I will be looking to run this down the track
Ive made some notes as Ive read the first document
A) If all 10 fellow prisoners survive, it will make for some interesting combats. Just how many of these npcs should be 'sent off' ? I see the Prince, Orc and possibly one other will stay with the party for time being but what are others views on this?
B) Having the pcs captured reminds me of my standard start tactic in any DSun game I ran. I intend to really play up the Drow Cruelty!
Sunblade at level 2.
Lots of "Roll on magic items chart" results.
And yeah, you have sooooo many NPCs.
The Sunblade shouldn't really be available until sometime in level 4, even if you simply run the document as written. And they are discussing the "Roll on Chart" results.
The NPCs... give them to players. Make up little cards with stat blocks and give them to players for combat. Or just yank them and have an offscreen combat involving the NPCs.
It should be noted that several of the NPC's won't be combat NPC's.
Stool is a sprout and very weak, it will die super easily if it fights. It's main use is to be a universal translator ensuring communcation no matter the language.
The Twins plan on leaving the party once they feel safe. And due to their status they can be dangerous if they stay around the party too long.
Buppido plans on murdering everyone in the party. He likey won't last too long in the group.
Sarith Kzekarit is will eventully become a spore servant of zuggtmoy he will last longer then Buppido but not too long.
Shushar the Awakened Is a total pasfist and won't take part in any combat even to defend himself.
At first I was "WTF?!?" about Dawnbringer... but after reading I realized its trivial to make that one of the 'later' side adventures.... so whew...
But I still don't understand how to run Chap 1 effectively. Even a single Drow Elite is CR 5, and the PCs are all level 1 with *no equipment*, no armor, no weapons, no spell components.....
I can see them getting out of the cave, and escaping by jumping down and running away... but even that may cost them a few PCs or NPCs.... but I don't see how they can possibly deal with any of the encounters in Velkynvelve. The default location of any imporant items (spell books, foci, etc) is a suicide mission.... even relocating them somewhere else, like the armory, entails a *very* deadly fight, especially for unarmed and unarmored PCs with <10 hp each.
What am I missing here? They talk about a max of 2700XP... I can't see how they will get 300XP....
This feels almost more like a campaign book than an adventure. About 80% (or more) of the adventure is going to be random encounters.
Ch. 1 is almost entirerly random or ad-libbed
Ch 2 is supposed to have 1..maybe 2...set pieces, and otherwise lots of random encounters.
Ch 3 has lots of random encounters, then maybe 1 seesion when a set piece occurs.
I am not sure if this is a complaint or praise... for now it is just an observation
My concern at this point is that it will feel like the PCs never 'do' or 'accomplish' anything.... IOW the Shorter version is "We escaped, then travelled a long time, then watched a Demon get summoned" They seem to have very little impact on the game other than managing to survive. And they have to do it without being able to play their character as envisioned. (ie. no heavy armor, maybe missing spell components, no thieves tools, etc.)
Coredump00 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
SteveMND wrote:
I was pleansantly surprised as to how many locations are in compleate darkness. Even more surprised to see some of the punishments when you break out the lights.
SteveMND wrote:
But let me be clear...... I do not mean my posts to be complaints per se.... but rather issues I am concerned with and hoping to brainstorm possible solutions with other DMs.
For instance, I went through a looked through the level 1 and 0 spells.... and most of them either have no M component, nor have ones easy to find, even in the Underdark. Which I think is pretty cool. I can already envision making the wizard find small rocks to pulverize into sand for the Sleep spell......
I think Derendeil is going to be very key to their escape, since he will be a much better fighter than any of the PCs from the start. It means the PCs will not be the 'best' at the beginning...... but I think that could be okay way to start the adventure, since they will grow in power. The CR5 creature will kill a PC with each hit, so up to 2 PCs a round. I think Derendeil is the only NPC that can take more than 1 hit before going down.
One idea I had.... is for the PCs to just escape at first. Maybe using the plan from Jorlan, but however... escape, maybe kill some spiders on the way, maybe have a random encounter.... but then get caught an recaptured. This will allow 2 things 1) It lets me showcase the cruelty of the Drow (At least one prisoner will be sacrificed to the spiders as an example, and Jorlan's corpse will be nailed to a wall where he was tortured to death), but mostly 2) now all of the PCs will be second level, which is enough to maybe allow for storming the armory during their next escape.
What do you guys think?
It should be noted that the area is pretty big Coredump. Added on their are very few elite Warriors the majority are normal Drow. As long as the PC's avoid the elites and the Priestess they should be able to beat off their captors and escape. But a major thing is that you want to avoid fighting here the best idea is to sneak out and escape. The best opprotunity is the Demon attack. As all the Drow and enemy quaggoths will be distracted by it.
I more or less see the chapter going like this.
Party interacts with fellow prisoners and gets to learn situations and learn the area as they are being led around and forced to work.
Party takes advantage of lax sucurity in some situations to have a stealthy party member or two smuggly gear for the prisoners.
Jorlun unlocks their cell
Demon attack a little while after which will allow hem all to escape.
Naturally a lot could go wrong. But the Drow don't plan on killing anyone at first which is a good thing.
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Can someone help me with Chapter 3? I am not understanding it.
It has a *lot* of info about navigating the Darklake.... but I don't see how the PCs will be on the Darklake... It is a straight walk over land to get from Velkynvelve to Slublubland. After that they may end up on the water, but how do they end up on the water *before* getting to slublubland?
And again with the XP max.... 3900?? How in the world does anyone think the PCs will get anywhere near this total? Is it just meant as a failsafe for crazy DMs? If you do *every* random encounter once, and then kill all the First Contact folks... that is still less than 9K XP. A party of 4 could do every random encounter *twice*, and the First Contact, and still not hit the cap. It doesn't harm anything to have a super high cap.... but it just makes me wonder if they bothered checking the math at all.
Id sure like to see a Group of Monks being imprisoned.
' We took your stuff'
(Group of Monks look around Slave pen wearing only Monk Robes)
"This is an unusual scenario in that the characters start almost totally bereft of equipment and spells. Many players think of their characters in terms of their powers and possessions, rather than as people. Such players will probably be totally at a loss for the first few minutes of play. It is likely that they will be angry at the DM for putting them in such an “unfair” situation. They will demand or beg concessions. DO NOT GIVETHEM ANY HELP, even if they make you feel sorry for them. Inform the players that they must rely on what they have, not what they used to have, and that this includes their brains and their five senses. Good players will actually welcome the challenge of this scenario. All players will ultimately enjoy the module much more if they get out on their own resources, rather than with what hints and clues the DM gives them.
The dungeon labyrinth is far from a normal AD&D dungeon. To escape, the player characters will have to make the best of the opportunities offered by the contents of the various encounter areas. These opportunities may seem meager to the players at first, but thisdungeon contains more than enough material for the players to escape from any of the exits if they have the wits and resourcefulness to recognize and utilize it. However, this module is also a test of the ability of the Dungeon Master! It is a virtual certainty that good players, forced to rely on their own initiative, will attempt to use what they find to do things not covered by the rules. In these situations, it is entirely up to the DM to handle these requests with fairness, objectivity, and imagination. Some things the DM can think about ahead of time; for example, how will the party make light, or ropes, or mark their way? Consider such things, but be prepared also, for the players will probably think of things that never occurred to you."
This not from the "Rage of Demons" story line, but rather some DM information at the beginning of AD&D Module A4 "In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords." I remembered going through this in JR High 34 years ago and running it at a convention a few years later when I was in HS. There's nothing helpful here, just some motivating words in a module printed back in the early 80's. Totally awesome. Totally.
Tyranthraxus wrote:
How are folks going to handle XP awards? Since the PCs will likely be less than half of the 'party'....
If they kill (lets say) 5 spiders... do you split the XP between only the PCs, or do you give a share to the NPCs also?
Id give the exp to the PC's only. Otherwise you are going to have been dividing by a lot and having to constantly add new random encounters to get them to 2nd and then to 3rd. As has been said, some of the npcs cant/wont fight anyway.
That or you have 2 groups of enemies attack and the npc group is fighting them.
