This may not be directly AL-relevant, but it's killing me so I had to post it somewhere. The following is part of a text I received as a parent of a high school student in our district. The email is about "summer enrichment" courses targeted at kids in the GATE (metally gifted) program, but available to all students. Here's the part that's driving me crazy:
Be a hero, cast magic spells, explore ancient tombs, avoid treacherous traps, solve ingenious puzzles, and battle evil monsters! Students enrolled in this course will learn how to play Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), the worlds oldest and greatest fantasy tabletop role playing game. Each student will choose a character and make life and death choices as their character works with others to face the traps, monsters, and mysteries of a cryptic dungeon. Each of your characters has strengths and weaknesses, and you must work together in order to complete the adventure.
Will you play a clever wizard, a brave warrior, a sneaky rogue, or a devoted cleric? Will you adventure for your own desires or for the good of others? Will you seek treasure, power, or knowledge? Will you bravely face death or run to fight another day? In D&D, you do not compete against other players; rather, you must cooperate with your peers in order to defeat the ultimate that threatens civilization.
The rules of the game will be made available on pdf document for students to read off a tablet or phone. Each night, students will have some kind of "homework" consisting of riddles or puzzles to solve. Dice, maps, and miniatures will be provided. Bring your own sense of adventure, wonder, and camaraderie.
The instructor will be sharing instructions and other advance information to prepare for the class via the student's email. The student's email address will only be used to prepare students for this Role Playing Game class. Students are encouraged to bring an electronic device (tablet, laptop, smartphone) so they can refer to rules.
So it appears that the students will get a copy of the basic D&D rules PDF, but no actual rule books. "Dice, maps and miniatures will be provided," but it doesn't say the students will keep them. The course runs from 8:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m. (4 hours) for five days—twenty hours in total.
The best part? The cost of the course. It's $340 (USD) per student. To learn D&D. With just the basic rules. And they're serious.
I can only think of one FLGS within the geographical boundaries of our Unified High School District, and it doesn't seem to be in on the action (based on the name of the course instructor). No product sales. Just "instruction." I told my son that if he's interested, I'd teach him how to play D&D and only charge him $100. He wasn't amused. 
Thanks for letting me vent. I now return you to your regularly scheduled, unpaid, rules discussions.
Not sure why people can both go 'OMG, D&D IS SO THE GREATEST!'
But then go "WHAT!!! $17 dollars an hour! What - this activity is NOT AT ALL WORTH THAT!!"
I would say I've spent maybe about that much per hour at a video arcade (remember video arcades, guys?), but good sessions of D&D are better than the arcade. And that was back when there were video arcades - inflation has risen since then!
Unless people are taking it that the joy of D&D is getting something worth more than what they have paid for it.
Granted, I dunno the GM's inclination/skills. It's a gut feeling, but these guys tend to be heavy railroaders - they teach you how to be players that accept the GM playing your character for you, essentially. But he/she might not be.
In theory I kinda like these 'Introduction to D&D' and the fact that its targeting the age group where kids are most likely to pick up pnp D&D. THats good.
Having said that , the price is ridiculous.. or is there a view that is effectively a form of Child care while mum and dad have to work over the summer? If so its actually incrediby cheap for the whole period. Child care costs in Australia for a couple of hours each day are hideously expensive.
I think D&D goes a long way in terms of
A) Problem solving skills
B) Math skills
C) Social interaction.. playing a role
D) Time management
I wish this sorta stuff had been around when I was growing up.
To put it also into context. Im going to a 1 day Excel course (paid for by work) that is costing them $315 AUS for roughly a full working day worth of training. I think that works out to about 8 hours.
First thought - WotC ought to ask for a cut of the money.
Second thought - I wonder if they are actually using 5e? The rules pdf that's being distributed might be the old 4e quickstart rules. If it's 5e, a better scheme would be to hand each participant a Starter Set box (cost included in the fee). That way, they all have a copy of the rules booklet and a set of dice and, after the course finishes, they are fully equipped to go home and play 5e. It doesn't matter that they can all read the adventure booklet - they need to learn how to DM as well.
Noon wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Or we can look at it this way: some enterprising individual transforming their hobby into a job/career. Happens all the time. Just because you wouldn't pay for it doesn't mean others won't/shouldn't.
Ironically, I was having a similar conversation with a non gamer friend (who is studying entrepeneurial business) yesterday. She said - "it's a pity you can't get paid for your experience and knowledge. After 20 years of DMing, adventure design and rules development - you are essentially an expert in the field. In any other industry you could get paid a lot of money for that knowledge".
