The situation:
I brought this up in another thread, though back then it was more about how NPCs ought to react to a necromancer wizard PC and his minions. This time I'm looking more at combat and party interaction.
He's a lawful evil Zhentarim, level 6 after DDEX1-10 and 11. With the Silent Shroud scattered from Valhingen, he pretty much has free access to bodies. Per the spellcasting downtime rules, he can spend downtime to cast spells and effectively start an adventure with a small army of skeletons. His plan is to use all his higher level spell slots to animate undead, and reassert control over them as needed.
We ran through Dark Pyramid last week, while he was in control of 8. It made combat a little tedious, especially with the tight corridors, and having even more minions is just going to bog things down more. The good news is, he and I have a good DM-player relationship with mutual respect and a desire that everyone at the table has fun. This undead army is his idea of fun, but he understands it's not necessarily fun for me or the rest of the table. Unfortunately he can't respec, since he had to reach level 5 just to see how it would play out. He's willing to limit his use of the spell to ensure combats run smoothly, though we both feel this cripples one of his class features. Kind of a raw deal.
I just want to ask what has been the experience of other DMs and players with this spell in AL. Would you consider it disruptive play if the horde drags out combat so long that the expedition module can't be finished in time? Do you think necromancers have a strong enough toolkit without their level 6 feature? Has use of the spell caused party conflict with good characters? Again, this player is highly cooperative and doesn't want to create an unpleasant experience for others, and will metagame a reason to avoid conflict. Still, I hope to hear some examples of this spell in play, and how it panned out.
Well, I've got multiple remedies, each based upon the player's experience, the DM's experience, and whether the DM is permitted to adjudicate in such a way, given the strictness of Adventurer's League. First is group rolling. Roll multiple attacks simultaneously, since they're all from the same creature with the same statistics. Just take notes of when things change. (I.E. when a Zombie gets Disadvantage or whathaveyou) Second is Player rolling. The PC controls the zombies, have the player make their rolls and control their actions. That way, depending upon how quickly the player can do it, the game can go smoothly. And third is to just have things go how they have been. The player and party will improve and learn how to procedurize the process so it takes less time.
Are players allowed to take advantage of the average damage mechanic? Hordes tend to run well with grouped/simultaneous attacks and average damage.
I think I see the misunderstanding that has lead to your situation. The allowed downtime activities are: catching up, crafting, faction benefits (vary with season), practicing a profession, other activities (found in a particular adventure), purchasing spellcasting services, recuperating and training. I assume your characters are attempting to use the purchasing spellcasting service to do this in your game, but the only spells that can be cast/purchased this way outside of a game are found on the table on page 12: Cure wounds, Identify, Lesser restoration, Prayer of healing, Remove curse, Speak with dead, Divination, Greater restoration, and Raise dead. Animate dead is not one of them and you cannot use the Purchasing Spellcasting Services downtime to cast it (though I understand how someone that wanted the ability to have an army of undead could read the second paragraph in the sidebar to see it that way.)
I will see about updating the next FAQ with this information and put it on the list of things to reword for season 4's PG.
Greg Marks
DnDAL
Skerrit wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
You cannot cast spells "before the adventure begins" as spellcasting is not a valid downtime activity. The L6 necromancer would need to cast animate dead during the adventure (and would only be able to animate corpses found within said adventure).
The list of legal downtime activities are as follows:
- Players Guide: Crafting, Practicing a Profession, Recuperating, Training, Downtime Catchup, Spellcasting Services, Rank 3 Faction Benefits (Mulmaster/Hillsfar)
- Website: Members of the brotherhood of cloaks must spend 3 Downtime Days at the end of each Mulmaster adventure (S2 Expedition/Epic) performing Cloak duties.
- AL FAQ: Scribing Spells. Wizards, Warlocks with the book of ancient secrets and characters with the ritual casting feat can scribe scrolls using downtime.
- Shopping: Characters can also purchase items between adventures/episodes but "shopping" does not have a specific downtime cost and therefore costs 0 downtime days unless otherwise stated in the adventure.
Spellcasting, research, and other such activities are not included in the list of available downtime activities. Characters must cast all spells during the adventure.
For Example: I have a character who knows Leomund's Secret Chest. I cannot cast this spell during downtime, but I can cast it while travelling from one location to another within an adventure. I would need to inform my DM that I prepare and cast Leomund's Secret Chest during the trip from X to Y locations (assuming the trip takes more than 1 day to complete).
I believe that is the full list, but if I have missed any - let me know.
ovinomancer1981 wrote:
As it does specifically say that you can have other party members cast spells for you during downtime (though it is mostly referring to things like Raise Dead and the Restoration spells in the examples it gives), I'd argue that downtime casting is perfectly legal as long as you pay the appropriate prices.
Now, if that example was meant to imply that you could only have party members cast spells for you that appear on the Spellcasting Services chart, that's rather a different thing altogether.
Burning downtime to keep spells up is not on the list of things you are allowed to do (to prevent just such abuses like the animate dead situation). And how would the character know when the adventure is going to happen so that they could do it right before hand? The PC could cast it right at the start of the adventure (assuming he had the bodies), and he'd have his undead, but no spell slots. Nowhere does it say you can cast spells outside of an adventure by spending DT, other than the brief mention in the Purchasing Spellcasting Services.
Ainulindalion wrote:
Skerrit wrote:
Kalani wrote:
The way I understand it:
No time passes between adventures/episodes unless you spend downtime performing an activity.
- The next adventure starts the following morning (requiring players to pay maintenance costs of their active spells at the start of the adventure).
- The reason a new adventure starts the following morning, is because you are assumed to have full HPs and resources at the start of each new adventure (but not each new episode).
- If playing an ongoing adventure - the next episode occurs immediately after the completion of the previous episode (with not even a short rest between them).
If you spend downtime performing a legal downtime activity: I see no reason why you cannot also maintain your active spells during that same downtime activity.
Even if you maintain these effects, your DM is under no obligation to honor ongoing effects (eg. awaken, animate dead, leomund's secret chest, etc) from a previous adventure. They may do so if they choose, but they are not required to.
The reason for this is simple:
- What happens at one table has no influence on a different table / adventure.
- DMs may choose to allow things to carry over from one table to another, but they are not required to (the only exception to this is in Expeditions, in which the PCs may have interacted with X or Y NPC in previous adventures, which is specifically stated within the adventures text).
Just because one DM allowed you to summon an army of undead during an adventure, doesn't mean the next DM is compelled to honor that arrangement - nor can you always prove that such an event happened (as the DM only has your word to go on).
CahPahkah wrote:
Hey Op, spend all that unused gold you collect on oxen and carts. Then collect all the corpses throughout all your adventures and have them noted in your log: Bandit corpse X Y Z from EXP 2-2, skeleton A, B EXP2-3. Troglodyte X. You will have pleanty! When the next adventure starts find out the immediate adjenda driving the adventure, then at the first oppertunity animate all dem' dead bodies ala warcraft 3 and march your legion of doom to the nearest dungeon. For laughs do it in secret, then sit around the fire with your party the night before entering while your horde of death clears out the entire dungeon while your party is sleeping. The next day enter said dungeon and see how far they got. Dont forget to collect the old and the new bodies for the next adventure.
...kidding.
Kalani wrote:
You can't cast summon familiar between adventures. Once cast however, your familiar is permanent until killed. FF also has an expensive component which should be mentioned in your log. While DMs are not required to honor your familiar - I have never heard a case of a DM taking issue with a previously summoned familiar.
It still needs to be cast during an adventure however- just like any other spell including animate dead.
In addition: there is also the fact that FF is a ritual and that it does not require anything outside its spell description to operate (such as a corpse or animal to awaken) As such, it requires no DM input in its resolution.
Animate dead and Awaken both require information the DM cannot easily verify at the table in addition to the expenditure of finite resources.
As far as carryingnl corpses on a cart goes - if it's not listed as treasure in an adventure or on the equipment list in the PHB: the DM is not obligated to honor it at the table. If DMs are not obligated to honor winter clothes or 4-person tents; they certainly aren't under any obligation to honor the pile of corpses you have amassed.
There's no issue of porting the undead between DMs. My group is very regular with an occasional drop in, but the regulars don't play at any other tables. Personally, I wouldn't allow a drop-in to arrive at my table with an army of skeletons either, but this situation is wholly within my purview, and won't affect other tables. Worst case scenario is someone playing a holy roller character drops in, but the necromancer player has already assured me his character would be too weary of casting animate dead around those types.
Re-reading the downtime spellcasting services, I can see how the language used implies only the spells on the spellcasting services list are available for PCs to cast using downtime. Using this interpretation just seems like a really contrived way to prevent abuse. The player of a bard character might say he uses magic to augment his performances for the Practicing a Profession downtime activity. It's a fluff description of using magic during downtime, yet creates a situation where one person can cast spells during downtime, and another can't. If more explicit language makes its way into ALPG v4, and players are to abide by the implied language of the current version, so be it. It's not the only instance of organized play creating bizarre restrictions.
Regardless, it doesn't prevent the raising of the army. If the character doesn't send his minions into the fray to be demolished, and especially if each next adventure is assumed to take place the next day, he can raise more undead and reassert control over his minions from the previous adventure. It might take longer, but he can still end up with his horde. There are also a few adventures where the party is permitted a long rest, and/or which require days of travel (e.g. Dark Pyramid is 4 days travel from Phlan). The cart full of bodies could come into effect here.
Nevvur wrote:
You are correct. I amend my previous statement to state that your next adventure is assumed to begin
- After an unspecified period of time of at least one (or more) long rests.
This is the only way to account for the fact that all characters are assumed to be at full HPs and have all their daily resources refreshed prior to the start of the adventure. WIth that being said, as per the Player's Guide:
A character still affected by diseases, poisons, and other similar effects at the conclusion of an adventure can spend downtime days recuperating until such time as he or she resolves the effect to its conclusion (see the recuperating activity in the D&D Basic Rules). If a character doesn’t resolve the effect between sessions, that character begins the next session still affected by the debilitating effect.
imaginaryfriend wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Honestly, I don't. I would prefer it if players were unable to perform spellcasting services using downtime, and were instead forced to use them at the start/end of the session instead. Then again, I have yet to see this list varied in 3 seasons to date. The list is identical in all three player's guides, as well as each of the 30 odd Expeditions released so far (and all of the expeditions I playtested for season 3 as well), so at the moment - this is a moot point.
The spellcasting services are available in any large settlement (but may be absent in small towns, villages, or hamlets). The only thing that seems to vary is whether acolytes can gain the benefit of their discounted spellcasting services or not (which is dependant on whether their god has a temple/shrine/etc in the area).
CahPahkah wrote:
CahPahkah wrote:
As a DM in a continuous play experience.. i.e. home campaign, I would not get it either, and I would never enforce anything like it. OP is not that continuous, there is whitespace between adventures. And yeah it creates some weirdness. With the same group, running a multi chapter adventure, I would certainly allow effects and even animate to carry over because I agree it akes more sense. But with expeditions and the nature of changing party composition. Nope.
Also, if 99% of the time casting during downtime will not matter, then 99% of the time the restriction won't matter. So right now 99% of the time it takes no time, effort, extra book keeping or an (very likely to be ignored) exeption list to deal with troublesome spells. I doubt any other way of dealing with this will boast such efficiency. Changing this rule will require continuous effort if only in evaluating new spells for problematic interactions with downtime, effort that 99% of the time will be wasted.
If effort is to be spent here I would think it better spent once on improving the language and providing reasoning.
Noted on this spell not being an option to cast with downtime days.
When 24 hours has passed since animate dead was cast, the undead are no longer under his control, but the magic animating them remains, and he can reassert control over 4 of them at a time. Let's say at the end of one adventure, he locks his minions up in a secure location. They would remain inactive, unless disturbed by the living. At the start of the next adventure, he casts the spell to reassert control, and the army is ready to roll out once again. The clarification on the downtime rules is appreciated, and I'll be sure to use them moving forward. However, this doesn't prevent the undead army from being a possibility. As with the example above, and in the case of multi-day adventures, there's plenty of opportunity to make the horde happen. If I may direct this conversation a little, I'd like to hear more from people who have actually dealt with necromancer PCs and their minions (as DMs, the necromancer's player, or a party member).
I'm highly proficient at running combats, even with dozens of actors. However, there's a finite amount of time you can trim, especially since we're playing on a grid. I do all the rolling for the minions, because I'm quicker at the math, and we can skip the hit confirmation conversation between player and DM. He still decides what they do, as per the spell description.
I don't think anyone is saying you can't create an army of undead. You just can't create an army before an adventure, take a long rest with DT and start an adventure with your army and all your spell slots.
Even if you do put your undead in a secure location - the DM is under no obligation to let you reassert control as the undead were not created at their table and therefore can exist (or not) as they see fit.
The DM might allow you to reassert control or they might say "no sorry...." Both are valid and you will simply have to accept table variation between DMs.
Either way - the DM has no way of verifying whether you cast this spell in a previous adventure or whether your undead were destroyed and as such, you are at the current DMs mercy whether it is allowed or not
If you are fortunate enough to have the same DM across multiple sessions/adventures - you have a far greater chance of them honouring events that happened in different adventures/sessions.
Ultimately however - this falls down to something the rules do not cover and is therefore a DM call.
I have personally disallowed a 5-headed wyrmling dragon at my table that another DM had given a character (just because). I have also seen DMs which honored an animal friendship spell that I had cast on a baby direwolf in Shadows over the Moonsea - and other DMs which didn't (as they could not verify this fact)
So let get this straight my Red Wizard Necromancer who has a entourage of undead skeleton body guards and servants hooded and with weopon that follow their master where every he goes is not legal in AL? I did not know most DMs understand that is part of that character he would not just wait to find dead bodies to animate. It seemed reasonable that he would have undead with him like they have been featured in several novels past. It's not abuse it's part of character. But if it's not legal than thats it I'll have to change the way he is played even though most Necromancers Red Wizards from Thay always have undead protecting them...? Oh well?!
It is legal. It's just that your DM has no way of verifying how many undead you have and as such can make a table ruling about them.
My personal ruling is that if the number is reasonable and the character expends spell slots at the start of the adventure/session to reassert control - I will allow it. But that is my personal ruling and is one I make because I prefer a happy player to an unhappy one.
I would probably draw the line at 4 undead however (the max you can control with a single casting to reassert control). I would only allow it if the player kept meticulous log entries for their undead however.
Sure, you can do it, you just have spend the spell slots to do it. Of course if its an ongoing game like an Encounters table, you DM might rule that spell effects are carrying over and I would see nothing wrong with that since you don't really "finish" and reappear next week at max hp and spells (sounds like a DM call grey area). But if you are going from Expedition to Expedition, no, your undead don't follow you. The last time this came up was a 9th-level necromancer who showed up at a table having spend every 3/4/5 spell slot to create (24) undead for 1 DT, and then controlled the big pile (3 3rd-level slots from him and 3 slots from his cleric friend). You can imagine the rest of the players were not pleased when his turns took an hour.
Skerrit wrote:
Cool, thank you for that info! Yall had me worried. I have another question that I have not done yet but have been wondering could I upgrade my minions armor by buying them better armor and shields or long swords instead of auto short sword. I've been wondering if I could do this for a few months now and this is the perfect threat to ask this question on ?
As I said - starting an adventure with 4 undead is fine if they are willing to spend a slot to do so. Any more - they will have to summon during the adventure. This assumes a new player to my table in Encounters.
Expeditions? You start with zero.
If I am running an ongoing adventure - I allow players to keep spells/undead/etc between sessions but only the ones gained in previous sessions of the same adventure at my table.
Nevvur wrote:
Nozareem wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, the OP was really more concerned with how to handle a potentially large number of "extras" who work for/belong to the PCs. My recommendation: group initiative for like minions, use averages for HP and damage instead of rolling. It's fast, simple and easy to show that there's no favoritism.
---- ----
On the separate, but also interesting topic of having pre-cast spells, the issue as I see it is one of having both the effects of your spells (e.g., undead minions, or Continual Flame "flashlights," or what-have-you) without the "cost" of expending any spell slots. Where does one draw the line? In Living City, characters were allowed to choose to have one spell of 3rd-level or less from a pre-defined list already active at the start of play. Was this arbitrary? Of course. But it was deemed to be the best compromise between not allowing any pre-cast spells at all, and letting "anything go."
Imagine the difficulty of writing and judging adventures that take into account parties with no pre-cast spells as well as parties with unlimited pre-cast spells. What's the big deal about an area of Darkness, if the party has hundreds of pebbles with Continual Light (now Continual Flame) already cast on them? How do you write a combat encounter that's able to treat "unaccompanied" parties the same as parties with a dozen or more undead fighting for them? How about traps? Something that's 100% lethal to an unaided party could be completely trivial to a party who could send in an undead that's immune to cold, poison, etc.
What might make no sense in a home campaign with a consistent DM/adventure author and group of PCs can sometimes be absolutely necessary for a campaign where the DMs don't write the adventures, the authors have no idea what PCs will be playing, and the players may be moving from one DM to another every time they play.
TheBreen wrote:
Anthraxus wrote:
Luckily Ive yet to see anyone play a Necromancer bar me in my games 
PC 1, 2 and 3 go on an adventure together....at the end of the adventure, PC 1 casts Fabricate to create Plate Armor for PC 2, using
pc 2's resources. PC 3 casts animate dead on a bunch of corpses...
Next session all 3 PCs sit down at a new table...One guy wearing his plate armor, and the other has a bunch of skeletons...What happens?
The idea that someone can spend downtime days and NOT be able to cast their own spells but can pay other people to do it for them is a bit absurd.
Are players allowed to copy other players' spellbooks? How does copying spells work with downtime?
Yes, characters can copy spells from found spellbooks or other characters’ spell books. If the DM allows in game copying go by the rules in the Player’s Handbook. If it’s out of game, copying can be done with downtime at a rate of one downtime day for up to 8 hours of copying. (FAQ 3/20/15).
Which downtime activity are they using, exactly?
Byakugan01 wrote:
Byakugan01 wrote:
Actually, no - that is not the point of the Necromancer at all. 5E is a game that is very conscious about action economy. As such, classes that break said action economy should only do so to a reasonable limit. Controlling an army of undead is logistically problematic, and destroys the action economy completely.
It is also highly disruptive for one player to take 10-30minutes for each of their turns while the other players are left waiting for you to complete all of your minions attacks. The more minions you have, the more you relegate your party members to onlookers and unnecessary baggage - which is a highly selfish and unfair way to play.
If you are maintaining control over more than a handful of minions, and you notice your party members growing bored - you should cut back on the number of undead you maintain. To do otherwise would be considered disruptive play.
This is not the necromancer-show.... It is a game whereby each character should have an equal share of the fun. As such, each player's turn should (on average) take 1-2minutes at most, with the occasional turn taking longer due to a big effect. This keeps the game moving and keeps everyone engaged.
Not only that, but incredibly large armies of minions also destroys the encounter design. In order to challenge your army of minions, the DM needs to adjust the number of enemies to compensate (as AL DMs are only allowed to add/subtract enemies, not substitute them). The end result of this arms race is encounter length grows. Long fights that drag out become stale and boring, and waste considerable time.
Time management is important (especially in Expeditions) - and your army of minions doesn't make the combats easier (just longer, as the DM compensates by increasing the number of foes). As such - animate dead should only be used sparingly. It's ok to keep a small handful of pets under your control (and replace them when they go down), but summoning an ever-expanding army should be left for NPCs - not players.
A primary design goal for 5E was to give characters their primary tools early in their career (1st-3rd level).
- If a necromancer's primary schtick was to create an army of the dead - they would gain this ability at 2nd level. Not only that, but the description of the Necromancer makes little mention of animating hordes of the dead (that is an evil NPCs job).
- It mentions the exploration of life/death/undeath, and learning how to manipulate/harness/sap/control the energy that animates all living things.
The Necromancer's primary schtick is to inflict injury, sap an enemies vitality, prolong life, and otherwise feed off your enemies lifeforce. Creating/controlling undead is a secondary function of the subclass (as it comes online at 6th level).
If the creation/control of undead was the necromancer's primary shtick - it would come online at 2nd level.
- The game would grant them the ability to temporarily animate one or more corpses to aid them in combat (after which they would crumble to dust) as their 2nd level feature. Balanced alongside other L2 tradition features, such an ability might animate a single skeleton or zombie; allow you to command the skeleton as an action; and have the skeleton/zombie last until you take a short or long rest, after which you could animate an additional skeleton/zombie. At higher levels, this ability would improve - either making your skeleton/zombie more powerful, allowing you to create more in a single use; grant multiple uses/rest; or allow you to conjure more powerful undead (eg. ghouls).
Such is not the case.
TheBreen wrote:
Another possibility is using hit fractions... it's a math idea I saw somewhere that uses a table to determine how many of a creature would have to attack before one would be expected to hit, and automatically has that fraction of them hit each round. It's quick and painless - if every third skeleton would hit, divide the skeletons by three and do damage.
It's much better to make a thing work than to ban it.
If I have learnt anything in my decades of gaming - simple math is never simple at the game table. If hit fractions were introduced, there would be numerous people who would get into "math paralysis" in which case, they would count (and recount) how many creatures they have, and would agonize over how many of their minions to send against X, or Y target. The more enemies on the field, the more such players would agonize over how best to divide up their forces and the more times they would recalculate their hit fractions.
Trust me - I have seen similar results in 3E and 4E, with some players calculating and recalculating their Attack Bonus every attack (despite nothing changing). They engaged in such time-consuming behavior because they lacked trust in their own math skills, and believed they might have missed/added a +1 modifier somewhere. They could not trust the total on their character sheet, and felt compelled to add up each and every micro-bonus on every attack, and then re-add them to double-check their math.
This was compounded in 4E, as characters not only had permanent micro-modifiers, but also had a lot of temporary micro-modifiers due to the numerous status effects in the game.
5E has largely done away with micro-modifiers in favor of the much more intuitive advantage/disadvantage mechanic. The only micro-modifiers that still exist are those for cover (all other modifiers are static). I would hate to see micro-modifiers returned.
Thanks to everyone for the discussion and feedback.
Honestly, I think the clarification on the downtime casting rules is more important than I initially gave it credit. Earlier I expressed some concern about it not outright preventing the horde, but as I envision how this is actually going to play out, I realize it is a significant barrier to reaching the minion capacity, and my concern diminishes.
I'm already good at running combats with large numbers of actors, and I appreciate some of the ideas put forward to further streamline the process. I don't think I'll need to implement them, but will keep them part of my DM toolkit if needed. Tomorrow is DDEX1-12, I'll be back with a report on how our necromancer fares.
Yeah this thread opened my eyes on the how Find Familliar needs to be cast at the begining of each session if we're following the rules to the word, but maybe not the spirit. It's a bit bizzare but 99% of DMs will handwave that minor issue. With all the gold lying around (Though it is much less so for Wizards.) I suppose the ten gold tax a game isn't the worst, and at best you can just make a note in your log? "I paid 10 gold and cast Find Familliar to summon a toad, until noted otherwise my familliar is alive and well."
Ghaliyah wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Ghaliyah wrote:
Ghaliyah wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Kalani wrote:
what if PC 2 LOANS PC1 the 750GP in materials....and those materials get turned into say...armor...at the end of the materials which are now a suit of armor go back to PC 2.
We aren't talking about transfering wealth, or even creating it....It costs exactly as much as if someone had crafted the item themselves, except faster.
Byakugan01 wrote:
Ghaliyah wrote:
The main problems with Fabricate have been discussed before....basically the spell is so poorly defined that it requires a lot of DM adjudication.
But the market price of Plate armor is 1500gp...costing 750gp to craft(or Fabricate). DMs deciding it requires 3+ proficiencies to make stuff, for example. Or deciding 'raw materials' do not exist in the game world, cuz AL.
Skerrit also said it was OK to Fabricate spellbooks, however nobody knows how much that actually costs....RAW u can copy a full spellbook for 5gp worth of 'raw materials', since a filled spellbook is worth exactly the same as an empty one. Spellbooks break the normal rules for treasure, since they are mundane items that can be kept. Because of this, they could actually be put in at several places where mundane treasure is called for, but no DM actually does this...cuz wizards BAD!.
I prefer a much more no nonsense approach to the spell, however that would be house rules.
And I apologize for the hijacking, but the Animate dead discussion was in a similat vein....more specifically 'arbritrary rules that make things more complicated instead of less'.
players can share the costs of material components if they agree to...simple, easy, dont have to backtrack and reference or memorize a list to figure out.
players can share the costs of material components, but only on this specific list, and only if they spend downtime on it, or maybe they don't have to spend downtime but the list is the ONLY spells they can do it for, but also there is a 'similar magic' clause which could mean anything so better ask the DM. Or maybe they can only share the cost if they are IN a town with enough people, we're not really sure but we really like rules!...not simple.
While you can fabricate a spellbook, you cannot expect the spells inside to work for anyone but the original caster/owner of the spellbook. Its the process of scribing that makes the spells usable by a wizard. They have their own esoteric shorthand and all. If you reread the thread (and the rules on spell scribing) I am fairly sure you will find Skerrit did not say you could use fabricate to skip the scribing cost. And for as fas as I know you cannot.
Correcct. You could create a spellbook, you couldn't create the spells inside it.
Nevvur wrote:
Glad to hear. 4-6 minions should be manageable. The goal is to have your turn take only a few minutes so as not to bore other players.
Kalani wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
Personally (and like mounts), I think the risk of a necromancer ruining adventures by carting along an army of minons is fairly overblown. If a cadre of 6 Int undead creatures that take double damage from falls:
- Aren't as much of a social hindrance as they are a combat benefit and
- Survive the environment and skill-related challenges and
- Aren't evaporated by an AoE spell or trap
…then the issue is with the adventure, not the mechanics. This weekend I played three expeditions, including the season 2 epic, and in them:
- We were sneaking around town trying to avoid the attention of the guards; having an army with us would have gotten us killed
- The environment included all kinds of passive damage that would have killed them.
- The necromancer's army would have been useless within the first half an hour.
Sorsohka wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Nevvur wrote:
That's where you are wrong. They aren't equipment (even if treated as such by the character) - they are NPC creatures (by the rules). A mount is treated more like equipment than undead minions are - as mounts are in the equipment section (for convenience and because they are purchasable).
. Even then, they aren't equipment either but noncombat NPCs (due to the mounted combat rules).
I don't know how many more times they're going to need to beat the horse.
You CANNOT cast your own spells during downtime, period.
If you feel like this is something you do not like, please contact customer support and let them know how you feel about it.
However, as it stands now, you cannot and have not been able to do so.
Ravix wrote:
Kalani wrote:
So, let me get this straight.
The issue you have with the Necromancer using Animate Dead to create an army of undead is action economy in combat. Correct, Kalani?
Then I counter that all Summon and Conjure spells as well as Animate Objects be stricken from spellbooks in AL as well, as they can create a large number of NPC creatures which have to be managed during a PCs turn. Animate Dead and Create Undead are not the only two spells which can create an "army". Granted, they are the only two which can create a 'permanent' army, but still, if the only problem is with action economy, stop focusing solely on animate dead.
It's the permanence factor which only gets worse with each day that they are not destroyed. Most conjure spells have a short duration of 1min or so and so are only around for a single encounter.
Even despite this most of them are heavily sanctioned in AL due to the FAQ ruling limiting what can be summoned (animate dead and create undead are unaffected by this ruling).