I would like a little help picking a good triology of novels, I enjoy stories with evil characters a lot. Thanks.
though personally, i truly enjoy re-reading the original "Wanderer's Journal" from the 1991 boxed set whenever i want a direct fix of of Athas.
The newest Dark Sun novel out, City Under the Sand by Jeff Mariotte, was ok. I think it did a good job of showcasing the 4th edition setting, but there was something about the writing I couldn't put my finger on at first. I knew I was uneasy at the chapter transitions...in some cases so much so that I set the book down. Then I finally realized that essentially without fail, the chapters end with Horatio Caine-style CSI:Miami-isms. Some examples (carefully chosen and in some cases edited so as to not involve any spoilers).
- "XYZ awaits!" she said. "So it does," said the guy. "Or so we hope." WHHHHAAAAAAAAAA
- "One day, Bob. Not today, but one day. Now, get out of the doorway. I've something to deliver." WHHHAAAAAAAAA
- "No more for today," she said, and started to close the door, but stopped with a gasp. "One more," a gravelly voice from outside declared. "He will see me." WHOOOOOO ARE YOU? WHO, WHO...WHO, WHO
- "Do we know someone like that?" "I know of someone," he said. His eyes had taken on a peculiar cast. "I do indeed..." OOOOH I REALLY WANNA KNOW!
I mean, come on! That last one even practically has him putting on his sunglasses! Here's a little something for comparison:
What makes it so terribly noticeable is actually another grievance I have... the use of named AND Roman-enumerated chapters with numbered sub-chapters that are all like 3 pages long! WHY?!
As soon as you start to get into a groove the author pokes you in the eye and yells, "AAAARRGGH!! YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WITH ANOTHER COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT GROUP OF PEOPLE HUNDREDS OF MILES AWAY...WHO ARE ALSO IN THE FEATURELESS DESERT!!!"
"Okay, okay, author. Please...what's going on with them?" "Oh, you know, yada yada yada, they're pretty thirsty and BACK TO THE FIRST GROUP!! THEY ARE THE IMPORTANT ONES! DON'T YOU KNOW THAT?!"
No real spoilers here other than a couple of chapter titles. The rest is basically a rant about how tiny some of these chapters are.
I am not exaggerating in the least about the following: IV: Night Terrors begins on pg.57. As with all the major chapters, there is no text on that page other than the Roman numeral and title. IV1 begins on pg.58 and ends mid-way down pg.60. IV2 runs from pg.60 to halfway down pg.63. The rest of that page is blank and pg.64 is blank but for V: Summoned.
For those of you playing along at home, that's 8 pages (4 turns). 2 full-pages and 2 half-pages are blank, for a total of 3 blanks out of 8. So, then, in the space of five printed pages (equivalent to two turns of the page) we are taken through the entirety of Chapter IV, which is comprised of two sub-chapters; each introduces new major characters and plot points, and then promptly drops them and doesn't return to either until pg.97. That's 33 pages later, which in this nutso structure covers Chapters V and VI (aka, 8 crazy sub-chapters).
And finally, if you're going to go through the trouble of thinking up your cool little names for each main chapter, WHY WOULDN'T YOU INCLUDE A TABLE OF CONTENTS?!
I am not exaggerating in the least about the following: IV: Night Terrors begins on pg.57. As with all the major chapters, there is no text on that page other than the Roman numeral and title. IV1 begins on pg.58 and ends mid-way down pg.60. IV2 runs from pg.60 to halfway down pg.63. The rest of that page is blank and pg.64 is blank but for V: Summoned.
For those of you playing along at home, that's 8 pages (4 turns). 2 full-pages and 2 half-pages are blank, for a total of 3 blanks out of 8. So, then, in the space of five printed pages (equivalent to two turns of the page) we are taken through the entirety of Chapter IV, which is comprised of two sub-chapters; each introduces new major characters and plot points, and then promptly drops them and doesn't return to either until pg.97. That's 33 pages later, which in this nutso structure covers Chapters V and VI (aka, 8 crazy sub-chapters).
And finally, if you're going to go through the trouble of thinking up your cool little names for each main chapter, WHY WOULDN'T YOU INCLUDE A TABLE OF CONTENTS?!
I know you're supposed to try to "hook" the reader at the end of the chapter and leave something unresolved so that they continue turning pages to find out the answer. But you certainly shouldn't over do it with dialogue like what you've described.
Thanks to everyone in this thread who posted good books to pick up... I really had no clue what Dark Sun was until picking up 4E and City Under the Sand. I like it so far, and I'm sure I'll be looking for some of these.
I thought the book wasn't that bad at all as novels go, although the overprevalence of metal throughout the book kind of irked me a bit.
My favorite books in the DS universe are those written by Lynn Abbey. Her protrayal of Urik and Hammanu is amazing.
I thought the book wasn't that bad at all as novels go, although the overprevalence of metal throughout the book kind of irked me a bit.
The metal issue disturbed me a bit as well. The metal found in the city (under the sand) wasn't what I had issue with, but rather everyone having a metal sword and even a simple village having a blacksmith.
I wasn't that into "City Under the Sand", but if we start talking the least favorite of the Dark Sun novels, "Darkness Before the Dawn" wins hands down.
I thought the book wasn't that bad at all as novels go, although the overprevalence of metal throughout the book kind of irked me a bit.
The metal issue disturbed me a bit as well. The metal found in the city (under the sand) wasn't what I had issue with, but rather everyone having a metal sword and even a simple village having a blacksmith.
I wasn't that into "City Under the Sand", but if we start talking the least favorite of the Dark Sun novels, "Darkness Before the Dawn" wins hands down.
I have to agree with the general sentiment here that the Lynn Abbey novels are the best, with the Troy Denning ones being second if only for the grittiness and acontrast they provide to the lighter ones by Lynn. City under the Sand was probably on par wth the worst of the Dark Sun novels, though none of them were truly bad. (I think there was one done by Ryan Hughes somewhere in there, that I seem to remember being dismal) The stuff I really didn't like in City under the Sand that I felt was company-directed was the introduction of TOO MANY CHARACTERS, and lots of bouncing around, a trend I saw in Mark of Nerath. Another one is the character who is the focus of the book's first few chapters, who you never see again (though his companion shows up in Nibenay's presence with head half-severed) Are we to assume he died underneath Arankhot? This is not explained.
The metal found in the city (under the sand) wasn't what I had issue with, but rather everyone having a metal sword and even a simple village having a blacksmith.
This. The blacksmith angle was just unbelievable and a real turn-off. A more believable Dark Sun protagonist might have been an Athasian ice cream vendor.
The metal found in the city (under the sand) wasn't what I had issue with, but rather everyone having a metal sword and even a simple village having a blacksmith.
This. The blacksmith angle was just unbelievable and a real turn-off. A more believable Dark Sun protagonist might have been an Athasian ice cream vendor.
That didn't bother me quite as much as some other people I guess. Particularly in the city-states, I could see there being bkacksmiths. Iron isn't the real-world equivalent of, say, moon rocks. As I see it, it's rarity and value to Athasians is like platinum for us. Something as large as a sword made out of it would be an incredible and exceedingly rare thing to behold, but there would be craftsmen who could make such an item.
On Athas a blacksmith might work with things like copper, bronze, or tin and the finest craftsmen would be trusted with iron when it came available.
Thoughts?
as for metal-working, there's a number of mines in the Tyr Region; off the top of my head:
iron mine in Tyr
copper mine in Balic
silver mine in Altaruk
gold mine in Walis
there's a fair amount of bronze around, so there has to be a tin mine somewhere
Getting back to the OPs question of Best DS novel, curious the lack of votes that appear for the Prism Pentad series. Just the one vote for Cerulean Storm.
How does that series stack up against the previously mentioned ones, especially the Lynn Abbey ones (since she's rec'd the most postitive revies thus far).
I really enjoyed this series so far, and I'm getting ready to read the Cerulean Storm...but after that, I will be looking for another DS series myself. So far, I'm looking at either Outcast or Brazen Gambit.
Far as the Prism series goes, I found I enjoyed the Amber Enchantress the most, followed by the Verdant Passage and then the Crimson Legion. Gotta admit, the Obsidian Oracle left me flat (which is why it's taken me about 5 of 6 months to getting around to even wanting to start the Cerulean Storm). Just never really liked the character of Agis...can't put my finger on it, but he just seemed "stupid" to me. Maybe even overly self righteous as well, I dunno. Liked the rest of the characters and the series though, so I am going to make it a point to finish it though.
Lynn Abbey's novels are excellent, because they offer a more mature, more personable perspective of the world. It isn't presented exactly as: good vs evil - but everything is more of muted grey. For example, if Druids are good and Templar are evil, why does the Druid not care about the citizens of Urik and the Templar does?
The Rise and Fall is about the Sorcerer King of Urik. We are 'taught' that the sorcerer-kings are evil. But, how could he of himself as evil...?
On the other hand, many D&D enthusiasts really need that good vs evil perspective. Most of the other novel series do a very good job defining and separating good and evil (Avangion vs Dragon, Slave vs Tyrant, Nature vs Defiling, Honour vs Deception, Life vs Undead, etc).
Thanks
How difficult would reading the novels terms of translating the old novels from 2E into the mindset of a 4e player be? Is there anything that would be really confusing in those novels for somebody who only knows of Dark Sun through its most modern campaign setting incarnation?
Thanks
In my opinion the main changes are:
Templar in 2e was a class in itself (cleric type and the being worshipped and granting powers is the SK) so when Kalak died, Tyrian Templars lost their spellcasting powers, which would not happen in 4e as far as I know.
An example of mechanics that works better in 4e though is Sadira switching from Preserver to Defiler back an forth, which was not really mechanically easy in 2e (as those were two separate classes with different speeds of progression). Now the way defiling works in 4e, it is totally compatible with Sadira's story.
To start becoming a dragon or avangion you had to reach level 20 as psion and level 20 as defiler or preserver, so it was a lot harder to do back then in my opinion.
Clerics existed an were worshipping a specific element as opposed to a god. In 4e there are no clerics, but I guess Shamans fill that spot.
There are very likely more, but I can't think of any so maybe they were not too heavy in terms of mechanics / compatibility with the original books.
Well I just finished the book and I have to admit I had fun with it. There were
times when I felt the story dragged a bit but in the end it was a good read.
However with that said I do need to point out that this is a Dark Sun book, if
you're not a D&D fan or a Dark Sun fan you may not enjoy this book nearly as
much. The story is strong though the characters are a bit weak. I don't mean
that they are bad characters but sadly the author dosn't give us much insight
into thier personal motives or their histories. We don't know their personal
fears, dreams, asperations or well anything beyond the fact that they are on a
mission and they will do what it takes to complete it. Agis is the main
character for this book in my opinion and is the most flushed out character of
them all but sadly he dosn't shine very bright because we only get minimal
details of what's going on in his head at the time. The book reads like a movie
and though thats not bad on a personal note I expect more from the characters in
the books I read. I want to feel their humanity (or lack of it) not just see it.
So if you're a Dark Sun fan, or a fan of D&D and the books that go
with it then this is deffenatly something to read. If you're just a plane
fantasy fan then I assure you there are many other books to read that will give
you a similar feel. I will say this though, the world of Athas is well painted
in the book and the creatures that inhabit it are a nice break from your cookie
cutter versions, Dwarves are bald and hate hair (in most other books they love
their beards), elves are back ally thugs not your normal helpful and mystical
types. So there is a lot of fun stuff in the book, I can only hope book 2 gives
me more insight on how the characters feel, where they came from and where they
want to go... thats the thing characters should want things, afterall if they
are human (or human like) then they should have personal desires.
I stand by my review, its a good book and a fun read but I did feel that I wanted more from it. In my mind it could have used a 100 more pages of just pure fluff... but I'm a fluff lover. I'm currently reading "The Mark of Nerath" by Bill Slavicsek, and honestly I'm having the same issues. The chapters are short, the characters are just doing what they are doing to follow some vague sense of adventure/honor or something. To me their is a lack of motive in both books. These characters are adventuring purely for the sake that they are in an adventure book. In my mind the Verdant Passage had a better hook, the resistance where as the Mark of Nerath seems to have a very weak "impending doom" feel to it.
Good golly, all due respect to the author, but this is dreadful writing. Did anyone else read this one?? Did anyone else give up on it (like it's looking more and more like I am going to do). Am I missing something here? I really want to like it, just because I love the setting, but my gosh is this bad. The writing is 3rd grade level and the story plods on into pointlessness with characters that are whiney and clueless at best.
At least Brazin Gambit, by Lynn Abbey, turned out to be really good (and in fact, probably my favorite DS novel).
Agree with all those who rate Lynn Abbey's books. They're among the best (unintentional mangling of canon notwithstanding). Lynn shared her development notes with DS fans a few years back and she definitely did her research, but came to some interesting conclusions. Still got a pdf of her notes lying around somewhere if anyone is interested.
Amber Enchantress is probably my favourite of the Pentad. Some great scenes and interesting character moments in there. Love the whole Nibenay sequence.
Hawke's books are OK. He has a good grasp of desert geography and some intriguing plot ideas. The DS elements are a bit wobbly, though. Still, he did give us the Hawke's Gambit dice game, though, which is pretty awesome.
Darkness Before the Dawn is pretty damn poor. The tohr-kreen character is kinda cool, but that's about it.
Agree with all those who rate Lynn Abbey's books. They're among the best (unintentional mangling of canon notwithstanding). Lynn shared her development notes with DS fans a few years back and she definitely did her research, but came to some interesting conclusions. Still got a pdf of her notes lying around somewhere if anyone is interested.
Amber Enchantress is probably my favourite of the Pentad. Some great scenes and interesting character moments in there. Love the whole Nibenay sequence.
Hawke's books are OK. He has a good grasp of desert geography and some intriguing plot ideas. The DS elements are a bit wobbly, though. Still, he did give us the Hawke's Gambit dice game, though, which is pretty awesome.
At least it's not just me. Man, that is one terrible book. I tried to get further last night, I'm at the part where Jedra and Kayan are inside that orb/world...and I think I'm just going to leave them there and move onto the next book, heh, heh. In fact, I think the next one I have in a Hawke book, so we'll see how that goes.
Agree with you on Amber Enchantress. And Abbey does rock ;0)
Lynn shared her development notes with DS fans a few years back and she definitely did her research, but came to some interesting conclusions. Still got a pdf of her notes lying around somewhere if anyone is interested.
Kamelion
I'd be very interested in those note if you don't mind. Thanks much.
Ultimate_Cap
FWIW, the author of The Darkness Before the Dawn wrote a short story that came with a 2E Module based on the two main characters (most of the 2E modules came with a short story book included that usually had some monster or NPC stats at the end too). I think it was called Heat Lightning or something. It wasn't too bad but I guess stretching it into a novel length story kind of killed it. I'm not a fan of the book either.
Lynn shared her development notes with DS fans a few years back and she definitely did her research, but came to some interesting conclusions. Still got a pdf of her notes lying around somewhere if anyone is interested.
Kamelion
I'd be very interested in those note if you don't mind. Thanks much.
PM me your email addy and I'll send you a copy
Ultimate_Cap
FWIW, the author of The Darkness Before the Dawn wrote a short story that came with a 2E Module based on the two main characters (most of the 2E modules came with a short story book included that usually had some monster or NPC stats at the end too). I think it was called Heat Lightning or something. It wasn't too bad but I guess stretching it into a novel length story kind of killed it. I'm not a fan of the book either.
It was A Little Knowledge and it was really cool - tied in really well to the intro adventure in the boxed set. No idea what happened in the novel - it just seemed to lose its way completely.
(Heat Lightning was the one that came with Dragon's Crown
)
It was A Little Knowledge and it was really cool - tied in really well to the intro adventure in the boxed set. No idea what happened in the novel - it just seemed to lose its way completely.
(Heat Lightning was the one that came with Dragon's Crown
I am humbled by your knowledge of the setting, and PM sent
I was thinking Heat Lightning due to the lightning bolt that turned the sand into glass and allowed them to expand their powers in the story. I think, lol.
It was A Little Knowledge and it was really cool - tied in really well to the intro adventure in the boxed set. No idea what happened in the novel - it just seemed to lose its way completely.
(Heat Lightning was the one that came with Dragon's Crown
I am humbled by your knowledge of the setting, and PM sent
I was thinking Heat Lightning due to the lightning bolt that turned the sand into glass and allowed them to expand their powers in the story. I think, lol.
:D
I just happened to re-read it last week, otherwise I would have said Heat Lightning as well, for the same reason, lol.
The Lynn Abbey pdf is on its way!
. I can't remember who originally got in touch with her, but she seemed really happy to share. I think I got the file from Nyt back in the day. Good stuff.You're welcome
OK, now you got me interested...can I PM you my addy and get a copy of that as well?
Sure, Ultimate_Cap. Drop me a line and I'll send it your way.
Line dropped!
Is Lynn Abby writing anymore?
Sure, Ultimate_Cap. Drop me a line and I'll send it your way.
Line dropped!
Is Lynn Abby writing anymore?
It's on its way
I guess she's still writing. I haven't read any of her other stuff, though.
A little assistance please...
So, I started reading The Broken Blade, and realized pretty quickly that apparently the main character is the same charater from the Tribe of One series (Sorak).
Should I stop reading this book now and read the Tribe or One series first? Obviously I know he lives (heh, heh) but will it hurt my enjoyment to go ahead with The Broken Blade now?
A little assistance please...
So, I started reading The Broken Blade, and realized pretty quickly that apparently the main character is the same charater from the Tribe of One series (Sorak).Should I stop reading this book now and read the Tribe or One series first? Obviously I know he lives (heh, heh) but will it hurt my enjoyment to go ahead with The Broken Blade now?
A snarky response would be to say yes, just stop reading it now and read something better instead
.(While I found the Tribe of One passable, I was rather annoyed by The Broken Blade. It's not an awful book or anything - I'll come back to precisely why it annoyed me after you're done so as to avoid spoilers.)
A more helpful reponse would be to say yes, stop reading it and go and read the Tribe of One series first. Sorak's character arc in that series has bearing on Broken Blade, so for pure sake of continuity, you should read the earlier series first
.A little assistance please...
So, I started reading The Broken Blade, and realized pretty quickly that apparently the main character is the same charater from the Tribe of One series (Sorak).Should I stop reading this book now and read the Tribe or One series first? Obviously I know he lives (heh, heh) but will it hurt my enjoyment to go ahead with The Broken Blade now?
A snarky response would be to say yes, just stop reading it now and read something better instead .
(While I found the Tribe of One passable, I was rather annoyed by The Broken Blade. It's not an awful book or anything - I'll come back to precisely why it annoyed me after you're done so as to avoid spoilers.)
A more helpful reponse would be to say yes, stop reading it and go and read the Tribe of One series first. Sorak's character arc in that series has bearing on Broken Blade, so for pure sake of continuity, you should read the earlier series first .
Will take that under advisment. In fact, already leaning toward going with Tribe of One first. Though I will say, after readying the prologue to Broken Blade, the writing was a world better then Darkness Before Dawn, lol!!