Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Coredump00 Aug 04, 2015 8:33:28	Various Spoilers...       So.....  it has been my impression that 'wing wear' is basically a gliding suit.  You will glide 30' across as you descend 5' down.  So mostly useful when leaping from a building or cliff, or if you have some air runes around that will push you 15' up into the air.   Is this your understanding?   How does this work if you are standing on the ground? Do you move 30' and then automatically land? Does it not work at all?   In DDEX 2-10 in the Kenku lair, it advises having the assassins use their flight a lot to make them dangerous. How?  Even assuming the flight works, they would have to land every turn, and the movement wouldn't be any different than just walking the 30'.   Is this a minor glitch? Or am I missing something?
#2 Ainulindalion Aug 04, 2015 10:15:30	A wingwear suit grants you a fly speed.  The fly speed is conditional on you traveling 30 feet horizontally on your turn.  That in no way limits your ability to travel vertically.   It was an attempt to make a glider suit that wasn't completely useless for D&D purposes, so it retains the ability to change your altitude upwards as flight.   Otherwise, it's not really any different from a feather fall that allows you to go sideways.
#3 Kalani Aug 04, 2015 10:29:17	You gain a fly speed, which by extension allows you to ascend vertically any distance up to your maximum speed. The only limits on wingwear, is that you must also move 30 feet horizontal or the fly speed ends. The easiest solution is to climb at a 45degree angle (30 feet vertical, and 30 feet horizontal). At the end of your turn, your altitude drops 5 feet regardless of whether you ascended, descended, or remained level in altitude.
#4 Coredump00 Aug 04, 2015 11:13:49	Then why have the 'drop 5 feet' restriction if it is completely meaningless?   I understand the needing to move 30'... but it also says you automatically descend 5'... but if you can go up, that mechanic is completely meaningless.   It also doesn't explain why in the Windmill it says they use the Wingwear and Runes together.... if you can go up and down at will, those runes have absolutely zero benefit.
#5 Kalani Aug 04, 2015 11:24:00	I have no idea as to what the designers intended - but the wording for wingwear allows vertical ascent. In order to restrict vertical ascent, wingwear would need to have a line saying something to the effect of: You gain a horizontal flight speed. You gain a flight speed but cannot use your flight speed to ascend. etc Such is not the case, so nothing limits your ability to ascend vertically. I imagine wingwear functions very similar to a glider aircraft or RW wingsuit. You can ascend on an updraft, and you can also ascend by making a steep dive and then reversing the motion after gaining speed. Sure, you will eventually descend, but there is nothing stopping you from gaining some altitude for a while.    As with any flying target - reducing their speed to 0 causes the flying individual to immediately fall unless they have the hover ability (which few flying creatures have). Wingwear also requires you to move at least 30 feet horizontally, so anything which impedes your movement (such as difficult terrain caused by a strong wind) may also cause you to fall unless you take the dash action.
#6 Coredump00 Aug 04, 2015 11:30:49	PotA p. 83, refers to cultists using the updraft to ascend the pit with their wingwear.  If they can just fly, why do they need to train to use the updraft? p. 223 the description says "to create wings for gliding". p. 252 "cultists can glide through the air using wingwear"   I don't recall anywhere in the adventure that assumes that wingwear lets you gain altitude.  The description is pretty explicit that at the end of a turn your altitude drops 5'....
#7 Kalani Aug 04, 2015 11:41:21	It is explicit. The problem lies in the fact that wingwear gives you a Fly speed but does not place limits on said.   As I said above, it is not clear what the desingers intent (RAI) was when it comes to wingwear, but based on the RAW - a fly speed lets you move in all 3 dimensions.    I do agree that it appears the designers may have intended wingwear to only allow downward movement along the Z axis (without outside interferance), but it doesn't actually say that in the item description. It is also entirely reasonable to assume that the modules references to catching an updraft is just flavor text describing how the air cult uses the wingwear to ascend vertically - but it doesn't mean anything mechanically. Both are reasonable interpretations (especially in light of the fact that there are no rules to cover updrafts that I am aware of).    Wingwear states the following.  You get a Fly Speed You must move 30 feet horizontally each turn or fall You descend 5ft at the end of your turn. ​It says nothing about limiting your movement to only horizontal/downward movements, and as such - your fly speed allows diagonal ascent (as you still need to move horizontally). Heck, it allows pure vertical ascent, but you risk falling unless you dash or only climb a portion of your movement.
#8 Sorsohka Aug 04, 2015 12:21:19	from my understanding in order to stay aloft you need to use 2 move action (using the dash action) since one of your move need to be 30ft horizontal, if you want a vertical ascend you need a second move (or a faster speed like with haste spell)   The rune giving you an up draft of 15ft allow you to gain 15ft without consuming 15ft of movement, allowing you to attack and fly up. But this is just my understanding.   If you start from the ground, then you need both your movement and your dash to move 30 ft horizontal and up to 30ft vertical (if your speed if 30ft and you go 45 degree, you'll do less then 30ft horizontal, so you still need a faster fly speed or use a dash action)
#9 Kalani Aug 04, 2015 12:27:53	You are incorrect as you are thinking 2dimensionally.   When you have a Fly speed, you can move diagonally in 3Dimensions (ZX, ZY, or XYZ) just as easily as grounded PCs can move diagonally across the ground (XY). Diagonal movement does not cost extra in 5E either, so a character could easily move 30 feet vertically (up or down) and 30 feet horizontally (left/right and/or forward/backward) in a single diagonal movement.
#10 Sorsohka Aug 05, 2015 5:36:41	In AL diagonal are 5ft,   in 5e (the rule follow by the Hardcover book creator since they totally ignore AL like it already been stated about the magical item discrepency we see between the hardcover book and the expedtion) player still have the option to use the 2 square diagonal=3 square of movement, wich come closer to reality. The wingwear appeared in the Hardcover and have been created for home game, not AL, so they have been created with Pythagore being real.
#11 DeathMutantLives Aug 05, 2015 8:05:59	In my game, I treated Wingwear like a short-duration jet pack combined with a Wingsuit; Google "wingsuit." One charge gives you a Fly speed of 30' for 1 round that you could use to gain up to 30' of elevation plus up to 30' of horizontal distance (diagonals are always 1::1, both horizontally and vertically, and you can spiral to "burn" distance to meet the minimum horizontal distance requirement). On subsequent rounds, you can glide up to 30' horizontally but always lose 5' of elevation. Using the Wing Runes, instead of a charge, can you give an instant 15' of elevation that you can use to glide further. I added that you needed to move a minimum of 15' horizontally (not 30') to avoid "stalling" and falling. The idea is that expending a charge causes a burst of wind to push you up into the air and the Wingwear wings just help you glide down like Wingsuit. Note that with a maximum of only 3 charges it is not easily abused as a "flying suit."
#12 Coredump00 Aug 05, 2015 8:13:19	The issue is you can't follow some rules, and ignore others.  Yes you get a 30' fly speed, which means *in general* you can ascend whenever you want. And it means *in general* that you can fly *up to* 30'. But there are other, more specific, rules involved.  In specific, you must fly the full 30' or 'land'.  In specific, the wings are for *gliding*.  If you start ascending, then you are not gliding.   Luckily, since these can't realistically be recharged... it doesn't really effect much.
#13 Kalani Aug 05, 2015 8:52:40	Sorsohka wrote:
(Reply to #13) Sorsohka	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #13) Coredump00	Kalani wrote:
#16 CahPahkah Aug 05, 2015 10:02:06	Sorsohka wrote:
#17 FelwredNew Aug 05, 2015 10:45:23	I'm curious, if you get the wingwear in an AL session and you have not yet shut down the air node - couldn't you recharge them?
(Reply to #17) Sorsohka	FelwredNew wrote:
#19 Kalani Aug 05, 2015 11:02:19	Coredump00 wrote:
(Reply to #19) Coredump00	Kalani wrote:
#21 Mirtek Aug 05, 2015 13:43:51	Coredump00 wrote:
#22 Sorsohka Aug 06, 2015 6:19:31	discussion abot grid or no grid doesn't matter since moving 1 square or moving 5 ft is the same thing. it's jut a different representation.   The question here is: is a 45degree upward movement count as being an horizontal movement? that you count the distance in square, hexagone or ft do not matter. and does the writer of the item consider pythagore in there math making it impossible to do 30ft horizontal if you got any kind of upward movement or do they consider that a circle and a square being the same shape therefore going 45 degree upward do not affect your horizontal movement.   Just to make sure everyone are using the same description here a quote from the PotA book.   Show PotA wrote:
#23 Pauper Aug 06, 2015 7:25:40	I think Sorsohka's point is a valid one.   Basically, wingwear is intended to simulate gliding, and it does so better than I'd originally thought -- the restriction that you must move 30 feet horizontally or fall means that, if your speed is 30 feet, you can't ascend using the wingwear (without using the Dash action), as any vertical distance means that, by the Pythagorean Theorem (a^2 + b^2 = c^2, where c = 30), you don't move 30 feet of horizontal distance.   The confusion comes in when using the default variant rules for grid movement, which are allowed in AL -- using those rules, one square of movement on a grid is equal to 5 feet of movement, regardless of direction, so using a grid 'breaks' the wingwear. (And yes, I've heard all the arguments about 'updrafts' and such, having had a number of folks who took Gliding as their movement power in Champions, but if you ask a glider, updrafts are way more restrictive than usually portrayed in an RPG -- you have to stay inside the updraft to gain altitude from it, so no effective travel happens while ascending, and you can't just find an updraft anywhere you want to find one, you have to take advantage of the updrafts when you find them or not use them at all.)   So wingwear is significantly more powerful using the grid rules than when not using the grid rules, though one way to balance that out is to effectively enforce the non-grid rules by saying that, for the purposes of maintaining altitude using wingwear, even grid movement cannot include vertical ascent unless the Dash action is used. That would seem to be the best way to enforce the design intent of the item regardless of the movement rules chosen.   -- Pauper
#24 Kalani Aug 06, 2015 7:33:59	The problem herein, is that requires the DM to make up rules just to satisfy their desire for realism. DMs are not allowed to make up rules - what is printed is what occurs. If the DM is using grid rules, they use grid rules for everything (including how wingwear operates). Giving wingwear additional rules on a grid just to simulate realism results in the DM adding rules to the game which is not allowed in AL.    In AL, a DM is empowered to adjudicate scenario's the rules do not cover. This is not a situation the rules do not cover. This is a situation in which people are uncomfortable adjudicating the RAW (when playing on a grid), as it breaks verisimilitude.... It's a simulation guys. It doesn't have to conform to physics, and honestly isn't worth an argument over.    Furthermore, by your logic - all flying creatures should suffer the same penalties when moving in 3dimensions. Rules that alter how vertical movement affect a creature's fly speed should apply equally across the board. It is an irrelevant point however, as DMs are not empowered to alter the rules for flying, movement on a grid (in any direction), or wingwear.
#25 Sorsohka Aug 06, 2015 7:52:25	I don'T see it as adding rule since it is stated in the item description that the item is for gliding purposes.   The item do say you have a fly speed of 30ft. You need to move horizontally 30ft.   moving in a 45 degree ascending is not horizontally. There is a portion of horizontal movement, but it's not moving horizontally.   So it's not adding rules since it's within the description of the item: need to move 30ft horizontally. horizontally by definition is without any ascending(or descending) angles. You can interprate it as having a portion of your movement to be horizontally, or you can interprate it as the movement need to be horizontally.   For me considering that item is made to be gliding favor the interpratetion requiring a full horizontal movement (and not just a portion of horizontal movement) this way it prevent the item to allow flying, and the item stay a gliding item. it's not adding rule, it's a different interpretation that allow to respect the intention stated in the item description.
#26 Mirtek Aug 06, 2015 7:58:05	How die Wingwear transform from being a "trap item" no one should ever take in AL into a broken item that needs to be reign in with house rules?
#27 Kalani Aug 06, 2015 8:18:43	Sorsohka wrote:
(Reply to #24) Pauper	Kalani wrote:
#29 Sorsohka Aug 06, 2015 9:03:24	Pauper the wingwear give you flight speed of 30ft (not based on your walking speed) so dwarves, hafling and gnome walk at 20ft but fly with wingwear at 30ft.   Mirtek, the wingwear, is still a trap item because once complet PotA and the few expedition with air node it is impossible to recharge, but it's still by definition a rechargeable item that cannot be recharge, so it count on your permanent item count and prevent you to gain priority on the next magical item you get.   Khalani what I'm saying is there is 2 way to interprate 30ft movement horizontally.   the first interpratation is the one that you use, a movement of 30ft on the zx plane. the second interpretation, the one I am using, is you need to do 30ft in the horizontal direction. with this second interpreatation even if you had the haste spell giving you 60ft speed with the wingwear, if you go 45 degree ascending on 60ft, you still plummet down since you move in a scending manner, not horizontally.   Those are 2 interpretation of the same rules. They are both legal. The difference is :   the first interpretation make the wingwear a object that give a flight speed to player and ignore the stated intention the second interpretation make the wingwear a glingind item which respect the stated intent of the item.   But by raw they are both legal in AL.. By RAI the second interpretation it the right one.   No houserule, I am not saying that the fly speed become 20ft when moving in a ascending manner or that the player cannot ascend. I am just interpreting the definition of "horizontal" to apply it to the direction of the movement instead of applying it to the distance of the movement, this is a ruling well within the DM empowerement boundaries.
#30 Kalani Aug 06, 2015 9:15:43	No matter how you justify it, you are applying the optional rules for diagonal movement on a grid in respect to vertical movement (diagonal movement costs 1 1/2 squares). This rule is prohibited in AL and only the default grid rules are allowed (all movement is 1 square, including diagonals).
(Reply to #30) Sorsohka	Kalani wrote:
(Reply to #29) Pauper	Sorsohka wrote:
#33 Coredump00 Aug 06, 2015 15:18:19	Lets review a few rules.   1) The Item description explicitly states that they are "wings for gliding"  This is a clear and explicit restriction.  Yes they give you a fly speed, which normally allows ascending or descending... but *this* item has a fly speed that can only be used for *gliding*.  If you ascend, you are not gliding, and thus are breaking the rules of the item. (It is also stated elsewhere that the wings are for gliding.)   2) The items says you must travel 30' "Horizontally" or you fall.  If you travel at an angle upwards, you are *NOT* moving horizontally... to move horizontally, you must move parallel with the ground.   3) The variant grid rules say *nothng* about verticle movement. They speak explicitly of squares, not cubes. It says nothing about 3 dimensional movement.  Before someone starts complaining about "DMs making up rules", they should figure out how they are using a 2D grid for 3D movement.