A.) None of the NPCs will kill you, there is a safeguard in place here. Though players wont know this.
1.) Make friends in the jail cell. Use Stool as a translator if needed.
2.) Work on getting out of restraints. If you're having a hard time ask for help from Gront or Prince Derendil with breaking them. Maybe Jimjar can pick them or snag a key. Once out of the restraints pretend you're still in them.
3.) Scout around when working to figure out where the armory is and other treasure.
4.) See if you can bribe Jimjar to pickpocket keys by taking advantage of his gambling addiction. Sience he's such a cumpulsive gambler he'll get his head underwater fast. But maybe he can score you an important key or item?
4.) When the demons come Jorlan Duskrim will let you out because he's a male drow with male drow problems.
5.) With all of Velkynvelve on alert when the demons show up, go and raid the armory when it's unguarded. If you know about the chest in Ilvara's quarters, go there too. Open it with a previousally stolen key, pick the lock, have jimjar pick the lock, or take the chest with you....
6.) Jump to the webs and GTFO.
A.) If you have the misfortune of running into a Drow Elite or one of the NPCs in a combat scenario, take your beating. Or try and use Gront, Derendil or Eldeth to tie them up. If you managed to get a drow poisioned crossbow bolt, you MAY be able to knock one of them out with the bolt using it as either an improvised weapon or using a crossbow, but good luck on this.
I like how this adventure starts out. It's better than "You start off guarding a caravan." The typical jerkery of the drow is played up well and you get to meet one of each underdark denizen bar duregar and mindflayers right out the gate. --Err in the gate?
I think having the players put into a position where they can't just fight their way out is great. It gives a lot of options for those characters who chose to take the options that don't focus on that pillar, which tends to dominate a lot of games.
I fully tend to give XP to characters for doing things that will help engineer their escape. Noncombat XP is the key to this first part of this adventure and is totally supported (even though it's not detailed). This will challenge the DMs to provide great encounters and challenges to the players that doesn't involve, "hey, kill a thing" and I can't wait for it. It'll push the DMs creativity to the limits, especially ones that are only used to running the published modules so far.
The one thing that they hinted at, but didn't fully establish is the Drow's sexuality. They are very sexual beings, especially the females. Playing this up may not be appropriate for all tables, however. For those that can, use it as a tool to create some moments that the players can capitalize on. Is there an exceptionally impressive physical specimen among the party? Even though they may be iblith (a Drow word used in reference to any non-Drow literally meaning offal, or excrement) a female Drow will still mate with with them. It's definitely not a pleasant experience (by most people's standards) either. I'm not saying turn the story into 50 Shades of Drow, but I fully plan on using this knowledge to create some opportunity for the PCs to possibly create some tension within the Drow ranks.
Eh they elude to the sexuality enough with the current priestess playing favoriates, while still keeping it PG13. You even have the whole current favoriate's quarters under the high priestess's thing going on. Anything along the grounds of a forced sexual encounter isn't going to bode well though. If you're looking for that sort of thing look no further than the Salvatore novels.
Well, there was a post I was replying to about Drow not taking any non-Drow as lovers, but it took me a minute to find the relevant info. By the time I finished my reply, the post we deleted. Here's the quote that confirms it, the he in question is Artemis Entreri.
Charins Claw, Chapter 20 wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
A good encounter I was thinks about during a Hard Labor scene is putting something the PCs can definitely use out of reach while they're fetching water. One PC will have to distract the guards somehow, while another will have to make a short but very dangerous climb if they want it. I'd be at least 200 XP due to the deadly nature (a fall will result in almost certain doom) and requiring at least 2 PCs.
I think the epic joke in this adventure is using an NPC named Stool as a translator. One that looks like stool to boot. The first thing PCs will likely do is huddle around the little turd and bond with it's spores so they can speak with other prisoners.
Another amusing part is the mention of Kuo-Toa sleepwalking.
The adventure is turning out to be an enjoyable read just for the sake of the read.
Granville7482 wrote:
Coredump00 wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
From SteveMND - "All that said, while I think this is a great adventure concept, and it looks like it's going to be a lot of fun to play/DM, I will agree with one thing -- it's NOTa good fit for Encounters. Encounters are intended to get new folks interested in the game. And a scenario where the goal is to force players to think outside the box is going to be exceptionally hard to do considering that many of these are going to be brand new players may not have known there was even a box there to begin with."
That's a good point that I didn't think about (forest for the trees and all that). Even though it's Season 3, Encounters is supposed to to help get new people interested in the game and starting out captured, all your gear taken from you and no idea what's going on may not be fun for new people who are picking up the d10 or d12 die and asking "is this what I roll to hit?".
I think this scenario is the perfect way to teach new players how to play the game. It shows them that the world isn't limited to what's on the sheet. It teaches you to actually role play. What are the strengths of the PC, and how can they use them to creatively solve this problem they've found themselves in. It cements teamwork and gives every single PC a common cause, regardless of their character's motives, from the get go (something that is very hard to do in Encounters).
Don't have any spell components or an arcane focus? How can you remedy that? Want to try to find a suitable substitute? Ok, let's play that out. Want to try and craft a spellcasting focus? Ok, here's what you'll need to do. You'd rather die than leave here without your ancestral greatsword? Ok, what's your plan to get it back, and let's go for it.
Teach new players how to interact with the game world through their character's eyes (which can get definitely bogged down with, "well my sheet says I can do this") and they'll come back for more.
Danny_Montanny wrote:
Yeah it's not the greatest for starting players but Lost Mine is.
Veteran players may really apreciate this one though.
And other than using lost mine, I don't find any of the Expiditions to be really good for new players, where as the 6-parts encounters are fantastic.
I kind of feel the opposite. I think experienced players are going to be more used to having all the 'normal' options. I think new people well be pretty understanding of the concept of being in a prison.
But still would like some ideas for how they can escape *with* gear.....
I was wondering, at least for AL play(a home game can change as they want), how being a Ranger with the Natural Explorer feature and favored terrain as Underdark interacts with all the traveling rules. It should negate most of the various penalties. For instance, there is that part about your navigator getting lost, but obviously you can't get lost in the Underdark per Natural Explorer, so that should counter that. However, another advantage of Natural Explorer is difficult terrain doesn't slow your groups travel, but the Underdark travel table reduces travel speeds by more than 1/3 to 1/4 because the Underdark is filled with difficult terrain. So in an AL encounter game, will the DM go by that table if you have a ranger in the party with Underdark favored terrain, or use the normal travel table in the player's guide? Since difficult terrain normally halves speed, should it maybe make Underdark travel 1/2 speed instead of 1/4 normal?
Abracastabra wrote:
Danny_Montanny wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
So you can rebuild a character lvl 1-4 in AL, and you replace all old starting equipment with new starting equipment. If after the first session, players don't like running around without their chosen gear(especially casters that didn't get their spellbooks and foci, or someone who went human to get polearm master at lvl1 and is now running around blind in the darkness without a glaive to make himself feel better about it), can't they just rebuild and have a regular starting package of equipment the following week?
I know I was going to do knowledge cleric 1/wiz X originally, but I won't be able to get a spellbook at my 2nd level, and I wouldn't have had one in Ilvara's chest. I'd probably have just rebuilt to straight wiz.
Totally unrelated-am I missing somethign about where a player can get thieves tools in the drow prison? It mentions using them on manacles, the slave pen door, and a couple of chests. It does mention in the part about the slave pen door using improvised tools at disadvantage, but as an alternative to these regular tools( wherever they came from). Is there some rule for improvised tools somewhere in the PHB or DMG? Or perhaps a DM will let a thief that had them do a retroactive sleight of hand check to see if he hid them in his butt crack while being stripped down?
Encourage your players to be inventive.
It's easy to see this opening as punishment, but present it as a puzzle.
- Cantrips don't need components, so any Wizard with Mage Hand can grab somebody else's stuff (such as Thieves Tools) on the way out.
- A character trained in Sleight of Hand and/or Perception should get lots of descriptive detail, such as stuff that could become useful later (DM "I can read ahead" knowledge applied as a hint)
- Big tough guys are still big and tough even without armor - provide an overconfident jailer or two - reflect back the PCs' "why me?" whining at them but reworded as gloating - and let them jump him to steal his weapon / armor / everything on his belt.
- Try out the "Grapple" action and the "Restrained" condition.
BRJN wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Since starting "Out of the Abyss" I've had several players, mine & others, ask about rebuilding characters as drow monks or barbarians. I'm sure they're doing this so they'll have an adavntage since they don't have weapons & armor. My question is: how much about the Underdark would they know? There's a lot of stuff most players won't know due to be being surface dwellers, but wouldn't a drow player know at least something about the Underdark? Also, while character rebuilding is allowed, doesn't this seem a bit "meta gaming"? I've had other players rebuild characters before, but that's because they wanted to be a warlock over a wizard or a tiefling over a dwarf, but not because of the situation.
Abracastabra wrote:
MacSteele wrote:
I just went over the OOTA and I must say in some respects playing both encounters and expedtions dosent seem like a bad thing when many people's PCs will get killed in the early game due to strong CR. Yeah disarm but if you miss you could be dead quick. Like I said in my other post on a similar topic this campaign feels real Dark Sunish in difficulty. After reading the book there seems like there will be a lot more TPKs in this csmpaign then the others especially if the players only play Out of The Abyss and don't play any of the expedtion thst may give them a better chance for better items in the way of certs.
A party of 5 Monks will not enable you to combat yourself out of the initial scenario. A drow elite will still likely KO them. The goal is get as much gear back as possible and get out.
You have a lot of NPCs to help you pickpocket, scout and become distractions or soak up blows. At 1st level many are just as good as 1st level PCs if not better.
They are good enough you could hand them out to players and they could get out of the first scenario on their own without typical PC assistance at all.
Abracastabra wrote:
I thought they rules in season 2 that once you have gotten your equpiment, it couldn't be changed.
Knight_Marshal wrote:
Abracastabra wrote:
3Three comments/thoughts to get feedback:
I read through the adventure. It looks like a good sourcebook for a home game but not good for AL. Three key issues:
1. The sandbox approach of most of the module will be hard to keep it in line with other adventures. As much as HoTDQ and POA had their issues, they were mostly linear and could be molded into AL (even if the levels earned didn't match the modules well)(even with random monsters frequently added).
2. The rather high level of magic items (yes, I know the daylight restriction but it isn't hard to only have a wand or sword out a few minutes rather than hours at a time) - it looks like it could skew non ROD adventures. Some of the items are remarkably powerful and, if used elsewhere, could make the adventure almost pointless.
3. The biggest issue is the final item given out - THE WAND OF ORCUS?!!! Not only given out, it is forced on a party member then attunes itself to the character. The DMG doesn't prohibit attuning with evil items for non evil characters. This is the Harizwan issue magnified many-fold. Before anyone runs this, hopefull the adventure's league will give guidance on the wand and other items.
My recommendations:
1. Not let it be an AL module. If not that, then:
2. Any drow item only lasts 30 real world calendar days from when the cert is given but that the certs can be removed from the character.
3. Specify that the wand of orcus can't be taken. If it is critical to the story (I didn't think it was), it takes over that character - the party has to bring him/her down after it's use, then cast it away into the Abyss. I don't care if the character is level 18, it is a game-breaking item. Example: as a standard action, you can create 300 hit dice worth of undead under your control (zombies and skeletons). That's a tad better than any 9th level spell. Granting 9th level spells, etc.
Fred
I dont think any chapter in any of the breakups of ANY of the Modules we have had so far be it Hoard or Princes or Rage have ever given more than 1 Renown for a Chapter break point. The only place to get multiple renown in one hit is Expeditions.
Tyranthraxus wrote:
Tyranthraxus wrote:
FelwredNew wrote:
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
SteveMND wrote:
Abracastabra wrote:
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
I'm actually a big fan of this season as an introductory Encounters season focused on new players -- the 'you start captured and without gear' isn't that different from survival horror or similar genre games, as well as being a classic trope from earlier editions (see the A4 quote above -- very timely!). It also emphasizes a major difference between D&D and Pathfinder, in that this season is all about interacting with the environment and your fellow PCs and your associated NPCs rather than relying on your cool gear or class tricks to bail you out of trouble.
The big challenge for DMs in this season is dealing with the hard-line 'if the rules don't cover a situation, you can't do anything about it' position that some admins have taken toward DM Empowerment. If the DM can't come up with impromptu rulings on how to adjudicate disarming opponents, using alternative spell components (keep in mind that a list of such components already exists, published in the latest Dragon+, and that list could certainly serve as inspiration for other alternate components**), and the like, much of the potential fun of the season is going to be lost in rules arguments, which would be a real shame.
--
Pauper
** - someone earlier in the thread mentioned cantrips not requiring components -- that's not true. The light cantrip, for example, which would be a pretty significant one for Underdark exploration, requires a verbal and material component. There are some cantrips that don't require a material component, including a number of attack cantrips like acid splash and fire bolt, but to say that cantrips aren't restricted by component requirements is simply false.
Here's a "what if" for everyone: what if a new player shows up at my table shortly after the party has escaped? Now, the party didn't recover all their equipment, but how much equipment does the new player have with them?
MacSteele wrote:
Pauper wrote:
MacSteele wrote:
I participated in an in-store Adventurer's League for the first time ever on Wednesday. Got a shiny new DCI number, took my carefully designed character with me, and...
...got the weapon I'd specialized in stripped away, leaving me with my STR 8 dump start weakly punching people while having no armor. Okay, fine, someone in the party found a dagger, they can just give it to me and... oh, wait, they can't, because AL rules say no inventory transfers. Not even a makeshift prison shiv. Great start, there.
After an hour and a half of fruitless poking at a gaggle of wacky NPCs with names we couldn't remember if we tried, our only plan ("fight 'em") failed miserably, leaving us right back where we started at the end of the night. No XP, no progress, no idea what we could be doing differently. No fun had, either.
I'm not going back next week.
I get that some people love "hard mode" D&D in the same way people love Dark Souls or punching themselves in the head for funsies, but man, that was NOT fun at all. Even eight players at the table couldn't figure out whatever babel-fish-puzzle level difficult method the DM wanted us to use to successfully break out of prison. Having over half the party nerfed by lack of appropriate weapons or an antimagic field meant the only person who had any success at all was the orc NPC. I went there to relax and enjoy some D&D, not to smash my head into a wall trying to figure out what the game wanted us to be doing.
I'm sorry to be "that guy" who posts just to say something negative, but honestly, there was nothing positive about the experience. I don't think Out of the Abyss is appropriate for an AL, and certainly not for an AL that's advertised as being a great entry point for new players like me. All this experience did was teach me not to bother trying AL again until maybe next season.
First of all, I am sorry you had a bad experience. Since I wasn't there, I can't tell what factors may have impacted that, but I will try some possibilities...
HeXcoda wrote:
HeXcoda wrote:
Pauper wrote:
HeXcoda wrote:
Not entirely true. A dagger has a value in GP, and can be sold (unless it was recovered from a dead enemy in which case it's worthless).
PCs are welcome to loan items to another character, but you cannot buy items for them (or give them items you no longer want). Doing so is effectively circumventing the "No Gold" rule as such items have a GP value.They can't just give you an item, and you can't buy it from them (again due to the no-gold rule).
If this rule did not exist, a higher level player could easily circumvent the "No gold" rule by buying trade goods and giving them to another PC (trade goods hold their full value).
The only thing you are allowed to spend money on that benefits another character - are spellcasting services. With that being said, I personally recommend my players to buy expensive spellcasting components for spells they want other PCs to cast (esp. diamonds for raise dead and revify).
In my group we manage to break the chains talk to the other prisoners and get help from a very angry drow who wanted to sabotage his mistress plans and soil her name by freeing us. Which worked out well. Then the demon attack on the outposts helped distract our drow captors while we got our stuff back and killed a few drow and stole stuff on our way out. My character being a drow wizard from the house Xolarrin is kinda leading the group at the moment since he knows the area best, even though he has dark intensions. He was in human disguise when got captured his way from Hillsfar on his way to the new drow city of Q'Xolarrin or Gauntlgrym which is part of the Archmage book by R.L.Salvitore.
Kalani wrote:
Oh - if its just a prison shiv, then yeah - the PCs can take it and do whatever they want with it. My answer was not predecated on anything specific within an adventure, and was simply a general statement regarding item trading.
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Sorry to backtrack in the thread but this question has had myself pickled for a few days.
Coredump00 wrote:
Granville7482 wrote:
SteveMND wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Optimization has nothing to do with it. A character will try to be the best they can be because that's how you survive in the dangerous profession they chose. They would be optimized in relation to what they want to be good at. The issue is players not role playing said character, they instead only play the limited things they optimized. They don't put their character in the situation at hand and make choices their character would make to survive. It's like they're always trying to tune a piano with a hammer, because a hammer is all they brought. I'm not saying this is all "optimizers", but they're the one's people complain about.
Besides, the issue at hand is 1st-level characters, it's not like you can be super optimized that early. Make do with what you have because that's what your characters would do in that situation. They wouldn't sit around whining about how their precious polearm got taken away so now they can't do anything.
Not entirely true unfortunately. The admins only have input regarding Expeditions and possibly Epics. Even then, the specific magic items chosen for the Expeditions are chosen by WotC.
This is manageable. However what isn't managable is the Hardcover adventures which are written by TPPs and which are legal for AL. If any power creep or arms race occurs, it will be triggered by the hardcovers.
Pauper wrote:
Kalani wrote:
SteveMND wrote:
Pauper wrote:
I think that optimizers should be encouraged to share the limelight. It's ok however if they are strong enough to hold an entire flank on their own -as long as there is a second flank to fight on for the other players.
If the party is fighting on a single front - they should share the limelight.
For example: I built a moon Druid/bear barbarian for my S2 character. I built it to be one of the party tanks with the goal of conserving party healing by tanking hits (rage+ wildshape HPs). I took the sentinel feat and like to team up with a high AC character to give the DM bad choices but can tank a flank by myself if necessary.
I try to position myself in one choke point to prevent the enemies hitting the squishy PCs yet always make sure that they have an opportunity to share hits (I believe even the Wizards should be hit as unspent HD are a wasted resource that would conserve healing magic - and believe all characters should ideally spend 1/2 their HD each day).
The character is a Damage mitigation controller. Yes I could easily try to do everything (I hit hard as well dealing 2d6+6 + trip on a hit) but that isn't the goal. I allow some enemies past my defenses deliberately (to reduce the number of attacks I am taking and to give other PCs as many targets as they can handle).
SteveMND wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
SteveMND wrote:
For what it's worth, Pauper, I empathize. Playing an uber-optimized character is, from a certain perspective, too easy. I'm in the camp that doesn't think that's particularly fun, and I'd rather have a good character concept than torque my characterization to fit optimal mechanics.
That being said, I can see how some people do find that fun. I think, however, that there's a big difference between someone who enjoys maximum optimization and someone who feels the need to disparage other players for not being one as well. Those are the kind of players that most of the AL participants I've come in contact with would choose not to play with, because more often than not those kind of players have demonstrated they can't understand why other players make the choices they do, and sometimes can't help indavertantly undermining the other players.
I have had the privilege of DMing tables with mature players that try to optimize their PCs without commensurately feeling it's necessary to question others about their build choices. Those particular players are actually fun, as they've figured out ways to make their optimizing efforts justified not because they're trying to exploit loopholes or gray areas of the rules, but because it makes the characterization of their PC's stronger. They use it as a scaffolding on which to build interesting PCs that are fun to play with. And more often than not those players have relished playing with less-optimized PCs that have made different choices that also result in fun-to-play-with PCs.
I agree there is a certain breed of players that can too easily spoil everyone's fun because they simply can't appreciate why anyone else would make less optimal choices. But I don't think all optimizers are necessarily like that. In my experience, it has always depended on the maturity of the individual player. Pride about how they've figured out how to arrange the mechanics to do what they enjoy is one thing, but snide condescention of other players hasn't necessarily proven to go hand-in-hand every single time--at least in my experience. It's been there, yes, but generally it goes away as they see how others are capable of enjoying themselves and contributing in different ways.
I've found that setting the tone at the top of my AL tables has done a wonderful job at stifling that kind of behavior. I've tried to make it clear in subtle ways (sometimes more successfully than others) that all of our efforts are about mutual storytelling, so it has generally been easy to nip those kinds of remarks in the bud early on in each session. Quickly rewarding Inspiration to players that are expressing a lot of characterization is one way. It sets a tone. And not indulging the uber-optimizer's every mechanical justification of why they're attacking the way they're attacking is another. It speeds the game along and helps keep the emphasis on a more balanced play experience where everyone can share the spotlight. Their awesome effectiveness is recognized very quickly as a matter of course, and sometimes that's all it takes to keep them happy as well.
I won't go so far as Coredump in saying *you* are somehow wrong for feeling the way you feel or put words in your mouth (that have habitually extended to dismissive conclusions... good grief <sigh>). I've felt the way you feel sometimes, too.
CoreyartustheSecond wrote:
I optimize and roleplay - both equally. The way you hear most people say it, my playstyle is impossible as roleplaying and optimization are mutually exclusive (they aren't). I also encourage all my fellow players to find their own playstyle and have fun with it.
Regarding Optimization
Everyone can get better at optimization and everyone can learn how to better achieve their own goals. With that being said, telling people they are BadWrongFun for not optimizing to the nth degree, or taking issue with an optimization choice that is different from the one you yourself would make is a major issue that some players have... Those players are Jerks.
Don't be a Jerk.
You can help others to be more efficient, but don't tell them their choices are wrong (esp. if they explain them to you as being deliberate for any reason). If their decision was simply out of ignorance, poor rules knowledge, or some other novice mistake - its fine to help them improve their rules knowledge for next time however, or perhaps give them some suggestions to consider which can help ameliorate their mistake. Don't force those suggestions on them however - always remember it is their character and that ultimately, the decisions are theirs to make.
Regarding Roleplaying
Everyone can always get better at roleplaying their characters - improving their acting skills, and developing more rounded and complete personalities for their characters, instead of a stereotype or 1dimensional character. Telling someone they are BadWrongFun for roleplaying or optimizing their characters a certain way is for the most part uncool. The only exception I would make, is if they are roleplaying their character in a disruptive or antagonistic way, in which case I would try and help them to see how their choices are coming at the expense of the other players. Players who condemn optimizers or other RP styles are Jerks.
Don't be a Jerk
How big is Menzoberranzan? I would like to get a feel for the city but no scale is given in the map. It is only said in the text that the Bazaar is 750 feet wide.
According to the map on the FR Wiki, Menzoberranzan is approximately 2miles x 2miles at its widest points (3600 x 3400 yards; 2.045 miles x 1.93 miles) and (to my knowledge) - is the largest City/Metropolis in the entire Underdark. This doesn't seem that big, except that it is also built vertically, and has more in common with the downtown CBD of a modern city than it does with most medieval cities.
At the height of its power in 1370, it had ~ 60,000 residents (2/3 slaves) but by 1372, its population had crashed by half (11,439 free citizens and 20,460 slaves = 31,899). That was over 100 years ago however, so I suspect it's population today (in 1479) is somewhere between those two numbers.
Here are several images to give an indication of the scale and majesty of this underdark metropolis.
Thank you Kalani, a very thorough answer indeed. I'm just wondering, should there be a scale in the Menzoberranzan map?
Those particular maps don't have scales, but the one linked to in the FR wiki lists the scale as 1 square = 200 yards (it was this map that I used to calculate how big the city was). The map is 17 squares N/S from Tier Breche south to the southernmost point of Qu'ellarz'orl (3400 yards); and is 18 squares East/West (3600 yards).
Someone might have already said it but you can always use the campaign story award for EXP instead of tracking individual encounters. It's how I think I'd do it. The player won't know for sure depending on how you give out EXP, but after escaping and some of the resulting encounters, saying everyone should have enough to be at second level and go from there when NPCs as big of a part of the group.
EthanSental wrote:
I took this to be a home game. not an AL game session, which was my mistake considering where the thread is located 
EthanSental wrote: