Animate Dead and PC Clerics - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Undrhil Sep 02, 2015 5:23:38	If I am cast Animate Dead to raise a zombie and another PC continues to use Turn Undead because "they're undead and my god is against that" would that be considered 'disruptive behavior'?
#2 Kahless Sep 02, 2015 5:50:33	Well, Turn Undead is limited to a number of times per day (but then I guess so is Animate). If he's doing it just to break Wheaton's Law, or using the "that's what my character would do" excuse, then yes, but if you walk into a room full of undead you have to fight and he sets it off, I say that's valid, and sorry about your zombies getting caught in the blast.
#3 imaginaryfriend Sep 02, 2015 5:56:35	As kahless says, its all about intent and the situation. Just because you have undead buddies does not mean Turn Undead becomes a skill the cleric can no longer use. But using it justo ruin your day (or anyone elses) with a flimsy BS excuse.. that would be disruptive to me.
#4 Mirtek Sep 02, 2015 7:34:01	I would raising undead a disruptive behaviour, just like always stealing or attacking random NPCs. While i could see the new government of phlan not caring that much about undead, parading your undead through mulmaster IR hillsfar should result in screaming citizens and an angry and well armes group if guards In this particular case there's also the metagame issue since nothing slows down battles like a player having bis own party within the party
#5 Nozareem Sep 02, 2015 11:54:58	This actually happend with my cleric of Bane vs another players cleric of Kelemvor in mod DDEX1-12. But we both were in character and it made for interesting character interaction between our characters after it happend. There was no PVP but our to characters were at odds for a moment.
#6 TiaNadiezja Sep 02, 2015 11:59:37	Raising an army (or small squad) of undead is something that can create conflict with other players, so before you start playing a character that does so make sure to keep that in mind. However, there's also no excuse for the cleric/paladin player to go all Lawful Stupid on the necromancer's undead brigade. Everyone handle things like adults, remember that the TSR-era rules about who you can tolerate were removed for a good reason, and find how to stay true to yourr characters without disrupting the table.
#7 TheBreen Sep 02, 2015 12:34:06	Undrhil wrote:
#8 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 02, 2015 19:34:46	TheBreen wrote:
#9 Kahless Sep 02, 2015 23:26:07	Yeah, I agree. Metagame the issue and ask the table beforehand if anyone has an issue. If they do, maybe have a Plan B way of playing the character. I'm sure there are plenty of other necromancy spells at that level you can use (or lower level spells you can up to that level). But yes, don't parade your undead through town. I would think that would also involve some serious NPC reactions. As for playing nice with others, do what I do with my druid animal companion in Pathfinder Society play. Hold them back so they don't outshine the other players, play them as support, let your tanks and rogues get in there. Then fill in the gaps with your minions. Maybe instead of rolling damage, all they do is use the Help action and kind of cling onto the bad guys. Use them to provoke OAs to get to the back line and harry spellcasters. It doesn't matter if they go down. You can always raise them again.
#10 Tyranthraxus Sep 03, 2015 0:47:15	Keep in mind that a by the book Cleric of Kelemvor will ALWAYS attack Undead. Part of their divine mandate set by Kelemvor is to make sure that all undead in any form you may find it are destroyed. His list of exceptions probably can be counted on 3 fingers. A Cleric of Kelemvor should not allow a undead to exist and nor should they adventure with anyone who proceeds to create them, even if they are in the same party. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor
#11 Kalani Sep 03, 2015 9:26:11	While that is true in principle - please remember an even more important rule: "It's what my character would do" is never an excuse ALPG p22 How do I deal with players of evil characters, or who venerate an evil deity? Just because a player has a character with a darker side doesn’t mean that player has a license to make the game less fun for others at the table. Players are encouraged to have their characters work together despite their differences; a little competition is fine, as long as it stays fun for everyone involved and doesn’t result in other players getting shut out of the experience. If a DM or another player feels as though a player is creating an uncomfortable situation through the excuse of “it’s what my character would do,” the DM is free to give the offending player a warning for disruptive behavior, and if it persists, ask the organizer to remove the player from the table.
#12 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 03, 2015 12:27:46	Kalani wrote:
#13 Kalani Sep 03, 2015 13:00:53	Not exactly - if one player creates an unfortunate situation, and another character makes that situation worse by reacting to it in a similarly extreme fashion - both players are at fault for disruptive play. Lets keep with the examples in this thread: PC 1: Necromancer PC 2: Cleric of Kelemvor Necromancer: Summons a bunch of undead. This by itself is not disruptive. It is how they are used which becomes disruptive. Examples of disruptive play include: Slow Play: Summoning so many minions that it slows down gameplay / causes the necromancer to spend more than 2-3minutes on their turn. This does nothing to enhance the game, as most DMs will simply increase the number of enemies to compensate. Necromancer Show: Failing to share combat duties and other tasks with other characters. It is fine for the Necromancer to use their minions to wall off a group of enemies and soak some hits - so long as the Necromancer remains mindful to leave enemies for the other PCs to engage (esp. melee characters). The necromancer should also make certain to share the enemies fairly and not hog all the "boss" monsters themselves. Your party members are not minions whose job is to clean up rabble. Everyone should work together. Slaughter and revive: This is an issue if the necromancer kills prisoners or NPCs that the party wants to question/keep alive - solely for the purpose of adding more minions to the list. Logistics: Using minions as obstacles to prevent PCs from sharing in combat (ties into one-man show); carts laden with dead bodies; etc. The Necromancer should always remain mindful of positioning, and give It is fine to summon a handful of minions if the opportunity presents itself (and it should frequently). It is entirely a different thing to summon overwhelming numbers of minions so that it becomes the Necromancer show. Cleric of Kelemvor: I gave some examples on how the character can work with a PC Necromancer above. Examples of disruptive play include: Attacking NPC undead when it is clear (from a metagame perspective) that this is a non-combat encounter, esp. if the NPC would constitute an unwinable fight (eg. Archliches, the Vampire Zhentarim contact, etc). The character should instead attempt to convince such characters to end their unnatural existance, after which they can either be raised, or let their soul rest (diplomacy). Attacking PC undead just because its something your character would do.... Instead, you should secure promises from the PC necromancer that the undead will be destroyed after completing a short-term goal. Anything suicidal involving undead, esp. if it is likely to draw unwanted attention that might result in a TPK
#14 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 03, 2015 13:53:44	Kalani wrote:
#15 Kalani Sep 03, 2015 14:08:09	Evil =/= disruptive It depends entirely on the context, and how it affects the other PCs. Evil characters are perfectly legal in AL (providing they are of the correct faction). Torture, murder and theft are all evil acts as well - yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that.... If killing a cultist in their sleep means you don't have to fight them later, it may be a very practical act, but nonetheless evil (as you just killed an unarmed and incapactitated foe unprovoked).
#16 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 03, 2015 17:01:26	Kalani wrote:
#17 Tyranthraxus Sep 03, 2015 18:25:55	I do run a Cleric of Kelemvor. He hasnt seen much action but I make sure I always check out who else has signed up to play and Ill purposely swap out the character if anyone does sign up with a pro undead character. Id prefer not not play the character, than compromise the story and canonicity of the character.
#18 FarBeyondC Sep 03, 2015 20:37:38	Undrhil wrote:
(Reply to #14) FarBeyondC	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#20 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 04, 2015 10:41:42	FarBeyondC wrote:
#21 SteveMND Sep 04, 2015 11:58:26	FarBeyondC wrote:
#22 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 04, 2015 13:07:25	SteveMND wrote:
#23 Malthorn Sep 05, 2015 3:43:29	Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
#24 Mommy_was_an_Orc Sep 05, 2015 14:27:31	Malthorn wrote:
#25 Pauper Sep 10, 2015 11:18:23	What you are saying when you say that one character can create undead with a spell and another character who is defined as worshipping the god devoted to the destruction of undead can't do anything about it is mechanics trump story. Let's ignore for the moment that in Season 1, choosing to play a cleric of Kelemvor could itself be a mechanical decision, as Kelemvor's temple was the only functioning one in Phlan. Instead, let's point out that, in Season 1, there are at least two adventures where, if the party shows up with undead in tow, the NPC responsible for handing out the adventure hook would probably destroy the undead before even speaking to the PCs, and should thereafter be very suspicious of their motives for wanting to take the mission. Would the DM be 'being disruptive' in this situation? SteveMND points out the 'episodic living campaign' aspect of AL, and that's reasonable, but I'd counter that the difference between a living campaign and a series of unconnected monster brawls is the story beats that connect the adventures. The admins have worked to provide those story beats, through recurring NPCs, through events that tie different modules together (for example, the moment before the bar brawl in DDEX 1-2 when the party gets to encounter all the significant 'villain' NPCs from DDEX 1-5 and 1-6, without realizing what they are plotting), and through simply providing a consistent environment that reacts to the party in certain ways. To claim that the NPC high priest of Kelemvor wouldn't destroy the necromancer's zombie servant because the PC is a 'special snowflake' is just as damaging to the living campaign aspect of AL as it would be to replace a recurring NPC with a generic one simply because you as DM don't like the recurring NPC -- you are depriving players who enjoy the backstory behind the campaign of the opportunity to fully experience and enjoy the backstory, and you are making the game less fun as a result. Don't do that. When it makes sense, let story trump mechanics, so that everybody can have fun, not just the people who care about mechanics. The alternative is a game where nobody cares about story and everybody makes choices based on mechanical efficacy, which is supposed to be something we're trying to avoid this time around. -- Pauper
#26 Kalani Sep 10, 2015 11:59:30	I agree. NPCs will act as written - an NPC cleric of Kelemvore will not hesitate to slay PC undead. The issue isn't NPCs - its PCs. PCs should metagame their responses so that they aren't being unfairly disruptive to any other character. This applies equally for all characters - a necromancer PC, and a Kelemvorite PC should both metagame their responses. The Kelemvorite player should tolerate a handful of temporary PC undead, but would be well within their rights to ask the undead to be destroyed at the end of the day. The Necromancer player should be sensitive to the Kelemvorites distaste of undead, and only summon them sparingly in a situation of dire need. Summoning them as often as possible is not being sensitive, nor is having an army of them.
#27 RCanine Sep 11, 2015 0:21:15	Kalani wrote:
#28 Kalani Sep 11, 2015 0:31:05	Yep... Drama doesn't mean being a jerk. Drama is perfectly fine, so long as everyone follows the rules about getting along, which are convieniently found on p4 of the ALPG, and also reinforced on p22 ALPG p4 wrote:
#29 TiaNadiezja Sep 12, 2015 10:30:41	My final answer here: If you can't compromise OOC about how something works IC, don't play characters that would end up on either side of this divide. Don't ay evil or reliant on evil acts, and don't play "unable to abide" any specifically spelled-out PC options.
(Reply to #6) tedrion	TiaNadiezja wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Undrhil

Sep 02, 2015 5:23:38

If I am cast Animate Dead to raise a zombie and another PC continues to use Turn Undead because "they're undead and my god is against that" would that be considered 'disruptive behavior'?

Kahless

Sep 02, 2015 5:50:33

Well, Turn Undead is limited to a number of times per day (but then I guess so is Animate). If he's doing it just to break Wheaton's Law, or using the "that's what my character would do" excuse, then yes, but if you walk into a room full of undead you have to fight and he sets it off, I say that's valid, and sorry about your zombies getting caught in the blast.

imaginaryfriend

Sep 02, 2015 5:56:35

As kahless says, its all about intent and the situation. Just because you have undead buddies does not mean Turn Undead becomes a skill the cleric can no longer use. But using it justo ruin your day (or anyone elses) with a flimsy BS excuse.. that would be disruptive to me.

Mirtek

Sep 02, 2015 7:34:01

I would raising undead a disruptive behaviour, just like always stealing or attacking random NPCs. While i could see the new government of phlan not caring that much about undead, parading your undead through mulmaster IR hillsfar should result in screaming citizens and an angry and well armes group if guards In this particular case there's also the metagame issue since nothing slows down battles like a player having bis own party within the party

Nozareem

Sep 02, 2015 11:54:58

This actually happend with my cleric of Bane vs another players cleric of Kelemvor in mod DDEX1-12. But we both were in character and it made for interesting character interaction between our characters after it happend. There was no PVP but our to characters were at odds for a moment.

TiaNadiezja

Sep 02, 2015 11:59:37

Raising an army (or small squad) of undead is something that can create conflict with other players, so before you start playing a character that does so make sure to keep that in mind. However, there's also no excuse for the cleric/paladin player to go all Lawful Stupid on the necromancer's undead brigade. Everyone handle things like adults, remember that the TSR-era rules about who you can tolerate were removed for a good reason, and find how to stay true to yourr characters without disrupting the table.

TheBreen

Sep 02, 2015 12:34:06

Undrhil wrote:

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 02, 2015 19:34:46

TheBreen wrote:

Kahless

Sep 02, 2015 23:26:07

Yeah, I agree. Metagame the issue and ask the table beforehand if anyone has an issue. If they do, maybe have a Plan B way of playing the character. I'm sure there are plenty of other necromancy spells at that level you can use (or lower level spells you can up to that level).

But yes, don't parade your undead through town. I would think that would also involve some serious NPC reactions.

As for playing nice with others, do what I do with my druid animal companion in Pathfinder Society play. Hold them back so they don't outshine the other players, play them as support, let your tanks and rogues get in there. Then fill in the gaps with your minions. Maybe instead of rolling damage, all they do is use the Help action and kind of cling onto the bad guys. Use them to provoke OAs to get to the back line and harry spellcasters. It doesn't matter if they go down. You can always raise them again.

#10

Tyranthraxus

Sep 03, 2015 0:47:15

Keep in mind that a by the book Cleric of Kelemvor will ALWAYS attack Undead. Part of their divine mandate set by Kelemvor is to make sure that all undead in any form you may find it are destroyed. His list of exceptions probably can be counted on 3 fingers. A Cleric of Kelemvor should not allow a undead to exist and nor should they adventure with anyone who proceeds to create them, even if they are in the same party.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Kelemvor

#11

Kalani

Sep 03, 2015 9:26:11

While that is true in principle - please remember an even more important rule:

"It's what my character would do" is never an excuse

ALPG p22
How do I deal with players of evil characters, or who venerate an evil deity?

Just because a player has a character with a darker side doesn’t mean that player has a license to make the game less fun for others at the table. Players are encouraged to have their characters work together despite their differences; a little competition is fine, as long as it stays fun for everyone involved and doesn’t result in other players getting shut out of the experience. If a DM or another player feels as though a player is creating an uncomfortable situation through the excuse of “it’s what my character would do,” the DM is free to give the offending player a warning for disruptive behavior, and if it persists, ask the organizer to remove the player from the table.

#12

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 03, 2015 12:27:46

Kalani wrote:

#13

Kalani

Sep 03, 2015 13:00:53

Not exactly - if one player creates an unfortunate situation, and another character makes that situation worse by reacting to it in a similarly extreme fashion - both players are at fault for disruptive play.

Lets keep with the examples in this thread:

PC 1: Necromancer
PC 2: Cleric of Kelemvor

Necromancer: Summons a bunch of undead. This by itself is not disruptive. It is how they are used which becomes disruptive. Examples of disruptive play include:

Slow Play: Summoning so many minions that it slows down gameplay / causes the necromancer to spend more than 2-3minutes on their turn. This does nothing to enhance the game, as most DMs will simply increase the number of enemies to compensate.
Necromancer Show: Failing to share combat duties and other tasks with other characters. It is fine for the Necromancer to use their minions to wall off a group of enemies and soak some hits - so long as the Necromancer remains mindful to leave enemies for the other PCs to engage (esp. melee characters). The necromancer should also make certain to share the enemies fairly and not hog all the "boss" monsters themselves. Your party members are not minions whose job is to clean up rabble. Everyone should work together.
Slaughter and revive: This is an issue if the necromancer kills prisoners or NPCs that the party wants to question/keep alive - solely for the purpose of adding more minions to the list.
Logistics: Using minions as obstacles to prevent PCs from sharing in combat (ties into one-man show); carts laden with dead bodies; etc. The Necromancer should always remain mindful of positioning, and give

It is fine to summon a handful of minions if the opportunity presents itself (and it should frequently). It is entirely a different thing to summon overwhelming numbers of minions so that it becomes the Necromancer show.

Cleric of Kelemvor: I gave some examples on how the character can work with a PC Necromancer above. Examples of disruptive play include:

Attacking NPC undead when it is clear (from a metagame perspective) that this is a non-combat encounter, esp. if the NPC would constitute an unwinable fight (eg. Archliches, the Vampire Zhentarim contact, etc). The character should instead attempt to convince such characters to end their unnatural existance, after which they can either be raised, or let their soul rest (diplomacy).
Attacking PC undead just because its something your character would do.... Instead, you should secure promises from the PC necromancer that the undead will be destroyed after completing a short-term goal.
Anything suicidal involving undead, esp. if it is likely to draw unwanted attention that might result in a TPK

#14

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 03, 2015 13:53:44

Kalani wrote:

#15

Kalani

Sep 03, 2015 14:08:09

Evil =/= disruptive

It depends entirely on the context, and how it affects the other PCs. Evil characters are perfectly legal in AL (providing they are of the correct faction).

Torture, murder and theft are all evil acts as well - yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that.... If killing a cultist in their sleep means you don't have to fight them later, it may be a very practical act, but nonetheless evil (as you just killed an unarmed and incapactitated foe unprovoked).

#16

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 03, 2015 17:01:26

Kalani wrote:

#17

Tyranthraxus

Sep 03, 2015 18:25:55

I do run a Cleric of Kelemvor. He hasnt seen much action but I make sure I always check out who else has signed up to play and Ill purposely swap out the character if anyone does sign up with a pro undead character. Id prefer not not play the character, than compromise the story and canonicity of the character.

#18

FarBeyondC

Sep 03, 2015 20:37:38

Undrhil wrote:

(Reply to #14)

FarBeyondC

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

#20

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 04, 2015 10:41:42

FarBeyondC wrote:

#21

SteveMND

Sep 04, 2015 11:58:26

FarBeyondC wrote:

#22

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 04, 2015 13:07:25

SteveMND wrote:

#23

Malthorn

Sep 05, 2015 3:43:29

Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

#24

Mommy_was_an_Orc

Sep 05, 2015 14:27:31

Malthorn wrote:

#25

Pauper

Sep 10, 2015 11:18:23

What you are saying when you say that one character can create undead with a spell and another character who is defined as worshipping the god devoted to the destruction of undead can't do anything about it is mechanics trump story.

Let's ignore for the moment that in Season 1, choosing to play a cleric of Kelemvor could itself be a mechanical decision, as Kelemvor's temple was the only functioning one in Phlan. Instead, let's point out that, in Season 1, there are at least two adventures where, if the party shows up with undead in tow, the NPC responsible for handing out the adventure hook would probably destroy the undead before even speaking to the PCs, and should thereafter be very suspicious of their motives for wanting to take the mission. Would the DM be 'being disruptive' in this situation?

SteveMND points out the 'episodic living campaign' aspect of AL, and that's reasonable, but I'd counter that the difference between a living campaign and a series of unconnected monster brawls is the story beats that connect the adventures. The admins have worked to provide those story beats, through recurring NPCs, through events that tie different modules together (for example, the moment before the bar brawl in DDEX 1-2 when the party gets to encounter all the significant 'villain' NPCs from DDEX 1-5 and 1-6, without realizing what they are plotting), and through simply providing a consistent environment that reacts to the party in certain ways. To claim that the NPC high priest of Kelemvor wouldn't destroy the necromancer's zombie servant because the PC is a 'special snowflake' is just as damaging to the living campaign aspect of AL as it would be to replace a recurring NPC with a generic one simply because you as DM don't like the recurring NPC -- you are depriving players who enjoy the backstory behind the campaign of the opportunity to fully experience and enjoy the backstory, and you are making the game less fun as a result.

Don't do that. When it makes sense, let story trump mechanics, so that everybody can have fun, not just the people who care about mechanics. The alternative is a game where nobody cares about story and everybody makes choices based on mechanical efficacy, which is supposed to be something we're trying to avoid this time around.

Pauper

#26

Kalani

Sep 10, 2015 11:59:30

I agree. NPCs will act as written - an NPC cleric of Kelemvore will not hesitate to slay PC undead. The issue isn't NPCs - its PCs. PCs should metagame their responses so that they aren't being unfairly disruptive to any other character.

This applies equally for all characters - a necromancer PC, and a Kelemvorite PC should both metagame their responses.

The Kelemvorite player should tolerate a handful of temporary PC undead, but would be well within their rights to ask the undead to be destroyed at the end of the day.
The Necromancer player should be sensitive to the Kelemvorites distaste of undead, and only summon them sparingly in a situation of dire need. Summoning them as often as possible is not being sensitive, nor is having an army of them.

#27

RCanine

Sep 11, 2015 0:21:15

Kalani wrote:

#28

Kalani

Sep 11, 2015 0:31:05

Yep... Drama doesn't mean being a jerk. Drama is perfectly fine, so long as everyone follows the rules about getting along, which are convieniently found on p4 of the ALPG, and also reinforced on p22

ALPG p4 wrote:

#29

TiaNadiezja

Sep 12, 2015 10:30:41

My final answer here: If you can't compromise OOC about how something works IC, don't play characters that would end up on either side of this divide. Don't ay evil or reliant on evil acts, and don't play "unable to abide" any specifically spelled-out PC options.

(Reply to #6)

tedrion

TiaNadiezja wrote: