I ask because of this article:
http://dungeonsmaster.com/2014/08/dd-encounters-hoard-of-the-dragon-queen-week-1/
Quote:
"erdana, sans-serif; font-size:12px">We’ve been telling our group that if they wanted to play a race or class not available in the free D&D Basic Rules PDF that they had to have their own copy of the PHB with them during game play."
erdana, sans-serif; font-size:12px">Isn't the DM ultimately in charge of the rules?
erdana, sans-serif; font-size:12px">New players would be cut off from so many race, class and background options.
erdana, sans-serif; font-size:12px">Is this fair in a public game supposedly accessible to anyone who wants to play?
And is the official rulling in D&D Adventure League?
I don't know what's up with that formatting stuff.
Sounds like what Paizo did with Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I was not a fan of this policy then and I still don't care much for the idea of calling on DMs to be volunteer piracy police. I'm not a Wizards employee. Until Wizards starts paying me to DM, I am not going to be their anti piracy patsy. All I care about is whether or not people are going to slow down the game by not having the rules with them. If they scan the pages out of the book and keep it on their phone, or they have a digital copy via Dungeonscape, or if they downloaded it off some shady website, I don't care. As long as they have the rules for their character handy to not slow down the game by asking to borrow materials to look something up. If new players come in, then I would suggest they use classes out of the basic rules, but ultimately they can do whatever they want.
Haven't DM'd a game yet, but this is my view on it. There have been enough DMs so far, but I've made it known I am available as a backup.
I'm not really thinking about the piracy issue.
The DM should have all the rules.
But what if a player doesn't have the PHB to access during play?
What if a player wants to use the extras in the PHB but can't even afford to buy it?
What about someone who made a character with only the Basic, yet doesn't have access to it at the table?
I don't care if it slows the game. Many other things can do that.
Besides, how hard is it to show some common courtesy and share a book?
My question is what is the policy for Adventure League?
Does the DM have an obligation to let a player make up a character from the PHB if they don't own it?
Does the DM have the authority to bar a player if they don't have a book?
I interpret that as "Bring your own copy of the rules -- regardless of how you do so -- so you can show people the details behind whatever you've got on your character sheet." People want to not have to look stuff up for you, second guess whether you can do what you say you can do -- and it's not fair to expect to be able to use Other People's Books all the time. As far as I'm concerned, if someone has a brief description of something on their sheet and a page number reference so someone else can look it up, that's good enough.
There's also the point that if you want to play for free, you face the limitations of the free. And if you want the whole enchilada, you chip in to support that enchilada. That's motivation to put your money toward buying the book.
Disclaimer: I'm certain that Wizards of the Coast would be thrilled if every person exposed to Organized Play bought a copy of each applicable rulebook and resource they release for the program.
That said…
Nemo235 wrote:
Here's the issue I see.
Some people may love the sampler platter but might not be able to afford the whole enchilada.
D&D Adventurers League Mission
D&D Adventurers League events must:
• Be inclusive of players of all backgrounds
• Foster a welcoming atmosphere focused on fun
• Be accessible to the public (with a few exceptions)
• Use only approved adventure content
In the Player's Guide under Allowed Rules, page 3, includes the Player's Handbook.
It says nothing about owning the Player's Hanbook.
If a player starts out with group A which allows them use of the book and then moves to group B which says they must have a copy to play, then what?
Or for that matter, a player makes up a basic character but has no personal access to the rules at the table.
A game in which only SOME of the players have ALL the rules is not inclusive or completely accessible.
So I would just like to know if there is an official policy: Does the DM provide access to all the rules or not?
EDIT: TheBreen, I think I was typing while you were. That answers a lot of questions. Thank you.
Nemo235 wrote:
Our encounters group does this for 2 reasons.
1: If the player wants to play something they don't have the rules for it slows down play.
2: it supports the FLGS so we have a table to come back to next week.
IF they bring a photocopy we don't care but we do encourage them to think about how the store provides them free play space every week.
Veleria wrote:
I agree with the article writer -- if you want to use the additional races, classes, spells (there are 6 wizard cantrips in the PH that aren't in the Basic Rules, for example) in the Player's Handbook, then you should own the Player's Handbook. If you don't own the PH, limit yourself to the Basic Rules and have a copy present during play. It speeds up play, it allows players to check the rules without the DM having to interrupt the game, and it's the right thing to do both for the game developer and for the game store where you play the game.
I can see legitimate reasons why you might not own a PH but still want to use the PH -- you play Expeditions with your dad and he has a copy, for instance. But a good goal is for everyone at the table to use the material they have easy access to, whether they're at the table or not. Not every table in every store might achieve the goal, but that doesn't mean it's not still a good goal to strive for.
--
Pauper
Okay, so someone makes a character with the Basic set and cannot access the rules at the table.
Do you kick them out as well?
I just want to know the official policy, because this sounds like BS.
It says in the Player's guide that the options in the Player's Handbook are available.
It says nothing about buying a copy to access any kind of rewards in the form of more options.
If the DM has a copy they should be made available.
If someone can't share a book or is afraid that helping someone out is slowing the game down, I don't even know if I want to be in this hobby any more.
I had no idea public play was like this.
I don't think it's required. There are a lot of good reasons for everyone to have their own PHB, and every store/DM is welcome to make their own decisions on what they ask of their players. At my store, we encourage people to buy it if they can, and if they can't, and others are willing to loan the books to them before start time, then they're free to use that to create characters. I would not turn away a new player, or penalize an existing one for not having the book, but I would encourage them to buy one because A) it's awesome, and B) supporting the store means we can continue to play each week.
As it is, my store is sold out of them, and only about half of our players have the book.
Owning the book is not required by the DnDAL, but of course stores and DMs are allowed to make their own house rules to particpate. For example the store I play at charges $2/person to play (which they give to the DM on a gift card in store credit). The DnDAL doesn't require you to pay the $2, but we don't prevent it either.
I had a situation at my store where I run encounters. A player disputed my ruling regarding his barbarian character and pulled out his laptop. I informed him that an illegal PDF was not valid for use during official play and if he persisted he would probably be banned from the store. The store manager (who had available copies of the PHB on his shelves at MSRP) fully supported this and affirmed the ruling.
the player was totally confused by my position on the use of a PDF. He put the computer away but remained oblivious to the situation he was in. The player then stated that he was only using the PDF while he awaited delivery of his PHB from Amazon.
I do not object to his ordering fom Amazon but loudly boasting of that fact while at a store organized play event left me speechless. In total this was one of the greatest displays of a lack of tact and diplomacy I have ever witnessed during encounters.
Galahad67 wrote:
Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:
I think it would be courteous, polite and respectful for on-going encounters players to pick up a PHB from the venue. But not for someone trying out the game as a taster.
The described type of player is much more likely to be asked by me if they wanted to join in and play other games and ongoing campaigns outside of AL, and I'm sure that's true of my fellow GMs.
It's an expensive hobby. Anyone is welcome to borrow my PHB. When I DM or anyone in my group DM's we are happy to help out a person without a book. At $50.00 for a book that is alot for a kid or college student, or even young adult just entering the work force. I just want a person that is willing to play and is fun to play with.
As an Encounters DM at the local FLGS, I try to encourage my players to purchase thier own PHB, dice, a mini, etc. However, I have my copy of the PHB, and a couple of prints of the basic rules that I share at the table for those that don't have a copy of thier own, In addition our store actually allows players to borrow books off the shelves during game time for those that maybe can't afford to buy one. Both the store and myself are trying to do our part to grow the hobby by encouraging participation and not limiting some due to thier not having access tp thier own personal copy of the PHB.
i think this is a very good topic, esp considering the differences between the PHB and Basic rules.
My opinion on the matter:
WotC produced a free product to allow people to play that can't afford the PHB price. They don't want cost to exclude people. Everything about 5e is centered around inclusiveness. That said, they are not going to give their game away either and it's foolish to expect them to. As players, we want them to be profitable. If they profit, we profit from that as well as our hobby strengthens.
When a character jonis the table, if they have a PHB, they can play whatever race/class they wish and use all of the character options such as feats. If not, they are restricted to the PDF options. I have a hard copy of the PDF I provide at my table for use, so they always have access to it. This policy allows everyone to play and also provides incentive to eventually purchase a copy, but prevents people from freeloading and holding up a game expecting the DM to provide their materials. I also, expect players to bring dice and a pencil. If they forget those, I can provide a loaner, but only as an exception. Same goes for books. If they own a copy of the PHB, but just forgot it, then that's fine, but the presedent is established at the start of the game based on ownership.
As organizers, and if you are a DM you are an organizer of sorts, we need to positively encourage ownership as a goal. If they are truley interested in the game, then ownership is a goal they will be interested in. If they were playing MtG, they might borrow a deck a few times when they are just starting, but if they are truley interested, you can bet that it won't be long before they get their own deck right? Why is this different? That would be like coming to a Magic tournament and asking the store owner to borrow the entry fee and a deck to play. We are talking about organized play here, not a home game. When you don't come prepared to play, you insult all the other players that have made the commitment. Again, we are not excluding anyone, just limit their play to the free content. The free content is solid stuff and is nothing to snub your nose at.
PhelixB wrote:
Prom wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
reddaemon wrote:
Nemo235 wrote:
[Edit: I don't know what's up with that sentence fragment at the beginning of the post. I can't seem to get rid of it.]
First, let me stipulate that a game store can implement any rules they like, and so long as they don't violate their contract with Wizards of the Coast, WotC is powerless to stop them. If a store owner required everyone to wear a purple hat in order to play, then the players would have to wear purple hats or not play. I get that.
Uthrac wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Pauper wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Let me weigh in on this again as the original point seems to have been lost. (I wrote the article that started this whole thread.)
We never said you have to own the PHB to play. We welcome everyone; no one gets turned away. New players can choose a pre-generated character, one from the starter set. If they want to make their own character we explain how to do that using the D&D Basic Rules which are available for free online. However, if they want to use materials not available in the Basic Rules (different class, race, background, equipment, spells) then we explain that they need to purchase the PHB.
Remember that the Basic Rules give you everything you need to play D&D. It's a complete rule set. The only difference between the Basic Rules and the PHB is that the PHB presents you with more options. I don't think it's unreasonable to reward the players who purchased the book by letting them play the advanced classes and races.
TL;DR - If you don't have a PHB you can absolutely play, you are just limited to the Basic Rules which have everything you need.
cave2626 wrote:
TheBreen wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Wait wait wait wait... Paizo, the company that made its name by essentialy reprinting the SRD then starting to expand on it later, insists on its DMs policing players to make sure they paid for what they use?
Does anyone seethe irony here?
TiaNadiezja wrote:
TiaNadiezja wrote:
shivafang wrote:
Pauper wrote:
None of the stores I've run across in Tacoma offer use of space for free... which makes my conscience much better at ease for buying from Amazon.
I bought my PHB at a local shop, and might do the same with the MM to get it early, but the fact that I'm paying for space makes me feel no obligation to do so - now the stores are in competition with Amazon for convenience vs. price.
TiaNadiezja wrote:
Pauper wrote:
I'm totally with the idea that a person should have access to the rules governing his character. I don't think requiring him or her to lug around a PHB is really the best idea, though.
I'd be cool with photocopies of relevant pages. I'm cool with handwritten spell descriptions. I'm cool with Spell Cards (there's another purchase for the store). I'm fine with electronic info, as long as it doesn't disrupt the game I think that, as long as the player in question can provide the relevant info to the GM, then it's all good.
That said, each store has the right to place whatever restrictions or requirements they want on organized play and use of store space, and each player has the right to question such restrictions, especially if they are known paying customers.
If the Lone Star where I played (and people knew me from regular visits) required me to carry around a PHB to play a Warlock, I'd do so (as I already have one), but I'd also go buy my $25 a week in comics and games elsewhere.
Pauper wrote:
I'm firmly in the camp of needing to be inclusive, not exclusive of players. This hobby is not going to grow based around people shutting others out with a barrier to entry. Some of this has already been said, and possibly said better, but I feel quite strongly about it.
I got back into the hobby because my roommates were playing, and I played for a long time out of other peoples books, because getting all the books at the time gets costly. However, by getting involved in the hobby, I craved my own copies, and now I own them. However, if I was told that to play this really cool character idea I had, I'd need to spend 50/100/200 dollars on books for all the pieces to build it...I'd be sticking with my other hobbies.
You know what a lot of people hate? Free to play video games that suddenly ask you to pay up for anything cool...D&D is almost like that right now with how some people in this thread are treating it. It doesn't need to be that way...someone will likely own a copy of the books at the table, they can get passed around, people can write their stuff out and they can play. If you need 5 copies of the phb at a table to look something up quickly and avoid a ton of play slowdown, you really need to learn to use an index/ToC.
I picked up a loose mini on the weekend at a con, I talked a bit with the people at the booth, I grabbed a card since i'm somewhat interested in going out to see the store/do AL play at their store.
They don't charge to play for the space, they are running AL, they are doing everything to make it attractive and open to me to want to bring me in. That alone is enough to make me want to check it out, and i'll spend money of my own accord. I'll probably still pick through their mini's or grab another box, or a munchkin set, or some new dice because look at the colours on that one, I need those...I can always use more dice. If I go in with my full group of 7 (myself included), I likely wouldnt be the only one spending money. There are more ways to
A PHB required policy would be the quickest way to make us leave and never return though...Most of my group doesn't have a PHB since we wouldn't require it for home play, it seems absurd to have that many copies amongst us. We've played for years with 1-2 at the table.
Now, if you want to require it for your home group, fine, thats between you and your friends. Don't drag this into AL play.
I just spent a weekend at a con. I helped run Kryptgarden and played in a few games myself. I saw a lot of people over the course of the weekend play D&D for their first time and we didn't charge extra or exclude anyone as long as there was a slot at the table for them to play...because thats part of how it should be.
reddaemon wrote:
Answer me this: You're a store owner, you have someone walk in off the street looking to join a game, perhaps a friend who helped him make a character with the PHB, one they may have even bought elsewhere even.
Do you turn him away because one is just getting into the hobby and hasn't paid their dues by investing chunks of cash into your particular store? They're automatically starting down the bad path by not paying up by your logic.
Or do you recognize that if you get this person in here on a regular basis, they might invest in the hobby financially as they become invested with their time and emotionally?
If you need everyone to pay up to sit at the tables or think that they're a blight on your store, then you may as well charge for the tables and get it over with.
Pauper wrote:
Pauper wrote:
Coanward wrote:
So, I ran into this issue ... or a tangent to it ... at our game this past Wednesday ...
First - my official position is that the Free Rules are there to include everyone, and if you own a Player's Handbook, go ahead and use those rules whether or not you have the physical copy with you.
We had a player at the table who does not own a PH. He decided (weeks ago) to play a Dragonborn Paladin. Yep - nonstandard race AND class. Why is this a problem?
BECAUSE IT DRAGGED OUT THE GAME FOR THE REST OF US.
Since he was a "borrower," he was constantly borrowing other people's books to look up rules. He had no idea how his race or class features work, because he couldn't research/prepare his character for a game without a book. The time drag was devestating.
So ... word to the wise ... it's not just about whether someone has the book at the table. Whether or not they have regular access to the rules impacts their ability to play their character efficiently (which, in Encounters, means not taking 5-10 minutes to look up rules every time your turn comes around).
Uthrac wrote:
I'm a "database guy," so when the basic rules came out the first thing I did was to build a character generation system with them. It was a lot of typing—and much, much more when the PHB came out—but my character sheets have their racial and class traits (e.g., Darkvision) skills (e.g. Artisan's tools) and languages listed and described, and a "spellbook" page or two that lists the descriptions of the spells they know.
This has already saved me a fair bit of time at the gaming table, and although I had it with me, I haven't had to pull out my Player's Handbook once yet. It's good to have good notes.
(Yeah, I could do all this with a pencil, but then I'd be a "pencil guy" and not a "database guy." 
)
TheBreen wrote:
I'm a pirate, and even I can't imagine the sheer unmitigated gall it would take to bring a pirated copy of a game into a store that sells the game, and expect to be able to use it.
I'm in the camp that says that if you want to use rules at my table, you need to have a copy of those rules I can access. If you can't bring the book, bring copies of the relevant pages. But if you're playing in a league supported by the company that produces the books, in a venue operated by a company that sells the books, you need to be supporting both companies. That's just basic ethics and common sense.
Oh, and before anyone asks-- I buy what I can afford, and I don't buy used unless something is out-of-print. If I truly enjoy a game, I'm not going to be satisfied until I've found a way to kick some money to the people that produced it. That's not ethics, that's economics; games that don't sell don't get produced.
reddaemon wrote: