There are a number of other issues that come up in converting the original Dark Sun, from the 90's, to the 3E version we've had for the last decade. It is a fact of game design that rules heavily influence setting, and when rules are changed they will change a setting. So it is not surprising that a switch to 4E is causing some things to change to bring the setting in-line with the game.
Which brings me to: which "vision" of the "background" of Dark Sun do you refer to? The vision of the first edition of the set, with a mysterious and lost history and rampaging Dragon, or the vision of the second edition, with halfling nature-science and Rajaat and a half-dozen dead SKs?
(PS: for those who are having issues figuring out the difference between an edition of D&D and an edition of a setting, when I speak of first and second edition sets, I am referring literally to the first edition of the setting (the original boxed set) and the second edition of the setting (the second boxed set, expanded and revised, literally called the 2nd Edition boxed set), not to the 1st and 2nd editions of the AD&D rules.)
What I do not accept is the lost of divine magic in the setting. I'll never accept that.
Because there were so many divine spell-casters NOT drawing their energy from the elemental planes running around Dark Sun, which had no gods anyways to give out divine magic...so not including divine magic that never existed and making all divine spellcasters primal casters instead totally breaks the setting and is somehow thus unacceptable..?
(Also, again: "nerfed thri-kreen"...yes, UN-breaking them somehow nerfs them. This has been brought up before. Many times.)
What they're doing with Eladrin seems to be to strip out the Eladrin's wizardry heritage and make them paragons of psionic study and manipulation.
The impression I got from the article was more along the lines of "the Eladrin of Athas used to be like your typical Eladrin, but realized that arcane powers were defiling the world and turned to psionics instead."
I think that can be one of the most compelling aspects of Dark Sun, especially at higher levels if you want to tie in lore from other settings. Two cultures with similar origins, but one of them was subjected to, well, Athasian reality. Like Mirror Spock discovering that there's a universe where a peace-loving Federation flourished instead of the Terran Empire. Or any number of stories where one character wonders how they might have turned out compared to another if they'd been in their situation.
So you can spend your paragon path to get some more mechanical half giant flavor.
Not sure if there are going to be any Paragon Paths in the book, but maybe we'll see a Thri-Kreen racial paragon path to give them back their natural abilities without making them overpowered.
Even in the first version they made choices based off of the games rules at the time. The dark sun designers for the first boxed set did not want clerics in the setting as there were no gods but in 2E you need clerics as without them there is no healing and the game falls apart
4E no longer needs clerics as the leader role supplants the need for them. So removing divine completely is more in the flavor of dark sun than not.
So I am pleasentry surprised by some of what I am hearing. I mean no divine casters...that is wonderful news and makes sense when you look at 4th ed and the power souces...the old elemental priest work better as primal power souce characters in my opinions.
The way they are dealing with Defiling magic is better than I expect. And weapon breakage. Sure I would have them done things slightly differently...but I can live with these.
I am not totaly sold on the Dray = Dragonborn thing...but I don't have to agree with anything and can change things I don't like.
But I am wondering from a marketing stand point if this a good move. I mean if people are just playing in DS...suddenly they don't need Divine Power 1..2 or x. I am curious why they decided now to do this?
I am curious why they decided now to do this?
Because they can. The first two settings, Forgotten Realms and Eberron, were exercises in presenting kitchen sink settings that are well known. The third setting was chosen in order to show how you can change things up using 4E by using some things and not using others. One of the reasons Dark Sun was chosen as a setting is because it is quite different from other settings. Later this year we will see a new Gamma World using 4E and next year could be a brand new setting different from anything else we have seen (maybe something like Dragonstar; hint, hint). We are now getting into the days where the designers want to see where they can take the game.
That being said, the designers are only omitting certain aspects, not outright saying you can not use them. If you want gnomes, warforged or divine characters in your Dark Sun game, there is no reason you can not include them. While you may want to play with the fluff, the mechanics of such things are already balanced unlike in the previous incarnation of the setting. Thus you can have die hards running the game true to the original setting and others that wish to include everything with little fear of throwing off the balance of things if that is a concern. The broader the audience they can get, the more viable the game will be.
