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| #1RCanineMar 14, 2015 21:04:51 | The new requirement that PCs being their career with a starting package based on their class offends my sense of creativity. It reinforces tropes and completely limits players from legitimate class builds. I'd like to enumerate those options here as examples of why this is a bad practice.
The obvious response to this thread, "the character can just buy it after their first adventure." To that my answer is: why penalize a player for being creative? If you must penalize a character, what's the benefit to the game of forcing them to both pay extra gold and suffer through an adventure with a character equipped with items they wouldn't want to buy? What's the point of granting racial weapon proficiencies if they PCs aren't allowed to equip them selves with such weapons at character creation?
I already recommend players avoid first level via DM rewards because it's not very fun. All this new rule does is make it less fun to be a first-level character.
Barbarian Sword-and-board barbarian is verboten Elven barbarians cannot start their careers with longbows
Bard Dwarven and Elven bards can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race.
Cleric Clerics of the war domain can't being their career with practically any of the weapons they are proficient with Dwarven and Elven clerics can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Clerics cannot begin play with a two-handed weapon
Druid Dwarven and Elven druids can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race.
Fighter Fighters with 14 dex can't start play in medium armor A great weapon fighter has to buy a shield he can't use A dex-based crossbow fighter has to buy a longbow he doesn't need and can't have quarrels A small dex-based fighter must choose between disadvantage on stealth checks (in chain mail), or disadvantage on attacks (with a long bow)
Monk A crossbow- or sling-wielding monk can't begin with ammunition Dwarven and Elven monks can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race.
Paladin A paladin that begins play with a ranged weapon cannot have ammunition A dexterity-based paladin must begin play in heavy armor
Ranger Dwarven and Elven rangers can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Rangers can't, at first level, have a shield Rangers can't, at first level, have a two-handed weapon Halfling & gnome rangers can't start their career with a short bow A Drizzt-emulating ranger can't, at first level, have a scimitar (let alone a pair)
Rogue Dwarven and Elven rogues can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Longsword-using rogues can't buy one at first level Human Crossbow Expert rogues can't have a hand crossbow Mountain dwarf rogues cannot start their career in medium armor
Sorceror A dart-wielding sorceror must only have one Dwarven and Elven sorcerors can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Mountain dwarf sorcerors cannot start their career in medium armor
Warlock Dwarven and Elven warlocks can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Mountain dwarf warlocs cannot start their career in medium armor
Wizard A dart-wielding wizard must only have one Dwarven and Elven wizards can't start their career with weapons granted to them by their race. Mountain dwarf wizards cannot start their career in medium armor
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| #2Coredump00Mar 14, 2015 21:43:36 |
DnD boards: Where people go to practice turning molehills into mountains.
First, do you *really* think there is someone lamanting the tiny hurdle for their 'dart wizard' concept? Second, You complain about 'reinforcing tropes' *and* complain because elves can't start with elf weapons..... isn't that another trope? Third, you have complaints in there like "fighter starts with shield", so drop it at the side of the road. This isn't a *problem*.
Finally, you need to read more instead of complaining... the ALPG says you can purchase items from the PHB list. Most backgrounds come with 15pg. Just about every one of your 'problems' can be solved with 5-10gp or less. |
| #3FrogReaverMar 14, 2015 21:47:43 | I'm with rcanine on this. |
| (Reply to #3)Lucas_Blackstone | I agree with the OP also. It's kind of dumb to be foreced to have gear it makes no sense for your character to have, instead of gear they would use. |
| (Reply to #4)FrogReaver |
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| #6NevvurMar 14, 2015 23:34:20 | Didn't notice this is the new AL player's guide. You can still sell your starting equipment for half price, in addition to the background starting gold. Still not enough for your longbow barbarian, but most of the others are covered.
I don't think enforced starting packages is a change for the better, but it's not something I'm going to lose sleep over.
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| (Reply to #6)FrogReaver |
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| #8Enevhar_AldarionMar 14, 2015 23:38:25 | Pathfinder Society fixed this kind of thing by having all the characters, regardless of class, start with the same amount of gold on character creation. But they also banned all the traits and feats and whatever that gave characters extra starting gold, so that no one would have a couple hundred gold advantage on everyone else.
As for AL, I think I can see a LOT of noble backgrounds being created for Season 2, seeing as how that comes with an extra 25gp. |
| #9NevvurMar 14, 2015 23:41:31 | lol, 10 or 15 GP is not worth a skill package you won't use.
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| #10RCanineMar 14, 2015 23:47:44 |
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| #11RCanineMar 15, 2015 0:05:41 | So in order to not be a negative nelly, I'll propose a new starting item pack for every character:
Equipment You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
These starting items are of inferior quality and may never be sold for gold. |
| #12caecafortunaMar 15, 2015 5:02:41 |
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| #13NoctaemMar 15, 2015 6:32:23 |
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| #14UndrhilMar 15, 2015 8:31:38 | Clerics get "a shield and holy symbol" as part of their equipment package. Also, while not strictly a two-handed weapon, the warhammer option available to the Cleric is a versatile weapon which can be wielding in both hands.
Is there a rule in the ALPG that says that characters cannot sell their starting equipment during character creation?
Did you actually go through and read the class equipment packages or are you just throwing things together and assuming they don't work? |
| #15KalaniMar 15, 2015 9:17:00 | The Admins are allowing the LCs to sell starting gear for the pregens and purchase new gear. I think that is proof positive that we should let PCs sell off their starting gear.
Caveat: To prevent players from rebuild grinding for GP, any gold earned from starting gear cannot be saved during rebuilding. The only treasure that your PC keeps when rebuilding is anything earned in an adventure and recorded on your logsheet.
I personally have my PCs record the sale of any equipment on their logsheet. In season 2, I will make certain they mark such sales as "sale of starting gear" or longbow (starting gear) 25gp. |
| #16ZHDarkstarMar 15, 2015 10:04:47 | I second the idea of having players log all of their major transactions, either buying or selling. It makes it easier for DMs to understand why a player may have gained more gp in an adventure than normal or explain a gp loss. Going purely based on gp gained/lost entries is inaccurate, as some characters may have RP-based spending habits, like my Nature Cleric/Ranger who spends 2 sp every morning on a gallon of ale for breakfast. |
| (Reply to #16)Undrhil |
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| #18KalaniMar 15, 2015 10:36:36 | I am extremely meticulous with my own logsheets which have entries such as the following:
First Entry (not counting DM rewards)
Another entry on the same character has the following:
I don't expect my player's to be that meticulous, but I do expect them to record transactions.
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| #19RCanineMar 15, 2015 10:40:00 | Added an issue Kalani describes with fighters.
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| #20BRJNMar 15, 2015 10:40:08 |
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| #21RCanineMar 15, 2015 10:43:49 |
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| #22ZHDarkstarMar 15, 2015 11:51:49 | Somehow I get the feeling that the only solution that will make everyone happy is a constant starting gp, independent of class or background. The items from starting packages that have no monetary value (like the Soldier's insignia of rank) would be the only things that AL characters can keep. |
| #23KalaniMar 15, 2015 12:13:35 |
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| #24jacobrhMar 15, 2015 12:11:56 | Players Handbook. Chapter 5: Equipment, page 143 When you create your character, you receive equipment based on a combination of your class and background. Alternatively, you can start with a number of gold pieces based on your class and spend them on items from the lists in this chapter. See the Starting Wealth by Class table to determine how much gold you have to spend." |
| #25KalaniMar 15, 2015 12:17:59 | We know about that. That passage no longer applies in respect to Organized Play. It still applies in respect to existing Season 1 characters, but new characters (including new ToD characters) must use the following:
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| (Reply to #25)jacobrh |
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| #27KalaniMar 15, 2015 12:36:17 | As Greg Marks has explained, the decision came from HQ because they wanted to allow PCs to easily swap their starting gear when rebuilding their character. |
| #28ZHDarkstarMar 15, 2015 15:37:55 | While I still feel that the starting package issue needs some fine-tuning, the reality is that it really only affects characters starting on Episode 1 of HotDQ or LMoP. Every Expedition so far has begun in a town where only the stingiest of DMs won't allow PCs to buy the proper gear for their build. Hopefully PotA Episode 1 will not be as much of a cold open, in TV terms. |
| #29cannonfodderMar 15, 2015 15:56:02 |
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| #30KalaniMar 15, 2015 16:00:13 | You get your class and background starting packages. Each background package comes with a small amount of gold. You can use that to purchase additional mundane items. Any treasure you get, could then be spent on improving your equipment. |
| #31randlMar 15, 2015 16:10:20 | Another option is to voluteer to DM the first week and when you start your character you will have plenty of gold for the build you want. |
| #32KalaniMar 15, 2015 16:23:25 |
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| #33Enevhar_AldarionMar 15, 2015 16:49:40 | Since we are on the subject of starting gear, has there been a discussion anywhere on these forums about the variant Entertainer: Gladiator background? You can replace the musical instrument with an "inexpensive but unusual" weapon. The examples are trident (5gp cost) and net (1gp cost). Musical instruments range in cost from 2gp to 35gp and the Entertainer gets an instrument of their choice, so would you rule that the Gladiator could choose any weapon up to 35gp in cost? Or is that price not "inexpensive"? And what defines "unusual"? Gladiators used a lot of shortswords, but those are by no means unusual. is there even any official list of what qualifies as "inexpensive but unusual" besides the the trident and net? |
| #34KalaniMar 15, 2015 16:55:12 | Using the trident and net as an example, it should be a weapon that is not typically wielded. It might have the stats of a typical weapon, but be reflavored to be something else for example....
You might have a tiger claw (dagger) strapped to your arm, or a cestus (club?). You might use a wickedly curved spear and aspis (shield), or an asian weapon like a nunchaku (club), or a tetsubo (great club). You might wield a crescent sword (scimitar), or anything else you can imagine within the rules. |
| #35FarBeyondCMar 15, 2015 17:37:42 |
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| #36KalaniMar 15, 2015 18:21:03 |
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| #37CahPahkahMar 15, 2015 18:40:08 |
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| #38FarBeyondCMar 15, 2015 20:15:40 |
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| #39RCanineMar 15, 2015 23:53:54 |
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| #40KalaniMar 16, 2015 0:34:24 | I don't know what you have been seeing - but I can state for the record I have never seen anyone (other than myself) purchase trade goods out of starting gear. And that is out of over 80 AL characters I have had the pleasure of reviewing this season, and includes a couple guild artisans too I might add.
Most people just seem overly focused on equipment that grants them a mechanical edge (weapons, armor, tools, and mundane gear such as mirrors, healer's kits, and the like).
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| #41PauperMar 16, 2015 7:48:41 | I suppose the reasonable alternative would be to go back to the original system, but not allow retraining.
I also suppose this is just further material for the file marked 'any game improvement can be interpreted as a penalty if you try hard enough'. The idea that a particular build is 'gimped' because it doesn't have all of its applicable gear immediately at character creation is...interesting. I wonder if the same logic can be used to suggest that evocation wizards are gimped because they don't get fireball at level 2?
-- Pauper |
| #42RCanineMar 16, 2015 9:07:49 |
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| (Reply to #42)Pauper |
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| (Reply to #42)Coredump00 |
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| #45KalaniMar 16, 2015 11:22:58 |
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| #46Enevhar_AldarionMar 16, 2015 11:25:27 |
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| (Reply to #41)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #45)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #36)Undrhil |
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| (Reply to #48)Undrhil |
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| #51ZHDarkstarMar 16, 2015 12:30:31 | The proliferation of Goodberry has replaced the need for tracking rations. Thrown weapons are not damaged, and thus recoverable after battle. The only time the thrown weapons could be lost are if the enemy escapes or the body is disintegrated/falls into inaccessible area. 50% of expended ammo is recoverable and Mending hijinks have allowed the other 50% to be repaired. As for paying for lodging, most adventures have a tendancy to comp the room and board for any in-town days. |
| #52KalaniMar 16, 2015 12:35:26 |
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| #53KalaniMar 16, 2015 12:43:24 |
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| #54PauperMar 16, 2015 13:40:11 | Spellcasting services (which are explicitly allowed in the ALPG) are basically a subset of the Services section of the PH/Basic Rules. Nothing prohibits you from hiring a hireling, but the DM determines what happens to that hireling if brought into a dangerous area (which pretty much everywhere AL adventurers go counts as). The DM could also rule that abusing the hireling (having him open doors to check for traps, for instance) will cause him to abandon you.
Untrained porters have the advantage that they can go pretty much anywhere a humanoid can go, without running the risk of being eaten by kobolds if left behind for a combat encounter. (Or at least not as much of a risk.)
-- Pauper |
| #55KalaniMar 16, 2015 14:02:52 |
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| #56Enevhar_AldarionMar 16, 2015 14:17:56 | I would rule the hireling would behave the same way as the retainers from the Noble background variant option. They will not fight for you, will not go into obviously dangerous situations, such as dungeons, and if you treat them poorly, they will leave you. |
| #57KalaniMar 16, 2015 14:40:49 |
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| #58BRJNMar 16, 2015 14:43:19 |
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| (Reply to #52)Coredump00 |
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| (Reply to #56)Coredump00 |
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| #61KalaniMar 16, 2015 20:47:38 |
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| #62RCanineMar 17, 2015 0:54:48 |
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| (Reply to #62)Coredump00 |
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| #64UndrhilMar 17, 2015 18:09:20 | A wizard can "live off the land" for spell components, if he or she is lucky. I mean, for one level or even just for one adventure? I'm sure there are some spells which don't require material components which they could use before being able to buy a focus or component pouch. |
| #65abanathieMar 18, 2015 13:07:55 |
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| #66KalaniMar 18, 2015 13:10:30 | Princes of the Apocalypse begins in a peaceful settlement with a large number of shops. I see no reason why the players would be unable to sell their goods in Red Larch even in the event that a DM was being a stickler for the rules. |
| (Reply to #65)Undrhil |
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| #68KalaniMar 18, 2015 21:52:55 |
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| #69RCanineMar 19, 2015 1:04:49 |
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| #70KalaniMar 19, 2015 1:13:49 | Unless you are only picking the expensive options, it isn't a tax. Even then, that will result in a fighter picking both the longbow and crossbow - one of which is likely to be sold (the crossbow nets you 12.5g, compared to the 2 handaxes which net you 5g).
Besides, what halfling would purchase a longbow anyway... |
| #71UndrhilMar 19, 2015 6:35:22 | I think that's the point of his question: why would a halfling starting out, have a 50gp Longbow, when they could have bought a shortbow for half that amount and still had 25gp for other purchases. Essentially, the extra 25gp is a tax for playing a Halfling Fighter with this setup.
However, there is nothing stopping you from picking up a Shortbow and Hand Crossbow with your "one martial weapon and a shield or two martial weapons" pick. |
| #72Coredump00Mar 19, 2015 7:05:00 | If they said you had a choice: * (a) one long bow or (b) one shortbow.
Would that be a problem for you too? Its works out as the exact same thing.
Just like they give you a choice between Scale Mail or Leather. This is meant as a process for getting the normal starting gear for the class, they were not designing an accounting problem.
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| #73AinulindalionMar 19, 2015 7:48:49 | Fighter Starting Package:
That's a huge potential variation in the starting package already, with a minimum of 83 gp and a maximum of 263 gp available. That's not a 'tax' just because you choose one choice over another.
I'd argue that the ideal solution is that any specific item (any item that isn't open ended) listed in a starting package could be replaced by an equivalent type of item of the same GP value or less, but only at creation or rebuild. The 'monetary issue' goes away, then. |
| #74KalaniMar 19, 2015 9:12:23 | Thanks for those numbers. Assuming you wanted to "purchase" your starting gear, you could always choose the most expensive items each time (263g) and then sell them off.
Selling them would grant you 131.5g to spend on your starting gear (in addition to background gp, so another 10-25g). If you started as a noble, that gives you 156.5gp, which is just slightly higher than 3/4 of your maximum starting gear package.
Depending on if you want heavy armor or not, the most superior starting packages are:
Options ABAA - Light/Medium (Dex)
Options BBAA - Light/Medium (Dex)
Options ABAA - Heavy (Str)
Now, admittedly - this is metagaming to the highest degree, but it is still possible to end up with 3/4 of maximum starting gear. |
| #75RCanineMar 19, 2015 8:45:03 |
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| (Reply to #75)Pauper |
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| #77Enevhar_AldarionMar 19, 2015 9:37:28 |
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| #78abanathieMar 19, 2015 13:37:49 |
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| (Reply to #75)Coredump00 |
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| #80RCanineMar 19, 2015 19:51:57 |
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| #81OraibiMar 19, 2015 22:57:44 | I like the ease of use of the packages, but I wish there were an alternative that allows for more flexibility.
On hirelings, my paladin hired a trained professional (at 2 gp/day) to drive her carriage around for her. Her downtime costs are already 10 gp/day ...
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| #82PauperMar 20, 2015 11:17:59 | Guess you'll just be playing the pre-gens for your new starting characters, then. |
| #83abanathieMar 20, 2015 12:38:42 |
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| #84KalaniMar 20, 2015 12:46:53 |
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| #85abanathieMar 20, 2015 13:04:59 |
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