This person(s) is simply trying to leverage their experience into a career. Can't fault them for that. I see it no differently than putting my kids into a chess camp which would cost about the same.
And this brings us to the main point.
We aren't the target audience.
Non gaming parents, who want to put their kids in a social enrichment activity (instead of playing video games all summer) are the audience. The fact that it also boosts educational skills is a bonus (not the selling point). Getting the kids to interact in a positive, social environment is a major issue in todays society. I am glad that programs like this exist to help get kids out from behind a computer screen, and teach them some social interaction skills (interparty cooperation in this case).
I have considered similar programs for my kids social enrichment over the summer, and will also be teaching my eldest (who is 12) D&D over the summer as well (bringing him along to Encounters on Wednesdays), as I know full well how useful D&D can be for improving social interaction (esp. in light of the fact my son has Aspergers).
Is this even legal? or do you require permission from WotC (and I guess pay them some kind of fees (royalty, or whatever they would be called)?
Can I start such an activity to make money as well? Seems to me like an esay money maker.
In the same vein of idea. can I make Organize Play where I "power level" my paying customer (I run adventures giving the good item for the player, so when I receive my subscriber I split them in group where item distribution will be easy to do, upon signing the contract they accep that magical item will be distributed by the DM (who is there to power level them and give them the best item for there cahracter) Then the DM select the adventure that will provide the best item quality/qantity to the players.
For example start with LMoP skipping the chapter without magical item, and doing only the episode with magicla item, the character wouls end up around level 3 with 4 magical item each, we could add some DDEX for additional magical item (skipping the DDEX with useless item that the party cannot use), some HotDQ, some Princes of the Apocalypse to get player to level 5 with the optimal magical item build possible. and as we gain more and more season, more tier 2, tier 3 adventure, the process could be done to reach all the from tier 1 to tier 4. The payer still need to do the adventure, all the AL rule would be followed (for item distribution rule #1 is if teh party agree to let a party member get the item, then no need to go down to the priority and random distribution).
This could be interesting, specially for those smaller shop where few table are playing, so if the table are doing a tier 2 adventure, and your tier 2 character dies, you need to wait next season for new tier 1 adventure to come up since the table are not going to re-play lower adventure. Such a system would allow such player to gain quickly a caracter level 5 again and be able to join the party.
AFAIK, when running businesses like this - you usually require a special business licence for using another companies product. Failing that, you would at least require purchase of the physical/digital adventure and rulebooks for each table (making pdfs or printouts would be illegal).
It would fall under a similar umbrella to Chess camps, with the exception that this is using a single companies IP. They could easily demand royalties from this if they so chose.
TheBreen wrote:
The problem is - using a contract such as this could be construed as coercion. The parties must still agree at the time of item distribution. Agreeing prior to seeing the item(s) is not worth the paper it is written on.
Furthermore, the act of forcing others to sign a contract, means the game is not a "public" game - it is a private game which the participants have paid for, and signed a contract. As such, it would not qualify for Expeditions, or Encounters - only casual play. Magic item distribution in Casual play is limited to those items found in the published books (HotDQ, RoT, PotA).
This is of course, assuming we also ignore the fact that it violates the spirit of AL, if not the law (as the Expeditions modules are released under limited license).
Legal Preamble at the start of each ExpeditionDUNGEONS & DRAGONS, D&D, Wizards of the Coast, Forgotten Realms, the dragon ampersand, Player’s Handbook, Monster Manual, Dungeon Master’s Guide, D&D Adventurers League, D&D Encounters, D&D Expeditions, D&D Epics, all other Wizards of the Coast product names, and their respective logos are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast in the USA and other countries. All characters and their distinctive likenesses are property of Wizards of the Coast. This material is protected under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Any reproduction or unauthorized use of the material or artwork contained herein is prohibited without the express written permission of Wizards of the Coast.
©2015 Wizards of the Coast LLC, PO Box 707, Renton, WA 98057-0707, USA. Manufactured by Hasbro SA, Rue Emile-Boéchat 31, 2800
Delémont, CH. Represented by Hasbro Europe, 4 The Square, Stockley Park, Uxbridge, Middlesex, UB11 1ET, UK.
Given that WotC expressly allows stores in the Adventurers League program to charge for access, and that this program doesn't even seem to be using the AL structure, I don't see where simply charging money would be a barrier to using the Basic Rules. Given the reference to 'homework', I suspect this is one or maybe more teachers who didn't get summer school work but can still access space in the school coming up with a creative way to supplement their income.
The only issue I might see is that it's a heck of a lot harder to show a difficult player the door when his parents paid hundreds of dollars for him to be there.
--
Pauper
How much is that per credit?
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Again, I see nothing inherrently wrong with the OP. Even the cost is reasonable when compared against similar programs aimed at the same target audience (Parents who want to put their kids in a summer social enrichment program, such as a Chess/Craft/Computer camp). I am not a lawyer, let alone one which specializes in IP law. The only reason I mentioned the possibility of royalties is because it does involve IP, and as such - Wizards determines what their IP can be used for.
Providing they purchased enough copies of the rules and adventures for each table (or used the Basic Rules), I fail to see how this would even be an issue. If they made their own adventures, providing those adventures only made use of the Basic Rules (or any rules they purchased), I again see no issues (in my limited understanding of IP law).
I should probably state for the Record that I don't speak in an official Capacity as LC during this thread.
I honestly don't know whether it would be condoned as an AL event, let alone whether the people running it intended it as such.
In fact, I highly doubt such is the case - as there is no mention of DCI numbers or certificates. That and the fact that this is targeted as a "teaching" opportunity lends me to the belief it will be more casual. At most it might make use of LMoP, but more likely will have custom homebrew mini-adventures (1-2hrs each) designed to showcase the skills they are teaching each day (at least, it would if I was running such an event).
Kalani wrote:
I am with Kalani,
Although we can't know the specifics from the OP, I don't think people generally know what is involved in teaching a workshop/summer camp/class. On the face of it, the class seems expensive, but pointing out that you don't get any D&D books for the fee also shows you are looking at the low priority that a class pricing would be set up for. Random questions when thinking about the class fee:
- Is the person running the workshop an experinced teacher? Are they licenced by the state? Would a parent pay for "Joe Schmoe" DM or "17 year veteran HS math teacher" DM.
- Where is the class being taught? Starbucks? Joe Schmoe's house? A trusted Community Center that has other facilities the students can access after class? How does the community center's liability insurance work? Does the community center require a percentage of the fee to pay for facilities?
- What is the top size of a class? There may have to be more than one Adult DM to run the thing.
- The class runs for four hours a day for a week. How much prep time would this take? How much prep time would this take for people totally new to D&D and may not actually want to be there. How do you make it engaging for everybody? This is different than Dming for a home group or a drop-in convention game. There is more onus on the teacher for engagement.
- How much prep time is there needed to create the puzzles and homework?
- Is breakfast/lunch/snack provided?
- How much administartive work is ther in communicating with parents?
I bring up all these points because I think that the act of teaching is generally undersold in most of english-speaking society. It really is a lot of work once you remember all the details and prep that goes into doing it right. Not that I think that OP is saying this, but I have done a ton of afterschool, summer camp, college, and public school teaching so I can think a bunch of stuff that crops up that could drive up costs.
AL and store outreach is great, but we all know that some people that hang out at the FLGS are the last people you want your child around when you are not there. Jus' sayin.
Primarchx wrote:
QwertyAzerty wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Mr_Greengoat wrote:
I hate to ruin the OP's pamphlet-writer's day, but I did the same thing in one afternoon for the price of a meal, ten years ago.
He Owes Me $$$ Royalties.
I don't understand the whole "I, as a hard working guy, undercut another hard working guys livelyhood *pride!*". I'd get it if it was "I, as a hard working guy, undercut some rich guys livelyhood *pride!*"
I hope whoever the person is, they fill the class and get more kids involved in the hobby. If you are local to this guy, please volunteer to help him as another DM - they might even pay you for it.
Keep in mind also that they did not use any edition reference - they could use the OGL material. Teach not only the current incarnation, but the history of the game as well. Make sure they contact the nice folks at WotC - I would bet money that they would support this 110%... though they may ask for some money out of what's already being charged, it is their IP and they are within their rights to do so.
I've been working for a public school district for over 20 years (in IT) and this shounds shady to me. Who's funding this program (GATE)? Where is the money being made from it going to? Is this a club or a class? States are really the ones in charge of eductaion and, in Ohio (where I live) and based on the information given, this would never fly.
Noon wrote:
My initial assumption is the price is right in line with all of the other courses they are offereing. Basically there is a cost of sending your kid to the district summer program, and it probably doesn't matter much which program you choose. The other programs may not come with books either.
TheBreen wrote: