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| #1Jay_Ibero_911Aug 26, 2014 6:54:43 | Is there anything in AL that would prevent an Necromancer PC with this spell from raising a personal army of undead to bring from adventure to adventure? |
| #2UndrhilAug 26, 2014 8:32:20 | Of course, this is *not* an official answer.
Necromancy is evil magic. Villagers will start being leary of PCs who are walking around with a personal army (or even just a general army) of undead. I would think that might make it difficult to get jobs. The Zhentarum might be the only faction which will have this PC as a member.
I don't think I have read anything in the AL Player's Guide which restricts PC from practicing the necromantic arts, however. In fact, that would seem to be a very limited thing since it means that no one could play a Wizard of the Necromancy School and still actually focus on Necromancy spells. |
| #3TheBreenAug 26, 2014 10:03:56 |
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| #4VeleriaAug 26, 2014 14:30:57 | I don't see a problem with them creating undead as there are some schools of thought that the bodies are just parts once the soul escapes to meet Kelemvor. I would apply disadvantage in social situation with persons who do not feel that way and I would require the player to expliain where they find corpses without breaking laws. robbing a cemetery is illegal but raising goblins you just defeated in combat could be fine. most important is to consider the enjoyment of the table as a whole including the necromancer and rather than say no turn it into an opportunity to let the players interact with the world and each other. |
| #5IxidorRSAug 26, 2014 14:57:32 | I'm surprised they allow this but specifically call out the Death Domain. Poor clerics of Kelemvor. |
| #6MirtekAug 26, 2014 15:38:12 |
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| #7TyranthraxusAug 26, 2014 17:47:59 | Yeah Kelemvor despises undead which is why when he first came in, he made sure his Priests targeted the former undead loving followers of his predecessor. |
| #8greyhobbit13Aug 26, 2014 19:47:44 | ok, so a 20th level Wizard could create 83 undead in a day if they use all of their 3rd level and higher spells. Each spell slot can allow you to maintain control over 3 more undead than it creates. So that sets an upper limit of....128 I think. That is pretty good. I think the best control against this is that if you are walking around with 128 zombie hobgoblins, you will probably attract a lot of attention from clerics, paladins, and fireball casting wizards intent on showing you the error of your ways. Plus, the more undead you have, the less spells you have to use for other things. Plus, unless you are immune to disease, all the rotting flesh can't be good for your health. Probably why only liches try this sort of thing. I think I would allow it and see how the budding deathlord dealt with natural consequences. |
| #9DragonofFireAug 26, 2014 21:31:04 | First of all, animate dead is no longer evil, it has nothing to do with evil, unless a DM at a table wants to say no for no reason. If you want to use a slot every 24 hours that is the adventurers prerogative. As for disrupting another players fun, I am not sure how you could say that casting a spell is causing someone else to not have fun. Now in 4th and 3rd edition where the spell was evil (which I never understood, especially with trap the soul not being evil...) \end side rant.
If the 17th level necromancer wants to go to war with his 130 (number off a bit) CR 1/2 or 1 minions and that is all he does except cantrips, I am going to let him, it's a waste. |
| #10PromAug 26, 2014 22:17:41 |
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| #11UndrhilAug 26, 2014 22:27:59 | Animate Dead and its ilk were not considered "evil" in 4th edition.
But I believe Necromancy *is* considered evil in 5e again. Might want to look at the description for the School of Necromancy and see what it says on the matter. |
| #12PromAug 26, 2014 23:05:34 |
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| #13TheBreenAug 26, 2014 23:09:22 |
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| #14TyranthraxusAug 27, 2014 0:07:48 | 1) a bible? whoa.. thats different.
2) I dont think this is going to happen too often. |
| #15MirtekAug 27, 2014 6:43:50 |
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| (Reply to #10)Hailrobonia |
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| #17UthracAug 27, 2014 6:52:07 | When I sit down at a table to play an adventure, I'd like the 4 hours I've budgeted to play the game to be about ... the adventure.
I do not want the DM spending lots of time focusing on a PC who has undead sidekicks ... any more that I want the DM focusing on character quirks of any PC derailing the adventure.
I also don't want to sit through a PvP discussion as to the morality of using undead when the rest of us at the table would prefer to play the adventure.
(To be fair - and not pick on the necromancer - in past editions I did not enjoy playing with summoner-druids whose turns would take 25-30 minutes.)
In general, it's best to avoid character choices that will impact the enjoyment of the game for everyone at the table - not just the DM. If everyone else is fine with undead minions, no harm no foul. Personally, I don't care one way or the other - as long as it doesn't significantly impact the game for the rest of the table. |
| #18TheBreenAug 27, 2014 7:09:24 |
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| #19SkerritAug 27, 2014 7:17:16 | <admin hat off>
As a side note, the only major religion in Phlan is Kelemvor, and they send you, or help you, in many of the adventures. They are famous in Phlan for their war against the undead of Valhingen Graveyard that was so through they turn it into a temple and picnic spot. One of the adventures mentions some of the Kelemvorite commandants and the FIRST is to not suffer the undead.
So whether animate dead is an evil act or not, it seems like roughly half your adventures will end in about 15 minutes when the temple of Kelemvor attacks your necromancer and refuses to have anything to do with the PCs (thus never telling you about the adventure they were going to send you on in the first place). The idea of an undead army leading necromancer is probably not the best character idea for the storyline.
</admin hat back on> |
| #20AtheosisAug 27, 2014 10:58:21 |
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| #21AtheosisAug 27, 2014 11:04:44 |
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| #22TheBreenAug 27, 2014 13:45:15 |
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| #23MirtekAug 27, 2014 14:31:28 |
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| #24VeleriaAug 27, 2014 14:54:00 | Is the bible hollowed out? That would be an excellent dice carrier. |
| #25IxidorRSAug 27, 2014 14:57:48 |
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| #26TheBreenAug 27, 2014 14:58:33 |
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| #27mvincentAug 27, 2014 16:23:38 |
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| #28MirtekAug 27, 2014 17:28:06 |
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| #29Archon007Sep 01, 2014 10:36:45 | As a GM who just ran at Pacific-con I wouldn't allow it. It is considered an evil act and while not against the AL rule of LE player it goes against the spirit of the rules of fun when most players are playing LG, NG, or CG character and that would just created in party complications and fighting which is against AL rules.
however, I also run a private AL group who are all LE The Zhentarim members and that works out great. |
| (Reply to #13)Sorxores |
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| #31TheBreenSep 02, 2014 15:39:16 |
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| #32DragonofFireNov 23, 2014 19:27:36 |
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| #33TyranthraxusNov 23, 2014 19:37:10 | Speaking as a player who HAS a Necromancer and IS using A Zombie and a Skeleton in Part 5 of the Hoard AL Postcounters game I can say that so far they havntb been too usuable. Generally thng things iVe been fighting now would obliterate a ZOmbie and Skeleton. |
| #34VobeskhanNov 23, 2014 23:55:01 | I think that the Animate Dead spell in itself isnt "evil", just dependant on how its creations are then used.
Evil wizard or priest rasing an army of the undead to subjegate the living - Evil.
Non-evil caster raising a skeleton or zombie as a guardian for a loved ones crypt - not evil.
Wizard that wants an unquestioning butler, raises an orc the party fought as a zombie - unpleasant but not necessarily evil.
Animating the body of a fallen comrade while in a dungeon/wilderness to get it back to a temple to be Raised - again, unpleasant but not intentionally evil. |
| #35Lord_ToastNov 24, 2014 6:02:15 |
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| #36Rich14Nov 24, 2014 10:12:20 | Game Mechanics I have to agree with the point that recasting the spell evey 24 hours is going to limit the number of creatures (4 per 3rd level slot if I read the description correctly). So a 5th level character could come up with 5 critters, and 6th the character could in theory get up to 13. I am assuming that the character takes Animate dead for his 3rd level slot and recovers (at 6th level) Animate dead during a short. Basically the character can have 1 more undead than 4 times his spell slots. Did I get this right?
Game Balance? I am not sure Zombies and Skelletons are going to much more than foder by 5th level and the situation gets worse every level of play thereafter. I suspect taht they will get torn up in the first encounter and that will end the problem. I suspect that by 8th or higher game play the undead hord will be a slight speed bump.
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| #37DyndrilliacNov 24, 2014 11:14:54 | Any attempt by any DM to prevent me from using any material from the Player's Handbook that isn't already explcitly disallowed in an AL game would lead to me filing a formal complaint with the organizer and me not playing at that DM's table again, even if that means I don't get to play at all. The whole point of organized play is consistency, so no matter where you are located you can use the PHB and the ALPG to put together a legal character to play at a con or a store-organized event. Some fluff text about how people are stupid and fearful of things they don't understand is not a valid excuse to prevent me from playing a legal character. That's just a DM deciding to be a dick because he can be a dick. |
| #38PauperNov 24, 2014 11:23:58 |
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| #39TyranthraxusNov 24, 2014 17:52:46 | Indeed. My Necromancer is running in the Hoard Postcounters sessions. Not the expeditions (Im the only GM of Expeditions around here so I run all of them). In Phlan it would be next to impossible to have a Skeleton or Zombie in toe. Any of the investigation scenarios would be ... tricky with a Skeleton or Zombie in toe.
When you leave the city however
so Shadows over the Moonsea Tales Trees tell Drums in the Marsh
and so other occasions then I would have no issue with it. |
| (Reply to #37)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #40)Dyndrilliac |
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| (Reply to #41)Lord_Toast |
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| #43PauperNov 25, 2014 7:24:31 | Let's be clear -- I don't see that asking the DM to enforce the conventions of the game to be an outrageous use of totalitarian power. Actually, I hope we get some kind of clarification that DMs can in fact enforce things like the Church of Kelemvor actually being hostile to undead, because thus far based on adventure info, a new DM might get the impression that the Church of Kelemvor is just a bunch of gardeners who look askance if you steal from the dead, but won't really do much about it.
This goes back to Living Forgotten Realms, in fact -- in that campaign, there was an entire story area set in a region where the Church of Torm held sway, and was protected by a Companion that had been provided by Lathander just before the Spellplague. Not only was the church said to be hostile to undead, but the Companion itself gave off energy that was damaging to undead. Then WotC started releasing undead races for PCs to play, and the staff had to make a decision -- do we restrict undead characters from this story area, or do we allow them? The choice was made to allow them, in order to let people play, and as a result the rules for the Companion and the Order of Torm meta-org changed so that not only could undead PCs join this anti-undead organization, but the Companion itself was watered down so much against PC undead that it wasn't even much of a role-playing restriction. While this was great for people who wanted to play undead paladins in the Order of Torm, I knew of more than one long-time player who left OP as a result of these changes, realizing that WotC seemed to have no interest in maintaining the integrity of their setting, especially their most beloved and best-selling* D&D setting.
If the goal is to try to bring old players back into the fold using the new edition and the new OP campaign, actually enforcing setting canon would be a good place to start.
-- Pauper
* - I remember attending a convention during the D&D 3.0 era where WotC employees were doing a Q&A, and someone in the audience asked about publishing more Greyhawk material while dissing the Forgotten Realms. One of the folks on stage commented that the questioner might not care for FR, but the sales spoke for themselves -- each FR book outsold any Greyhawk product by a 10:1 margin. If restoring the 3.0-era Realms is supposed to bring these people back, then they'll expect to see a Realms that looks like the Realms in the source material. |
| #44SkerritNov 25, 2014 10:31:30 |
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| (Reply to #44)Pauper |
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| #46SkerritNov 25, 2014 12:56:32 |
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| #47SpykesNov 25, 2014 20:35:12 |
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| #48TyranthraxusNov 25, 2014 20:59:21 | This is a very interesting topic.
The issue here is how much knowledge of the settings and gods .. in this case Kelemvor does the dm have?
It could be that the person is a pretty new dm and honestly dosnt know much about Phlan. So their exposure to FR lore is what they read in either scenarios or the website. Never assume that any particular dm is spending time outside of the game researching the setting. They might not have time, they might have no interest in doing so. So what they know about Phlan is what the expeditions authors are telling him inside the scenario. Should there be a section on 'Kelemvor and undead' in a sidebar.. then sure they are going to see it. But if there is nothing there, they might learn that Kelemvorites have turned the graveyard into a picnic zone and destroying the undead.
A GM could link that that Kelemvor hates undead or they might not. As a fr setting person, I know that Kelemvor does indeed hate the undead. But Ive been exposed to the setting since the 80's. Thats not everyone and one day Ill be in the minority. Do I expect a new dm to go look at candlekeep or buy a 3.5 FRCS? No I dont. Thats something they will do if and when they want to.
One of the biggest issues for me is that there is not 5e FR setting book. Thats not Roberts fault nor Skerrits fault or anybodys fault associated with Adventurers League. People end up operating on a old knowledge of FR and sometimes that can cause an issue.
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| #49SpykesNov 25, 2014 21:15:57 |
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| #50TyranthraxusNov 26, 2014 0:04:31 | To be honest, this material really has no place being in the Players guide. That item should only include rules for making characters, dispute issues, some dm advice and a brief overview of the setting.
Familarity of the setting will only come with a 5e FRCS and even then it will be years before people have read such a tome front to end and the information is disseminated out there. The simply fact of things is that a lot of players are going to be more knowledge about Kelemvors likes and dislikes than quite a few of their dms. |
| (Reply to #46)Pauper |
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| (Reply to #51)Dyndrilliac |
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| #53DragonofFireNov 29, 2014 0:52:19 |
For example,
If you are playing a necromancer at a public event then see the DM at your table before the session starts. One, they will let you know if it is a good idea for that particular adventure. Two, they will probably ask the other players if any of their character would have an issue with a necromancer casting a spell that is not considered a ‘good act’. (Both in the rules and in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting) Three, inform them you plan on using animate dead multiple times to raise a small army. Finally, prepare to have your character audited if you plan on raising a small army. The DM will be checking to see if the character cast the spell. If so, how many undead can they summon? etc…Also, it is the polite thing to do before the adventure begins.
I have audited people who casted spells they didn’t have access to….and I helped correct some players who forgot they had bonuses to their die rolls or reminded them they had a magical item that would be extremely helpful in the adventure.
The problem is you are playing a sanctioned AL game and fluff is not a rule. If I bring a legal character to the AL table sure you can look at it, but even as a DM you cannot tell me I cannot play it the way I want if it is a legal character, and that I am evil because I choose to cast a spell with no mechanics based on that interpretation of fluff I also understand the DM has rule 0 in his favor, but much like any dictators in the last 50 years, you abuse that power someone will take it away from you. I will always respect the DM but if you change the parameters of something that should be able to work but doesn't because of your own prejudices I will have a problem with you.
Disadvantage on social rolls, certain clerics disliking you etc, are fine as punishments for walking around with a corpse, but if you focus on that rather than the adventure as an AL DM you have already failed. You should also when a player introduces himself and his character explain to him that you will be putting focus on that during the role play side of things give her a chance to swap tables. |
| #54Lord_ToastNov 29, 2014 14:06:47 |
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| #55NoonNov 30, 2014 1:22:39 |
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| #56TheBreenNov 30, 2014 14:43:19 |
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| #57NoonNov 30, 2014 15:20:08 |
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| #58UndrhilNov 30, 2014 20:39:09 | Unless an adventure prevents the Necromancer PC from leaving the city, there is nothing wrong with him or her keeping the undead "army" out-of-site outside of town. Just order them to stay still or bury them or something. Just make sure you keep up with the time and recast your spell when you need to in order to maintain control on them. If there is a small army of undead outside of town and they don't show any sign of being with your group, the guards will just dispatch them (if found) and be done with it. Or the guards will die. Either way, no one can link the army of undead to the necromancer PC.
So, the real answer here is to be a role-player and play the role of the Necromancer, who is not likely going to flaunt his necromantic arts at such an early stage, especially around any temples (Kelemvor or otherwise) or townsfolk, unless his plan is to insight panic. In fact, a Necromancer is going to go out of his or her way to keep the undead out of town and away from prying eyes, until the army is large enough to actually pose a threat to the city ... and will then try to take over the city. And might die trying, or might just pretend to be with the good guys, since all he has to do is tell the undead army to attack and then go back to town and pretend to help fight them off. Undead see him as their master and might go out of their way to avoid him, but there can be all kinds of fluffy reasons for that. |
| #59TyranthraxusNov 30, 2014 23:41:51 | Which is again, is why its easier to run such a character in Encounters/postcounters than Expeditions. The City of Phlan features in a lot of stories. Whereas there is a lot of overland travel in Hoard. |
| (Reply to #52)Pauper |
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| #61UndrhilDec 03, 2014 20:33:32 | Again. Who are these necromancers who are walking around with their horde? Stop doing that! Leave the horde a few minutes outside of town until you get your quest, then go pick them back up. Think of it as Day-care for the Dead, except you don't have to pay anyone anything for it.
A Kelemvorite who suspects you are raising undead is the DM metagaming unless that Kelemvorite (or one of his/her associates) actually saw you do it, or you go bragging about it. Don't do that!
Anyone who happens to see you with a horde of undead can easily become another member of your horde: just think of it as preventative maintenance... like how you feed your horse and keep it groomed. Of course, killing people outright is an evil act (as is ordering your horde to kill them), so let them attack you first, and then it's self-defence.
If you are in a position where you need to hide your undead horde for a few hours, just give them all shovels and order them to bury themselves, somewhere away from town and prying eyes. This is the Sleep of the Undead and it works wonders on the fields, since they are essentially turning the earth for the farmers who will come out the next day and scream HALLELUIAH! at this fortuitous turn of events.
Just make sure to collect your undead before the farmers wake up.
Finally, do not Animate Dead in a town cemetary during the day. No. That is unacceptable. Do it at night when everyone is asleep. Make sure to cover the graves back up so no one suspects their Uncle Ferdinand is now serving your glorious do-gooder army of the dead. |
| #62TyranthraxusDec 03, 2014 21:34:40 | My Necromancer left his Zombies outside the walls of Waterdeep when he entered. He actually got them to dig their own graves, lie down in them and then came back every morning to pray at the graves meanwhile casting Animate dead again to keep em 'fresh'. There was NO way he would be bringing Undead into town. Too many eyes and ears asking questions.
Question: Would Zombies get any benefit out of a long/short rest? How do monsters regain hit points? I have the 2 doppleganers from Episode 4 as the Zombies (due to the fact one gave me a massage down by the lack then tried to strangle the character). Im unsure however how they would get hp back if they do at all. |
| (Reply to #62)Lord_Toast |
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| (Reply to #63)Undrhil |
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| #65SkerritDec 04, 2014 6:11:41 |
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| (Reply to #64)Lord_Toast |
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| #67TyranthraxusDec 04, 2014 18:45:11 | Thanks for the replies. One Zombie is down 5 HP, the other is 'unblemished'. Perhaps this WOULD be a good question to ask the FAQ or elsewhere on the rules for monsters HP replenishing.
Anyway, back to my original point, My Necromancer is basically using the Zombies as Minders. He knows in a concentrated attack that they will die easy, but they MAY give Varon the Necromancer enough time to go on the attack. Also his sentimental connection to the 2 Dopplegangers is there, so if possible he would like to keep them around.
Question:
In regards of the ability of animate dead to within reason perpetually keep the same undead around, if you cast the spell again on creatures already .. animated.. would this restore them to 'full' health.. ie you are replinishing the magic holding them together? |
| (Reply to #67)Lord_Toast |
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| #69PauperDec 05, 2014 7:37:26 | This would seem like a good candidate for the Recommended Rulings. Here's what I've got so far.
I'm a necromancer with some undead minions created via animate dead. When I cast the spell to renew my control over them each day, do they regain full hit points?
No. The spell says nothing about healing undead creatures.
So how do undead creatures regain hit points?
Most spells that heal adventurers cannot be used to heal undead creatures -- the aura of vitality spell is the only healing spell that doesn't contain the boilerplate 'this spell has no effect on undead or constructs' language of other healing spells in the Player's Handbook, but that's an oversight and has been corrected via errata. It's also true that spells that, in prior editions, would heal undead by manipulating negative energy (inflict wounds, harm), do not do so in Fifth Edition.
Some undead creatures can regain hit points via their own abilities: for instance, the vampire has regeneration, and can also regain hit points by using its bite attack. However, for undead which lack a self-healing ability, there are a number of possible interpretations:
- Undead do not regain hit points via short or long rests.
This ruling is defensible in the sense that, traditionally, healing during rest times has been considered 'natural' healing, and undead aren't natural, so they wouldn't regain hit points by resting. In most cases, this ruling won't have much impact on monsters, since undead monsters aren't likely to survive their encounters with adventurers, but if for some reason a group of undead were damaged by a party which then retreated, the party could regain hit points via rest, while the monsters would not if this ruling is used.
- Undead regain hit points as other creatures do when taking a short or long rest.
It's true that traditionally, undead don't receive the benefit of natural healing. However, there isn't anything in the Fifth Edition rules specifically that would prevent undead from receiving the benefit of short or long rests. (This becomes significant if there are any plans to allow undead PCs.) It should be noted that, in Fifth Edition, there really aren't any 'mindless' undead -- zombies have minimal human intelligence (3), while skeletons are even more intellgent (6). As such, it would make sense that these creatures take rests to regain hit points when they are damaged, even if not specifically told to do so.
Currently, the expected ruling in Adventurers League is 'undead regain hit points as other creatures do when taking a short or long rest'. Undead have hit dice, as other creatures do, and can spend them during short rests to recover hit points lost due to damage, then regain those hit dice during long rests taken by the party.
Curious to hear what people think before adding these to the Recommended Rulings.
-- Pauper |
| (Reply to #69)Lord_Toast |
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