Which brings me to: which "vision" of the "background" of Dark Sun do you refer to? The vision of the first edition of the set, with a mysterious and lost history and rampaging Dragon, or the vision of the second edition, with halfling nature-science and Rajaat and a half-dozen dead SKs?
This doesn't need to be so definitive.
I am ok with Kalak being deposed, you need a city that is very different from the rest and a location where there is more trouble and both freedom present-source of intrigue, competing interests from other SK and place where powerful Defilers,Psions can go to establish their power
I wouldn't like erasing Rajaat, Cleansing Wars from history-they do feel very Athasian to me and are what makes the world unique-almost everywhere else we have the "goodfeel" fantasy of races working happily together, instead of obvious danger of race-driven xenocide.
As to ancient halfling nature masters-that is quite ok with me as well, and fits into Barsoomian climate of the setting.
But Goliaths as half-giants-meh, that doesn't feel right. Half-Giants were cool because they were just that Half-Giants and I didn't mind them so powerfull, if you have players mature enough it doesn't break the game, plust they have many flaws in themselves.
As to Thri-Kreen-I like them better as NPC than PC's, but they couldn't wear armour, which seriously nerfed them already.
Oh and btw-people complaining about Kreen Empire from 2ed. It actually was hinted in 1ed already
I think the problem with Gnomes, is how do you make them different than haflings if they arent magic fairy people from forests?
Or maybe Gnomes did survive in Dark Sun, just no one can tell them apart from halflings :P
That said, a similar problem could be brought up when you have Elves and Eladrin.
Gnomes????? Nooooooo!
Nibenay, Gallard bane of gnomes, killed them all!!! Seeing a product with them inside would be a insult. An utter insult.
I think the problem with Gnomes, is how do you make them different than haflings if they arent magic fairy people from forests?
Or maybe Gnomes did survive in Dark Sun, just no one can tell them apart from halflings :P
That said, a similar problem could be brought up when you have Elves and Eladrin.
Gnomes????? Nooooooo!
Nibenay, Gallard bane of gnomes, killed them all!!! Seeing a product with them inside would be a insult. An utter insult.
It would not be that bad...I would ignore them...or just have Nibenay put on some gnome stomping boots ans go for a walk. ;)
I really don't see the problem with Goliaths being Half Giants. Balance is always meant to take the first spot when mechanics are outlined. If you feel your game would work better with Large Half Giants, you can easily design your own.
In fact, despite Wizard's understandable reluctance, creating ECL races is actually a LOT easier in 4th edition than it was in 3rd edition. Consi
Homebrew Half Giants will be certainly provided for games. Personally, I'm thorn between using Goliaths or using an homebrew version that looks more or less like this:
Half Giant
ECL1: Half Giants possess exceptional physical characteristics that put them above most other races in terms of pure power; as such, you can only create an Half Giant starting from level 2. Whenever you create an Half Giant character, subtract 1 from the desired target level before applying class levels (e.g. when creating a lvl 8 Half Giant fighter, add 7 levels of Fighter then apply the Half Giant racial abilities).
When determining any statistic that includes the character level or a fraction of it (like Defenses or Attack Bonuses) always use the Character's class levels as the character's overall level, and never include the Half Giant racial level.
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 10" - 12"
Average Weight: 800 - 1500 lb.
Ability Scores: +4 Strength; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom - Half Giants are unnaturally large and strong; while not particularly fast or bright, they tend to be resiliant and adaptive, with a keen self-preservation instinct.
Size: medium* (* see Giant Blood)
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, * - * 4th ed consistency would suggest allowing Half Giant players to pick a secod language of their choice, however due to the nature of the race I suggest to either force them to pick Giant or assign them an unique Half Giant language.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Insight - Half Giants are exceptionally sturdy and resiliant, but also suspicious and always on guard.
Unstoppable: due to the combination of sheer body mass, resistance to pain and sheer force of will, Half Giants are incredibly hard to kill. When assigning the first class level to the Character, increase the initial HP pool by 1/2 (rounded down). Furthermore, whenever the Half Giant gains a Striker or Leader class level, increase the amount of hit points gained by 1; if the Half Giants gains a level as a Defender, increase the hit points gained by 2.
Giant Blood: despite their size, Half Giants aren't mechanically considered Large due to them being still significantly smaller than most 4E large creatures; also, since having lived for so long among Medium sized races, they learned to literally adapt to "fit in". They don't have special needs for lodging (they adapt to sleep curling or simply on the floor), they don't generally need special mounts (most Athasian mounts are stronger than Horses, and you can generally assume the Half Giant player choose or was assigned a particularly sturdy and powerful exemplar; of course DM fiat applies here); despite being uncomfortable, they have long since adapted to sitting on the ground in taverns and modifying armor in order to have it fit.
There are however a few gameplay aspects where their size comes into play:
- Half Giants have a melee reach of 1; they don't possess Threatening Reach capabilities
- whenever Size would be relevant in an Opposed Ability or Skill check against a Medium or Smaller creature, Half Giants are considered Large; when checking against creatures of Large size or bigger, they're still considered Medium
- Giant's Grip: Half Giants generally use the same weapons Medium creatures use; however they can wield any weapon Medium size creatures need two hands to use in one hand. Also, when using a weapon with two hands, they deal 1d4 extra damage.
- Giant's Bulk: Half Giants generally use medium sized shields and armor; however, considering their size, such armor doesn't offer as much protection as it would to a medium sized creature. Shields in particular offer less protection than they do on medium sized counterparts, and shields big enough to cover comparable body surface tend to be exceptionally heavy and unwieldy even considering the Half Giant's brutal strength. As such, Half Giants never gain more than one point of Armor Class and Reflex Defence from Shields (before accounting for magical bonuses).
Encounter Power: due to the huge amount of special characteristics Half Giant possess, they don't have access to an unique encounter racial power.
I'm not completely in love with the design, but I'm doing this in case some of my players shows an untamable hate for the Goliath adaptation, and I don't wanna throw balance out of the window completely.
The rule on shields makes little sense, but I need an offset for the extra HP (or else I'll make Half Giants the ultimate defender, which would hardly break my games, but still), plus I want to push HGs as much as possible towards two hander weapons (something Goliaths did brilliantly).
Once going as far as designing Half Giants to be similar to what they were in 2ed, you essentially need to make them a "bigger, and them bigger yet" race - more hp, more damage, etc. If the difference isn't sensible, you should just play renamed Goliaths (which I probably will, but still). This is the most "balanced" design I came up with so far. In fact, they may as well be underpowered - the ECL rules put them at permanent -1 to defenses, -1 to skills, -1 to attack rolls on non Str based checks; probably the shield rule is punishing for no reason, and it would probably plenty possible to increase the hp bonus to +2/+3 or add an Encounter power of moderate level.
When determining any statistic that includes the character level or a fraction of it (like Defenses or Attack Bonuses) always use the Character's class levels as the character's overall level, and never include the Half Giant racial level.
RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 10" - 12"
Average Weight: 800 - 1500 lb.
Ability Scores: +4 Strength; +2 Constitution or +2 Wisdom - Half Giants are unnaturally large and strong; while not particularly fast or bright, they tend to be resiliant and adaptive, with a keen self-preservation instinct.
Size: medium* (* see Giant Blood)
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common, * - * 4th ed consistency would suggest allowing Half Giant players to pick a secod language of their choice, however due to the nature of the race I suggest to either force them to pick Giant or assign them an unique Half Giant language.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Insight - Half Giants are exceptionally sturdy and resiliant, but also suspicious and always on guard.
Unstoppable: due to the combination of sheer body mass, resistance to pain and sheer force of will, Half Giants are incredibly hard to kill. When assigning the first class level to the Character, increase the initial HP pool by 1/2 (rounded down). Furthermore, whenever the Half Giant gains a Striker or Leader class level, increase the amount of hit points gained by 1; if the Half Giants gains a level as a Defender, increase the hit points gained by 2.
Giant Blood: despite their size, Half Giants aren't mechanically considered Large due to them being still significantly smaller than most 4E large creatures; also, since having lived for so long among Medium sized races, they learned to literally adapt to "fit in". They don't have special needs for lodging (they adapt to sleep curling or simply on the floor), they don't generally need special mounts (most Athasian mounts are stronger than Horses, and you can generally assume the Half Giant player choose or was assigned a particularly sturdy and powerful exemplar; of course DM fiat applies here); despite being uncomfortable, they have long since adapted to sitting on the ground in taverns and modifying armor in order to have it fit.
There are however a few gameplay aspects where their size comes into play:
- Half Giants have a melee reach of 1; they don't possess Threatening Reach capabilities
- whenever Size would be relevant in an Opposed Ability or Skill check against a Medium or Smaller creature, Half Giants are considered Large; when checking against creatures of Large size or bigger, they're still considered Medium
- Giant's Grip: Half Giants generally use the same weapons Medium creatures use; however they can wield any weapon Medium size creatures need two hands to use in one hand. Also, when using a weapon with two hands, they deal 1d4 extra damage.
- Giant's Bulk: Half Giants generally use medium sized shields and armor; however, considering their size, such armor doesn't offer as much protection as it would to a medium sized creature. Shields in particular offer less protection than they do on medium sized counterparts, and shields big enough to cover comparable body surface tend to be exceptionally heavy and unwieldy even considering the Half Giant's brutal strength. As such, Half Giants never gain more than one point of Armor Class and Reflex Defence from Shields (before accounting for magical bonuses).
Encounter Power: due to the huge amount of special characteristics Half Giant possess, they don't have access to an unique encounter racial power.
I'm not completely in love with the design, but I'm doing this in case some of my players shows an untamable hate for the Goliath adaptation, and I don't wanna throw balance out of the window completely.
The rule on shields makes little sense, but I need an offset for the extra HP (or else I'll make Half Giants the ultimate defender, which would hardly break my games, but still), plus I want to push HGs as much as possible towards two hander weapons (something Goliaths did brilliantly).
Once going as far as designing Half Giants to be similar to what they were in 2ed, you essentially need to make them a "bigger, and them bigger yet" race - more hp, more damage, etc. If the difference isn't sensible, you should just play renamed Goliaths (which I probably will, but still). This is the most "balanced" design I came up with so far. In fact, they may as well be underpowered - the ECL rules put them at permanent -1 to defenses, -1 to skills, -1 to attack rolls on non Str based checks; probably the shield rule is punishing for no reason, and it would probably plenty possible to increase the hp bonus to +2/+3 or add an Encounter power of moderate level.
I think the problem with Gnomes, is how do you make them different than haflings if they arent magic fairy people from forests?
Or maybe Gnomes did survive in Dark Sun, just no one can tell them apart from halflings :P
That said, a similar problem could be brought up when you have Elves and Eladrin.
Gnomes????? Nooooooo!
Nibenay, Gallard bane of gnomes, killed them all!!! Seeing a product with them inside would be a insult. An utter insult.
It would not be that bad...I would ignore them...or just have Nibenay put on some gnome stomping boots ans go for a walk. ;)
Why...of course the gnomes survived wastelander. You probably heard tales about their magical cities full of wonders and corridors of illusions...Indeed one city exists far to the South with treasures for the brave....
Then after four months of trel and Athas dangers defeated the adventurers discover the gnomes are all mad and hate driven burning undead who chain captives to a Throne of Blood with magical needles and syringes that attempts to drain living things of life so that a gnome can experience being alive for one minute.
That's wastlands for ya.