Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 CahPahkah Dec 07, 2014 12:55:55	There have been hundreds of posts in threads on the Rules Questions and Player Help forums about how Hand Crossbows and Crossbow Expert works with regard to reloading and bonus attacks. This is not one of them.   What I'm curious about is, in a strictly Adventurer's League context, have you encountered a PC with Crossbow Expert at your table either as a DM, as the player in question, or as another player at the table and, if so, how was it handled?   The big questions I have are: Did the DM make any rulings to limit the effectiveness of the crossbow-wielding PC? (e.g., "you need a free hand to reload" or "you only get your bonus attack under [X circumstances]") If 'yes' to #1, was the Crossbow Expert player happy with the ruling, or did it feel unfair? If 'no' to #1, were the other players happy with the level of effectiveness of the crossbow-wielding PC, or did it feel unfair?   I, for one, have never been at a table with a Crossbow Expert, and it's got me wondering if there's some manufactured uncertainty here that's scaring players away from exploring the game options available to them.   So, what have you seen?
#2 sigfile Dec 08, 2014 14:49:32	I have, as the player in question. I've played under four different DMs so far. This has been a non-issue. At best, one DM bumped up the challenge rating of the combats based partially on my character's comparative effectiveness versus "generic level X character."   No. - No problems so far. Made for some fun RP, if anything. To be clear, are you worried about Crossbox Expert itself (no loading property / shoot without penalty in melee / bonus action attack with a hand crossbow), or are you worried about specific builds that use Crossbow Expert in conjunction with other options (CE + Assassinate + Sharpshooter, for example)?
#3 randl Dec 08, 2014 17:57:50	As far as AL goes, the only CE we had was using it to fire his heavy crossbow without penalty while in melee.  As a Ranger, he would eventually the Extra Attack benefit with it.  He had no plans to use Hand Crossbows, so I doubt this really qualifies for what you are looking for.
#4 guachi Dec 08, 2014 20:05:31	A rogue (especially using assassinate) that uses Sharpshooter is showing he can't do math. He's actually worse off in almost all circumstances vs. just boosting Dexterity.   We haven't had anyone use CE but we have had some look at Sharpshooter and go OMG!!! It's awesome!!! One even uses it in conjunction with whatever cantrip gives you advantage on your next attack (and he's not even a Rogue) even if you'd just be better attacking twice than only attacking once at advantage.   If you were playing strict encumbrance rules, CE is pretty great as it means you can wander around with one weapon all the time for every situation. Lots of weight saving just carting around a hand crossbow.   I've had two DMs think I was breaking the rules by using Sentinel on my Rogue and taking a Sneak Attack on an opponent's turn and also firing a bow and getting Sneak Attack (he thought I had to be 5 ft from the opponent). I've also had people think, largely because I'm the first Assassin they've seen, I was breaking the rules getting Sneak Attack on the first round of combat at an opponent not near an enemy while firing a bow. But Assassinate grants advantage on an attack versus a target who hasn't taken a turn in combat, so sneak attack!
#5 Pauper Dec 09, 2014 7:53:33	Yep, the munchkins at our tables seem to prefer Dual Wielder to Crossbow Expert. ("I can take a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow, or to attack with a warhammer? Sign me up for the warhammer!")   I've considered it for an Arcane Trickster, but think I'd need War Caster to get the full benefit.   -- Pauper
#6 CahPahkah Dec 09, 2014 9:55:35	sigfile wrote:
#7 Pauper Dec 09, 2014 11:06:10	It should be noted that there's a section on Crossbow Expert in the Recommended Rulings -- it's not official, but it's a decent guideline (if I do say so myself) for adjudicating Crossbow Expert in AL play.   Questions like yours are exactly the reason the Recommended Rulings exist.   -- Pauper
#8 TheBreen Dec 09, 2014 11:07:51	I had my first CE using hand crossbows in an Expeditions game last night. It worked out just fine; we didn't have strife or uncertainty with the character (so far).
#9 CahPahkah Dec 09, 2014 14:47:15	Pauper wrote:
#10 Hibiki54 Dec 28, 2014 0:39:56	All crossbows have the Loading quality which states "Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can only fire one piece of ammunition when you use an action, bonus action or reaction to fire it, regardless of the amount of attacks you can normally make." This indicates that if you are Fighter 5 and can make two attacks with a Heavy Crossbow, you can only fire once with the Attack Action during that action despite having the ability to make two attacks.   When you take Crossbow Expertise, you completely ignore the Loading quality of crossbows you are proficient. This covers the problem with the above example.   The bonus action attack with hand crossbows can be explained in a similar fashion. "When you use the attack action to attack with a one handed weapon (does not state whether it is melee or ranged), you can use a bonus action to make an attack with a loaded hand crossbow you are holding." The feat indicates that you first must use an Attack Action to make an attack with a one-handed weapon, which could be a melee attack, a ranged attack with a throwing weapon, or shooting someone with a hand crossbow. Hit or miss, you can make a bonus action attack with a hand crossbow as long as it is loaded.   What constitutes as a weapon being loaded? When is a weapon loaded? Crossbows have the Loading quality, which means you can only fire once in any action no matter how many attacks you have in that action. Reloading is sorted under ammunition and indicates that a weapon draws ammunition and loads as part of the attack. This also means that a level 5 PC with the multiattack ability can potentially fire 3 times in a single turn with one hand crossbow, and this is where we should expect table variation.   On side, someone could rule that it is allowed because loading is part of the attack.   On the flip side, someone could rule that after the Attack Action attacks are made, the hand crossbow is not loaded for the bonus action. However, it may still be allowed since you can interact with your weapon as an incidental action to load, then fire.   On another note, someone could rule that you automatically load your weapon after each shot is fired, hence fixing the whole problem that people seem to have with Crossbow Expertise.
#11 Stormborn20 Dec 29, 2014 6:09:44	This is not the thread to debate interpretation.
#12 Oraibi Dec 30, 2014 23:20:15	I've seen it used, and most DMs just shrug and go along with it -- otherwise, some folks' characters will just be unusable.   I'm seeing a lot of hand-crossbow-users due to this feat. It reminds me how spiked chains became common in earlier editions ... and a usual sign that someone was a powergamer who didn't mind cheese. Which is an unfortunate association, as I think hand crossbows are kind of neat.