Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CoreyartustheSecond Dec 08, 2014 10:23:55	I have a question regarding HotDQ's specific encounter "No Room at the Inn" in Episode 4.  I would appreciate any advice one might offer.   I am DMing my group through that particular encounter this week, and wondered how other DMs have handled it.  As written, the CR for those foes is incredibly high.  The writer, Steve Winters, has admitted it was an editing mistake and the stat block was changed after writing it (a consequence of publishing the adventure before the rules were finalized).   The XP reward for those monsters is disproportionately high as a consequence of the new CR.  The foes are incredibly deadly.  The scenario as written seems to require a way of "dealing" with the monsters in order to accomplish the goals of the encounter, and it was obviously written to potentially accomodate combat as a solution, at least before the stat blocks were changed.  Entering combat with those particular monsters would now have a very very high chance of a TPK unless roleplaying solutions can be used instead.  It feels like that particular scene wasn't intended originally to be solved with roleplaying alternatives...   I am wondering how this particular encounter is being handled at other Adventurer's League tables.  I understand DMs are empowered to adjust the encounter.  However, I also understand that XP rewards cannot be adjusted.  Each successfully accomplished scenario in that Episode grants an equal amount of XP.     Have you, as the DM, rewarded that "blanket" XP amount for each scenario equally, regardless of the monsters?  Do you reward the XP for the monsters as well as (from what I can summize) a Story Reward?  That particular scenario in that Episode is completely out of wack CR-wise, and potentially "punishing" the PCs with  phenomenally low XP for defeating those foes seems to be slavishly sticking to RAW when it's obviously an error in the printing process...   Have your tables retained the RAW foes, and devised roleplaying solutions?  If so, how, as I'd love to know!!!  LOL!    Did you change those particular monsters?   If your tables fought those monsters, how on earth did they survive?!?  LOL!  And what XP did you reward them?   Thanks for any advice you can offer--I appreciate it!
#2 Dyndrilliac Dec 08, 2014 13:45:25	The only way for a group of PCs to survive that encounter is for the PCs to strike first with surprise. The DM knows that the NPCs are assassins and aren't going to let the encounter end without bloodshed, so maybe drop some hints that the PCs are justified in a pre-emptive strike. Maybe some of the bar patrons are giving the assassins dirty looks, or maybe a waitress asks the PCs to get rid of the unruly customers before they even encounter the assassins, and as it happens, the assassins are the unruly customers. Letting the PCs strike first robs the assassins of one of their most potent ablities which is automatic advantage on their first turn against PCs who haven't acted, and automatic critical if they hit a PC with surprise.   My group successfully defeated that encounter as published, and the only reasons we won is because we were in aggressive murderhobo mode and decided to kill them after they began insulting us.
#3 Tyranthraxus Dec 08, 2014 16:46:37	Having just played in this and been told after the combat that the DM had to change what was in the encounter or we all would of been dead, then I agree. This combat is written is far too deadly for the characters at this point in time.  He said later on the monsters CR was all incredibly high.   I know the authors wrote this Module before they knew the full iteration of the rules but EVEN taking that into consideration there wasnt so much of a change of the rules for it to matter to this encounter.  Its a dud argument.
(Reply to #3) HeresyDM	I thought it was a stupid encounter that was goading/tricking the PCs into getting themselves killed. I just didn't run that encounter at all.
#5 Kalani Dec 08, 2014 19:31:22	I ran that encounter a few weeks ago. In the first round, 2 of my 7 PCs were unconscious, and a third was at 2HPs - meanwhile none of the assassins had taken any damage yet. In response, I said - "Nope, whoever wrote this encounter was underestimating the encounter's difficulty" and then retconned that round, then removed 2 of the 4 assassins. In hindsight, I would have probably only removed a single assassin as 2 assassins was somewhat easy for my party (given its size).    In addition, I awarded full combat XP for that encounter (2 assassins) rather than the suggested 300XP/encounter as outlined at the beginning of the Episode.
#6 Pauper Dec 09, 2014 7:41:39	Wasn't present for this encounter at our FLGS, but caught up with a few of the participants yesterday, and it turns out they ran this encounter.   It's apparently a lot more even if the party wizard has shatter and the DM can't make a saving throw to save her NPCs lives.   I'm going to defend this encounter, flawed as it may be, because it illustrates an old-school type of encounter: the encounter where the PCs, unless they perform exhaustive prep, have no idea that they're signing their own death warrants if they draw steel. Many classic published modules contain at least one of these kinds of encounters, while a few legendary modules (Tomb of Horrors immediately springs to mind) were entire dungeons full of them. The TPK points out that this isn't an MMO, where the different areas of the world are mapped out by expected PC level, and if the DM takes the time to point out a few (not all, of course) of the ways the PCs could have figured out in advance that the encounter was way more dangerous than it appeared at first glance, it can have a powerful influence on PC behavior. A few of these sorts of encounters, as well as a few truly deadly traps in unexpected places, and you get a party that develops a very Gygaxian style, searching everything, investigating the heck out of everything.   It might not be what we're going for in Adventurers League, but I won't say there's no place for it anywhere in D&D; it's as classic as sending the hirelings ahead with 10' poles to scout for pit traps.   -- Pauper
#7 CoreyartustheSecond Dec 09, 2014 8:35:18	Well, it seems this particular scenario exposes a few "holes" in the AL policies that have to be articulated more clearly...  I truly appreciate all your perspectives.   From what I can glean, it seems this little scenario brings to light several different contrasting understandings that need to be addressed in AL's future. 1) The extent a DM can alter the encounters and how one define's "adjust". 2) The awarding of XP (whether the adventure's prescribed 300xp/scenario is interpreted as a "cap" or not) 3) How Adventurers League handles printing errors. 4) What sources/procedures are relevant for use in addressing these issues and where/how they are provided in AL/D&D materials.   It's clear to me that I'm not going to get any concrete/"approved" answers or advice for handling this, as these are larger topics beyond the scope of this particular little scenario that the campaign as a whole needs to think about before it trickles down to this little encounter.   I'll do the best I can.  There are pros and cons to running it as printed, adjusting it, subbing in different monsters...  All of those options seem to have larger ramifications on lots of different things.  In the end, the only way to completely ensure the PCs stay legal is to run the adventure as printed and hope they survive.  There has been some debate on how one "legally adjusts" the encounter and what XP to reward, so I'm not sure what else to do.  That being said, hearing how other tables have handled it is incredibly useful.  I appreciate the advice.
#8 Kalani Dec 09, 2014 8:47:28	CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
(Reply to #8) CoreyartustheSecond	Kalani wrote:
#10 Kalani Dec 09, 2014 9:18:55	I think the guideline at the beginning of the Episode is the XP for noncombat encounters (of which the Episode has quite a few potentially). Combat Encounters should (under most circumstances) award full combat XP. That is how I have been running things at the very least, and even despite this my characters have only just scrapped Level 5. As I understand it, the PCs are expected to hit Level 6 (approximately) by the end of Episode 6, which accounts for ~7500XP in Episodes 5 and 6 combined.   I am not entirely certain that my party will achieve this objective, and as such I have taken a slight detour and am running them through Tyranny in Phlan between Episodes 5 and 6.
(Reply to #7) Pauper	CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
#12 CoreyartustheSecond Dec 09, 2014 14:32:25	Pauper, you offer good advice.  I'm still confused about a handful of things, though...   Regarding adjusting things:  I'm wondering what the virtue is of not swapping out monsters, if those particular monsters were never intended to be there in the first place.  It feels like trying to implement a solution to the problem using a method that was never intended to apply to the quandary in the first place.  The idea of decreasing a monster's hit points or capabilities feels, to me, like an effort to retain the accidental XP that has been offered as a consequence of an accident in the editing process. I understand how these modifications work in the normal context--and I agree with them--but I'm not sure why it's necessary to apply them to this particular situation. From what I've read, applying the solutions you suggest has worked for other people, with a lot of careful fenagling...  Why the desire to force a square peg into a round hole but to support a policy for it's own sake and acquire XP that seems unintentional?   Regarding awarding XP:  I was told there were no caps on any Episodes beyond Episode 3.  So, essentially, awarding the vast amount of XP for that accidental entry wouldn't be a legality problem, theoretically.  Many tables are using it as the opportunity to fill in the XP gap between levels 4-5.  Other tables haven't needed it.  It's whether there are caps at all that is my question, and whether that 300xp for each scenario is intended as Story Reward or to encompass the combat XP.  That's being interpreted differently for different tables.     HotDQ is, I agree, an anomaly that continues to throw all kinds of wrenches into the works for AL...   The Admins were put in a position to trust what was sent their way, and in some ways it feels like they were dealt a bad hand.  It is miraculous that more stuff hasn't fallen through the cracks (albeit I expect more anomolous situations may present themselves in the future regarding HotDQ and RoT).  My interpersonal interactions with players has, in some ways, grown stronger in the face of mutually dealing with the logistical nightmare that HotDQ has created for our venue's tables and scheduling (for example), so that's a silver lining at least.   I have confidence that the problems we've all experienced on this fledgling adventure are being noted.  I'm optimistic many of the issues won't be a problem in the future.  It's just getting through this season and feeling like there's any campaign-wide consistency that's the issue.  And, honestly, I'm sorta letting that go, too, and trying to concentrate on my own table's play experience. Sadly, I'm actually dreading the potential of other players coming to my table and what that may entail...  And I shouldn't feel that way.  I was, at one point, under the impression that I could choose whether to allow players to join our table, but I've learned differently.   So hearing how other tables have dealt with this scenario is helpful.  Thank-you.  I may not solve the issue the "right" way, but I'm learning what is "right" is "relative" for this season.  And I'm learning to roll with it.
#13 Tyranthraxus Dec 09, 2014 16:23:44	Sadly my table has really gone off script in regards to Encounters. Magic items have already been handed out and items changed to become other items (ie a Longsword +1 becomes a Greatsword +1). Ive refused all 'made up' scrolls that we have found so Im attempting to keep to the AL rules but its proven impossible to get the others (inc DM) to stick to the rules.   So Im just playing as the only AL legal character on my encounters table now.
#14 Noon Dec 10, 2014 15:16:23	When we played it the GM had the assassins simply let the remaining PC's drag away the unconcious ones (of which I was one) and stabalise them.   They beat us down so hard that only two PC's had gotten into melee range - and those were beaten down. This left three other PC's to drag us away.
#15 TheNovaLord Dec 14, 2014 4:42:13	I think I dropped it to one assassin and 3 bandits Brutal otherwise
#16 Yokel60 Dec 15, 2014 21:37:23	After looking up the CRs for the assassins and how Steve Winter suggested addressing the issue, I went with 5 knights (CR 3) for my group.  It worked, they interacted with them and got the same frustration, as I had tied the knights to a noble house in Waterdeep.  There still managed to be a little skirmish, but it wasn't instant death for the party like I think the assassins would have been, especially if the players do assume they are nothing more than the nobles that they appear to be.     Yokel
#17 Byakugan01 Dec 23, 2014 2:00:17	I don't really know how the actual adventure is written because I'm playing through them so I'm avoiding spoilers for things I haven't done yet.  But I do like reading about others experiences compared to our groups.   In our AL game the assassin were acting like pompous royal asshats and I started to try to go the diplomatic route. But the Drow assassin in our party started hurling insults to provoke them, and so nobody was surprised when they drew steel and started swinging and everyone rolled initiative.  At the beginning of the fight I started to ask everyone not to kill them...because I'm the only good character and I didnt think spoiled royals deserved death for being stupid...Then the first guy stabbed the rogue for an auto-crit and started rolling a fistfull of dice plus 7d6 poison damage and I was like hrmm....nevermind they need to die, lol. Uncanny dodge and a successful save vs the poison was the only reason he didnt drop in 1 hit. A 2nd attack missed.  Even with advantage.    Everyone including the DM rolls dice in the open except for initiative which the DM usually rolls hidden (this is where I assume he fudges a lot to keep things interesting)...At least 1 monster always seems to have a 22 or 23 initiative and always goes before the 18 dex rogue.  I am pretty OK with this since the rogue does not need to steal the limelight all the time.  ME on the other hand, I usually always roll a 5 or less on initiative so I usually get to AE nuke stuff at my leisure since the mobs usually engage the front line.  DM typically rolls randomly to see who unengaged monsters target, and otherwise they usually go after whoever has hurt them the most.  The big fights seem particularly deadly in this adventure, and the DM has definitely 'pulled the last punch'  on a few occasions.  But we still have a few deaths racked up, and usually 1-3 people in our usual  5-6 man party get knocked out at least once in the big fights.    In this fight, 2 of the guys rolled high initiative, 1 medium, and 1 slow.  The initiative order is probably the only reason we did so well, because our rogue got to disengage so assasin number 2 attacked the Barbarian who was next closest.  He only landed 1 out of 2 attacks with advantage and did like 40 damage which was partially resisted with the save but still bloodied the Barbarian in 1 shot.   Next up was the Barbarian who raged and took a chunk out of the guy who stabbed him, before the 3rd assasin moved up and stabbed the barbarian 2 more times. But because of his resistance to all damage and poison saves, he was still up with like 7 hitpoints.  Then our thief rogue stepped up attacked and disengaged back out.   Then us magic users pretty much took over as I hit 3 of them with a L2 burning hands, and the Warlock cast Hunger of Cthulu(Hadar) and everyone else backed up and readied attacks for whoever stepped out of the darkness.  The 4th assasin moved out of the darkness and ended up next to the thief rogue, and rolled a natural 20, knocking him unconscious through Uncanny dodge in 1 shot with a failed save on the 7d6 poison.  Somewhere along the lines the Warlock also got stabbed once, but made his poison save and there was no sneak attack dice, then he used vicious mockery and did like 30 damage dropping him. Another guy stepped out and promptly got shoved back into the hungering darkness by the barbarian.  A couple failed saves and some loud slurping sounds later, the fight was over.  One of the bodies was mysteriously missing(Cthulu was hungry).   I don't know how it was written, but the assasins we faced were using Dual Wield with their primary weapons coated in 7d6 poison that lasted for THREE hits.  It was pretty brutal but also a ton of fun.